Official Character Competitive Impressions - Tourneys, Tiers, Theories, Tactics

[Mario766]

I was thinking about Cloud's forward smash and how it has kind of a unique weakness among f-smashes.

Cloud's f-smash is a 3-hit attack, the first move doing 3%, the second doing 6%, and the third doing 10%. This means that it's actually easier to clash with weaker attacks, or even overpower his f-smash with your own. For example, if I'm Mewtwo, I could try to use my jab when up close to cause him to recoil on the first hit, then punish accordingly. If I'm Bowser, I can just straight up beat it out with sheer superior damage.

I don't know if it's the biggest deal, and it also affects other smashes as well, but it might be something Clouds have to watch out for.

Does Cloud's F-Smash recoil? I haven't experienced it, however you also have to remember that Cloud's F-Smash is disjointed, you'd have to clank it with another disjointed hitbox or you'll get beaten because it's a disjoint. Mewtwo's jab doesn't have amazing range, esp compared to Cloud's F-Smash which cleanly beats out a lot of moves like get-up attacks, which don't have the greatest range but still have the person lean into the attack or kick outward usually. With Bowser, the same problem happens. Just because Bowser's F-Smash does more damage, if Cloud's F-Smash hits his hurtbox, it'll beat it. Disjoints are a much different story than regular aspects of the game.

 

[Nobie]

Does Cloud's F-Smash recoil? I haven't experienced it, however you also have to remember that Cloud's F-Smash is disjointed, you'd have to clank it with another disjointed hitbox or you'll get beaten because it's a disjoint. Mewtwo's jab doesn't have amazing range, esp compared to Cloud's F-Smash which cleanly beats out a lot of moves like get-up attacks, which don't have the greatest range but still have the person lean into the attack or kick outward usually. With Bowser, the same problem happens. Just because Bowser's F-Smash does more damage, if Cloud's F-Smash hits his hurtbox, it'll beat it. Disjoints are a much different story than regular aspects of the game.

I've seen F-smash recoil while fighting against a CPU Cloud, which is why I thought of it in the first place, but I can't quite remember who I was using vs. Cloud.

 

[S_B]

I'm not sure I agree with this. Rosa by herself lacks kill power outside of her ridiculous up air.

I've seen her kill with F and Usmash at reasonable percents without Luma.

 

[Luco]

Most Ness vs Rosa matches where the Ness wins don't actually get talked about, but they do happen. Unfortunately it doesn't really happen where it needs to, which is at top level. An argument could probably be made regarding the skill level of the top players in question, but ultimately the world at this point doesn't really have any reason to believe Ness or Rosa mains when we both say the MU is probably no worse than 6:4.

Which is a shame, and something I still hope will change with time.

 

[C0rvus]

Most Ness vs Rosa matches where the Ness wins don't actually get talked about, but they do happen. Unfortunately it doesn't really happen where it needs to, which is at top level. An argument could probably be made regarding the skill level of the top players in question, but ultimately the world at this point doesn't really have any reason to believe Ness or Rosa mains when we both say the MU is probably no worse than 6:4.

Which is a shame, and something I still hope will change with time.

Well, for what it's worth, Ness and Rosa mains not only know better, but the ratio matters most to you guys anyway. It is almost definitely around 6:4. Rosa has stronger advantages and seems to have a stronger hold on the neutral, but Ness has strong tools of his own. PK Thunder juggles in particular can give Rosa a hell of a time.

 

[Rizen]

while Link is the receiver of quite nice buffs over time, even though he also got nerfed once(?), he is likely better than 'not very good'.

Link had that jab cancel taken away. And I agree.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fWmtA1VCHWY

Speaking of swordsmen, what are peoples' ruling on Shulk and Link's latest buffs? Shulk is someone I occasionally derp around with online but it isn't a character I practice seriously so I don't know if his latest buffs were a big game changer for him.

Also, maybe too early for this but who do people think is more competitively viable: Ike or Cloud and why?

My thoughts from a previous post on Link after the patch.

This is my impression of Link post patch.
http://smashboards.com/threads/1-1-3-patch-notes.425921/

The bad:
Dair getting a ground only hitbox takes away some combos like Bomb thrown down>footstool>Dair lock>Fsmash.

The good: Link got significant buffs to one area he needed them: killing.

His up launching Dsmash1 now hits at a steeper angle and harder. Fsmash 2 also hits slightly harder. These aren't huge but Link gets better reward on hit.

UpB links hits better. Consider the implications with Link's Dthrow; he has one more option to chase opponents in the air and possibly kill. IDK how escapable it is but I have had much better success landing every hit. This also buffs Link's intercepting game; he can SH Dair/Fair/Nair offstage then upB to the ledge (or past it) for a significant wall of pain offstage.

Fair got massive power buffs. The damage for both hits is improved and the BKB for hit 1 is doubled. Bomb>Fair 1 kills almost as early as Toon Link's (both hit frame 14 btw). Killing at a lower % means Fair is easier to chain from bombs/Dthrow/Dtilt because the opponent is launched closer. Considering how safe Fair is (good shield stun, range, cuts 2 times to catch dodges, 12 frames landing lag) this is significant.

Consider these when thinking buffs on characters like Mewtwo will switch the Link MU in their favor. IMO Link is planted in mid-tier instead of hanging on the lower edge of it. Link still has terrible MUs with relevant top tiers like Sheik, ZSS and Fox. His slow frame data and mobility are the same. But he has better, more reliable chains and killing options for every MU now. It's sort of like saying 'instead of a -1, Link now has a -0.5 MU'. Not enough to drastically sway anything but nice all around.

 

[Luco]

Well, for what it's worth, Ness and Rosa mains not only know better, but the ratio matters most to you guys anyway. It is almost definitely around 6:4. Rosa has stronger advantages and seems to have a stronger hold on the neutral, but Ness has strong tools of his own. PK Thunder juggles in particular can give Rosa a hell of a time.

PKT juggles, Dsmash at the ledge (knowing how to time this when Rosa uses upB pretty much makes her as dead offstage as you are in that position), spaced aerials in neutral (and respecting luma), PK fire catching luma (if you catch Rosa/luma when they're landing or in some other position, this can be massive. Getting rid of luma is biiiiig).... Yeah.

It matters most to us definitely, but until Ness mains start overcoming this MU at top level it'll probably hurt his tier listing more than anything else. *sad*

 

[A10theHero]

Before I say anything else, hello to everyone. I usually lurk on this thread, but I've never posted before because I never felt that I could contribute much to the discussion. I'm a Pikachu main and this topic concerns Pikachu, so I'm here.

Could you elaborate on Marth, Olimar, and Pikachu? ESAM may have beaten Dabuz at CEO, but it was last hit, and Dabuz 3-0ed ESAM at Big House. I know Dabuz has lost to top Olimars before, but I can't say I know why.

I know some people think that the matchup is in Pikachu's favor because he's good at applying pressure, juggling, and edgeguarding. I kinda disagree with that though. In my opinion, the matchup is probably even. The neutral is what makes it hard for Pikachu; you have to be very patient against Rosalina. Finding key moments to get rid of Luma and then capitalizing on Rosalina's weakened state immediately afterwards is very important.
In the match between ESAM and Dabuz, I do want to point out that ESAM lost his first stock in the first match by SDing. The frustration from that could've affected his performance throughout the set (the commentators also made note of his frustration). In addition, I noticed that he used smashes very often in those matches even though Pikachu's smashes are very punishable (case in point, the second match ended when ESAM got punished for his yolo up smash). Along with that, ESAM acted impatiently quite a few times, approaching when he should've been more patient. While this set shows that Pikachu doesn't necessarily beat Rosalina, the opposite isn't necessarily true either.

 

[Browny]

Does Cloud's F-Smash recoil? I haven't experienced it, however you also have to remember that Cloud's F-Smash is disjointed, you'd have to clank it with another disjointed hitbox or you'll get beaten because it's a disjoint. Mewtwo's jab doesn't have amazing range, esp compared to Cloud's F-Smash which cleanly beats out a lot of moves like get-up attacks, which don't have the greatest range but still have the person lean into the attack or kick outward usually. With Bowser, the same problem happens. Just because Bowser's F-Smash does more damage, if Cloud's F-Smash hits his hurtbox, it'll beat it. Disjoints are a much different story than regular aspects of the game.

Disjoints dont matter on grounded attacks when two hitboxes clash, only if the damage is 10% or greater than the other attack, will one override the other.

I believe Nobie is right, I'll test it though. In theory Clouds fsmash should clank with literally every grounded normal move in the game.

 

[Mario766]

Disjoints dont matter on grounded attacks, only if the damage is 10% or greater than the other attack, will one override the other.

I believe Nobie is right, I'll test it though. In theory Clouds fsmash should clank with literally every grounded normal move in the game.

It's ~8 percent I think?

I was thinking of transcendent property unfortunately with my post.

This idea purely cements Cloud's F-Smash being a read option or a punish option for badly spaced moves. It doesn't change anything.

 

[S_B]

I think the Rosa matchup would be more tolerable for everyone (including the Rosa player) if Luma had better consistency.

What do I mean by that?

Right now, it's entirely possible for Luma to either live through the entire ~50% damage it takes before dying, or get hit by a single dash attack and die immediately, again and again. I've seen Luma knocked off the stage repeatedly on respawn in this manner, which must be very frustrating for the Rosa player.

Meanwhile, needing to deal ~50% damage to Luma in order to have some time alone with Rosalina is a gigantic PITA for many characters, especially those with absolutely no zoning tools whose only choice is to throw out attacks and hope Luma gets hit when Rosalina shields (or you hit both) and can avoid getting hit by Luma at the same time.

It's a situation that's generally inconsistent and there are reasons for both parties to hate it.

A better trade off would be to make it so Luma can be recovered from tumble animation (maybe you just need to hold the B button a bit longer to "retrieve" it), but Luma has less overall health, maybe 30-35% instead of ~50%.

Or, calling Luma back out of a tumble animation would cause it to lose 10% of its health or something along those lines, and you cannot call it back if it has insufficient HP (it would probably have a bit less HP to start with as well).

In either case, Rosa wouldn't lose Luma to one hit by a ledge and players wouldn't have to chew through 50% of Luma's HP before having a chance to fight Rosa.

Not like I expect we'd see this as a change, but it seems like it would just make it a much more consistent fight for both parties.

 

[Radical Larry]

Rizen Let me break down your post (which is in the spoiler. Don't ask why) little by little again and add some extra inquiry into this.

Spoiler

The bad:
Dair getting a ground only hitbox takes away some combos like Bomb thrown down>footstool>Dair lock>Fsmash.

The good: Link got significant buffs to one area he needed them: killing.

His up launching Dsmash1 now hits at a steeper angle and harder. Fsmash 2 also hits slightly harder. These aren't huge but Link gets better reward on hit.

UpB links hits better. Consider the implications with Link's Dthrow; he has one more option to chase opponents in the air and possibly kill. IDK how escapable it is but I have had much better success landing every hit. This also buffs Link's intercepting game; he can SH Dair/Fair/Nair offstage then upB to the ledge (or past it) for a significant wall of pain offstage.

Fair got massive power buffs. The damage for both hits is improved and the BKB for hit 1 is doubled. Bomb>Fair 1 kills almost as early as Toon Link's (both hit frame 14 btw). Killing at a lower % means Fair is easier to chain from bombs/Dthrow/Dtilt because the opponent is launched closer. Considering how safe Fair is (good shield stun, range, cuts 2 times to catch dodges, 12 frames landing lag) this is significant.

Consider these when thinking buffs on characters like Mewtwo will switch the Link MU in their favor. IMO Link is planted in mid-tier instead of hanging on the lower edge of it. Link still has terrible MUs with relevant top tiers like Sheik, ZSS and Fox. His slow frame data and mobility are the same. But he has better, more reliable chains and killing options for every MU now. It's sort of like saying 'instead of a -1, Link now has a -0.5 MU'. Not enough to drastically sway anything but nice all around.

D-Air getting a ground only hitbox takes away specifically one combo, one that is actually highly impractical anyways. Now it instead has a combo where you can Bomb Throw > Footstool > D-Air Bounce 1 > D-Air Bounce 2 > F-Tilt, which deals surprisingly more damage and has a more desired effect (that and it can work more practically around higher damages thanks to how his D-Air works with AC).

This special hitbox, which is the "Body Jump" hitbox, is actually extremely better to link up to at higher damages (around 60%). Now previously, the hitbox would send opponents upward (which would result in them being too high for the second hit) and Link couldn't get a second hit when the opponent is on the ground. Now, Link can actually get both strikes on the opponent with an efficient 26% damage (or shield damage). If Link can AC before the opponent's shield comes loose, he can perform an F-Tilt or F-Smash and those will finish the job on that shield.

Now to your good.

Link's D-Smash 1 definitely has that power buff, and rightfully so for Link. All of Link's Smash attacks are fairly amazing in their own merit, but D-Smash 1 having an increase in power makes it quite usable more and more due to its fast hitboxes coming out (still, I recommend using Jab after SH N-Air if the opponent shields). I won't comment about the F-Smash 2 buff though.

Skipping the whole UpB thing.

Let me add on to your F-Air thing. His Bomb > F-Air will actually kill earlier than Toon Link's on opponents now, and thanks to its massive power buff, Link can actually be able to pressure shields by a large amount. If the opponent is in quite the shield stun, Link could space it out so the opponent would get struck by the tip of his D-Smash or his entire F-Smash, which also results in a potential to absolute shield break. If Link can F-Air and strike with both hits, it deals 24% (or 25% in some cases) damage. That applies to shields. If he can do that and link up with D-Smash, it will potentially bust a shield (seeing as it might have been dealt 38% to 39% damage, and it takes what, 40% to bust one?) or absolutely bust a shield with F-Smash (both F-Air hits and an F-Smash will always deal enough damage to bust a shield, raw or stale).

Now yes, Link is definitely planted in mid-tier, but if people can manage to find ways to get the opponent's shield busted by Link's attacks, then Link could rise up into the upper mid-tier category, at least in the 23 to 27 spots. Link is a character who can pretty effectively punish his opponents now, and this is the character whom went every patch with buff after buff after buff done to him (except one nerf, but that's actually now just insignificant, really). Link may absolutely start seeing some action if people started doing more tournament representation with him. He has the extreme potential that is purely untapped by a lot of professionals, and if people can just put stuff behind them, they can find that Link has some high potential.

He does have a lot of more tolerable match ups now, especially on the lighter characters since he kills much earlier, and the fast fall or heavier characters just because he can actually get to them with an edge-guarding tool that is far more effective than previous patches.

 

[Browny]

Does anyone have a link to that japanese tournament going on today, I cant seem to find where it is on the niconico page. thanks

 

[FallofBrawl]

Does anyone have a link to that japanese tournament going on today, I cant seem to find where it is on the niconico page. thanks

I think it was posted some pages ago, but here for convenience sake: http://live.nicovideo.jp/watch/lv245521256
You3 DuckHunt is amazing with can into aerials and kamikaze cans into aerials, his option coverage is unreal.
EDIT: you have to sign up to view it

 

[Browny]

I think it was posted some pages ago, but here for convenience sake: http://live.nicovideo.jp/watch/lv245521256
You3 DuckHunt is amazing with can into aerials and kamikaze cans into aerials, his option coverage is unreal.

-Edit-

nvm thanks, I didn't realise I needed an account to watch the stream.

 

[Vyrnx]

Link's fair is great now. The extra damage 11% hit 1, 13% hit 2 is pretty big IMO, especially for a move with a big disjoint and 12 frames of landing lag... Can space out shields, cover ledge get ups, edge guard, combo from bomb, and it kills really early. Really it's a good move now, whereas before the damage was pretty lame.

I still think Link has the biggest cqc woes of any character, some really, really bad matchups, low mobility, pretty bad landing options (decentish though)... But he has amazing edge guarding, zoning.p, and bomb setups. For real though, when Larry used to go on about Link's edge guarding, I didn't believe him, but he's totally right on that one. Not gonna give a guess of where I think he is in tiers because it doesn't really matter and I wouldn't know.

 

[Rizen]

Rizen Let me break down your post (which is in the spoiler. Don't ask why) little by little again and add some extra inquiry into this.



D-Air getting a ground only hitbox takes away specifically one combo, one that is actually highly impractical anyways 1. Now it instead has a combo where you can Bomb Throw > Footstool > D-Air Bounce 1 > D-Air Bounce 2 > F-Tilt 2, which deals surprisingly more damage and has a more desired effect (that and it can work more practically around higher damages thanks to how his D-Air works with AC).

This special hitbox, which is the "Body Jump" hitbox, is actually extremely better to link up to at higher damages (around 60%). Now previously, the hitbox would send opponents upward (which would result in them being too high for the second hit 3) and Link couldn't get a second hit when the opponent is on the ground 4. Now, Link can actually get both strikes on the opponent with an efficient 26% damage (or shield damage). If Link can AC before the opponent's shield comes loose 5, he can perform an F-Tilt or F-Smash and those will finish the job on that shield.

Now to your good.

Link's D-Smash 1 definitely has that power buff, and rightfully so for Link. All of Link's Smash attacks are fairly amazing in their own merit, but D-Smash 1 having an increase in power makes it quite usable more and more due to its fast hitboxes coming out (still, I recommend using Jab after SH N-Air 6 if the opponent shields). I won't comment about the F-Smash 2 buff though.

Skipping the whole UpB thing.

Let me add on to your F-Air thing. His Bomb > F-Air will actually kill earlier than Toon Link's on opponents now 7, and thanks to its massive power buff, Link can actually be able to pressure shields by a large amount. If the opponent is in quite the shield stun, Link could space it out so the opponent would get struck by the tip of his D-Smash or his entire F-Smash 8, which also results in a potential to absolute shield break. If Link can F-Air and strike with both hits, it deals 24% (or 25% in some cases) damage. That applies to shields. If he can do that and link up with D-Smash, it will potentially bust a shield (seeing as it might have been dealt 38% to 39% damage, and it takes what, 40% to bust one?) or absolutely bust a shield with F-Smash (both F-Air hits and an F-Smash will always deal enough damage to bust a shield, raw or stale).

Now yes, Link is definitely planted in mid-tier, but if people can manage to find ways to get the opponent's shield busted by Link's attacks, then Link could rise up into the upper mid-tier category, at least in the 23 to 27 spots 9. Link is a character who can pretty effectively punish his opponents now 10, and this is the character whom went every patch with buff after buff after buff done to him (except one nerf, but that's actually now just insignificant, really). Link may absolutely start seeing some action if people started doing more tournament representation with him 11. He has the extreme potential that is purely untapped by a lot of professionals, and if people can just put stuff behind them, they can find that Link has some high potential 12.

He does have a lot of more tolerable match ups now, especially on the lighter characters since he kills much earlier, and the fast fall or heavier characters just because he can actually get to them with an edge-guarding tool that is far more effective than previous patches.

1 locking the opponent is never impractical. Dair 2 is not a good kill option like lock>Fsmash was.
2 this is not a combo and very easy to escape from.
3 you could Dair>Uair for kills before, at high %s the current 2nd hit of Dair is easy to DI away from.
4 instead of sending them strait up it sends them at a 55 degree angle, much harder to combo from.
5 he can't. But I agree the extra shield pressure is nice.
6 SH Nair on shields is punishable by OoS options. Link's frame 7 jab and frame 9 Dsmash aren't fast enough to hit before most characters can attack Link 1st.
7 The testing I've seen shows TL still kills earlier.

I mentioned in the last page that fair 1 kills Mario from FD spawn point with no rage and no DI at 101%. Since you guys are probably more familiar with seeing
TL's fair, for comparison his fair kills Mario in the same position/situation at 99%.

but I haven't tested this myself.
8 I agree the shield stun's nice but the opponent can escape before D/Fsmash can hit.
9 IMO he's more in the 30-35th best range. Top 23 would put Link above characters like Peach and Megaman.
10 this is all relative. Link's punish game is nowhere near top tiers'.
11 you keep saying Link doesn't have tourney rep but that's never been true.
http://smashboards.com/threads/link-tournament-results-thread-25th-october.404196/
12 quit pulling this 'untapped' shizzle. The people who place well in large tournaments are the ones saying he's not high tier and loses to Sheik.

I still think Link has the biggest cqc woes of any character 1, some really, really bad matchups, low mobility, pretty bad landing options 2 (decentish though)... But he has amazing edge guarding, zoning.p, and bomb setups. For real though, when Larry used to go on about Link's edge guarding, I didn't believe him, but he's totally right on that one. Not gonna give a guess of where I think he is in tiers because it doesn't really matter and I wouldn't know.

1
2 Link has a great landing game. Low landing lag aerials (-Dair/Uair) on par with ZSS, Dair that bounces projectiles and counters, good disjoint and most importantly bombs. Drift back, Zair and drop a bomb and Link's very well covered.

/my 2 cents

 

[Radical Larry]

Rizen
1. You're forgetting that in order for Link to get that lock without activating the second bounce before, he would have had to land and risk NOT AC'ing, allowing the opponent to recover and shield (or at some damages, tech).
2. What are you talking about it not being a combo? You're saying that the thing I can do (I'll even prove it on video when I get the chance) isn't a combo? Besides, if you factor in that the second hit deals low enough KB for you to follow up into an F-Tilt, that is pretty good. It might be escaped, but in no ways can it be escaped pre-60%.
3. That is why it's best to do it around or below the 60% mark and make sure to get the second bounce, so that you can auto-cancel and follow up with an attack. Remember, the second bounce has low enough KB, but even then on the first bounce, should the second bounce miss and you land, you can still follow up with an attack (if your opponent is still in mid-air and tumble), a grab (if they land and attack or tech), lock (if they land and you can still get the hit in) or a high punishing move (if they tech forward or backward). Besides, now you just have to hit your opponent mid-air to activate D-Air > U-Air, which I normally do.
4. Not necessarily. If both lands hit and Link ACs, then he can get them with a decent move at least.
5. Well if Link is behind them, then they could have a tougher time punishing outside a turn grab. Now if they decide to hold up their shield after Link's D-Air, then there's that scenario where it will happen. But remember, 26% is a hell of a lot of shield pressure that can have the potential to be followed up.
6. True, I will give you that, but remember to retreat if you hit a shield.
7. What recorded damage can Toon Link's F-Air kill at with and without DI at the middle of the stage? Link's can actually kill around the 90% to 100% range on Mario (from what I've tested) and around the late 70% to early 80% range with high rage.
8. Yes, but then you read where their dodge is going. If they roll away, chase them. If they roll toward, Spin Attack. Reading is good in that scenario.
9. Well, in the 30-35 bracket, that would actually put Link in the low tier. Out of 56 characters so far, 35 is actually low. Positions 24 to 28 would be the absolute middle tier. But what's to say Link would be above Peach and Mega Man? They're definitely above them, and if Link would take 23, they'd be above him by a bit, but if Link's 28, they're above him at a high margin. Link is around B Tier (using my style of categorization).
10. True, but it is at least high tier. Have you ever tried D-Tilt for pressure and F-Tilt for follow up? Or how about F-Tilt when the opponent tries coming back on the stage? If they roll or simply come back up, that next F-Tilt will get them. If they jump, punish with a U-Air. It's actually effective at times.
11. I said if they would do MORE. I know there are tourney reps for Link, but I feel like the higher ups like ZeRo and Nairo could try picking him up, see what they can do with him. As unlikely as it sounds, it would do some good (seeing as Doc was picked and stuff and now he's suddenly considered middle) for Link.
12. Uh...Link lose to Sheik? I'd rather say that that MU is actually quite even. It can go one way or the other for each character thanks to this new patch (which solidifies it as a solid 50:50 MU). Link's increased KO prowess and edge-guarding capabilities against opponents lend him a hand against Sheik, who would normally use Bouncing Fish to recover back to the stage. Link can now just F-Air her into oblivion if she is above the edge of the stage when recovering. Plus, if either character can land a grab, the opponent will get combo'd in chains. Link just has the power, whereas Sheik has the speed. Sheik has some edge-guarding prowess, Link has superior edge-guarding prowess. You know, not all characters have to have exceptional or extremely good frame data to go even with Sheik. Link is an example. (And I'm not overly exaggerating or underly exaggerating either's prowess and potential. Link and Sheik just go even to the brim, but people can't recognize it can happen.)

 

[ARGHETH]

12. Uh...Link lose to Sheik? I'd rather say that that MU is actually quite even. It can go one way or the other for each character thanks to this new patch (which solidifies it as a solid 50:50 MU). Link's increased KO prowess and edge-guarding capabilities against opponents lend him a hand against Sheik, who would normally use Bouncing Fish to recover back to the stage. Link can now just F-Air her into oblivion if she is above the edge of the stage when recovering. Plus, if either character can land a grab, the opponent will get combo'd in chains. Link just has the power, whereas Sheik has the speed. Sheik has some edge-guarding prowess, Link has superior edge-guarding prowess. You know, not all characters have to have exceptional or extremely good frame data to go even with Sheik. Link is an example. (And I'm not overly exaggerating or underly exaggerating either's prowess and potential. Link and Sheik just go even to the brim, but people can't recognize it can happen.)

...You do realize that the reason that Sheik's recovery is so good is that she has multiple options, right? If it were as easy as hit the Bouncing Fish, Robin would be able to actually edgeguard Sheik outside of Arcfiring the ledge.
And plus, it'd be really helpful if you explained why Link's frame data isn't as much an issue here as with, say, Ike. All you said is that Link can combo her badly if he gets a grab, which requires getting the grab first.

 

[FallofBrawl]

Komorikiri switched from Sonic to Cloud after being beaten game 1 and takes it from Edge in losers quarters 2-1.

EDIT: Komirikiri switched from Sonic to Cloud after being beaten game 1 and takes it from Rain in losers semis 2-1 It does not look liek Cloud does bad vs Sheik at all.

EDIT 2: Close games with Komorikiri and Aba but Aba squuezes the victory, 2-0

What a terrible character.

 

[Radical Larry]

...You do realize that the reason that Sheik's recovery is so good is that she has multiple options, right? If it were as easy as hit the Bouncing Fish, Robin would be able to actually edgeguard Sheik outside of Arcfiring the ledge.
And plus, it'd be really helpful if you explained why Link's frame data isn't as much an issue here as with, say, Ike. All you said is that Link can combo her badly if he gets a grab, which requires getting the grab first.

Well first off, Link has the ability to safely outrange Sheik and actually KO her in an edge-guard. Try doing that with Ike or Robin. No matter how good your recovery is, it's relatively bad when Link can successfully F-Air you to death. Case in point, Ryu. No matter how much you may Tatsu, if you get hit by Link's F-Air, he's probably going to use another F-Air. Don't think about FADC, Link has a second hit. All it takes is timing.

And alright, let's get this straight, I said characters don't have to have exceptional or extremely good frame data and that Link was an example. He's considered sluggish by people, but even then his attacks are still pretty fast and powerful. Besides, it doesn't matter how fast an attack comes out, what matters is if the attack comes out first anyways.

But regardless, Link's frame data isn't much of an issue compared to Ike is because Link has some attacks that offer better coverage and range than Ike's attacks. Link doesn't necessarily need amazing frame data due to his abnormally ranged disjointed attacks (in comparison to others). Though there are some attacks and other moves Link has in his arsenal may have better frame data than Ike's like Link's U-Tilt, all of Link's Smash attacks, Link's rolls (end lag is shorter), all of Link's aerials EXCEPT for F-Air and all of Link's specials EXCEPT Gale Boomerang (let's not count Ike's Counter since it has to be activated, nor Link's bombs since they have to be pulled out). Link also has the range to back up most of these attacks whereas Ike may not.

Either way, I will say that even if Link's grab is frame 12, if it comes out before Sheik or anyone pulls an attack out, then Link can certainly get the grab. His grab is a 5 frame grab, so any opponent who short hops is going to get grabbed by Link, and any opponent close enough to Link, should he activate the grab before an opponent can actually touch him, could get grabbed.

A little side note. It's apparent that Link's Spin Attack, being frame 8, can actually wreck all of Ike's specials since it comes out before ANY of Ike's specials (it's one frame before Ike's Counter activates). Also, Link's F-Air is frame 14. Sheik's Bouncing Fish is Frame 17 earliest activation. I really do not see how Link could lose to Sheik's Bouncing Fish UNLESS Sheik activates the attack 4+ frames earlier.

Again, like I stated before, frame data will not matter when an attack (which is slower) may come out before a different attack and actually hit. We can even go on two characters who have even frame data on an attack, like Link and Ganondorf's F-Air attacks. They both start frame 14, but often it will come down on to who activates first OR who has better range. Like DBZ's Power Levels, Smash Bros. frame data is bull**** when you know about fundamentals like attacking first.

 

[Knife8193]

Rizen
1. You're forgetting that in order for Link to get that lock without activating the second bounce before, he would have had to land and risk NOT AC'ing, allowing the opponent to recover and shield (or at some damages, tech).
2. What are you talking about it not being a combo? You're saying that the thing I can do (I'll even prove it on video when I get the chance) isn't a combo? Besides, if you factor in that the second hit deals low enough KB for you to follow up into an F-Tilt, that is pretty good. It might be escaped, but in no ways can it be escaped pre-60%.
3. That is why it's best to do it around or below the 60% mark and make sure to get the second bounce, so that you can auto-cancel and follow up with an attack. Remember, the second bounce has low enough KB, but even then on the first bounce, should the second bounce miss and you land, you can still follow up with an attack (if your opponent is still in mid-air and tumble), a grab (if they land and attack or tech), lock (if they land and you can still get the hit in) or a high punishing move (if they tech forward or backward). Besides, now you just have to hit your opponent mid-air to activate D-Air > U-Air, which I normally do.
4. Not necessarily. If both lands hit and Link ACs, then he can get them with a decent move at least.
5. Well if Link is behind them, then they could have a tougher time punishing outside a turn grab. Now if they decide to hold up their shield after Link's D-Air, then there's that scenario where it will happen. But remember, 26% is a hell of a lot of shield pressure that can have the potential to be followed up.
6. True, I will give you that, but remember to retreat if you hit a shield.
7. What recorded damage can Toon Link's F-Air kill at with and without DI at the middle of the stage? Link's can actually kill around the 90% to 100% range on Mario (from what I've tested) and around the late 70% to early 80% range with high rage.
8. Yes, but then you read where their dodge is going. If they roll away, chase them. If they roll toward, Spin Attack. Reading is good in that scenario.
9. Well, in the 30-35 bracket, that would actually put Link in the low tier. Out of 56 characters so far, 35 is actually low. Positions 24 to 28 would be the absolute middle tier. But what's to say Link would be above Peach and Mega Man? They're definitely above them, and if Link would take 23, they'd be above him by a bit, but if Link's 28, they're above him at a high margin. Link is around B Tier (using my style of categorization).
10. True, but it is at least high tier. Have you ever tried D-Tilt for pressure and F-Tilt for follow up? Or how about F-Tilt when the opponent tries coming back on the stage? If they roll or simply come back up, that next F-Tilt will get them. If they jump, punish with a U-Air. It's actually effective at times.
11. I said if they would do MORE. I know there are tourney reps for Link, but I feel like the higher ups like ZeRo and Nairo could try picking him up, see what they can do with him. As unlikely as it sounds, it would do some good (seeing as Doc was picked and stuff and now he's suddenly considered middle) for Link.
12. Uh...Link lose to Sheik? I'd rather say that that MU is actually quite even. It can go one way or the other for each character thanks to this new patch (which solidifies it as a solid 50:50 MU). Link's increased KO prowess and edge-guarding capabilities against opponents lend him a hand against Sheik, who would normally use Bouncing Fish to recover back to the stage. Link can now just F-Air her into oblivion if she is above the edge of the stage when recovering. Plus, if either character can land a grab, the opponent will get combo'd in chains. Link just has the power, whereas Sheik has the speed. Sheik has some edge-guarding prowess, Link has superior edge-guarding prowess. You know, not all characters have to have exceptional or extremely good frame data to go even with Sheik. Link is an example. (And I'm not overly exaggerating or underly exaggerating either's prowess and potential. Link and Sheik just go even to the brim, but people can't recognize it can happen.)

I got summoned by a quote!

Link loses to Sheik and like many characters, its his worst MU. It's preposterous to suggest otherwise lol. Have you even played a good Sheik? Sheik can gimp, combo, and punish Link with ease. The only good thing in the MU is that Link can beat fair with pivot ftilt/utilt and in general outranges her. It doesnt matter if we can KO her if we can't hit her. He does get good combos from throws, but Sheik's throw combos are better and work longer. And edgeguarding Sheik is much more difficult than Sheik vs Link.

 

[Dusk Pit]

So, excuse me for shunting the discussion off-topic for a moment, but has Pit (and Dark Pit by extension) actually gone up in people's estimation?

Recent developments have definitely been kind to the angels: Dark Pit's side-b buff has put him on at least equal footing with Pit (he's no longer the objectively inferior choice), Nairo busted out Pittoo against Tweek's Cloud and didn't drop a single game (as the angel; ZSS, sadly, did not fare so well) and Earth even managed to beat Ranai in...that tourney, the name of which escapes me. It's been a long week and my brain hurts.

Now I'm seeing people putting them in the same "power ranking" as Mario and Diddy - and so I'm wondering if I've missed something big in my time away from this thread, or if the Pits' consistency in patches (only noticeable changes since release have been buffs, o-kay~!) and not-insignificant results in the past few weeks have been enough to get people to pay attention. If nothing else, Dark Pit's mouth-watering ability to get a kill confirm off a hard read is not something to be understated, it's definitely something the Pits needed and helps check off one of their biggest weaknesses.

I've always thought of Pit as a slow burner: he won't get results overnight, but consistency goes a long way in a meta that can change over the course of just one patch, and reflecting a player's fundamentals at the highest level of play is a reasonably respectable gameplan.

As you were~

It's surprising how high people put Pits. I'd personally say they are in mid tier somewhere as they lack the frame data to be in high tier. I guess Nairo and earth help Pits to maintain their position.

 

[Aaron1997]

Komorikiri switched from Sonic to Cloud after being beaten game 1 and takes it from Edge in losers semis 2-1.

What a terrible character.

He beat rain in a mirror image between the 2 sets.

Also Aba went Mewtwo in Grand Finals and did really well only to lose because of jank Teleport

 

[Illuminose]

I need to get sleep now but

komorikiri upset the third best sheik in the world (edge) and another top sheik (rain) with cloud after losing g1 with sonic. this character is so good...I'm becoming convinced he doesn't actually do as bad against sheik as I initially thought.

 

[webbedspace]

Shocking revelation of today's Niconico qualifier: it's apparently perfectly OK to counterpick Mewtwo against Fox now (…as long as you absolutely, positively, don't SD thirty seconds in.) Who'd have thought?

 

[Routa]

It's surprising how high people put Pits. I'd personally say they are in mid tier somewhere as they lack the frame data to be in high tier. I guess Nairo and earth help Pits to maintain their position.

Pit(s) may not have the best frame data, but it is still above average. He has multihit Nair that comes on frame 4 and can lead into kill confirm. His Fair is multihit that comes out on frame 11(if I remember correctly it can be ACed from sh). His slowest smash attack comes out of frame 10... FRAME 10! The thing is that he might not have safety and framedata of Sheik or punish game of ZSS... What he has is... Well pretty much everything he has is above average. He doesn't have bad disadvantage state and he doesn't have awsome advantage state. He pretty much has tools for everything. And as far as I know having good advantage state, good disadvantage state, good combo game, good recovery, good kill moves/confirms etc... is a good thing. Also as far as I know there are very very very few MUs that are considered bad. But like I said he is above average in everything and that is pretty much the reason why he is considered to be in high tier.

Edit: I feel sorry for you guys who try to understand what I wrote and meant.

 

[Yonder]

He beat rain in a mirror image between the 2 sets.

Also Aba went Mewtwo in Grand Finals and did really well only to lose because of jank Teleport

Teleport glitch? The one I complained about before today? Guuuh, I hate it so much. Why doesn't Palutena have the same properties on hers? I swear Sakurai is just ... Out of his mind when he purposely gives M2 a busted teleport and Samus a busted jab. On purpose. For no reason as to how that is supposed to balance out the character.

 

[Luigi player]

Teleport glitch? The one I complained about before today? Guuuh, I hate it so much. Why doesn't Palutena have the same properties on hers? I swear Sakurai is just ... Out of his mind when he purposely gives M2 a busted teleport and Samus a busted jab. On purpose. For no reason as to how that is supposed to balance out the character.

It's pretty lame but can easily be avoided. It was weird seeing him SD because it should've been easy to angle it correctly, but I guess he has to lab that a little bit more (sadly it's also easy to mess up). Having playing Mewtwo for over 55 hours of playtime on my Wii U I feel as though it's pretty much always possible to position yourself so that you'll get the ledge instead of "glitching" away. Often you can just use your sideB to do that positioning (it's pretty safe and easy), although sometimes you'd think you'll get it and don't, even though you could've easily made it back through better positioning with sideB.
I also use sideB often to turn around while recovering, to clear my recoverypath from my opponent with doublejump bair then upB to the ledge from below or another easy angle (I haven't seen many people do that, but it's pretty good).

 

[Dre89]

I got summoned by a quote!

Link loses to Sheik and like many characters, its his worst MU. It's preposterous to suggest otherwise lol. Have you even played a good Sheik? Sheik can gimp, combo, and punish Link with ease. The only good thing in the MU is that Link can beat fair with pivot ftilt/utilt and in general outranges her. It doesnt matter if we can KO her if we can't hit her. He does get good combos from throws, but Sheik's throw combos are better and work longer. And edgeguarding Sheik is much more difficult than Sheik vs Link.

Just wanted to mention that Link's shield will block needles if he's standing still. He can slowly walk forward blocking needles, which gives him less down-time than powershielding.

I don't think Link wins or anything, because he misreads one movement from Sheik and he takes 50%. But I do think the MU is better than people would assume because she has to approach him and he's quite good at punishing horizontal approaches thanks to his range.

 

[bc1910]

You're kind of selling low-aura Lucario a bit short here. Yes, he's very weak, but it's not impossible to win or get stuff done with him. His goal is to raise the opponent's percentage to a point where he won't need so much aura to kill. THEN he can potentially get the high aura train rolling, with a lead to boot. Arbitrarily restricting yourself to only using high aura is putting undue stress upon yourself.

Lucario by his very nature IS very inconsistent; you trade efficiency at low percents for massive comeback potential and momentum. But just because Lucario is at his strongest when heavily damaged doesn't mean it's smart to always gun for it. The less he relies on his aura, the better the position he can get himself in.

Basically, just ask yourself this: would you rather be high aura Lucario 100% of the time and potentially die in one hit constantly, or start low and be able to work towards killing your opponent without high aura, then attaining it later anyway?

All the aura in the world doesn't matter if you can't hit your opponent before they kill you.

Edit: And I'm fairly certain Lucario mains get aneurysms when people just assume his strategy is "get hit then kill everyone with aura". Not only is it blatantly untrue and ineffective, it undermines the effort they have to put in to make his low aura work or sustain his high aura. It's not easy to use him successfully.

And Lucario being high percentage doesn't matter if you can't hit him before he hits you.

You phrased the question in such a way that points toward one answer being better, due to bias. So if I do that, and rephrase the exact same question, it's "would you rather have to win neutral ~15 times in a game where the top tiers can take stocks after winning neutral 3 times or less, or have to win neutral 3 times in the same game".

The other character may only have to win neutral once against high Aura Lucario to beat him, but characters like ZSS only have to win neutral 2-3 times to take a stock anyway. Needing to win neutral only once is debatable too, since Lucario can be just as slippery in neutral at high Aura and it's not wise for the top tiers to just throw out their kill moves. Often they'll need a kill setup which in turn is often a 50/50 so they may still have to win the neutral twice or more.Anyway, the point is that being at high Aura reduces the number of times Lucario is required to win neutral against good characters. The answer to your question isn't as obvious as you suggested.

Again, you phrase "get hit then kill everyone with Aura" negatively. If I were to suggest that Lucario's strategy were to "build Aura to help bridge the gap with his neutral game disparity and help his advantage state" then that sounds a lot nicer. Even though I'm saying the same thing. And that IS what Lucario does.

Sorry to "undersell" Lucario but to me he relies completely on lucky guesses - sorry, "hard reads" - and has a capacity like none other to turn matches into coin flips.

Before anyone accuses me of speaking out of salt, I don't have issues with Lucario - it's a MU I worked incredibly hard at BECAUSE I couldn't stand losing to him, and I'm pretty good at it now. However that doesn't change the way I feel about the character. Yes, he's inconsistent, which makes him unreliable at high level. We should all be thankful for that. I'm not saying he's a "problem" character but there are still huge problems with his design.

 

[Emblem Lord]

I need to get sleep now but

komorikiri upset the third best sheik in the world (edge) and another top sheik (rain) with cloud after losing g1 with sonic. this character is so good...I'm becoming convinced he doesn't actually do as bad against sheik as I initially thought.

lol

I swear yall should just listen to me when I speak on a character. I swear I'm prophetic when it comes to tier placements and match-up knowledge.

 

[Nobie]

Teleport glitch? The one I complained about before today? Guuuh, I hate it so much. Why doesn't Palutena have the same properties on hers? I swear Sakurai is just ... Out of his mind when he purposely gives M2 a busted teleport and Samus a busted jab. On purpose. For no reason as to how that is supposed to balance out the character.

Zelda and Palutena aren't immune to the Teleport jank either. I believe that they're all based on the same programming, it's just that Mewtwo's movement in the air, whether through jumping or side b-ing, is really weird and causes momentum to shfit tremendously, which then throws off the Up B.

 

[Smog Frog]

after labbing out teleport i think the reason his is so wonky can largely be attributed to one factor:

there seems to be a couple frames where he's in the endlag of teleport but not in helpless. maybe in this state he is unable to grab the ledge, but physics still apply so he can bounce off surfaces, hence the bouncing off walls thing. when i labbed out teleport the ledge thing wasn't an issue because she has an auto-aim for it, but in the state between teleport and helpless her aerial momentum seemed to be carried downwards as opposed to being carried horizontally.

 

[Djent]

A lot of things worth talking about happened at Sumabato:

-SH wins the tournament pretty convincingly with Fox.
-Cloud adds Rain and Nairo to his list of week-2 wins. Yeah, this character is top tier.
-Abadango demolished Komorikiri's Sonic, making another of MK's "bad matchups" look easy.
-Sigma finishes 7th with Toon Link, losing only to Rain.
-Pac-Man ties with Sheik for most-used character in the top 16 (at 3 each).

 

[Nu~]

Wait I wasn't watching, who was using pacman?

Aba, Tea, and who else?

 

[Emblem Lord]

MK doesnt have match-ups guys.

He has death conversion or naaaaaaaah?

 

[Baby_Sneak]

Wait I wasn't watching, who was using pacman?

Aba, Dee, and who else?

I think it was ginko

 

[bc1910]

Still far too early to be calling Cloud "top tier". Please guys, don't get carried away.

He's clearly good. But it's week 2. Let's see how he develops.

 

[Nu~]

Can someone explain just how good Tea's pacman was because I heard that he took rain to game 3.