Official Character Competitive Impressions - Tourneys, Tiers, Theories, Tactics

[Smog Frog]

they exploit each other really badly. is a natural born killer and it's not uncommon for him to end stock at 80% because she's so goddamn light. he also blows up her linear and vulnerable recovery(which is easy to get her to use, since his throws are good at getting her offstage). has the easiest time out of the cast exploiting his vulnerable recovery and doesn't have much trouble getting him to that position. overall it's easier for her to exploit him than the other way around but it's definitely still there for him and makes the mu doable.

 

[Teshie U]

That's the thing though, Rosalina easily forces him to approach. Gravity pull sucks up his projectiles and even lays the metal blade at her feet to use. Luma also gets in the way a lot and is an effective shield against usmash, fsmash, the lemons, crash bomb, and the sweet spot of bair. Get Luma out of there and it's easier but I feel like a good portion of the match up is centered around killing Luma as fast as possible and then using the respawn time as best as you can because Luma nullifies a lot of options.


I'd argue otherwise because I feel any good Ness gets stopped dead in their tracks in major tournaments by competent Rosalina's and it's just painful to watch. The crowd will be losing their minds supporting the Ness players while the Rosalina player is being actively booed because it's almost become a cliche that you know how it's going to end when you see this match up come up.

Everyone wants to kill Luma before engaging ideally. Gravitational Pull is a stalemate at best and megaman's projectiles are so low on lag that you will get grabbed/dash attacked half the time when you throw it out. Rosalina isn't super easy to hit, but Megaman relentlessly spamming her at mid range will eventually kill luma (metal blade and crash bomb harass luma and rosa) or force a gravitation pull which gets Rosa into the air where gravitational pull becomes even less safe.

 

[Luigi player]

I don't feel like any character shuts down more characters than Sheik.
Imo her fair and needles alone are reasons enough some can't approach her even though they're forced to and get combo'd for their life.

You basically have to risk a lot against Sheik by rolling around and if you get caught in a retreating fair that scouts for rolls you're in a lot of pain. That's what it feels like to me for many characters against Sheik.

Against Diddy or ZSS I always have the feeling "at least I had the chance to do something by doing this and that better". ZSS has immense punishes, but she has to get you first, even if she is quite safe. You actually have a neutral against her. Diddy and also Fox are really quick and you have to know when you can release shield against them to not get combo'd. You always have to watch out for Diddys sideB grab and be really careful, but to me it still feels more possible to overcome.
Pikachu has great combos and quick attack is really fast to hit with in neutral (and super annoying), but otherwise it feels well possible to combat him.
With Sheik it kinda feels like you're always at a disadvantage since you're force to approaoch because reacting to needles is impossible and if you do appraoch Sheik has much better options with her fair (too safe and soo hard to even trade with) and dashgrab (SO FAST) which can both grant her great % punishes and put you into a bad position where she can followup / you have to land.
To combat her some characters have good means that can set up walls that force her to play her neutral in a certain way because otherwise she gets hit (some projectiles). It's interesting to me that Wii Fit Trainer actually has neutralB and sideB to force combat and win trades with needles and downB to avoid juggles, and both neutralB and downB to heal if you decide to platformcamp so Sheik has to appraoch. And WFT also isn't terrible on the ledge so even if she gets combo'd there she isn't in an absolute terrible spot.

I think a lot of people still don't know how to fight against Rosalina properly, but of course Dabuz' placings show that she can be a real threat and there are others too here and there that get nice results with her so I still see her as top 5 atm. I don't feel like she shuts down so many characters. Luma can be dealt with somewhat. Though it was like that in the 3ds days.

 

[Dre89]

Duck Hunt hasn't been considered good for a long time, probably since at least the spring. The character has slowly become the most special snowflake in the game, especially after Shulk and Robin's multiple buff dumps in the past year. The character suffers from several big problems: a slow recovery, almost no reliable kill options and the ones he does have are awkward as hell, few close combat options, and terrible landing options. When the game first came out, he was the King of Projectiles but then people caught onto the basic strategies and whittled away at them. Villager, Megaman, ROB, and even Lucas have more effective camping strategies, better rewards for constant shielders, and aren't at a huge loss if their projectiles fall through for most match ups. For example, I'd argue that Villager can switch gears against Rosalina but Duck Hunt can't as well especially if she gets close. Customs getting banned was another thing that really hurt Duck Hunt too. As for the Japanese, some characters are just more effective there due to different playstyles. Duck Hunt, Dedede, Pit, and Villager are almost entirely different characters overthere because of this but I'd still argue that Duck Hunt is far from viable on his own worldwide.

I've never understood what Duck Hunt was meant to have over other campers. The other campers aren't all equally good, but they at least all have something the others don't. Toon Link has bad frame data but good mobility. Villager trades mobility for frame data. Megaman is kind of heavy and can camp vertically. Link has good range and CQC options. Pac Man is highly versatile, the jack of all trades camper.

But I don't get what Duck Hunt was meant to have that the others don't. On the surface he just looks like a Toon Link with less mobility, worse vertical camping and worse killing potential.

 

[Fatmanonice]

I have a term to reference Ganon, Charizard, KD3, DK, and Bowser......giants.

Someone said that grab followups make them better, then why does Ganon not have one? If he did have a hell of a better time even with his absolutely booty grab distance.

Slightly but I feel something that helps heavy characters more is good landing options, something that Charizard, DK, Dedede, Bowser, Bowser Jr, and Ganon don't really have. Set up throws are nice but something that hurts all these characters is being juggled to oblivion or being baited into their crap landing options and then heavily punished. Compare this to other heavy characters:

- good fast fall nair, multiple super armor options, quick draw can be used to dodge attacks or recover high, a counter
- downward projectile, good fast fall nair, dair can bounce off shields
- downward projectile, leaf shield, dair that changes his air direction, quick recovery that acts like a high third jump
- downward projectile, recovery that can be an air stall or recover high, good fast fall nair/fair
-an air stall and air direction changer, super armor option, good fast fall nair, fair, and dair
- an air stall that can be used multiple times, good fast falled nair
- good fast falled nair/fair, bike allows him to block some attacks, escape in the air, and recover high, the waft and all its glory
- good fast falled nair, an air stall, super armor second jump

 

[Planty]

Rosalina vs Megaman is just flat out even match up. Crash bomber is dumb against Luma. Like really dumb. Metal blade also passes through Luma and hits Rosa. Her only answer to this is GP but like someone said before, people focus too much on "lol gp" and ignore the rest of the match up (although that guy was talking about Ness).

GP just creates a stalemate situation nearly all the time (except she can pick up the metal blades and throw them back, which is why MM should just spam crash bombers). In reality, sitting there holding down-b will just get you punished. Rosalina HAS to approach or else MM will just keep using crash bomber.

So Rosa tries to approach and... lemons. Lots of lemons shot over Luma because Rosalind is gigantic and can't really deal with them well.

MM just controls neutral overall. It's not a contest during that state of the game. However Rosalina can punish quite hard once she gets in and has an overall higher damage output and MUCH, MUCH better kill potential which brings it even.

- good fast fall nair, multiple super armor options, quick draw can be used to dodge attacks or recover high, a counter

Multiple super armor options would be... Those 3 frames on his up-b which should never be used as a landing option and a nearly full charge eruption which should never even happen when Ike is getting juggled. What am I missing?

 

[C0rvus]

On the topic of Rosalina versus Ness, I often hear that at top level, Rosa shuts out Ness completely. The results reflect this. But does it look worse than it should because of a skill gap? No offense, but Dabuz seems to straight up outclass Shaky as a player. FOW doesn't travel and is a wi-fi warrior. NAKAT would probably play Fox or Pika into Rosa, but I can't recall the two ever playing, though I'm certain they have.

Are other Rosalinas continuing the trend of shutting out Ness players? I wouldn't know.

 

[**Gilgamesh**]

is better then Wii Fit Trainer for sure.
holds competition for Wii Fit Trainer as well. While its certainly good that Wii Fit has a top player in Australia, we cannot gauge exactly how strong that region is compared to U.S. due to lack of people from that region. Mr.R for example has a strong grasp in Europe but when he comes to America ; he faces serious competition at top level where he loses to Ally, Nairo, MVD, ZeRo periodically.

Also random wins vs good players at locals doesn't exactly tell you if a character is good enough to compete at a nationas or majors. Majors / Nationals within themselves, also have different amount of significance as well depending on how stacked it is. Genesis 3 outweighs all Nationals thus far by a decent margin for smash 4 (with EVO maybe beating it) and even then EVO was customs so meh. So if anything really look at Genesis 3 data and sort out any bias to see a grander picture of viability for characters in the current Meta. Since viability derives from top level (competition at its current peak) stacked tournament otherwise you fall flat when a character can take locals / regionals but fails to appear at nationals / majors (aka pre-patch ). We also can't forget that a lot of characters simply doesn't have enough rep to accurately rate them either. We have to go off of the data and theory from what we have. This is why I can't explicitly state Wii Fit Trainer not being within the 16-23 range because there the data and Theory (in my case MU spreads) aren't strong enough for me to say that she isn't; rather that she faces stiff competition from others from the data and theory we have gathered for other characters.

 

[Nobie]

I've never understood what Duck Hunt was meant to have over other campers. The other campers aren't all equally good, but they at least all have something the others don't. Toon Link has bad frame data but good mobility. Villager trades mobility for frame data. Megaman is kind of heavy and can camp vertically. Link has good range and CQC options. Pac Man is highly versatile, the jack of all trades camper.

But I don't get what Duck Hunt was meant to have that the others don't. On the surface he just looks like a Toon Link with less mobility, worse vertical camping and worse killing potential.

I don't mean this as a criticism or anything, but almost every post I see from you starts with, "I think this character is bad because..."

Anyway, while I'm not going to say Duck Hunt is better than Villager or Mega Man or whatever (though with MM effectiveness probably changes a lot depending on the matchup), I'd say there are a few factors that go into how Duck Hunt is at least supposed to play.

Duck Hunt is pretty swift, and has the most normal set of non-special attacks out of all the zoning type characters. Mega Man has unorthodox pellets, Toon Link, Pac-Man, and VIllager have tether grabs, and so on. Duck Hunt is the one whose basic moveset is closest to the basic Smash archetype, which lets him do things the others can't. Not to mention, his pivot grab is absurdly good.

A while back, someone pointed out that Duck Hunt has the best spot dodge in the game. That has to count for something.

Other than that, I think what really sets Duck Hunt apart is the dynamic of the can. No other character has a tool even close to that. ROB has gyro, Diddy has banana, etc., but the stage presence that the can has just by sitting there is unlike any other projectile in the game. He's in many ways I think a more dedicated trapping character than any of the others because his projectiles all lean towards staying out for a very long time, blocking hits (all three can do that), and just making it a wonderland of obstacles. Basically, Duck Hunt's projectiles are meant to sit on the screen, and that's something you only kind of get with a few others.

 

[Wintermelon43]

is better then Wii Fit Trainer for sure.
holds competition for Wii Fit Trainer as well. While its certainly good that Wii Fit has a top player in Australia, we cannot gauge exactly how strong that region is compared to U.S. due to lack of people from that region. Mr.R for example has a strong grasp in Europe but when he comes to America ; he faces serious competition at top level where he loses to Ally, Nairo, MVD, ZeRo periodically.

Also random wins vs good players at locals doesn't exactly tell you if a character is good enough to compete at a nationas or majors. Majors / Nationals within themselves, also have different amount of significance as well depending on how stacked it is. Genesis 3 outweighs all Nationals thus far by a decent margin for smash 4 (with EVO maybe beating it) and even then EVO was customs so meh. So if anything really look at Genesis 3 data and sort out any bias to see a grander picture of viability for characters in the current Meta. Since viability derives from top level (competition at its current peak) stacked tournament otherwise you fall flat when a character can take locals / regionals but fails to appear at nationals / majors (aka pre-patch ). We also can't forget that a lot of characters simply doesn't have enough rep to accurately rate them either. We have to go off of the data and theory from what we have. This is why I can't explicitly state Wii Fit Trainer not being within the 16-23 range because there the data and Theory (in my case MU spreads) aren't strong enough for me to say that she isn't; rather that she faces stiff competition from others from the data and theory we have gathered for other characters.

And Pac-Man

 

[Fatmanonice]

Multiple super armor options would be... Those 3 frames on his up-b which should never be used as a landing option and a nearly full charge eruption which should never even happen when Ike is getting juggled. What am I missing?

Aether can get you out of juggles and it's not half bad for quick grabbing the ledge if you're lined up right. A charged eruption is okay in a pinch too. I'm not saying charge it from the top of the screen or use it all the time but if you're coming down and you know they're going to try to hit you from below, it's something you can do to mix things up. Of Ike's landing options though, nair's definitely his best option but it's easy to fall into the trap of it being the only one used.

 

[Planty]

I'm not saying charge it from the top of the screen or use it all the time but if you're coming down and you know they're going to try to hit you from below, it's something you can do to mix things up.

Doesn't eruption only have SArmor when it approaches a full charge?

 

[**Gilgamesh**]

I think a lot of people still don't know how to fight against Rosalina properly, but of course Dabuz' placings show that she can be a real threat and there are others too here and there that get nice results with her so I still see her as top 5 atm. I don't feel like she shuts down so many characters. Luma can be dealt with somewhat. Though it was like that in the 3ds days.

is considered to be worst MU and they all considered Top / high tiers while Seagull Joe believes worst MU is Rosalina and gives explanation. I mean Abadango did shut 6wx from getting Top 8 with his Rosalina o.o with a good performance. While the results aren't exactly there (to my knowledge) the theory does indicates it though. That's why she gets strong results and usually places right below really only losing to who both are positive vs Rosa (ZSS more so). She also shut out / has the advantage over many characters while beating other top tiers as well( potentially ) to a point where there she's often known to be their worst MU. Rosa just loses to more characters then Sheik (doesn't even lose to anyone) or ZSS and thus sits at 3rd IMO. Her design is just disgustingly effective vs the majority of the cast .

Edit: What was the design team was thinking on giving a character a puppet wall + a gravity projectile absorber + massive and strong aerials O.O? xD

Edit 2: OMG SHAYA has returned, I truly do enjoy your views of characters and the meta ;such rich knowledge.

 

[Mario766]

N-Air isn't very good for landing/falling

It takes way too long for the hitbox to cover any portion of Ike that could be threatened, aka bottom corners or directly below him and N-Air doesn't have the greatest range anyways.

Ike's best option for landing is a well timed double jump into a neutral reset, unless they misspace their juggle attempt and we can beat it with D-Air...unlikely.

If Ike's N-Air was more like Cloud's and was frame 5 it'd be much more useful for anti-juggles.

 

[Vyrnx]

Not to be rude but, "People don't know how to fight yet," was a statement that carried more weight eight months ago than it does now. It's not that people don't know how to fight her, they've had over a year to figure out. It's that she actually has the ability to put people in awful situations, and I don't think that this is gonna go away with time, because if that were the case, we would have seen that by now.

 

[Fatmanonice]

N-Air isn't very good for landing/falling

It takes way too long for the hitbox to cover any portion of Ike that could be threatened, aka bottom corners or directly below him and N-Air doesn't have the greatest range anyways.

Ike's best option for landing is a well timed double jump into a neutral reset, unless they misspace their juggle attempt and we can beat it with D-Air...unlikely.

If Ike's N-Air was more like Cloud's and was frame 5 it'd be much more useful for anti-juggles.

But it covers everything but an upper portion of his back and has hardly any landing lag plus, if it lands, it's easy to follow up with other attacks, especially his jab.

Doesn't eruption only have SArmor when it approaches a full charge?

I thought it had some whenever he brings the sword down?

 

[san.]

Ike's nair is usable, but only if you have the space to fully retreat. It will act as a wall to cover your landing, but it's not offensive in any way. You definitely don't want to use it as a simple anti-juggle, such as uair strings. Getting a reactionary fair (or even dair/bair if the positioning is there) while mixing up your horizontal momentum and smart use of double jump work better.

It's actually less difficult than expected to pressure some of the shorter range uair pressure with a reactionary dair based on when they jump/double jump.

 

[Mario766]

But it covers everything but an upper portion of his back and has hardly any landing lag plus, if it lands, it's easy to follow up with other attacks, especially his jab.



I thought it had some whenever he brings the sword down?

It also takes 13-14 frames for it to get to under him. Unless you mean like as a SH/FH option, which is entirely different.

Eruption had that in Brawl, Smash 4 you have to charge it to 3/4 full charge for it to have super armor on activation.

 

[Planty]

It's not really that people don't know how to fight Rosalina, but rather they often don't understand Luma mechanics beyond a very basic level, which leads to them getting caught off guard or even forfeiting opportunities to kill Luma or at least get around him.

 

[Luigi player]

is considered to be worst MU and they all considered Top / high tiers while Seagull Joe believes worst MU is Rosalina and gives explanation. I mean Abadango did shut 6wx from getting Top 8 with his Rosalina o.o with a good performance. While the results aren't exactly there (to my knowledge) the theory does indicates it though. That's why she gets strong results and usually places right below really only losing to who both are positive vs Rosa (ZSS more so). She also shut out / has the advantage over many characters while beating other top tiers as well( potentially ) to a point where there she's often known to be their worst MU. Rosa just loses to more characters then Sheik (doesn't even lose to anyone) or ZSS and thus sits at 3rd IMO. Her design is just disgustingly effective vs the majority of the cast .

Edit: What was the design team was thinking on giving a character a puppet wall + a gravity projectile absorber + massive and strong aerials O.O? xD

Edit 2: OMG SHAYA has returned, I truly do enjoy your views of characters and the meta ;such rich knowledge.

Even if she is the worst MU for these characters, I'd assume most of them are +1, with maybe Ness, Sonic and Villager (don't know anything about Villager vs Rosa) +2, both of which is still winable, though +2 could be considered "shut down" I guess, depending on how your view of the numbers is.

 

[**Gilgamesh**]

Even if she is the worst MU for these characters, I'd assume most of them are +1, with maybe Ness, Sonic and Villager (don't know anything about Villager vs Rosa) +2, both of which is still winable, though +2 could be considered "shut down" I guess, depending on how your view of the numbers is.

Rosa doesn't really shut out the perceived top / high tiers besides Ness. There worst MU just so happens to be against her.

 

[C0rvus]

Rosa also loses to and , or it's even enough to be an issue for her. Rosa is very polarizing; on her own she is easy to juggle and kill, but Luma is just a monster. It is nice to have a walling/zoning character among the top tiers, aside from all the fast rushdown characters.

 

[Fatmanonice]

Even if she is the worst MU for these characters, I'd assume most of them are +1, with maybe Ness, Sonic and Villager (don't know anything about Villager vs Rosa) +2, both of which is still winable, though +2 could be considered "shut down" I guess, depending on how your view of the numbers is.

For many high tier characters, she shuts down common options. For example, against Villager, ROB, and Pac-man, their camping and ledge options are nulled out. Against Mario and Ness, off stage and set up throw options are nulled out. For mid and low tier characters, it can be plain miserable fighting her. Bowser Jr is especially groan worthy because the Koopa Kart options are largely nulled out, the gravity pull gives her the mecha koopa if you dare to use it, her getting under you is bad news bears, etc and it makes for one of the worst match ups in the game.

"Rosa also loses to and , or it's even enough to be an issue for her. Rosa is very polarizing; on her own she is easy to juggle and kill, but Luma is just a monster. It is nice to have a walling/zoning character among the top tiers, aside from all the fast rushdown characters."

I feel like Wario and Ryu do okay too because they can overwhelm her if they get close and have ways to easily knock Luma away. With Wario, I know that Luma can extend and prolong the waft hitbox, making for a good kill set up. I think Little Mac would be alright too if he didn't get destroyed in the air and offstage like he does because, like them, he can close the gap easy and hit hard.

 

[Planty]

We're listing Rosalina's bad matchups? Okay. I'm not gonna explain these because I'm lazy but there's nothing particularly out of the ordinary, anyway. In no order:


Also possibly:

 

[Wintropy]

So, excuse me for shunting the discussion off-topic for a moment, but has Pit (and Dark Pit by extension) actually gone up in people's estimation?

Recent developments have definitely been kind to the angels: Dark Pit's side-b buff has put him on at least equal footing with Pit (he's no longer the objectively inferior choice), Nairo busted out Pittoo against Tweek's Cloud and didn't drop a single game (as the angel; ZSS, sadly, did not fare so well) and Earth even managed to beat Ranai in...that tourney, the name of which escapes me. It's been a long week and my brain hurts.

Now I'm seeing people putting them in the same "power ranking" as Mario and Diddy - and so I'm wondering if I've missed something big in my time away from this thread, or if the Pits' consistency in patches (only noticeable changes since release have been buffs, o-kay~!) and not-insignificant results in the past few weeks have been enough to get people to pay attention. If nothing else, Dark Pit's mouth-watering ability to get a kill confirm off a hard read is not something to be understated, it's definitely something the Pits needed and helps check off one of their biggest weaknesses.

I've always thought of Pit as a slow burner: he won't get results overnight, but consistency goes a long way in a meta that can change over the course of just one patch, and reflecting a player's fundamentals at the highest level of play is a reasonably respectable gameplan.

As you were~

 

[Dre89]

It's not really that people don't know how to fight Rosalina, but rather they often don't understand Luma mechanics beyond a very basic level, which leads to them getting caught off guard or even forfeiting opportunities to kill Luma or at least get around him.

It's more that there's very little you can do a lot of the time because of their range and priority. She passively vortexes characters into only a few viable options in neutral.

Many of her options are low-counterplay. When you're above her you know she's going to up air. There's just little room to outplay her because she can space it to beat out any attack, cover sideways DI and frame trap airdodges all at the same time. Likewise if you're offstage you know she'll dair you or fair/bair, but they beat so many options at once there's just often very little you can do except perfectly DI the hit that knocked you offstage in the first place.

 

[IsmaR]

Pit being seen as better is primarily due to Earth giving Ranai's Villager trouble during the niconico qualifiers.

Dark Pit is seen as all but completely superior at this point, even without Nairo's convincing performance backing it up.

-

If anyone's interested, Sumabato is actually about to start. Stream is on niconico only, though. http://live.nicovideo.jp/watch/lv245521256

 

[Luigi player]

Rosa doesn't really shut out the perceived top / high tiers besides Ness. There worst MU just so happens to be against her.

Alright, my point was that imo Sheik shuts down more, I know Rosa is a good character. :]

For many high tier characters, she shuts down common options. For example, against Villager, ROB, and Pac-man, their camping and ledge options are nulled out. Against Mario and Ness, off stage and set up throw options are nulled out. For mid and low tier characters, it can be plain miserable fighting her. Bowser Jr is especially groan worthy because the Koopa Kart options are largely nulled out, the gravity pull gives her the mecha koopa if you dare to use it, her getting under you is bad news bears, etc and it makes for one of the worst match ups in the game.

Definitely. Though Marios bthrow can get rid of Luma after which he can try to get some grab combos. Although she's pretty light so it probably doesn't work as well as against others. I'm not sure if these MUs are really worse than against Sheik. If your point is just that she shuts some down, then yeah I could see that.

Though many people still airdodge against her when in the air when they have lingering hitboxes on aerials.
That's one thing I found out which made me think less of her. As Mario or Luigi you can just nair to be safe from Luma uairs for example, which would be a real threat otherwise.

 

[Man Li Gi]

Probably because they think Flame Choke tech-chases are good enough.

In fact it's general trend that if you have at least decent range on your command grab, your normal one is short, like Robin and Mewtwo.

Yeah, but the thing with those two, they are disjointed and have a larger hotboxes and have a decent use outside of grab. Nosefratu has use to heal and be a powerful projectile. Confusion can combo and reflect and stalls. Flame Choke is a small hotbox that has tons of start up and end lag which is even techable. Even when he moves, he moves (with the attack) slow as molasses. Unlike Robin and M2, the move is kinda imperative to land for Ganon, so making it better would essentially make him a greater character. Hell, improving his other grab in Up B would also be imperative. Legit, they improve that and he goes from the abyss (he ain't bottom 5 but bottom 15 is more reasonable to put him, but that argument is for another time), to that guy every once in a while that shows out. That being said, I ain't asking for buffs in the slightest, but trying to show that the comparison isn't truly......correct outside saying that they are commons grabs.

 

[C0rvus]

Pit being seen as better is primarily due to Earth giving Ranai's Villager trouble during the niconico qualifiers.

Dark Pit is seen as all but completely superior at this point, even without Nairo's convincing performance backing it up.

-

If anyone's interested, Sumabato is actually about to start. Stream is on niconico only, though. http://live.nicovideo.jp/watch/lv245521256

Why though? Now he has one advantage over Pit. Pit still has better arrows and a stronger forward tilt. Is the new Electroshock Arm enough to make him clearly superior?

 

[MajorMajora]

Why though? Now he has one advantage over Pit. Pit still has better arrows and a stronger forward tilt. Is the new Electroshock Arm enough to make him clearly superior?

It's pretty good. Kills at like, 80 near the edge without rage.

 

[Wintropy]

Why though? Now he has one advantage over Pit. Pit still has better arrows and a stronger forward tilt. Is the new Electroshock Arm enough to make him clearly superior?

I'd previously believed that comparing the two Pits is like comparing two stones: one is slightly darker in tone than the other and one is a tiny bit smaller, but they're otherwise made of the exact same stuff.

Now it's more like comparing two stones of the same size, one of which is smoother and one of which is bumpier. Even if the first one is better for skimming on the water and the other is better for breaking windows, they're otherwise fundamentally the exact same as each-other.

Tortured imagery to one side, I don't think it's very important who's better. Both have their strengths (Pit's versatile arrows help out in a lot of small ways, Dark Pit's exceptionally strong side-b helps out in one very big way), but both otherwise function identically. There's a strong case to be made for Dark Pit being the better of the two now, whereas it was agreed to be the opposite prior to the Electroshock buff, but it's still no more than one spot at most.

Even then, it's missing the important detail, which is that Dark Pit is not an inferior Pit anymore.

And that's missing the really important detail, which is that both Pits continue to be viable even in the highest level of play.

 

[Nobie]

I was thinking about Cloud's forward smash and how it has kind of a unique weakness among f-smashes.

Cloud's f-smash is a 3-hit attack, the first move doing 3%, the second doing 6%, and the third doing 10%. This means that it's actually easier to clash with weaker attacks, or even overpower his f-smash with your own. For example, if I'm Mewtwo, I could try to use my jab when up close to cause him to recoil on the first hit, then punish accordingly. If I'm Bowser, I can just straight up beat it out with sheer superior damage.

I don't know if it's the biggest deal, and it also affects other smashes as well, but it might be something Clouds have to watch out for.

BTW: Gungnir's at this Sumabato!

 

[Planty]

It's more that there's very little you can do a lot of the time because of their range and priority. She passively vortexes characters into only a few viable options in neutral.

Many of her options are low-counterplay. When you're above her you know she's going to up air. There's just little room to outplay her because she can space it to beat out any attack, cover sideways DI and frame trap airdodges all at the same time. Likewise if you're offstage you know she'll dair you or fair/bair, but they beat so many options at once there's just often very little you can do except perfectly DI the hit that knocked you offstage in the first place.

I believe you may have misunderstood. Rosalina is a very good character in many ways. However, this has nothing to do with her juggling abilities or whatnot. I was replying to someone who said that people don't know how to fight Rosalina. I stated that it's not that people don't know how to fight her (poke at Luma until he's dead or kill him in some way, then move in. Aim projectiles over Luma. Abuse her numerous weaknesses. etc.) I said that people are not familiar with Luma's intricacies. I suppose this is the same as not knowing how to fight her, but it just feels like a whole new topic.

Cloud's f-smash is a 3-hit attack, the first move doing 3%, the second doing 6%, and the third doing 10%.

Nobie Very small correction; I do believe the second hit only does 2%.

 

[S_B]

Speaking of Duck Hunt, I think he is the second worst character in the game. He is just so underwhelming that I really wonder why they don't buff him. Like, his smashes don't connect properly, one of the worst recoveries in the game, mediocre projectiles and frame data, can' t kill in general, no kill throws, few combos...

I'm right there with you.

I don't play DH but I love to watch DH players on stream and I feel like the character's smash attacks should at LEAST always chain together...

People overrate Zero Suit Samus. She is a very good character, but saying she holds characters back when we have characters like Rosalina and Meta Knight who do so significantly more is silly. She also has counterplay.

Sheik is nonsense.

They're both nonsense, with Sheik being the worse of the two. Rosaluma is also nonsense, though not QUITE as bad.

Honestly the problem with Rosa is that not enough of her power is centralized in Luma, so there's not enough reward for protecting/killing luma.

Agree 100%.

Rosa should be basically incapable of KOing people (at least with smash attacks) without Luma.

Playing Rosaluma should be all about protecting Luma. It should be common practice for her to reverse direction and shield incoming projectiles so they hit her shield instead of Luma.

Someone said that grab followups make them better, then why does Ganon not have one? If he did have a hell of a better time even with his absolutely booty grab distance.

He absolutely should.

He has tiny little t-rex arms when he goes to grab, but stretch armstrong arms when he goes to grab the ledge...

 

[C0rvus]

Rosa should be basically incapable of KOing people (at least with smash attacks) without Luma.

Playing Rosaluma should be all about protecting Luma. It should be common practice for her to reverse direction and shield incoming projectiles so they hit her shield instead of Luma.

I'm not sure I agree with this. Rosa by herself lacks kill power outside of her ridiculous up air. She is very good at edgeguarding, as she should be.
With the way Luma exists, he can be very unreliable. Literally, stray dash attacks can end Luma. Rosa's design is one that is hard to get right. Puppet characters tend to be pretty broken or pretty bad. (Carl Clover from BB has been on both ends of the spectrum, but tends towards the former.)

 

[meleebrawler]

I'm not sure I agree with this. Rosa by herself lacks kill power outside of her ridiculous up air. She is very good at edgeguarding, as she should be.
With the way Luma exists, he can be very unreliable. Literally, stray dash attacks can end Luma. Rosa's design is one that is hard to get right. Puppet characters tend to be pretty broken or pretty bad. (Carl Clover from BB has been on both ends of the spectrum, but tends towards the former.)

No, it's Luma's uair that's stupid. Again.

Because Rosalina's moves tend to hit before Luma's, it's easy to mistake hers as the killing moves, when in reality none of her moves kill early outside some specific circumstances.

 

[Peppermint1201]

We're listing Rosalina's bad matchups? Okay. I'm not gonna explain these because I'm lazy but there's nothing particularly out of the ordinary, anyway. In no order:


Also possibly:

Could you elaborate on Marth, Olimar, and Pikachu? ESAM may have beaten Dabuz at CEO, but it was last hit, and Dabuz 3-0ed ESAM at Big House. I know Dabuz has lost to top Olimars before, but I can't say I know why.

 

[Myran]

Could you elaborate on Marth, Olimar, and Pikachu? ESAM may have beaten Dabuz at CEO, but it was last hit, and Dabuz 3-0ed ESAM at Big House. I know Dabuz has lost to top Olimars before, but I can't say I know why.

Olimar can wall out Rosa decently, and Luma makes his smashes stay active quite a long while. He can also jab lock luma for extra damage on it and a punish on Rosa if she runs in. He kills her easily, and is on the harder end of characters to gimp since his recovery is so good.

 

[Dabuz]

I don't know.

If you ever played against a really good Olimar in Brawl you'd know how frightening his damage output and KO power was. Smash 4 Olmar has NOTHING on that tbph. Perhaps summoning the one and only Dabuz can help us shedding some light on that issue?

Purple upthrows killing, upsmash being difficult to punish on block, a combo move, spacing move, and killing move (mk died at 80 from fresh purple upsmash), whistle armor lasting something like 18 frames out of 24 total move frames, longer standing grab thansheik fair...with almost no cooldown, nair -> upsmash or dsmash for kill setups...yeah brawl Olimar was a fun and broken masterpiece.

Edit: I laugh everytime Myran says i'm not a "real Olimar", do I use the character in tournament? Not really, he's not actually worth using over Rosa in a non-customs meta 95% of the time. Do I have a top level Olimar? Yes, used it to advance against good players during Evo and Paragon (Wii Twerk Trainer and False respectively) along with having semi recent wins over Dkwill and Tweek with him.