Official Character Competitive Impressions - Tourneys, Tiers, Theories, Tactics

[Ffamran]

I think ya'll should be talking about Cloud's on-stage presence more, imo. The object of the game is to get people off of the stage first. Yes, Cloud's recovery is bad. We get it. What about everything else about his kit, though? Y'know, the stuff that offsets the stuff that gets him off of the stage and into a blastzone?

Smooth Criminal

Cloud might be the Melee Falco of Smash 4 a powerful character on-stage, but weak off-stage. Smash 4 Falco still has some traces of this, but picked up Melee Fox's gimping capabilities and Little Mac is more of an anti-thesis or a counterpart to Jigglypuff where he excels at ground comabt to Jiggles's aerial combat. Unlike Cloud, Little Mac's aerials aren't amazing and doesn't allow him the full potential of being incrediby strong on-stage as Little Mac excels strictly on ground combat and not all-around on-stage.

 

[Radical Larry]

Salty Lord
Salty Lord
Link kills Cloud all day.
Oh what fun it is to kill.
Someone with a bad recovery.

Salty Lord
Salty Lord
Sheik ran Cloud away.
Oh what fun it is to kill.
Someone with a bad moveset yay.

Salty Lord
Salty Lord
Kong leads Cloud astray.
Oh what fun it is to kill.
Someone who can be gimped all day.

Salty Lord
Salty Lord
Fox mocks Cloud anyway.
Oh what fun it is to kill.
Someone who's bad Onliiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiine!

------------------------------
In the spirit of Christmas, that was a song created by me to celebrate our gift of Cloud!

There is truth in this post however. Despite this being a clear joke by me, there's a little bit of legitimacy to this. You have to admit, it's pretty clever.

 

[Nobie]

Merry Christmas! What does Santa have for us?

Well, Abadango just mentioned on stream that he might be using Mewtwo at Genesis 3!

 

[Sonicninja115]

Merry Christmas! What does Santa have for us?

Well, Abadango just mentioned on stream that he might be using Mewtwo at Genesis 3!

That would be legendary!

 

[Luco]

Merry Christmas peepz! I have something I'd really like to say about the rage topic.

Okay, so... Rage is different to any regular old 'comeback mechanic', and I think rage in this game is particularly interesting because it selectively benefits certain characters.

To blanket statement and say 'comeback mechanics in general are bad' is kind of lame. Does rage REALLY benefit Jiggs? Maybe, but I sure as hell don't believe for a second that she was intended to use it (or that it actually does help her) more than Bowser, Ganny, etc. Rage also really helps characters with more consistent kill confirms like Ness and Charizard.

In essence, rage isn't really a 'comeback mechanic'. It's more than that. It's designed to help a particular character archetype, to aid a particular playstyle or to just be another tool for certain characters to use.

As it so happens, some characters have good enough frame data to usually win neutral outright enough so that they'll live longer anyway. It's a shame that Sheik can live so long when she really shouldn't, but that's game balance for you and a case where the mechanic happened to benefit the wrong character. As a general rule though, I don't actually have a problem with rage. Call me controversial and crazy, but in the reality where fast / weak (or fast / strong god forbid) tends to rule the meta, I actually think the idea is pretty good.



Now, on the topic of WFT, I dunno. John#s, Waveguider and so on do a lot of work with the character. Does anyone remember the days we considered her a contender for worst character in the game? A few balance patches later and a lot of work from these guys and now we're talking upper mid, which I think is a pretty massive shift in and of itself. Also, I don't remember who said about how we tend to base our tier lists around NA results but I made a post recently about how that change should and is changing (as smash gets more streamlined), and I don't think it's wrong to include other countries' results in your line of thinking.

Though it's a valid discussion as to how comparitively good the Aussie scene really is. I haven't played in my scene for ages, but I did go and verse smashers in the UK and felt like our scenes were roughly similar in power. The question is, how does the EU stack up to the US? We may have a good chance to check some of these 'power levels' out with Ghostbone at genesis (no pressure though mate :D ). Traditionally Australia's always gotten left behind in the meta, but I'm starting to think (/hope?) that could be changing this time around. That could also mean a lot for characters that do well in our scene and how people talk about their viability.

 

[Yonder]

Merry Christmas! What does Santa have for us?

Well, Abadango just mentioned on stream that he might be using Mewtwo at Genesis 3!

Little did we know, he meant only for friendlies warmup matches before the actual serious Genesis 3 games!

Just kidding, I hope he actually whips him out like Nairo did with Doc at the last large tourney (keep forgetting if its called Apex or Evo. For shame). M2 can actually be a fantastic pocket like Doc in the right matchups.

 

[Mario766]

It was MLG.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

Man the way some Aussies raved about Wii Fit a while back you'd think it was more than one.

(To be fair I suspect that Wii Fit does more than Aerolink's Palutena but what do I know)

There's two good ones. That's a lot for a character that was long perceived as low tier.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Fox doesn't even come close to 'obliterating' Cloud. If Fox actually wins the matchup it's probably a very slight advantage. Though I think it's just even.

I can see Cloud doing Mario like things to Fox, getting massive reward on up tilts and up airs, and easily getting FT kill confirms due to his fast fall speed.

Mario doesn't actually do a whole lot against Fox. Sure, he gets like 0-80% combos or some **** but past that Mario really hasn't much going for him against a character with better dph, KO power, kill set ups, equal range and equal frame data. Fox will probably get stuck in some dumb combo at low % but he can afford it somewhat reasonably. As long as he plays a somewhat more conservative version if his textbook play he can just pile on the percent back onto Mario and kill him at ~110ish %. Mario doesn't actually have any kill confirms or even setups against Fox after he gets him past the general percentages for combos.

Mario in general only really excells when he gets a stocklead. But he's also kind of srewed once he's behind in stocks imo. Doc's the one who gives Fox a hard time.

 

[Ghostbone]

WFT has literally one

count it, one

Player in Australia that does really well with her.

Just cos Waveguider's the only player that mains her and places top 5 in nationals, doesn't mean other players in Aus don't have really good wii fits (myself and Jaice come to mind) that just don't play the character in tournament because lol top tiers are better who would have guessed.
She has a lot of really strong tools, and especially after her buffs the blindspots in her gameplay are far smaller.

Also Aus is super small, we literally only have 1 good player at most of every character besides Diddy lmao.

Referring back to my post here, also shameless plug, top 20 ~= top 34% of the cast. Let's call it an even third. So WFT is better than 2/3rds of the cast? I find that a bit hard to believe, if I'm being honest.

And yes, I think she's in the top 3rd.

 

[Peppermint1201]

I can see why Aba may be pulling out Mewtwo at Genesis, from my understanding Japan has a better opinion of Mewtwo than the western world. They have a strong player named M2_KENTO, and strangely enough there is a ROB/Pac-Man main from Japan named Ginko who has a Mewtwo in his pocket for the Villager matchup.

 

[Y2Kay]

Zoners in general are more common in Japan it seems. are valued more there, so an anti zoner like would seem more relevant as a result

 

[Smog Frog]

what do they think of then? he's both a zoner AND an anti zoner.

 

[MistressRemilia]

what do they think of then? he's both a zoner AND an anti zoner.

Ignored & considered to be a low tier who doesn't have much to offer.
This leads into one of the points i'd like to argue:
Lucas is one of the most overrated characters around in US/EU and even with what happened to him, will struggle to get any higher than Middle Tier in my opinion. I always kind of hated how, even before that patch, some people constantly places Lucas in a very high spot out of nowhere ( which kind of fits him haha , remind you of the trailer ), praising his advantages ( that i'm not denying ) , but like, at the same time, he's really not the best when you go deeper into the characters:
- Matchups are most definitly not those of a High Tier character, when you take a look at how Lucas does, a vast majority wins vs the character, which both reduces his possible utility, and his main-able ability.
- The lack of representation is a big issue: In this game, about the 1/Best 3rd of this game has at least someone representing them in a important country, and getting decent enough result in big enough tours, or even majors. Lucas doesn't have that, at all. Even like, almost every character except some bottoms & obscure charas got their chance to shine as secondaries/pick at least once, Lucas really doesn't have that either.

Overall, i'd just like people to take a deep breath ( ) and realize that Lucas AS OF RIGHT NOW probably isn't on par with the likes of Mid Tier characters ( Thoughts differ, so i won't list characters )
You may think he has potential to grow stronger, that's fine.
But i'll say this, and this applies to all characters that have " potential " :

Given the high amount of characters that have proven their viability over the months, you shouldn't place the character with high potential, yet lackluster result too high.

 

[Luco]

It's also worth mentioning that like 1/4th of contributing posters here are Australian.

Little did you know we came here to invade your thread with kangaroos and WFTs.

Lucas got better with the patch, but it's increasingly clear to me that his strengths got better while his weaknesses didn't really get fixed. You can't really play any more grab spammy with him than before, it just happens to be slightly safer if you whiff (it turns out that frame reduction was pretty small, actually, although it looks a lot like Brawl pivot grab hey?)

Nair was probably the biggest buff actually. I have a small inkling but I'd like to test if falling Nair (looping hits) ---> Utilt / other stuff is a true combo now or safe on shield, that kind of thing. But yeah, I'm hesitant to say if Lucas is really a low tier (like his zoning and combos are really bloody strong and usually enough to keep him up in most MUs resulting in a decent-ish spread), but he's probably not in the top half of the roster, and I think we understand by now from ParanoidDrone's data that even being top half isn't exactly the most amazing feat.

 

[Browny]

No one should take notice of this post, I'm just putting it out there while we wait for the 4BR or whatever they call themselves to give us something to complain about and because I'm bored late at night.

Spoiler

NOT ORDERED WITHIN GOODNESS GROUPS

Too good
Very good
Good
Kinda good
Not very good
Not even going to bother trying to place accurately

 

[Emblem Lord]

Cloud might be the Melee Falco of Smash 4 a powerful character on-stage, but weak off-stage. Smash 4 Falco still has some traces of this, but picked up Melee Fox's gimping capabilities and Little Mac is more of an anti-thesis or a counterpart to Jigglypuff where he excels at ground comabt to Jiggles aerial combat. Unlike Cloud, Little Mac's aerials aren't amazing and doesn't allow him the full potential of being incrediby strong on-stage as Little Mac excels strictly on ground combat and not all-around on-stage.

......

I feel like I have betrayed everything I ever stood for in my entire life.

Feel like I need to commit seppuku to reclaim my honor or sum ****.

 

[Nobie]

As we've talked about, giving a character weaknesses is important for variety of gameplay and for making each character distinct from the other. Obviously there's a great deal of gray area in all of this, so that's not saying a character's weaknesses shouldn't ever be mitigated through a patch, but just that you don't say, "Well let's give Little Mac a better recovery!" Obviously that fixes an issue, but that's all it does. It doesn't make for more interesting gameplay.

That all being said, I think one of the recurring issues is that the speedy characters don't have enough of a disadvantage state. Yeah, they get blown away more easily, but we all know that's only a small piece of the puzzle. Like let's take Sheik for example. Sheik is supposed to be an agile character that's difficult to pin down, but I feel like her insane neutral wouldn't be quite so bad if she weren't so good at getting away when she's in trouble. If Sheik could run circles around you but suffer immensely once you got that first hit in, it might feel better to both use and fight her. As a Sheik, you still have all that mobility on your side, and you can still fair your way to victory, but you have to be careful about letting your ultra stable safe style slip at even a moment's notice.

Essentially, fast characters should be a bit easier to combo, heavier characters less easy to combo.

Edit: I actually forgot why I wanted to make this post in the first place, which is to discuss Cloud and more broadly the question of how your character does against another (for Kirby).

People are too eager to say whether their character "wins" against another. It seems like everyone wants to have the edge. For Cloud specifically, I feel like if you can contend with him in neutral he won't be too awful a matchup. Edgeguarding him is the icing on the cake.

Actually, how is Kirby against Cloud? I can't see that matchup being anything but bad news.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

@ Wii Fit trainer being top 20

I don't see it. We have Sheik, ZSS, Rosalina, Ryu, Sonic, Diddy, Fox, Mario, MK, Pikachu, ROB, Captain Falcon, Villager, Pit, Dark Pit, Ness, Olimar, Luigi, Mega Man, Greninja, Peach, Ike, Pac Man, and Yoshi all with claims to top 20. That's 24 right there and they are all pretty reasonable. Almost every single one of those characters has had at least a top 16 showing at a national/international in the US multiple times, and a large number of them at least one top 8. (I want to say all of them have been top 16 multiple times, only not 100% sure on Yoshi and Pit but I think they have).

After that we have Cloud (who will most likely end up in the 15-20 range imo), Toon Link, and DK all with some people arguing for their inclusion and some of them also having a top 16 at least in a national/international. Wii Fit falls into this general range imo: they've juuuust reached that top 16 range before in the US at that level of tournament play, but pretty rarely. The on paper stuff doesn't justify Wii Fit being over anyone I mentioned in the first list except maybe Luigi and Yoshi. And I mean, I could throw G&W into that second list as well, they've done it at least once.

So Wii Fit is most likely in the 25-30 range.

 

[Yikarur]

Heavy Characters are sadly designed to be combo'd easier. All "fatties" have the worst and slowest airdodge

 

[thehard]

Essentially, fast characters should be a bit easier to combo, heavier characters less easy to combo.

I believe weight-based knockback actually does this (less hitstun the heavier the victim), but I personally feel it should be more widespread.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

@ Wii Fit trainer being top 20

I don't see it. We have Sheik, ZSS, Rosalina, Ryu, Sonic, Diddy, Fox, Mario, MK, Pikachu, ROB, Captain Falcon, Villager, Pit, Dark Pit, Ness, Olimar, Luigi, Mega Man, Greninja, Peach, Ike, Pac Man, and Yoshi all with claims to top 20.

It's interested to see so many people taking Olimar being top 20 for granted. How come?

 

[SaltyKracka]

It's interested to see so many people taking Olimar being top 20 for granted. How come?

If I had to say, it's because his general gameplan hasn't changed any from Brawl. He's still got spammy harass at range, he's still got an amazing grab if you try to get close, he's still got incredibly strong disjointed smashes, and you can't even ledge hog him anymore.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

He's in the lower end of that top 20... but basically that ya. He's still fairly close to how he was in Brawl.

 

[Radical Larry]

@ Wii Fit trainer being top 20

I don't see it. We have Sheik, ZSS, Rosalina, Ryu, Sonic, Diddy, Fox, Mario, MK, Pikachu, ROB, Captain Falcon, Villager, Pit, Dark Pit, Ness, Olimar, Luigi, Mega Man, Greninja, Peach, Ike, Pac Man, and Yoshi all with claims to top 20. That's 24 right there and they are all pretty reasonable. Almost every single one of those characters has had at least a top 16 showing at a national/international in the US multiple times, and a large number of them at least one top 8. (I want to say all of them have been top 16 multiple times, only not 100% sure on Yoshi and Pit but I think they have).

After that we have Cloud (who will most likely end up in the 15-20 range imo), Toon Link, and DK all with some people arguing for their inclusion and some of them also having a top 16 at least in a national/international. Wii Fit falls into this general range imo: they've juuuust reached that top 16 range before in the US at that level of tournament play, but pretty rarely. The on paper stuff doesn't justify Wii Fit being over anyone I mentioned in the first list except maybe Luigi and Yoshi. And I mean, I could throw G&W into that second list as well, they've done it at least once.

So Wii Fit is most likely in the 25-30 range.

Let's go to your second paragraph to conclude what's wrong.

At this point, Toon Link should NEVER be considered better than Link since Link has all the quips, plus superior KO power and shield pressuring capabilities. Link may have some heavy weight and faster falling speed, but Toon Link suffers from being very light and very floaty, yet oddly can be combo'd with ease; and let's not forget that even if Toon Link's grounded attacks are faster, they're much weaker in comparison to Link's. With the buffs that Link has received, I really don't see Toon Link being considered better than Link. I could see them at an even spot, maybe with Link higher, but nowhere where Link is below Toon Link.

Also, need I remind you of the Umebura NicoNico qualifiers tournament AND the Eclipse Norwegian national? Where a Link player made top 17 and 5 respectively? I'm pretty positive that, since these were recent tournaments and pretty large ones at that, it proves Link has very great tournament viability that's at least unlocked in Europe.

Also, I don't believe Cloud can ever go above Link, because Cloud is just gimp food against Link. All Link needs to do against Cloud is get Cloud off stage and N-Air him around the 30% to 40% ranges. That's it, Cloud's done, he won't recover. Link is one of Cloud's apparent and obvious counters in this game since Link has faster attacks with superior power, a combo game that Cloud would want but doesn't have, a recovery, better projectiles and the ability to punish and challenge most, if not all of Cloud's attacks. Cloud's N-Air can aid him, but when Link can pull out an almost equally as fast N-Air (which reasonably would hit Cloud before Cloud's sword could connect to Link in the direct front), Link can beat even that. Cloud does have the superior mobility, but Link has superior jumping and survivability.

Cloud is honestly around the 24-28 ranges, at least, but always behind Link and possibly even Toon Link.

Now I don't have much to say about Wii Fit Trainer being top 20, but she's more along the lines of a top 30 type of character, tied with DK's position as a character. I believe she could be around the 21st to 23rd spot, or at least tied with DK at it.

 

[Nu~]

Also, I don't believe Cloud can ever go above Link, because Cloud is just gimp food against Link. All Link needs to do against Cloud is get Cloud off stage and N-Air him around the 30% to 40% ranges. That's it, Cloud's done, he won't recover. Link is one of Cloud's apparent and obvious counters in this game since Link has faster attacks with superior power, a combo game that Cloud would want but doesn't have, a recovery, better projectiles and the ability to punish and challenge most, if not all of Cloud's attacks. Cloud's N-Air can aid him, but when Link can pull out an almost equally as fast N-Air (which reasonably would hit Cloud before Cloud's sword could connect to Link in the direct front), Link can beat even that. Cloud does have the superior mobility, but Link has superior jumping and survivability.

Cloud is honestly around the 24-28 ranges, at least, but always behind Link and possibly even Toon Link.

Sooooo...
Cloud can't be better than link because link can gimp him?

First, who can't gimp cloud?
And second, losing to link offstage doesn't correspond with having a lower tier position than him. You can lose to characters lower than you on the tier list and still be higher than them overall. Like Ryu and mega man. And even then, I'm pretty sure cloud doesn't lose to link for those reasons you stated. That's an awfully shallow view of the matchup.

There are other logical inconsistencies in your post but I'll leave the bait to another poster.

 

[Routa]

Everyone... Try to control yourselves. It is Christmas.... So please... I know some of us are very trigger happy... But still... Try to contain yourselves.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

I don't know.

If you ever played against a really good Olimar in Brawl you'd know how frightening his damage output and KO power was. Smash 4 Olmar has NOTHING on that tbph. Perhaps summoning the one and only @Dabuz can help us shedding some light on that issue?

 

[FullMoon]

I remember seeing a tweet from Dabuz answering a guy asking for tips for playing Olimar and all he said was "Spam F-Smash a lot"

Online Olimar in a nutshell lol

 

[MajorMajora]

Heavies aren't supposed to be playable at the highest level, necessarily. As skill increases, heavies become increasingly worse due to a number of factors. Frame data becomes more important, combos are more common, etc..

But at the casual level these effects aren't in play at all, so heavies are actually some of the strongest in the game. If they made them too much stronger, it could have negative effects on other players.

Pretty much we should stop expecting heavies to be viable, since they are designed specifically not to be as you get to the highest levels of play. Maybe n a customs on meta they could get some extra tools that give them more depth, but even then it's a stretch. Not to mention we aren't in a customs on meta.

 

[|RK|]

As we've talked about, giving a character weaknesses is important for variety of gameplay and for making each character distinct from the other. Obviously there's a great deal of gray area in all of this, so that's not saying a character's weaknesses shouldn't ever be mitigated through a patch, but just that you don't say, "Well let's give Little Mac a better recovery!" Obviously that fixes an issue, but that's all it does. It doesn't make for more interesting gameplay.

That all being said, I think one of the recurring issues is that the speedy characters don't have enough of a disadvantage state. Yeah, they get blown away more easily, but we all know that's only a small piece of the puzzle. Like let's take Sheik for example. Sheik is supposed to be an agile character that's difficult to pin down, but I feel like her insane neutral wouldn't be quite so bad if she weren't so good at getting away when she's in trouble. If Sheik could run circles around you but suffer immensely once you got that first hit in, it might feel better to both use and fight her. As a Sheik, you still have all that mobility on your side, and you can still fair your way to victory, but you have to be careful about letting your ultra stable safe style slip at even a moment's notice.

Essentially, fast characters should be a bit easier to combo, heavier characters less easy to combo.

Edit: I actually forgot why I wanted to make this post in the first place, which is to discuss Cloud and more broadly the question of how your character does against another (for Kirby).

People are too eager to say whether their character "wins" against another. It seems like everyone wants to have the edge. For Cloud specifically, I feel like if you can contend with him in neutral he won't be too awful a matchup. Edgeguarding him is the icing on the cake.

Actually, how is Kirby against Cloud? I can't see that matchup being anything but bad news.

I haven't gotten to play Cloud anywhere but FG, so I got nothing for you.

Though I take pride in the fact that I've forced every Cloud I've faced after Day 1 to switch back to their main.

If you want some theory-crafting, however:

No numbers. But Cloud seems to give Kirby the same trouble as any swordsman. He covers a huge area, he attacks quickly, and holy hell is he strong. If I had to make a guess, it's certainly in his favor. At the same time it doesn't seem extreme; Cloud doesn't have tools that push the matchup into Sonic-tier of bad for us. His fall speed makes him susceptible to some of our favorite combos, and he doesn't have a counter or anything, so that's great.

Our favorite thing is probably his recovery. Yes, he's great on stage. But if you manage to knock him offstage, it's relatively easy to finish him from there. Unless he has limit, but now he's just used his limit. Stone is an even better edgeguard than usual, because Cloud has one direction he's going in (unless he's level with the stage), and unless he drops super low, he's not snapping either.

His own Blade beam only helps to keep him offstage if you have it.

That's my rookie analysis... if Reserved and/or Emblem Lord would like to correct anything, please feel free!

----
Now, about the counterintuitive stuff...

On FG, when the occasional Cloud charges Limit in neutral at the very start... I let them. Someone can tell me if this is silly or not, but my thought process is this - they're going to get limit one way or another. I'm playing as a character that is just awful at approaching, so why bother? See, with full limit, they're not going to kill me at 0. That's opposed to letting them get it naturally during the match, where chances are I now have to play 100% on their terms, to avoid a really early death. Plus, if I can get them to waste limit early, even better.

Finally, he falls faster - low percent combos ahoy if I get the first grab.

/super theorycraft

 

[Emblem Lord]

*Knowledge bomb drop*

There is no such thing as wasting limit.

He can just charge again.

*drops mic*

 

[ParanoidDrone]

DK and Bowser show that there are ways of buffing heavies without wrecking casual play, namely by giving them hoo-hahs. I think it's actually a bit clever, since throw followups are definitely not something a casual player would generally bother with.

 

[Smog Frog]

heavies could be decent, if was patched out of the game. oh, and if they all had ez kill setups from 60-70% onward, from grabs or otherwise.

 

[Routa]

Why do people pretty much never mention Ike or Wario when talking about high tier heavies? They aren't super heavyweights, but still. Also doesn't ike have bearable MU against ZSS? Also having bad MU against ZSS isn't that uncommon in Sm4sh (yeah yeah heavies vs ZSS is very one sided, but meh).

 

[|RK|]

*Knowledge bomb drop*

There is no such thing as wasting limit.

He can just charge again.

*drops mic*

That's 100% true. The idea is more that he's used it at a worse time than he could have, which is better for me. Not a waste, per-se... but I'd rather be hit by limit side-b at 0 than 70+. Alternatively, I'd rather he uses limit to recover 30 seconds to a minute into the match than hit me at all. Then we've both done more damage, but his chance to super-one shot me will take more time. IMO.

Is that silly?

 

[MajorMajora]

DK and Bowser show that there are ways of buffing heavies without wrecking casual play, namely by giving them hoo-hahs. I think it's actually a bit clever, since throw followups are definitely not something a casual player would generally bother with.

Which helps them at a competitive level, but not at the highest level. I play competitively with friends and could pull off a hoo-hah, but that doesn't mean I would make it out of pools at a local. It doesn't solve the main problems that heavies have playing against Nairo's ZSS.

 

[MistressRemilia]

Why do people pretty much never mention Ike or Wario when talking about high tier heavies? They aren't super heavyweights, but still. Also doesn't ike have bearable MU against ZSS? Also having bad MU against ZSS isn't that uncommon in Sm4sh (yeah yeah heavies vs ZSS is very one sided, but meh).

Because when someone talk about Heavies, they usually mean Superheavies, which are:
Ganondorf, Bowser, Charizard, Donkey Kong & King Dedede.

 

[NachoOfCheese]

Why do people pretty much never mention Ike or Wario when talking about high tier heavies? They aren't super heavyweights, but still. Also doesn't ike have bearable MU against ZSS? Also having bad MU against ZSS isn't that uncommon in Sm4sh (yeah yeah heavies vs ZSS is very one sided, but meh).

Basically, they aren't the characters people think of when they say "heavies." Whether they are or arent doesn't matter (because lets face it, every time this comes up people spend 5 pages arguing about what a "heavy" is). Bottom line: they're gud, most people can agree on that.

 

[Fatmanonice]

Wii Fit suffers from the same problem as DK and Peach, almost no one plays as them seriously and they have maybe one or two top players to actually reference. I think TKbreezy got burned out on Wii Fit so I can't even think of any serious Wii Fit players aside from Anti's pocket Wii Fit that has gone toe to toe with the likes of Ally and Zero. Wii Fit's buffs earlier this year were a huge help and it corrected all her biggest weaknesses. Now a days, the character is very balanced and doesn't have any glaring weaknesses but she doesn't really beat out anyone either. Most of her match ups are doable and there's not really anyone I can think of that absolutely shuts her down (though I would argue Ryu and Metaknight are pretty rough). Per usual, I'm going to argue that the character is underdeveloped and will probably be one of those characters like Peach, DK, and Lucario who will be in this awkward position for the duration of the metagame unless they get more buffs down the line.