Official Character Competitive Impressions - Tourneys, Tiers, Theories, Tactics

[Sucumbio]

Ike was a true heavy in brawl but then the Goddess Yune blessed him so now he moves a lot faster and isn't ko just for nairing off stage.

 

[Luigi player]

No one should take notice of this post, I'm just putting it out there while we wait for the 4BR or whatever they call themselves to give us something to complain about and because I'm bored late at night.

Spoiler

NOT ORDERED WITHIN GOODNESS GROUPS

Too good
Very good
Good
Kinda good
Not very good
Not even going to bother trying to place accurately

I'm amused by the label "too good", since it's generally agreed upon that these two are in need of (albeit small) nerfs.
Looks good to me generally, though I have a few qualms with some placements (I'll just mention my biggest concerns, ofc most placements will be seen different by differnet individuals):

I think Wario deserves to be higher up (at the end of 'good') even though there are almost none left that represent him. We've seen what he's capable of and I'm not even really counting his EVO result where he had so much helping customs.

Why is Duck Hunt considered so "bad" suddenly? Because he didn't gain anything for his projectiles from the shieldstun patch? Does that really make him that much worse? Or is it because almost no one uses him anymore so he doesn't get any results?
In Japan at least he has 2 people using and getting more than decent results with him. I'd put him a tier higher.

Others are: Palutena, Marth, Link... Palu and Marth seem to be generally underrated, imo, while Link is the receiver of quite nice buffs over time, even though he also got nerfed once(?), he is likely better than 'not very good'.

 

[Fatmanonice]

Speaking of swordsmen, what are peoples' ruling on Shulk and Link's latest buffs? Shulk is someone I occasionally derp around with online but it isn't a character I practice seriously so I don't know if his latest buffs were a big game changer for him.

Also, maybe too early for this but who do people think is more competitively viable: Ike or Cloud and why?

 

[Yonder]

Speaking of swordsmen, what are peoples' ruling on Shulk and Link's latest buffs? Shulk is someone I occasionally derp around with online but it isn't a character I practice seriously so I don't know if his latest buffs were a big game changer for him.

Also, maybe too early for this but who do people think is more competitively viable: Ike or Cloud and why?

Same status as before when he got .5% buffs on his move...not too notable. Sure he got bigger damage boosts now, but no one is going to be clamoring for Shulk this time. Before when he got the .5% buffs to everything, people went nuts and said he was high tier. Now, people have learned their lesson and don't really think it helped much for him.

Idk, Sakurai wants a different type of character for him. Instead of frame data improvance, Shulk gets more and more damage. Same for M2, instead of the obvious requested weight increase, he gets more power and speed. (Personally I want Sakurai to go all out with speed and power for M2 instead of weight...but I don't mind any weight buffs either).

Anyone know how awesome M2's dair is after this patch? Definitely one of the better ones and spikes in game now. Take that, his recovery, and increased speed and M2 will always pressure you off stage. Poor Cloud is gimp bait to M2.

What needs to be fixed is the stupid M2 teleportation glitch. That bounces off the stage is annoying. No excuse. And u tilt isnt fixed either. Bair is also amazing now too. And people argue with uair being a killing move now, but I like it more. Most useful hitting them off the screen perosnallt while they are in the bubble .

Oops, my post side tracked into a M2 spiel. Personally, he's upper low tide. He's better than the bottom tier Zelda, Palutena, etc. But I think he hovers around Doc's status with Doc topping off the low tier. If Abadango gets results with M2, I can see him hitting mid tier. Otherwise, no results=still low tier.

 

[S_B]

Merry Christmas, folks.

Well, Abadango just mentioned on stream that he might be using Mewtwo at Genesis 3!

And that is hype as F**K...

Heavies aren't supposed to be playable at the highest level, necessarily. As skill increases, heavies become increasingly worse due to a number of factors. Frame data becomes more important, combos are more common, etc..

But at the casual level these effects aren't in play at all, so heavies are actually some of the strongest in the game. If they made them too much stronger, it could have negative effects on other players.

Pretty much we should stop expecting heavies to be viable, since they are designed specifically not to be as you get to the highest levels of play. Maybe n a customs on meta they could get some extra tools that give them more depth, but even then it's a stretch. Not to mention we aren't in a customs on meta.

I'd agree except for the fact that other fighting games don't suffer this same issue, necessarily.

Also, like @ParanoidDrone said, the real point here is to give heavies advanced techniques that only competitive players will figure out how to use (Ding-dongs, shell shocks, etc.).

The problem isn't that ZSS and Sheik are too good for heavies, but that they're too good for a huge chunk of the roster in general.

 

[Spinosaurus]

I think Wario deserves to be higher up (at the end of 'good') even though there are almost none left that represent him. We've seen what he's capable of and I'm not even really counting his EVO result where he had so much helping customs.

Reflex? Top 8 at MLG and Tipped Off?

There's still room for development for Wario. Though he's been kinda written off ever since Abadango dropped him. :/

 

[Routa]

Also, like @ParanoidDrone said, the real point here is to give heavies advanced techniques that only competitive players will figure out how to use (Ding-dongs, shell shocks, etc.).

Throw into an attack counts as advanced technique that only competitive players will figure out?
1) Casual players aren't as stupid as you guys may think
2) I wouldn't count simple throw combos as "advanced technique".

 

[RonNewcomb]

I'd agree except for the fact that other fighting games don't suffer this same issue, necessarily.

Also, like @ParanoidDrone said, the real point here is to give heavies advanced techniques that only competitive players will figure out how to use (Ding-dongs, shell shocks, etc.).

Other fighting games aren't balanced for casuals first like Smash is.

Throw combos aren't competitive only. Between casual and competitive are the competent players, who use throw combos. Perfect Pivots belong to the realm of competitive players.

 

[S_B]

Throw into an attack counts as advanced technique that only competitive players will figure out?
1) Casual players aren't as stupid as you guys may think
2) I would count simple throw combos as "advanced technique".

Is there any agreed upon definition of "casual"?

My definition is people who generally still mash the c-stick for KOs, play with all items on... In other words, people who play it as a PARTY game.

If you're playing 1v1 FG, you've already left the realm of casual, IMO. All of the players I'd consider casual barely even know how to shield or grab...

I don't consider FG players to be "competitive", but they're at the point where they should be going online to find out advanced techniques for characters and whatnot.

 

[MajorMajora]

Merry Christmas, folks.



And that is hype as F**K...



I'd agree except for the fact that other fighting games don't suffer this same issue, necessarily.

Also, like @ParanoidDrone said, the real point here is to give heavies advanced techniques that only competitive players will figure out how to use (Ding-dongs, shell shocks, etc.).

The problem isn't that ZSS and Sheik are too good for heavies, but that they're too good for a huge chunk of the roster in general.

Well understand they can't be too easy to use, otherwise they'd overtake the low-level competitive population.

But I agree that ZSS and Sheik are big issues here. They need to get nerfed down more than heavies need buffs, since they hold everyone back. I'm really tired of seeing sheik after sheik, it makes competitive dull.

If you ask me, it's best for competitive for the most complex characters to be the strongest. Shulk, Rosa (already top tier), pac-man, cloud, bayonetta, etc..

Routa I'm talking about casuals as people who play with items on and probably don't even know what a tech is. The 10-year-olds who think ganondorf is OP and whose favorite stage is Temple. You don't have to play in tournaments to be 'competitive'.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Before when he got the .5% buffs to everything, people went nuts and said he was high tier.

Nobody ever actually said that though?

 

[S_B]

If you ask me, it's best for competitive for the most complex characters to be the strongest. Shulk, Rosa (already top tier), pac-man, cloud, bayonetta, etc..

I think it's best if the game has as many viable characters as possible, and though it's extremely difficulty for this to happen, it would be ideal if EVERY character were at least somewhat viable to the point where you bring the player, not the character.

I think you'd see a lot of characters rise in viability if Sheik/ZSS got the nerfs they need, mainly for them to have something that can be punished aside from maybe ONE move a piece...

 

[meleebrawler]

Levels of skill:

• Noob (Doesn't know all basic controls, tendency to spam specials)
• Newb (Similar, but with an earnest desire to improve. First-time players basically)
• Casual (Understands the basic controls, but no real desire to practice for competitive settings)
• Competent (Good fundamentals, may or may not compete but does not have much experience with advanced techniques)
• Competitive (The people you usually see at major tournaments)
• Pro (The very best competitive players)

 

[Ulevo]

People overrate Zero Suit Samus. She is a very good character, but saying she holds characters back when we have characters like Rosalina and Meta Knight who do so significantly more is silly. She also has counterplay.

Sheik is nonsense.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

People overrate Sheik. She is a very good character, but saying she holds characters back when we have characters like Ryu and Fox who do significantly more is silly. She also has counterplay.

Zero Suit Samus is nonsense.

 

[Smooth Criminal]

People overrate Zero Suit Samus. She is a very good character, but saying she holds characters back when we have characters like Rosalina and Meta Knight who do so significantly more is silly. She also has counterplay.

Sheik is nonsense.

People overrate Sheik. She is a very good character, but saying she holds characters back when we have characters like Ryu and Fox who do significantly more is silly. She also has counterplay.

Zero Suit Samus is nonsense.

This thread in a nutshell, ladies and gents.

Merry Christmas.

Smooth Criminal

 

[Fatmanonice]

People overrate Zero Suit Samus. She is a very good character, but saying she holds characters back when we have characters like Rosalina and Meta Knight who do so significantly more is silly. She also has counterplay.

Sheik is nonsense.

This. Rosalina is a terror to good portion of the cast (Ness, Bowser Jr, and Megaman are examples I'm all too familiar with) and shuts down a fair number of characters. The only saving grace about Rosalina is nobody plays as her. People typically complain more about Yoshi but, from how I see it, Yoshi is the competitive equivalent of the tiny dog at your friend's house that continuously barks at you and then runs away when you try to approach it while Rosalina is the giant, overexcited dog that jumps all over you and has to be forcibly put outside for it to leave you alone.

 

[wedl!!]

"...from how I see it, Yoshi is the competitive equivalent of the tiny dog at your friend's house that continuously barks at you and then runs away when you try to approach it while Rosalina is the giant, overexcited dog that jumps all over you and has to be forcibly put outside for it to leave you alone."

this should be framed

 

[Smog Frog]

it's a misconception that destroys . is it a good matchup for ? yes. is it worse than 6:4? no. destroys almost as hard offstage as she destroys him. people seem too focused on "lol gp" to get into the matchup further.

 

[Deathcarter]

If you ask me, it's best for competitive for the most complex characters to be the strongest. Shulk, Rosa (already top tier), pac-man, cloud, bayonetta, etc..

The strongest characters should be the ones who still have actual counter play against them rather than the ones who are hardest to use. Pre-patch Diddy and Brawl Meta Knight would still be inexcusably overpowered even if took as much effort to be as good with them as say Melee Fox.

 

[Blue Banana]

I don't know.

If you ever played against a really good Olimar in Brawl you'd know how frightening his damage output and KO power was. Smash 4 Olmar has NOTHING on that tbph. Perhaps summoning the one and only @Dabuz can help us shedding some light on that issue?

What about Myran and @Angbad? Both are high-level Olimar players who are PR'd in their respective regions.

 

[Dusk Pit]

Speaking of Duck Hunt, I think he is the second worst character in the game. He is just so underwhelming that I really wonder why they don't buff him. Like, his smashes don't connect properly, one of the worst recoveries in the game, mediocre projectiles and frame data, can' t kill in general, no kill throws, few combos...

 

[Routa]

DHD might lack in thous parts, but very few characters can set out as good traps as DHD can. But I think I should let @DunnoBro explain. He is our go to guy when it comes to DHD.

 

[Dre89]

Man the way some Aussies raved about Wii Fit a while back you'd think it was more than one.

(To be fair I suspect that Wii Fit does more than Aerolink's Palutena but what do I know)

A lot of Aussie players just have biased opinions due to player skill.

There's people in Queensland who think Falcon is top 5 because their top player bodies everyone except the second best player with him.

 

[Fatmanonice]

Why is Duck Hunt considered so "bad" suddenly? Because he didn't gain anything for his projectiles from the shieldstun patch? Does that really make him that much worse? Or is it because almost no one uses him anymore so he doesn't get any results?
In Japan at least he has 2 people using and getting more than decent results with him. I'd put him a tier higher.

Duck Hunt hasn't been considered good for a long time, probably since at least the spring. The character has slowly become the most special snowflake in the game, especially after Shulk and Robin's multiple buff dumps in the past year. The character suffers from several big problems: a slow recovery, almost no reliable kill options and the ones he does have are awkward as hell, few close combat options, and terrible landing options. When the game first came out, he was the King of Projectiles but then people caught onto the basic strategies and whittled away at them. Villager, Megaman, ROB, and even Lucas have more effective camping strategies, better rewards for constant shielders, and aren't at a huge loss if their projectiles fall through for most match ups. For example, I'd argue that Villager can switch gears against Rosalina but Duck Hunt can't as well especially if she gets close. Customs getting banned was another thing that really hurt Duck Hunt too. As for the Japanese, some characters are just more effective there due to different playstyles. Duck Hunt, Dedede, Pit, and Villager are almost entirely different characters overthere because of this but I'd still argue that Duck Hunt is far from viable on his own worldwide.

 

[Myran]

I don't know.

If you ever played against a really good Olimar in Brawl you'd know how frightening his damage output and KO power was. Smash 4 Olmar has NOTHING on that tbph. Perhaps summoning the one and only @Dabuz can help us shedding some light on that issue?

If there's some misconceptions about Olimar I'm happy to clear them up. His damage output, and kill potential are still both ridiculous. He can also put out very strong shield pressure with the proper lineup. If you're looking for actual Olimar I wouldn't consider calling Dabuz either.

Tbh I'm not sure where the idea that Olimar didn't have similar kill power came from. He still hits like a truck.

 

[Solfiner]

Speaking of swordsmen, what are peoples' ruling on Shulk and Link's latest buffs? Shulk is someone I occasionally derp around with online but it isn't a character I practice seriously so I don't know if his latest buffs were a big game changer for him.

Also, maybe too early for this but who do people think is more competitively viable: Ike or Cloud and why?

Sorry for being a bit late but the buff that actually makes a difference is 2 frames less landing lag with Nair, since he can wall a bit easier now. For the other aerials it doesn't make much of a difference since you want to MALLC most of the time.

 

[MajorMajora]

The strongest characters should be the ones who still have actual counter play against them rather than the ones who are hardest to use. Pre-patch Diddy and Brawl Meta Knight would still be inexcusably overpowered even if took as much effort to be as good with them as say Melee Fox.

True. This is a lot more important. Still, a lot of counterplay is in Rosa's luma and cloud's limit break and pac's hydrant.

Honestly the problem with Rosa is that not enough of her power is centralized in Luma, so there's not enough reward for protecting/killing luma.

 

[Ghostbone]

@ Wii Fit trainer being top 20

I don't see it. We have Sheik, ZSS, Rosalina, Ryu, Sonic, Diddy, Fox, Mario, MK, Pikachu, ROB, Captain Falcon, Villager, Pit, Dark Pit, Ness, Olimar, Luigi, Mega Man, Greninja, Peach, Ike, Pac Man, and Yoshi all with claims to top 20. That's 24 right there and they are all pretty reasonable. Almost every single one of those characters has had at least a top 16 showing at a national/international in the US multiple times, and a large number of them at least one top 8. (I want to say all of them have been top 16 multiple times, only not 100% sure on Yoshi and Pit but I think they have).

Wii fit is better than Olimar, Mega Man, Greninja, Peach and Pac Man, possibly Pit but they're probably around the same spot.
She's at least in the same group as them. (along with G&W and Lucario who you ignored)

If we're talking about results, the obvious ones I know are that there were two wii fits in top 32 of Evo (customs but that was also before her buffs iirc), John #s has beat Vinnie very recently (and False? at least gone super close), Anti has played Wii fit in top 5, and if you've ever watched him and ZeRo play he legitimately goes back and forth against ZeRo with Wii Fit (and it's not like he doesn't know the matchup, they play all the time), which is probably the most crucial evidence tbh, since a character that isn't high tier isn't actually capable of that.

We see Megamans get shut down by Sheiks, the best Pac Man dropped the character, Greninja's don't do that well in strong regions, etc. There are less Wii Fits I guess, but the Wii Fits that do exist (John #s and Anti) do really well with the character.

 

[Teshie U]

This. Rosalina is a terror to good portion of the cast (Ness, Bowser Jr, and Megaman are examples I'm all too familiar with) and shuts down a fair number of characters. The only saving grace about Rosalina is nobody plays as her. People typically complain more about Yoshi but, from how I see it, Yoshi is the competitive equivalent of the tiny dog at your friend's house that continuously barks at you and then runs away when you try to approach it while Rosalina is the giant, overexcited dog that jumps all over you and has to be forcibly put outside for it to leave you alone.

Doesn't megaman kind of counter Rosalina? I don't think she likes approaching people.

 

[Myran]

Wii fit is better than Olimar, Mega Man, Greninja, Peach and Pac Man, possibly Pit but they're probably around the same spot.
She's at least in the same group as them. (along with G&W and Lucario who you ignored)

If we're talking about results, the obvious ones I know are that there were two wii fits in top 32 of Evo (customs but that was also before her buffs iirc), John #s has beat Vinnie very recently (and False? at least gone super close), Anti has played Wii fit in top 5, and if you've ever watched him and ZeRo play he legitimately goes back and forth against ZeRo with Wii Fit (and it's not like he doesn't know the matchup, they play all the time), which is probably the most crucial evidence tbh, since a character that isn't high tier isn't actually capable of that.

We see Megamans get shut down by Sheiks, the best Pac Man dropped the character, Greninja's don't do that well in strong regions, etc. There are less Wii Fits I guess, but the Wii Fits that do exist (John #s and Anti) do really well with the character.

Gonna strongly disagree with WFT being better than Olimar. He has one of the strongest camping abilities, can combo until around 70ish off a throw, has a strong kill throw, and just ridiculous kill moves some of which are safe on shield. Not to mention how much pressure he can put out with 2 or 3 purples.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

This. Rosalina is a terror to good portion of the cast (Ness, Bowser Jr, and Megaman are examples I'm all too familiar with) and shuts down a fair number of characters. The only saving grace about Rosalina is nobody plays as her.

More like, Rosalina's saving grace is the fact that nobody plays ZSS [yet]. She'd drop so hard if people just used ZSS some more.

What about Myran and @Angbad? Both are high-level Olimar players who are PR'd in their respective regions.

I specifically tagged dabuz because he was the best Olimar in Brawl for some time. I don't even know whether Myran played Brawl or not tbh.

If there's some misconceptions about Olimar I'm happy to clear them up. His damage output, and kill potential are still both ridiculous. He can also put out very strong shield pressure with the proper lineup. If you're looking for actual Olimar I wouldn't consider calling Dabuz either.

Tbh I'm not sure where the idea that Olimar didn't have similar kill power came from. He still hits like a truck.

His damage out put and KO power are not ridiculous though. That's a stretch. Good, yes. Ridiculous? The amount of damage Olimar used to be able to dish out in Brawl ... that's what I call ridiculous. When I think of 'ridiculous' damage output I think of somebody like Ryu who'll do like nair -> fair to half a stock's worth of guaranteed damage.

 

[Myran]

More like, Rosalina's saving grace is the fact that nobody plays ZSS [yet]. She'd drop so hard if people just used ZSS some more.



I specifically tagged dabuz because he was the best Olimar in Brawl for some time. I don't even know whether Myran played Brawl or not tbh.



His damage out put and KO power are not ridiculous though. That's a stretch. Good, yes. Ridiculous? The amount of damage Olimar used to be able to dish out in Brawl ... that's what I call ridiculous. When I think of 'ridiculous' damage output I think of somebody like Ryu who'll do like nair -> fair to half a stock's worth of guaranteed damage.

Olimar can easily get 60% off one throw before the opponents touches the ground. His damage output is pretty ridiculous when most of the moves he does it with have little lag.

I came into Brawl in 2013, and was never a top Olimar like him in Brawl. However in Smash 4 I'd wager I know the character better than anyone.

The issue when fighting someone like Olimar is you have to go in to prevent him from farming purples, but unless you approach extremely well, Olimar will eat you up. Once he gets 2-3 purples he can essentially do whatever he wants on the stage.

 

[Man Li Gi]

I have a term to reference Ganon, Charizard, KD3, DK, and Bowser......giants.

Someone said that grab followups make them better, then why does Ganon not have one? If he did have a hell of a better time even with his absolutely booty grab distance.

 

[meleebrawler]

I have a term to reference Ganon, Charizard, KD3, DK, and Bowser......giants.

Someone said that grab followups make them better, then why does Ganon not have one? If he did have a hell of a better time even with his absolutely booty grab distance.

Probably because they think Flame Choke tech-chases are good enough.

In fact it's general trend that if you have at least decent range on your command grab, your normal one is short, like Robin and Mewtwo.

 

[SaltyKracka]

I have a term to reference Ganon, Charizard, KD3, DK, and Bowser......giants.

Someone said that grab followups make them better, then why does Ganon not have one? If he did have a hell of a better time even with his absolutely booty grab distance.

They could do it if they wanted. Would just have to buff his SideB.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Wii fit is better than Olimar, Mega Man, Greninja, Peach and Pac Man, possibly Pit but they're probably around the same spot.
She's at least in the same group as them. (along with G&W and Lucario who you ignored)

If we're talking about results, the obvious ones I know are that there were two wii fits in top 32 of Evo (customs but that was also before her buffs iirc), John #s has beat Vinnie very recently (and False? at least gone super close), Anti has played Wii fit in top 5, and if you've ever watched him and ZeRo play he legitimately goes back and forth against ZeRo with Wii Fit (and it's not like he doesn't know the matchup, they play all the time), which is probably the most crucial evidence tbh, since a character that isn't high tier isn't actually capable of that.

We see Megamans get shut down by Sheiks, the best Pac Man dropped the character, Greninja's don't do that well in strong regions, etc. There are less Wii Fits I guess, but the Wii Fits that do exist (John #s and Anti) do really well with the character.

Can't really count the EVO results sadly as much as I love customs, Wii Fit is a completely different beast there even before the patch.

MegaMan has gotten top 8 at MLG. That's pretty darn significant considering the size of that tournament. PacMan has lost a main but still has their results from when they used him over in NA. Dark Pit shows up in tandem at least because of Nairo, and well Pit has to be right around Dark Pit. Peach I know for sure has a very recent 9th place showing at a major tournament. Greninja I admit I'm a bit more sketchy on results wise upon reflection.

Going back and forth with Zero =/= auto high tier. There is no correlation between the two. Even the best player can have weird MUs where mentally they just don't do as well against them. Just that with Zero where most high level players end up dropping games against them, he goes more back and forth against them. You need more than just that to claim top 20 status. That's kinda like... well the people claiming Cloud is amazing because Nairo lost to one (apparently on purpose by the looks in order to get data for an upcoming major).

Like I said, Wii Fit is like in that second category of characters. Those are by no means bad characters. They ultimately lack the level of national/international results that the others above them have so they end up in that category. If they had more dedicated mains they would probably be in that upper group. Again to stress this: I'm going by typical smashboards official tier criteria which is NA as the most important region for results, and EU second. So John and Anti's results do help yes, but that's how she gets to that level in the first place.

Get them to go out to more tournaments of the Paragon/MLG/EVO (without customs) level and get top 16 results there with Wii Fit. Then I could consider them potentially around 20th then. Until then she's stuck in the 25th-30th range with G&W and company: too many other characters with national/international level results.

 

[Fatmanonice]

Doesn't megaman kind of counter Rosalina? I don't think she likes approaching people.

That's the thing though, Rosalina easily forces him to approach. Gravity pull sucks up his projectiles and even lays the metal blade at her feet to use. Luma also gets in the way a lot and is an effective shield against usmash, fsmash, the lemons, crash bomb, and the sweet spot of bair. Get Luma out of there and it's easier but I feel like a good portion of the match up is centered around killing Luma as fast as possible and then using the respawn time as best as you can because Luma nullifies a lot of options.

it's a misconception that destroys . is it a good matchup for ? yes. is it worse than 6:4? no. destroys almost as hard offstage as she destroys him. people seem too focused on "lol gp" to get into the matchup further.

I'd argue otherwise because I feel any good Ness gets stopped dead in their tracks in major tournaments by competent Rosalina's and it's just painful to watch. The crowd will be losing their minds supporting the Ness players while the Rosalina player is being actively booed because it's almost become a cliche that you know how it's going to end when you see this match up come up.

 

[**Gilgamesh**]

it's a misconception that destroys . is it a good matchup for ? yes. is it worse than 6:4? no. destroys almost as hard offstage as she destroys him. people seem too focused on "lol gp" to get into the matchup further.

Um... shaky and I'm pretty sure Nakat has stated that MU is stupid for Ness to play against at top level where a simple read of his Double Jump costs him a stock

Edit: Nakat has even said that the MU is a death sentence for solo ness mains.

 

[HoSmash4]

it's a misconception that destroys . is it a good matchup for ? yes. is it worse than 6:4? no. destroys almost as hard offstage as she destroys him. people seem too focused on "lol gp" to get into the matchup further.

Yep I kinda agree when normally ness is only is forced to use pkt2 when his double jump is gone and normally when his double jump is kinda he'll be dead against a significant portion of the cast. Only difference with Rosalina is that he is 100% dead once his dj is taken.