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Official Character Competitive Impressions - Tourneys, Tiers, Theories, Tactics

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meleebrawler

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after labbing out :4mewtwo: teleport i think the reason his is so wonky can largely be attributed to one factor:

there seems to be a couple frames where he's in the endlag of teleport but not in helpless. maybe in this state he is unable to grab the ledge, but physics still apply so he can bounce off surfaces, hence the bouncing off walls thing. when i labbed out :4palutena: teleport the ledge thing wasn't an issue because she has an auto-aim for it, but in the state between teleport and helpless her aerial momentum seemed to be carried downwards as opposed to :4mewtwo: being carried horizontally.
As much as the aerial momentum after teleport can cause SDs, it also pretty much ensures that you simply can't go deep offstage to get him as otherwise he'll just slip past you and steal the stage.
 

Browny

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First match... his use of the key on the second stock was utterly insane. He kept dropping it and instantly catching it as it hit, he must have got 3 hits out of it within 10 seconds.
 

Emblem Lord

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I am legit trying really hard to think of a match where I would use Ryu over Cloud. Fox and CF for sure.

But every other top tier? Especially Diddy, ESPECIALLY Sheik. Rosalina? Sonic?

Power of Mako, baby.

Not to mention he does better vs Pac-man and Megaman who are imo Ryus hardest matches.
 
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Smog Frog

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eh. i'd be cautious of calling matchups this early. what we have seen so far is that :4cloud: is a threat that should be taken seriously on a national level. is he a threat to the same extent as :4ryu:,:4sonic:,:4diddy:,:4fox:,:4mario:,:rosalina:? we don't know yet.
 

Luco

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Who are Fox's hardest MUs in this game? Who does he really lose to? I wish I could view these sets, but sounds like Fox had the tools he needed to win in those matches. Solo, might I add.
 

MistressRemilia

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i remember :4luigi: being hard but he's irrelevant. also something about :4drmario:?
Correct, Doc is among Fox's toughest matchups in this game.
This is partially due to how early Doc can/will end the stock vs Fox, as opposed to Mario who might struggle.
I won't go into detail that much, but tl;dr that matchup is still very do-able for Fox, just that he needs to know the matchup well enough, because otherwisee, he might get caught off guard by the Doc.
Matchup inexperience is especially brutal vs a character such as Doc, who's mixup can be brutal: Fox already can't afford to take too many hits, so if he isnt prepared to do the right choice in specific situations, this might turn really bad for him.
 
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~ Gheb ~

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The hardest matchups for Fox are Luma Rosalina > Ryu > Sheik / Luigi. They all have advantages over Fox to different degrees. Doc is pretty hard but I'd rank it among his even matchups. There are a few characters that are flat-out not good but they have a few properties that makes them difficult to deal with. Aside from Doc there's also Kirby who is about even against Fox despite not being a good character.

:059:
 

TTTTTsd

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The hardest matchups for Fox are Luma Rosalina > Ryu > Sheik / Luigi. They all have advantages over Fox to different degrees. Doc is pretty hard but I'd rank it among his even matchups. There are a few characters that are flat-out not good but they have a few properties that makes them difficult to deal with. Aside from Doc there's also Kirby who is about even against Fox despite not being a good character.

:059:
Yeah, to elaborate on Doc > Mario in the Fox MU...

- Doc's shorthop blocks Fox's approaches a lot better. Mario's isn't great here
- Considering Fox controls neutral in both MUs, it comes down to punish games.
- Doc being able to edgeguard Fox way better (as far as low edgeguards go) and kill him off a grab is super relevant.

This is just from my experience.
 

Wintropy

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It's surprising how high people put Pits. I'd personally say they are in mid tier somewhere as they lack the frame data to be in high tier. I guess Nairo and earth help Pits to maintain their position.
Routa said it well, his frame data is by no means underwhelming and he's above average in just about everything else. Add onto that the fact that he doesn't have any unwinnable matchups (I'd say the only noticeably disadvantaged matchups are ZSS and maybe Sonic, though others disagree with me on that, with Sheik, Mario, Fox and MK being the only top-tier matchups that are otherwise inconvenient), is essentially immune to patches (for the most part; Sakurai strongly implied that he doesn't want to change Pit too much, which is why it was especially surprising for Dark Pit to get that Electroshock buff), has consistent tournament placings (he doesn't turn up often, but the players that do tend to use him at the top are very good, especially Nairo and Earth) and doesn't seem to have much in the way of competition (again, there's nobody that threatens to bump him out of bracket at the CSS, he's never overtly threatened with failure from the get-go).

The other thing I'd say is that, to be a good character, you need to have options. The more options you have in any situation, and the more viable those options are, the better you can deal with what comes your way. Pit may not have Sheik or ZSS tier frame data, but most of his moves have their place in his kit (at most I can name a very small handful of moves that I never use, and even they have their niche in certain respects). I don't think a good Pit should ever think, "Oh, damn, X used this move, there's no way I can react to that"; unless the opponent's using a move that everybody, by definition, has difficulty with, you should never feel helpless.

This is a big reason why he's so good at reflecting a player's fundamentals: he has enough options, and more importantly enough good options, to cover his bases well in any matchup. Weaker characters either don't have that many options in the first place, or the options that they do have don't yield the same reward as stronger characters, and that makes it easier for them to be put in a state of disadvantage which they cannot recover from. Pit may not dominate as much as other top characters, and that means he'll never be a top-tier himself, but he can at least expect to react well to most kinds of pressure and mould to fit the player's gameplan. That's why a low or mid-level Pit isn't especially impressive, but a top-level Pit can really stand out: you're free to let your knowledge of the game and its mechanics do their thing, rather than bottlenecking yourself into a certain handful of moves that causes your entire gameplan to disintegrate if countered. Give it a while, see if more good players pick him up. Then I think we'll see some interesting developments for the angels.
 

PJB

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So Ive been watching this thread for some time now and I often people debate that X character can compete with sheik, then someone comes in and says lol no sheik destroys them just like she destroys everyone else. Is there any sort of consensus on which characters actually do the best against sheik? I'm not necessarily asking who wins vs her since the answer may very well be no one, but I'm just wondering which characters have the best matchups against her
 
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Ulevo

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So Ive been watching this thread for some time now and I often people debate that X character can compete with sheik, then someone comes in and says lol no sheik destroys them just like she destroys everyone else. Is there any sort of consensus on which characters actually do the best against sheik? I'm not necessarily who wins vs her since the answer may very well be no one, but I'm just wondering which characters have the best matchups against her
I would say Mario is a solid bet. It likely is not even, but it is fairly close. I am not sure if I would call the Lucario match up even, but Sheik has to take substantially higher risks in that match up than in others. warionumbah2 warionumbah2 described the Meta Knight match up best as "fraudulently even at best." However, Sheik is quite easy to kill if you are proficient in the match up it she makes an error.

There are other characters that likely come close, like Ryu, but I am not at liberty to say.
 

FallofBrawl

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Nu~ Nu~ Tea convinced me he understands Pacman the most, even more than Aba. He pulled off things I didn't know were possible in tourney or with pac:
- The use of dash attack, where he dash attacks and instantly cancels it to another DA the other way, probably using c stick on attack.
- The trampoline mixups,when he would use the extra air mobility as classic pac to mix up between going to ledge, ground, or go on the trampoline again and hitting Rain in the process. Reminiscent to Ness up-b mix ups with PKT2, hitting with the ball, or canceling it.
- And the key + hydrant set up my lord, his z drop shenanigans and mixing it up with his aerials shaved off at least 2 clean stocks out of 6 that set. Rain could not approach him at all, it was mind boggling.
 

Wintermelon43

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So Ive been watching this thread for some time now and I often people debate that X character can compete with sheik, then someone comes in and says lol no sheik destroys them just like she destroys everyone else. Is there any sort of consensus on which characters actually do the best against sheik? I'm not necessarily asking who wins vs her since the answer may very well be no one, but I'm just wondering which characters have the best matchups against her
Everyone agrees on Mario and Pikachu
 

Nu~

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Nu~ Nu~ Tea convinced me he understands Pacman the most, even more than Aba. He pulled off things I didn't know were possible in tourney or with pac:
- The use of dash attack, where he dash attacks and instantly cancels it to another DA the other way, probably using c stick on attack.
- The trampoline mixups,when he would use the extra air mobility as classic pac to mix up between going to ledge, ground, or go on the trampoline again and hitting Rain in the process. Reminiscent to Ness up-b mix ups with PKT2, hitting with the ball, or canceling it.
- And the key + hydrant set up my lord, his z drop shenanigans and mixing it up with his aerials shaved off at least 2 clean stocks out of 6 that set. Rain could not approach him at all, it was mind boggling.
I've seen a pacman that has shown greater pacman knowledge and skill than abadango (Dee) but I'm ecstatic to learn that there is yet another one! Abadango is a meta knight main now anyway. Out with the old, in with the new era of Pac-Man.

I'm so happy that people are now abusing his z drop + aerial mix ups. That technique alone helps to even the playing field in some matchups against rush down characters + sonic. Can't approach an opponent with a constant hitbox surrounding him.

Is there any place I can watch the replays?
 

FallofBrawl

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I've seen a pacman that has shown greater pacman knowledge and skill than abadango (Dee) but I'm ecstatic to learn that there is yet another one! Abadango is a meta knight main now anyway. Out with the old, in with the new era of Pac-Man.

I'm so happy that people are now abusing his z drop + aerial mix ups. That technique alone helps to even the playing field in some matchups against rush down characters + sonic. Can't approach an opponent with a constant hitbox surrounding him.

Is there any place I can watch the replays?
You can watch them on Niconico premium if you purchase it, not worth though. I think matches will be uploaded within some days on the SHI-Gaming youtube channel.
 

meleebrawler

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And Lucario being high percentage doesn't matter if you can't hit him before he hits you.

You phrased the question in such a way that points toward one answer being better, due to bias. So if I do that, and rephrase the exact same question, it's "would you rather have to win neutral ~15 times in a game where the top tiers can take stocks after winning neutral 3 times or less, or have to win neutral 3 times in the same game".

The other character may only have to win neutral once against high Aura Lucario to beat him, but characters like ZSS only have to win neutral 2-3 times to take a stock anyway. Needing to win neutral only once is debatable too, since Lucario can be just as slippery in neutral at high Aura and it's not wise for the top tiers to just throw out their kill moves. Often they'll need a kill setup which in turn is often a 50/50 so they may still have to win the neutral twice or more.Anyway, the point is that being at high Aura reduces the number of times Lucario is required to win neutral against good characters. The answer to your question isn't as obvious as you suggested.

Again, you phrase "get hit then kill everyone with Aura" negatively. If I were to suggest that Lucario's strategy were to "build Aura to help bridge the gap with his neutral game disparity and help his advantage state" then that sounds a lot nicer. Even though I'm saying the same thing. And that IS what Lucario does.

Sorry to "undersell" Lucario but to me he relies completely on lucky guesses - sorry, "hard reads" - and has a capacity like none other to turn matches into coin flips.

Before anyone accuses me of speaking out of salt, I don't have issues with Lucario - it's a MU I worked incredibly hard at BECAUSE I couldn't stand losing to him, and I'm pretty good at it now. However that doesn't change the way I feel about the character. Yes, he's inconsistent, which makes him unreliable at high level. We should all be thankful for that. I'm not saying he's a "problem" character but there are still huge problems with his design.
I still maintain that Lucario is better off treating his aura as a trump card rather than his ultimate goal. Because if you play it too early... you risk having nothing left when it fails.
 

Peppermint1201

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For those of you who missed the Japanese tournament last night, @Dabuz (www.twitch.tv/dabuz18) is watching some of the matches and analyzing them, so if you want to catch them before they're uploaded to YT this might be your best shot.
 
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Djent

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I don't think the Umebura vids ever ended up on SHI-G. There was a highlight video though:
Can you watch the archive of Dabuz's stream? That might actually be the best way to view them lol.
 

bc1910

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I am legit trying really hard to think of a match where I would use Ryu over Cloud. Fox and CF for sure.

But every other top tier? Especially Diddy, ESPECIALLY Sheik. Rosalina? Sonic?

Power of Mako, baby.

Not to mention he does better vs Pac-man and Megaman who are imo Ryus hardest matches.
In my experience Ryu does better against Greninja than Cloud does. My margin for error against a character like Ryu is much smaller than against a character who, while threatening, gets gimped sub-60% by Hydro Pump on a semi-consistent basis. It feels like prepatch sometimes.

But again, week 2 MUs lol.
 

Sonicninja115

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I am legit trying really hard to think of a match where I would use Ryu over Cloud. Fox and CF for sure.

But every other top tier? Especially Diddy, ESPECIALLY Sheik. Rosalina? Sonic?

Power of Mako, baby.

Not to mention he does better vs Pac-man and Megaman who are imo Ryus hardest matches.
I find that Cloud tends to be rather annoying to fight as Diddy. Cloud's Dtilt destroys Diddy's banana, without more then a slight lurch from Cloud. I dunno, my Shulk and Mewtwo do great against Clouds, but I am having a bit of trouble with Diddy, still have a winning record tho!
 

HFlash

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I find that Cloud tends to be rather annoying to fight as Diddy. Cloud's Dtilt destroys Diddy's banana, without more then a slight lurch from Cloud. I dunno, my Shulk and Mewtwo do great against Clouds, but I am having a bit of trouble with Diddy, still have a winning record tho!
Makes sense, the banana is very integral to Diddy's strong neutral, and removing it from the equation takes alot away from the monkey. Furthermore, cloud's biggest weakness is recovering back, and diddy really isn't the best for going off stage. You typically prefer to just hold stage control which cloud doesn't mind at all.
 

Dee-SmashinBoss

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Kirby may be one of Foxs harder MUs, is pretty much evenish, but after the patch it might be possible Kirby has the very slight advantage, but its only small. Thank you Uthrow buff :)
 

Thinkaman

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I've never understood what Duck Hunt was meant to have over other campers. The other campers aren't all equally good, but they at least all have something the others don't. Toon Link has bad frame data but good mobility. Villager trades mobility for frame data. Megaman is kind of heavy and can camp vertically. Link has good range and CQC options. Pac Man is highly versatile, the jack of all trades camper.

But I don't get what Duck Hunt was meant to have that the others don't. On the surface he just looks like a Toon Link with less mobility, worse vertical camping and worse killing potential.
Even setting aside can and DH's best in game dodges, DH has great aerial mobility while Toon Link has poor. In fact, Duck Hunt is very distinctly the most agile projectile-based character. (Mega Man comes close, with similar air speed, higher gravity, and slower ground speed.)

It's surprising how high people put Pits. I'd personally say they are in mid tier somewhere as they lack the frame data to be in high tier. I guess Nairo and earth help Pits to maintain their position.
Pit has a frame 10 f-smash, a frame 6 u-smash, a frame 5 d-smash--the fastest smashes in the game bar none. Sure, his jab is frame 5, but he has two frame 6 tilts, a frame 6 grab, and a frame 4 nair; what more do you want? Pit's average standing moveset startup time is 4th best in the game, only beaten by Mario, Dr. Mario, and Diddy. (who all tie)

Pit's average standing moveset startup time is faster than Little Mac's!
 

Djmarcus44

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After getting some experience against Cloud, I think that Mii Gunner can beat Cloud. Flame pillar at the ledge is a serious threat to Cloud's recovery (even with limit break up b Cloud can still die to flame pillar at the ledge really early), and Mii Gunner wins neutral against Cloud with a combination of shorthop fair at midrange and either reflector or flame pillar to get into midrange against Cloud's blade beam. While Cloud can combo and juggle Gunner pretty well, Cloud will not have an easy time getting the kill due to his lack of killing options that beat sheilding. Also, some of his moves (including some of his faster kill options) don't fully connect at high percents (His jab and side b can be avoided before the last hit connects. His down smash can also be teched).

Thinkaman Thinkaman Mii Gunner arguably has more agility when played optimally. Mii Gunner's foxtrot has a speed of 1.6 which is average ground speed, but Gunner's gundashing is the speed of a falcon kick (and it has no landing lag). With the use of gunner's reflector to change directions in the air, Gunner can gundash pretty often. With grenade's wave bouncing and bomb shuffling, Gunner is more agile than Duck Hunt when Gunner is allowed to use their best movesets.
 
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NewZen

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On the subject of MU's for Cloud, how would :4tlink: fall?

From my experience, I generally have no issues with Bomb and Boomerang set-ups, as they shut down Blade Beam (Standard) quite well. In terms of off-stage pressure, the only issue I have is landing F-air near the bottom of the stage, as Climhazard has been shown to shut me down as I try to go for the KO. On stage, I've noticed that unless I'm applying aerial pressure with N-air and projectiles, Cloud generally punishes Toon thanks to his reach, and trying to go for grabs at Kill percentage generally gets beaten by Cloud's D-Tilt or either Forward and Down Smash. As of now, I haven't lost to a single Cloud with my toon, but I feel as if I'm still doing something wrong. If anyone could elaborate, that would be greatly appreciated.
 

Mazdamaxsti

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So this video got my attention about Kirby. This youtuber makes Kirby videos about a lot of stuff, but he labbed hard for this one, and all the combos mentioned with no escapes are not escapable on certain characters. While, lets say, all of the d-tilt combos won't work on Luigi and most of the combos won't work well on characters like puff, there are a lot of interesting things about this video. Mainly kill confirms.

Kirby's main weakness before was killing, but after a buff to all of his kill moves AND being shown this video (honestly didn't know about a lot of these) my opinion was definitely changed. In order of appearance:
  • D-air - D-smash on floaties (unless you're puff, jump away)
  • D-air - B-air on floaties (no idea on puff)
  • D-tilt - F-smash (unless you're stupid luigi)
  • D-tilt - B-air (gtfo luigi D: )
  • F-air 1 - F-smash (character dependent)
  • N-air - F-smash
  • Reverse u-air - b-air (any DI but away)
All these kill confirms, plus some combos into kill confirms:
These combos into our really good kill throw and buffed killing aerials is actually amazing. A bit of skepticism:
  • D-tilt has a 25% trip chance, making it unreliable. Try not to f-smash unless you wanna go for the hard read on if it will trip.
  • D-air is frame 18 and not safe on shield, so using this for punishes/doing a crossup d-air (behind shield) are two ways to avoid being punished for using this move. Kirby's d-air has a frame 1-3 hitbox when it hits the ground, so try to fastfall at the end which can also interrupt shield-grab attempts.
  • U-tilt - D-air can't be used more than once, because the sour u-tilt (which is the hitbox used) can be perfect shielded after the first string. It is true apart from that (again, see https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1TrkuhVjVLbCeWDTZdES6vsChM5Bh-OyYpPyFvKLC7yc/edit#gid=0 for percents).
All of this along with being one of the best edge-guarders in the game, Kirby could have potentially become one of the most deadly killers (like killpower, not tier placement) in the game. Obviously he still has mobility and approaching issues, but this made his kill moves a threat. This could also be worse for Kirby because people will be more safe against him which i not what he wants, but theory can only get you so far.

Thoughts?
 
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Emblem Lord

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When people talk about Blade Beam in neutral, I know they got it all wrong.

That move is not good.

Talk more about how cloud is gonna reaction dtilt you if you try to SH aerial zone and uair land trap you for free.
 
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Dusk Pit

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Yea
Even setting aside can and DH's best in game dodges, DH has great aerial mobility while Toon Link has poor. In fact, Duck Hunt is very distinctly the most agile projectile-based character. (Mega Man comes close, with similar air speed, higher gravity, and slower ground speed.)



Pit has a frame 10 f-smash, a frame 6 u-smash, a frame 5 d-smash--the fastest smashes in the game bar none. Sure, his jab is frame 5, but he has two frame 6 tilts, a frame 6 grab, and a frame 4 nair; what more do you want? Pit's average standing moveset startup time is 4th best in the game, only beaten by Mario, Dr. Mario, and Diddy. (who all tie)

Pit's average standing moveset startup time is faster than Little Mac's!
Yea, I know his smashes come out super fast. I was mostly talking about his cooldowns and landing lags which all have 20 or 24 frames and that's quite a lot. He has many laggy moves but I never said his frame data is bad, just not as good as high tier characters'.
 

Kresent

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Want to give my opinion on Duck Hunt


I'm sure some of you guys have heard of Dandy Penguin, that Duck Hunt player from NC. He's my doubles partner and a long time friend from Marvel 3. So I've gotten to see a lot of Duck Hunt play, and I gotta say that anyone who thinks this character is bottom 10 doesn't know anything about this character. This character is an annoying brick wall to some characters and it doesn't matter if he can't kill until 200% if the opponent can't get within striking distance.


Yeah, he's not that great. He's probably right in the middle of the tier list. But you guys talk about how he struggles to kill while ignoring everything else about him. This character has amazing neutral that most characters have to respect. Can+gunmen+frisbee is really hard for a lot of characters to get past, especially when Duck hunt can still act while these moves do their things. His recovery sucks but Can is a GREAT tool for protecting his recovery. In fact, Can is just an amazing tool off stage anyway because it allows him to cover two options at once while he ledge guards. He also has a good jab (a lot of the zoning characters have pretty average or bad jabs), his grab range is pretty good, his mobility stats (fall speed, air speed, etc) are all pretty good, he's nnot super light, and Can is just such a godlike move that has so many options.

He doesn't have kill throws and struggles to get kills in general, but this character has an amazing neutral game (and though obviously not nearly as good as Sheik's, Sheik is good BECAUSE of her neutral game) and doesn't really struggle to rack up damage. I don't understand how some of you guys separate character attributes so much and look at everything as if it were in a vacuum. I'd say that Duck Hunt would have high tier potential if he had a reliable killing option simply because his neutral game is so hard for most of the cast to deal with.
 
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Dusk Pit

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Want to give my opinion on Duck Hunt


I'm sure some of you guys have heard of Dandy Penguin, that Duck Hunt player from NC. He's my doubles partner and a long time friend from Marvel 3. So I've gotten to see a lot of Duck Hunt play, and I gotta say that anyone who thinks this character is bottom 10 doesn't know anything about this character. This character is an annoying brick wall to some characters and it doesn't matter if he can't kill until 200% if the opponent can't get within striking distance.


Yeah, he's not that great. He's probably right in the middle of the tier list. But you guys talk about how he struggles to kill while ignoring everything else about him. This character has amazing neutral that most characters have to respect. Can+gunmen+frisbee is really hard for a lot of characters to get past, especially when Duck hunt can still act while these moves do their things. His recovery sucks but Can is a GREAT tool for protecting his recovery. In fact, Can is just an amazing tool off stage anyway because it allows him to cover two options at once while he ledge guards. He also has a good jab (a lot of the zoning characters have pretty average or bad jabs), his grab range is pretty good, his mobility stats (fall speed, air speed, etc) are all pretty good, he's nnot super light, and Can is just such a godlike move that has so many options.

He doesn't have kill throws and struggles to get kills in general, but this character has an amazing neutral game (and though obviously not nearly as good as Sheik's, Sheik is good BECAUSE of her neutral game) and doesn't really struggle to rack up damage. I don't understand how some of you guys separate character attributes so much and look at everything as if it were in a vacuum. I'd say that Duck Hunt would have high tier potential if he had a reliable killing option simply because his neutral game is so hard for most of the cast to deal with.
Well, he has those flaws which make him bad in general. Sure he has an awesome jab and uair and a good mobility but that's not nearly enough to make up for all those flaws. The can has some nice use but it's not always there when you need it to recover. Also, even bad characters can look good in hands of a good player. I do respect your opinion of course but I don't really see how Duck Hunt would be viable.
 

|RK|

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So this video got my attention about Kirby. This youtuber makes Kirby videos about a lot of stuff, but he labbed hard for this one, and all the combos mentioned with no escapes are not escapable on certain characters. While, lets say, all of the d-tilt combos won't work on Luigi and most of the combos won't work well on characters like puff, there are a lot of interesting things about this video. Mainly kill confirms.

Kirby's main weakness before was killing, but after a buff to all of his kill moves AND being shown this video (honestly didn't know about a lot of these) my opinion was definitely changed. In order of appearance:
  • D-air - D-smash on floaties (unless you're puff, jump away)
  • D-air - B-air on floaties (no idea on puff)
  • D-tilt - F-smash (unless you're stupid luigi)
  • D-tilt - B-air (gtfo luigi D:)
  • F-air 1 - F-smash (character dependent)
  • N-air - F-smash
  • Reverse u-air - b-air (any DI but away)
All these kill confirms, plus some combos into kill confirms:
These combos into our really good kill throw and buffed killing aerials is actually amazing. A bit of skepticism:
  • D-tilt has a 25% trip chance, making it unreliable. Try not to f-smash unless you wanna go for the hard read on if it will trip.
  • D-air is frame 18 and not safe on shield, so using this for punishes/doing a crossup d-air (behind shield) are two ways to avoid being punished for using this move. Kirby's d-air has a frame 1-3 hitbox when it hits the ground, so try to fastfall at the end which can also interrupt shield-grab attempts.
  • U-tilt - D-air can't be used more than once, because the sour u-tilt (which is the hitbox used) can be perfect shielded after the first string. It is true apart from that (again, see https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1TrkuhVjVLbCeWDTZdES6vsChM5Bh-OyYpPyFvKLC7yc/edit#gid=0 for percents).
All of this along with being one of the best edge-guarders in the game, Kirby could have potentially become one of the most deadly killers (like killpower, not tier placement) in the game. Obviously he still has mobility and approaching issues, but this made his kill moves a threat. This could also be worse for Kirby because people will be more safe against him which i not what he wants, but theory can only get you so far.

Thoughts?
One thing - you don't have to guess on d-tilt trip. You can F-Smash on reaction to the trip sound. That is all.
 

Wintropy

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Yea, I know his smashes come out super fast. I was mostly talking about his cooldowns and landing lags which all have 20 or 24 frames and that's quite a lot. He has many laggy moves but I never said his frame data is bad, just not as good as high tier characters'.
Out of interest, what do you think makes Pit a definitive mid-tier beyond frame data? Thinka's already crunched the numbers, so I don't need to reiterate that (though it is very much appreciated), but what about his other strengths?

Even disregarding his above-average frame data, he's got a good neutral game, viable options for most situations, doesn't get outright bodied by any character in the roster and, depending on who you're playing, you've either got a very versatile projectile or can kill at 70-80% with a hard read. Even if his landing lag is terrible (and I'm not denying that, it isn't great), he's got plenty of other strengths that most mid-tiers would kill for.

I don't know, he just seems to be very well-designed to me. He's not an ungodly oppressive top-tier abomination or anything, but he's solid where it counts. What, beyond landing lag, do you think really holds him back?
 

Mazdamaxsti

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can kill at 70-80% with a hard read.
Every character can, especially characters like dorf, yet we already have had arguments about why he is still bad. Don't use "can hard read at 70%" as a factor, thanks. Not being hostile, just stood out like a sore thumb in a good post.
 
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Wintropy

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Every character can, especially characters like dorf, yet we already have had arguments about why he is still bad. Don't use "can hard read at 70%" as a factor, thanks. Not being hostile, just stood out like a sore thumb in a good post.
I really don't think every character can, though, and the ones that can tend to either need a good bit of rage or ample time to charge up that move. Pittoo just needs to be near the edge for it to work, and even then he can be closer to the centre depending on how much rage he has.

Even calling it a hard read is probably overstating it. It has f16 startup, which isn't ideal, but it's armoured from f11, reflects projectiles, can be used right out of a walk, dash or pivot (Dark Pit has good data for all of these) and is still reasonably effective in mid-air. You're probably going to be punished if it's dodged or shielded, but it's significantly more versatile than most moves that absolutely do require a hard read to be effective.

Ganondorf isn't a good character because his strongest moves are slow, punishable, can be interrupted and tend to only be effective when he's grounded and standing still. That and he's overall a sluggish character without much in the way of decent positioning options. Not quite the same thing.
 

Nu~

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After watching Tea here: http://www.twitch.tv/dabuz18/v/31906844 (57 minutes in)

I've come to the conclusion that his z drop game is perhaps the most advanced out of any player in smash 4 so far. He makes it so that Pac-Man can essentially walk all over any character in nuetral when he has an item in hand. Walling, combos, KO confirms...the z drop fruit does it all.

I also like how he's a much more offensive Pac-Man. He is fighting the erroneous "campy" stigma that pac gets, no thanks to abadango. His usage of reverse uair for more reach to extend combos with was ingenious, and his reversal DA was incredibly tricky and fun to see. He knows pacman very well. Maybe more so than the likes of Koolaid and Abadango.

Where he falters is within his rookie mistakes. He has a bad airdodging habit, makes rather hasty approaches on shield with Fair (why didn't he just use SH fade away fairs which are safe on shield?), and was a bit careless with his fruit at times which allowed it to be stolen quite often. If he just played a little more safe, he would be a monster.

As of now, Dee is still the best pacman. It's a shame that he doesn't go to offline tourneys yet.
 
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Dusk Pit

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Out of interest, what do you think makes Pit a definitive mid-tier beyond frame data? Thinka's already crunched the numbers, so I don't need to reiterate that (though it is very much appreciated), but what about his other strengths?

Even disregarding his above-average frame data, he's got a good neutral game, viable options for most situations, doesn't get outright bodied by any character in the roster and, depending on who you're playing, you've either got a very versatile projectile or can kill at 70-80% with a hard read. Even if his landing lag is terrible (and I'm not denying that, it isn't great), he's got plenty of other strengths that most mid-tiers would kill for.

I don't know, he just seems to be very well-designed to me. He's not an ungodly oppressive top-tier abomination or anything, but he's solid where it counts. What, beyond landing lag, do you think really holds him back?
All I did say was that his frame data holds him back from being high tier imo. High cooldown and landing lag make a lot of his moves unsafe and easy to punish. Also, if you want to hear other "flaws" I think holds him back are that Pit doesn't have reliable kill setups, some of his moves don't always connect properly and his air speed is not very good. I think those alone make him mid tier, you know... average...

Pits are not bad by any means I just don't think they have what other high tier characters do. Where would you place them then?
 
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FallofBrawl

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Love how the last 3 dlc characters are humanoid (uair)combo meat, Komo should've went Sonic from the get go.
Why would he? He went Sonic vs Aba in winners, that's what put him in losers. Despite the good MU Sonic has vs MK, Aba just knew the matchup too well, and Komo wasn't well practiced with him. Heck he was much closer with Cloud than he was with Sonic lol.
 
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