Official Character Competitive Impressions - Tourneys, Tiers, Theories, Tactics

[FullMoon]

Huh, so Some was eliminated by a Bowser. The buffs are real I guess.

And blocked by Sheik again, though I heard Some was being especially bad at playing this MU.

 

[Zannabluke]

anyone knows who jill(5th) and lean (7th) respectively play/played during the latest umebura?

 

[juddy96]

anyone knows who jill(5th) and lean (7th) respectively play/played during the latest umebura?

Jill and Lean and maybe some

 

[SapphSabre777]

(I typically do not post a lot here, so bear with me)

It is interesting to see Rain pick Cloud right after he was eliminated in the qualifiers by Komorikiri. It seems, at least to me, that there is starting to be a trend currently where people are picking Cloud as a secondary because the players picking him up know barely anyone, or even no one, has any sort of decent MU experience against Cloud, and they are weaponizing it, which is a smart, tactical approach.

Emblem Lord also mentioned a few pages back about him being "pretty braindead", in verbatim iirc. This also somewhat enforces and drives this sort of movement we are seeing, seeing as it is arguably "easier" to understand the character to a proficient or even distinguished level of play that can allow the player better chances to win, or better chances of winning faster than with other characters. It is because of how "braindead" Cloud is, I feel, that his character meta will advance far more in advance than what we expected, thus possibly further prolonging this MU inexperience state.

I do not even know when to call Cloud's position in the meta. I think it is safe to say he is at least viable, but "How much?" is the big question. At the rate this meta is changing thanks to Cloud at least for the short-term, where people are going to pocket him or even main him to take advantage of the MU inexperience and the ease-of-use for the character, and then expanding upon those two variables. If this is the trend that is going to continue, then I'll be honest, I do not know if a single month would be enough to find out, or even longer for that matter. Only time and advancements to experience will tell.

 

[Nobie]

One thing I like about this community is that you don't see very many post-patch Johns, at least not in the "buffs" direction.

No one's calling out Lucario players from benefiting too much from their buffs, or saying that Lucario winning Sumabura is because of the patch.

 

[S_B]

Huh, so Some was eliminated by a Bowser. The buffs are real I guess.

And blocked by Sheik again, though I heard Some was being especially bad at playing this MU.

Do we have any videos of that match?

That would be the first time I've ever even HEARD of a Japanese player using Bowser in a tournament...

 

[Djent]

The Bowser player who eliminated Some was Shu, previously known for playing Sheik and finishing 3rd at the Umebura qualifiers. I am not sure if he now mains Bowser or was merely experimenting this tournament, though I would guess the latter. In any case, he'll be at the Niconico-sponsored Tokaigi championships in a month, so we shall see.

 

[|RK|]

Trivia: Both of the Grand Finals participants (KEN (Sonic) and Motsunabe (Ryu, Lucario)) eliminated Rain (Sheik, Cloud), and both went to third game and won with the clutchiest clutches since the invention of manual transmission. Despite getting third, the tournament felt like it was Rain's to lose.

Unrelated trivia: It's funny that the guy has a Ryu and Lucario, since Lucario is often doing his best Ryu impression.

 

[Djmarcus44]

I don't think he's necessarily viable, he's still going to lose to the top tiers like everyone else. I just don't understand how people can put him in bottom 10 (or near last like ESAM) when it is clear that his neutral game is really good. I think he flaws put him right in the middle of mid tier, but that's a long ways away from bottom 10

People place Duck Hunt low on tier lists because Duck Hunt has not gotten a lot of tournament results in the US lately (his usage has also decreased in Japan). Tournament results are a huge factor in tier lists, and this is the reason why Mii Gunner is lower on the tier list than Duck Hunt despite having a better neutral, advantage, and disadvantage than Duck Hunt.

Mii Gunner's neutral is better than Duck Hunt's because of the lack of priority in Duck Hunt's projectiles, and the amount of strong options that Gunner has. Mii Gunner's advantage is better because Gunner doesn't have as many killing problems (due to faster smashes and a frame 5 up tilt that kills around 135), and Gunner gets more reward from throws (including the ability to kill most of the cast before 120% with up throw to up air after a DI read, and down throw to up air to kill after up throw to up air stops working). Mii Gunner's disadvantage state is better than Duck Hunt's because Gunner's recovery is not as gimpable, and Gunner has more resistance to combos while being heavier.

Spoiler: Mii Gunner's viability analysis

Mii Gunner has one of the best neutral games in all of Smash 4 with 1111 and with 3312, Gunner's best moveset. This is due to the excellent projectiles Mii Gunner has, and the movement options that Gunner gets when using them. Mii Gunner also has other moves that are good in the neutral (nair, bair, and pp ftilt to retreat). Mii Gunner also has decent mobility due to a good foxtrot, (it has a value of 1.6, the average run speed of a character), good airspeed (tied for 25th), good aerial acceleration, (tied for 15th) and a gundash that is as fast as a falcon kick without any landing lag. Mii Gunner also has a good juggling and edgeguarding game (his/her combo game is a work in progress, but there are some good true combos and follow ups in the Mii Gunner true combo and follow up thread). Killing with Gunner isn't very easy, but Gunner has a good variety of kill setups (including a kill confirm with 3312 gunner). In addition, mii gunner has good frame data on some killing options (frame 5 up tilt that kills around 135 depending on weight and a frame 9 down smash with good killing power for a smash attack). Mii Gunner also has a solid disadvantage state (although our only combo breaker is our frame 3 reflector, and it's weak hitbox gives it situational use for that purpose) especially with 3312. Bomb drop allows Gunner to land safely in most matchups, and gundashing, flame pillar, stalling with reflector (with 1111 gunner), and lunar launch are also good mix ups to land. Although Mii Gunner is somewhat easy to combo and edgeguard in comparison to the rest of the cast, Mii Gunner is good at surviving since Gunner has a good weight along with the option to gundash to the stage to mix up recovery. Mii Gunner's disadvantage state is also helped by being difficult to jab lock. Although Mii Gunner doesn't have many players to develop his/her metagame or to represent him/her in tournaments, Mii Gunner is definitely not a bad competitive pick relative to the rest of the cast.

Although Duck Hunt's neutral is very good, his lack of tournament results relative to other characters, killing problems, and gimpable recovery keep him out of mid tier.

 

[Thinkaman]

Shameless plug: I made a thread about the wonders of SHAD.

 

[Big-Cat]

Huh, so Some was eliminated by a Bowser. The buffs are real I guess.

And blocked by Sheik again, though I heard Some was being especially bad at playing this MU.

Oh they very much are. In my opinion, Cloud may be good against a number of high tiered characters, but he has a hard time with Bowser from what I've experienced. Of course, a lot of this is for glory Cloud, but the UThrow buff now says to use aerials wisely, not liberally.

That being said, I believe playing Bowser or any punisher character requires some understanding of human fear. While Showtime UAir is indeed a true combo, you still need DI reads. Once they're scared, they're going to DI towards a safe spot, be it off stage or center stage. That's where the real showtime begins.

 

[TTTTTsd]

Oh they very much are. In my opinion, Cloud may be good against a number of high tiered characters, but he has a hard time with Bowser from what I've experienced. Of course, a lot of this is for glory Cloud, but the UThrow buff now says to use aerials wisely, not liberally.

That being said, I believe playing Bowser or any punisher character requires some understanding of human fear. While Showtime UAir is indeed a true combo, you still need DI reads. Once they're scared, they're going to DI towards a safe spot, be it off stage or center stage. That's where the real showtime begins.

Cloud gets punished super hard but I don't trust For Glory Clouds lol. Most of the ones I've run into don't play him properly IMO, they don't camp/abuse his general strengths really well. This may or may not have changed but yeah.

I won't deny though that the punish game in this MU, both ways, is pretty real. First significant juggle/hit wins IMO, Cloud doesn't let Bowser get down very easy and the same applies to Bowser when he grabs/gets a hold of Cloud.

 

[Big-Cat]

I suppose then the matchup is rather even, maybe a 45:55 for one of the other. It's very close. Meanwhile, I can't say the if Sheik matchup got better for Bowser for certain. It didn't change the Rosalina one too much because of both her floatiness and weight keeping you out of showtime followups. I'll have to test more though.

EDIT: There IS one thing you can do with Luma though. While Rosalina is in hitstun, knock Luma away.

 

[Fatmanonice]

One thing I like about this community is that you don't see very many post-patch Johns, at least not in the "buffs" direction.

No one's calling out Lucario players from benefiting too much from their buffs, or saying that Lucario winning Sumabura is because of the patch.

I think this is because a lot of the community widely agrees that most of the buffs and nerfs so far have been reasonable and fair. While some characters like Duck Hunt and Jigglypuff have been glaringly glanced over, those that have been touched by Sakurai's magic finger have had adjustments made to them that they they needed and there haven't been too many nerfs/buffs where you people say "why the hell was this changed?" Even as far back as the summer, I've made posts talking about how a lot of characters were garbage when the game first came out but have since have been mostly fixed or even become viable in the process. have all had some nice adjustments with nearly half of this list becoming either viable or borderline viable thanks to them while (and then arguably buffed to viability again later) have gotten nerfs I would define as reasonable.

 

[Wintropy]

Except for Dark Pit's side-b buff in 1.1.3, Pit and Dark Pit have only received relatively minor buffs since release. They were considered viable long before the most recent patch; the only notable effect it's had so far is that it's made Dark Pit even more viable, and no longer a straight-up inferior clone of Pit.

Just wanted to correct you on that. I do not recall them ever being considered "garbage", and they have been mostly untouched since 1.0.0.

 

[FullMoon]

Honestly with shieldstun changes and the buffs he got during this game's patch history, Greninja is easily better than he was on release. If he isn't top tier now, then he surely wasn't on 1.0.0.

Silly Up-Smash and Hydro Pump can only get you so far.

 

[Wintropy]

Honestly with shieldstun changes and the buffs he got during this game's patch history, Greninja is easily better than he was on release. If he isn't top tier now, then he surely wasn't on 1.0.0.

Silly Up-Smash and Hydro Pump can only get you so far.

I think a lot of that was due to misconceptions and very early impressions, to be honest. Remember that this was back in the day when Duck Hunt was considered one of the best characters, due to the fact that nobody had yet figured out how to circumvent his wall-heavy neutral game and realise he has severe difficulty killing. First impressions can really skew our understanding of a character's viability.

Not to say he wasn't a good character on release, because he absolutely was, but I think it's a relative definition of "good". Now that we have a better understanding of the roster and the meta's developed a bit, I think it's fair to say Greninja's a solid character, even relative to everybody else.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Oh they very much are. In my opinion, Cloud may be good against a number of high tiered characters, but he has a hard time with Bowser from what I've experienced. Of course, a lot of this is for glory Cloud, but the UThrow buff now says to use aerials wisely, not liberally.

That being said, I believe playing Bowser or any punisher character requires some understanding of human fear. While Showtime UAir is indeed a true combo, you still need DI reads. Once they're scared, they're going to DI towards a safe spot, be it off stage or center stage. That's where the real showtime begins.

you are too intelligent for this bull**** man

 

[Big-Cat]

you are too intelligent for this bull**** man

Hence why I said the results may not be accurate of GOOD Clouds. Though if anything, it shows what NOT to do against Bowser - rush with Cloud. I've told local Clouds to not be afraid of going RANGEKI RANGEKI RANGEKI RANGEKI with Cloud.

 

[Fatmanonice]

On the topic of Cloud, I like how his limit break works. It makes me wish Little Mac's KO punch worked similarly, like his KO punch would be used as a recovery or his Rising Uppercut would go higher like Cloud's Climhazzard. Cloud is a character that has huge weaknesses but at least the Limit Break helps counter that. For Little Mac, he's just always stuck with his weaknesses. I don't feel like this would break the character either, just give him more options instead of being "welp, guess this is how I die" so often. I get the concept behind Little Mac but it's kind of overkill if you ask me. From a design standpoint, I feel like Cloud is how you should approach characters if you want to make them have obvious weaknesses.

 

[SaltyKracka]

On the topic of Cloud, I like how his limit break works. It makes me wish Little Mac's KO punch worked similarly, like his KO punch would be used as a recovery or his Rising Uppercut would go higher like Cloud's Climhazzard. Cloud is a character that has huge weaknesses but at least the Limit Break helps counter that. For Little Mac, he's just always stuck with his weaknesses. I don't feel like this would break the character either, just give him more options instead of being "welp, guess this is how I die" so often. I get the concept behind Little Mac but it's kind of overkill if you ask me. From a design standpoint, I feel like Cloud is how you should approach characters if you want to make them have obvious weaknesses.

No, Superheavies are how you make characters with obvious weaknesses.

And then have them crippled by those weaknesses.

Also blah blah Mac's design is terrible and KO punch is the worst part of it, addendum about Limit Charge being never a bad option, Ctrl+F irritation about Sakurai favoritism.

 

[S_B]

you are too intelligent for this bull**** man

To be fair, I've not seen any tournament videos of good Clouds vs. good Bowsers yet.

I've seen so-so Clouds getting wrecked by Bowsers, but that doesn't tell us much.

I'd love to see Vinnie or Tweak's Cloud vs. a solid Bowser, but it would have to be in friendlies because they'd probably opt to use Sheik or BJ respectively in an actual competitive match...

 

[Emblem Lord]

Bowser at mid level is gonna wreck alot of chars.

He runs faster then Marth and has huge grab reward.

Simple as that.

 

[Big-Cat]

Thing is that it's not impossible for a high tier character to beat other high tiers, but to have a struggle against a lower ranking character. It's unlikely, but it's not impossible.

 

[wedl!!]

People don't seem to really understand the concept that just because a character is high tier they can lose to characters that are lower tier. They just think they're so high up they're invincible.

IE Ryu is top 5 but loses to characters like Pacman and MM who are higher end of mid tier because they kinda poop on him in neutral.

This is going to devolve into a "tiers don exits" debate so we should just stop the discussion here.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Match-ups are the interaction of tools. In this regard, tiers are completely irrelevant.

 

[S_B]

I'll be honest: other than his grab reward, I don't think Bowser has much of anything over Cloud.

Cloud can force an approach by Bowser simply by charging his LB. Liberal use of Nair by Cloud will also be a gigantic pain in Bowser's arse, and Cloud has a legitimate projectile, unlike Bowser.

Also, Cloud's Dair may as well be called "The Bowser Spiker™".

To be fair, Bowser COULD have an edge over Cloud and I'm just not seeing it, but as I said, I'm not seeing it.

Match-ups are the interaction of tools. In this regard, tiers are completely irrelevant.

Yeah, tiers are the result of us figuring out matchups.

 

[Big-Cat]

This is why I'm of the belief we should have a matchup ranking tier list. Something like this old tier list ranking. http://www.eventhubs.com/guides/2008/oct/17/street-fighter-4-tiers-character-rankings/

I'll be honest: other than his grab reward, I don't think Bowser has much of anything over Cloud.

Cloud can force an approach by Bowser simply by charging his LB. Liberal use of Nair by Cloud will also be a gigantic pain in Bowser's arse, and Cloud has a legitimate projectile, unlike Bowser.

Also, Cloud's Dair may as well be called "The Bowser Spiker™".

Bowser's fire breath is really a poke tool. Use it like a projectile and you're asking for it.

 

[S_B]

This is why I'm of the belief we should have a matchup ranking tier list. Something like this old tier list ranking. http://www.eventhubs.com/guides/2008/oct/17/street-fighter-4-tiers-character-rankings/

Yeah, we've had these for past SSB games. Do we have one for 4? I've yet to find it if we do...

Bowser's fire breath is really a poke tool. Use it like a projectile and you're asking for it.

Use it like anything except recovery harassment and you're generally asking for it.

 

[Big-Cat]

Use it like anything except recovery harassment and you're generally asking for it.

About that. I use this to keep Rosalina at bay while whittling away at Luma.

 

[S_B]

About that. I use this to keep Rosalina at bay while whittling away at Luma.

Yeah, Rosa is a pretty good character to use it against. I wouldn't recommend using it against any fast characters, though, lest they jump over it...

Also, on the subject of Bowsers and Clouds:

Calm Animal did fine against Karna's Cloud but then lost pretty hard to his Sheik.

Again, this could be due to the fact that people still haven't figured out how to get the absolute most out of Cloud yet. Also, it might have to do with the fact that Bowser can fight Cloud in a similar manner to Ike and get decent results.

 

[Big-Cat]

When you put it like that, you can say that about any character. Any character can jump over a fireball.

 

[TTTTTsd]

Bowser U-Throw is amazing against Rosa from what I can tell, yes. I believe he's invincible within his shell and the hit scatters away Luma as well. That being said, going in and getting that grab is annoying but at least it's plausibly rewarded. Additionally this can also kill Luma based on positioning I imagine.

 

[Locke 06]

Bowser gets more reward for outplaying his opponent. If you were going to beat your opponent before, you will beat them harder.

How many normal grabs do people allow Bowser to get?

 

[Lavani]

Additionally this can also kill Luma based on positioning I imagine.

When I saw the splash hit buffed to 200KBG 100BKB I was somewhat worried about this.

Fortunately for Luma, 0° + gravity means it just gets shot into the floor a few feet away from Bowser, so it's not killing Luma unless he's right on the ledge, and it's also a really precise hitbox so it may not even hit Luma to begin with.

EDIT: Though of course the more damage Luma's taken the further it'll fly, but since Luma won't bounce/slide on the ground it needs to be close to death% anyway to kill it with uthrow away from the ledge.

EDIT2: He's also not invincible beyond what you'd normally get from a throw, but Luma would probably just clank if it got to attack.

 

[S_B]

When you put it like that, you can say that about any character. Any character can jump over a fireball.

Jump over, yes. Land quickly enough to tomahawk Bowser with something, probably not.

Again, I'd LOVE for FB to have less endlag for this and a number of other reasons...

Bowser U-Throw is amazing against Rosa from what I can tell, yes. I believe he's invincible within his shell and the hit scatters away Luma as well. That being said, going in and getting that grab is annoying but at least it's plausibly rewarded. Additionally this can also kill Luma based on positioning I imagine.

It can, but you need to throw Rosa IMMEDIATELY after grabbing her because Luma jumps behind Rosa a moment after she either grabs or gets grabbed (probably because Sakurai didn't want any Ice Climber shenanigans going on...).

You'll probably kill Luma if you do it right by a ledge, but the angle is too steep to kill Luma nearly anywhere else.

 

[bc1910]

Greninja was never top tier. He just destroyed For Glory in the same way as Yoshi and Mac.

He sadly got hit harder, probably because his win rate was even better. Hydro Pump was bonkers but nothing else needed to be touched.

Meh, doesn't matter. In most respects he's actually better off now. He misses Hydro Pump, which was pretty much broken, and an overpowered Usmash, but that's it. He now has better pokes (Ftilt, SOB aerials), stronger smashes and a combo Dthrow. I can't really justify prepatch Hydro Pump's existence so I'm happy with how Greninja turned out, aside from Usmash being slightly overnerfed.

I have a lot of vision for the character. I think he's significantly, and I mean significantly, better than most people think. I'd have dropped him if I didn't believe that, and put all my time into Sheik, but she's still my secondary because I'm constantly finding new ways to push Greninja. MUs that I once thought were near-unwinnable have gotten so much better with a little work.

I would bet money on Greninja, Peach or Pac-Man, maybe all 3, having the same journey as Brawl Olimar.

 

[Y2Kay]

Having a fully charged limit gauge is like having 50 bucks in your pocket.

You just can't wait to spend it, but you're probably better off if you saved it.

yes, I came up with that metaphor myself.........

 

[Browny]

I would bet money on Greninja, Peach or Pac-Man, maybe all 3, having the same journey as Brawl Olimar.

Is that so? I'm a betting man, make an offer on Greninja

I think Pac-man is the only one capable of that. The only thing brawl Olimar did differently over his life was become increasingly more obnoxious and refuse to approach even when losing and people getting better at his recovery. Pac-man can do the same as his recovery is pretty much top tier anyway.

I probably seem like some anti-Greninja hater on this forum but I have nothing against him, I like all the pokemon characters. Greninja though to me just feels like a character that will always require too much effort for not enough reward. There's just nothing Greninja can rely on to clutch out wins or get easy KOs he has to work for everything. Most of the top tiers can end your stock pretty quickly, combo you for free or wall you out with safe attacks. Greninja just seems good at everything but about the only thing he excels at is gimping a handful of characters with Hydro pump.

 

[Y2Kay]

Greninja just seems good at everything but about the only thing he excels at is gimping a handful of characters with Hydro pump.

And racking up 80% off a missed ground tech, but I digress!