Official Character Competitive Impressions - Tourneys, Tiers, Theories, Tactics

[TTTTTsd]

Me: Hey look, there's a 95% alignment between the balance changes and our cumulative recorded high-level tourney results over a year later on the other side of an ocean.

People: WELL WHAT ABOUT THE OTHER 5%?!?


I don't even drink, and some days I worry that going into game development is going to make me an alcoholic.

I think Dedede makes me binge drink when Ithink about it too hard.

That's why I don't

 

[Thinkaman]

Hey guys, you know who is in the top half of cumulative Wii U tourney placements reported to Smashboards?

Even though he got his nerfs before the Wii U version even came out?

Who happens to be the second-highest performing heavyweight, after DK?

Who is known to be considered better in Japan, on wi-fi, and in FFAs?

(Don't look at me, I think this character sucks. But I can't argue with the data.)

 

[Peppermint1201]

So here's some food for thought. FOW, the Ness player, has a pocket Falco, for the Rosalina matchup of all things. After watching some VODs of locals, it's clear his Falco can handle Rosalinas pretty well too. Does Falco win the matchup? What attributes does Falco have that allow him to succeed against Rosa?

 

[Gamegenie222]

Nahhh Falco hates the MU but unlike Fox he has better tools to kill Luma reliably and knock Luma offstage and when Rosie goes offstage Falco can put the hurt on Rosie with well time nairs, fairs, bairs and dair spikes. It's just Luma putting all types of hurt in this MU.

 

[Sonicninja115]

Does Falco's laser and Shine help more in this MU?

 

[Yonder]

got big dodge buffs a few patches ago, and a nair landing lag buff before that. Also jab/f-smash buffs.

has received a steady stream of buffs, particularly to down b.

got some small knockback buffs in the first patch. Later he got his lock removed.

got some very small positive tweaks.

also got buffs here and there.

all got a mix of nerfs and buffs.

also got improvements to blaster, d-throw, and shine, alongside his jab nerf.

got a buff to d-throw, but nerfs to up-b, especially up-b 2.

got a few endlag nerfs in the first patch, but then eventually got a few buffs here and there.

also got a jab fix, even if it pales in comparison to his nerfs. He also got improvements to d-smash and usmash in the tourney mode patch.

also got a Raptor Boost buff.

was also nerfed in the first patch iirc, and then later got nerfs to bair and fair.

got nerfs to weight (!), throws, and smashes.

got nerfs to Smashes and hydrant HP (increased) in the first patch.

got a 0.5% nerf to u-tilt in the first patch. We all laughed because we all knew Mario was bottom 5.

got nerfs to PK Thunder spam and d-throw damage. However, he also got a down-b lag decrease and a dair hitbox size increase.

got nerfs to Paralyzer and Usmash startup, on top of her superior landing lag from air dodge being fixed.

got a throw nerf.

got a few nerfs in the first patch.

got a handful of small nerfs + PP fix. Then he later got buffs to fair, jab, and some specials.

has gotten a handful of very slight changes in both directions.

Final lists:

Buffed: (30)


Mixed: (12)


Nerfed: (10)


Unchanged: (4)


This isn't counting stuff that is obviously just bug fixes, nor global changes, including ramifications of system changes. (Vectoring, shield stun changes)

Now if you really want to have some fun, go check out the Smashboards Rankings based on tourney results. Dedede and PAC-MAN aside (who were only nerfed in the first 3DS patch), there is a very tight correlation, as you'd expect any sane patches to have.

Sonic got a weight adjustment? Now there really is 0 excuse on why Sakurai can't bring M2 to his Melee weight and make him an insta-mid character.

 

[Wintermelon43]

I don't know about you but I don't need a good Jigglypuff again

Yes, but the fact that he and Dedede are the ONLY complety ignored low tiers, with Jigglypuff even being (wrongly) considered bottom tier. That's just messed up!!!

 

[KeithTheGeek]

Hey guys, you know who is in the top half of cumulative Wii U tourney placements reported to Smashboards?

Even though he got his nerfs before the Wii U version even came out?

Who happens to be the second-highest performing heavyweight, after DK?

Who is known to be considered better in Japan, on wi-fi, and in FFAs?

(Don't look at me, I think this character sucks. But I can't argue with the data.)

He might suck, but he's also perfect and the most fun character in the game. The data doesn't lie.




...Though in all seriousness, even a year later I'm scratching my head over the Dedede nerfs. I don't think he's quite bottom 5 but it's pretty clear the character is undertuned for tourney play. Some frame data buffs to Gordo would be god-like, we could actually make use of some of its better characteristics then.

 

[BSP]

Hey guys, you know who is in the top half of cumulative Wii U tourney placements reported to Smashboards?

Even though he got his nerfs before the Wii U version even came out?

Who happens to be the second-highest performing heavyweight, after DK?

Who is known to be considered better in Japan, on wi-fi, and in FFAs?

(Don't look at me, I think this character sucks. But I can't argue with the data.)

Got an explanation for ? It's sad to see him in the nerfed group along with characters that actually win majors.

He got a Galaxian and trampoline nerf too btw.

 

[PGH_Chrispy]

Got an explanation for ? It's sad to see him in the nerfed group along with characters that actually win majors.

He got a Galaxian and trampoline nerf too btw.

Note that most of these came in the first patch. Imagine how crazy Pac would be if his hydrant broke even earlier than it does now

 

[ParanoidDrone]

Does Falco's laser and Shine help more in this MU?

Falco's Reflector does a good job of disrupting Luma, I think. It has better range than anything Rosalina can throw out and I'm not sure what she can really do about it.

Lasers are pointless at range because of GP but their hitstun makes it more annoying when they hit. Psychological warfare?

 

[S_B]

I don't even drink, and some days I worry that going into game development is going to make me an alcoholic.

Sniffing glue is cheaper.

And the D3 nerfs never made sense to me. Every other HW (except Gdorf) has either a combo-kill throw or a kill throw outright.

Just give D3 back Dthrow > Bair and be done with it, I'd say (and give Gdorf a throw followup already).

 

[ILOVESMASH]

So here's some food for thought. FOW, the Ness player, has a pocket Falco, for the Rosalina matchup of all things. After watching some VODs of locals, it's clear his Falco can handle Rosalinas pretty well too. Does Falco win the matchup? What attributes does Falco have that allow him to succeed against Rosa?

A lot of Falco players believe rosalina to be his worst or second worst MU, so its pretty clear the matchup is not in his favor. That being said, he does has some nice tools in the MU. His Fair in particular is absolutely amazing against her since it can knock Luma away and intercept Rosalina while she is recovering. Other moves like Dash Attack are also really good against rosalina since they can knock away luma.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

Sniffing glue is cheaper.

And the D3 nerfs never made sense to me. Every other HW (except Gdorf) has either a combo-kill throw or a kill throw outright.

Just give D3 back Dthrow > Bair and be done with it, I'd say (and give Gdorf a throw followup already).

I have a weak suspicion that Gordos were nerfed because online latency (read: For Glory) made it tricky to hit them back even when you knew what to do. Perhaps they figured lowering the threshold to 2% would let players use stuff like the late hit of sex kicks or maybe a multihit move to do the job.

EDIT: Alternative theory: They had specific moves in mind that characters could reflect Gordos with but forgot to take stale moves into account and the moves only worked when fresh.

 

[BSP]

Note that most of these came in the first patch. Imagine how crazy Pac would be if his hydrant broke even earlier than it does now

He'd be ok? Most people see him as a gimmick character atm.

12 HP hydrant only instant broke with a completely fresh bair and melon. Not really crazy at all.

Edit: and if Pac-Man chose to use the melon to instant launch, he locked himself into it. He can't use any other fruit until he relinquishes the melon, and the hydrant launch angle for melon is fixed. Once you learn the MU, it's really not that scary.

 

[Nu~]

Got an explanation for ? It's sad to see him in the nerfed group along with characters that actually win majors.

He got a Galaxian and trampoline nerf too btw.

It's also quite sad how we still have Pac-Man mains that complain about the day 1 nerfs of a current high tier character.

Galaxian was nerfed because an 11% projectile that sets up combos that well would be incredibly stupid. We already get an average of 30% from each galaxian hit confirm.
What do you think would happen if we kept the 11% version? You like to say that "galaxian has such low priority after the nerf" but what would a 2% increase do? It would still be beat out by weak attacks. It wasn't meant to bowl through attacks. The reason it has such low priority is because of how dangerous a single hit confirm from it is.
Even then, when you can find opponents that can consistently throw out an attack to beat galaxian in mid range on reaction, call me.

As for the smash attack nerf, I don't think I need to explain how stupid it is for a 17% dealing, disjointed smash attack to have no end lag.
A 12% hydrant was stupid easy to launch because of the existence of the melon.
I'm not sure if the HP increase was a complete nerf. We gained a sturdier hydrant to tank opponent attacks, and more ways to launch it (Bair -> jab is much easier).

The trampoline nerf is the only one I'll give you. Being punished on hit (although it only happens at incredibly low %s) is never fun.


Pre patch pacman would have become quite oppressive. Rapid fire hydrant launches, even higher average damage galaxian combos, and free usmashes to just throw out like Mario's...

Is not balanced.

He'd be ok? Most people see him as a gimmick character atm.

12 HP hydrant only instant broke with a completely fresh bair and melon. Not really crazy at all.

Why should we care what most people see him as?
These are the same people who scratch their heads and say "A pacman in top 8?" every major that abadango attended with pacman as his main.
Clearly, they haven't heard the wake up call.

And remember that the melon could be caught far easier than keys. We could bounce it off of shields, walls, and hydrants.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

He'd be ok? Most people see him as a gimmick character atm.

12 HP hydrant only instant broke with a completely fresh bair and melon. Not really crazy at all.

And just the other day we saw hydrants dropped onto keys for instant launches. The main point I'm taking away with this is that Pac-Man simply has too many tools at his disposal to be outright bad unless Sakurai goes off the deep end and makes everything do like 1%. Something will combine in some fashion to produce insanity.

 

[Lavani]

So here's some food for thought. FOW, the Ness player, has a pocket Falco, for the Rosalina matchup of all things. After watching some VODs of locals, it's clear his Falco can handle Rosalinas pretty well too. Does Falco win the matchup? What attributes does Falco have that allow him to succeed against Rosa?

Falco has all the problems Fox has in the matchup (combo physics, abusable recovery, poor range/disjoint) without the mobility that lets Fox get in Rosa's face. As already stated he has decent Luma removal tools, but I really don't know what he does against a Rosa that's willing to wait and wall him out - the few matches I've seen of his local Rosa involved questionable decisions like rolling toward him constantly and approaching with jumps (???), so I don't think anything can really be pulled from those sets beyond "he doesn't want to play Ness against Rosalina".

tbh I think Ness probably does better in the MU, but last time I watched a Vegas local he went Falco the entire tournament so I don't think he takes them all that seriously.

Does Falco's laser and Shine help more in this MU?

Luma tanks the lasers for Rosa anyway. Shine can get past Luma but it's a lot of risk for a measly 5%, but is a tool worth noting.

I have a weak suspicion that Gordos were nerfed because online latency (read: For Glory) made it tricky to hit them back even when you knew what to do. Perhaps they figured lowering the threshold to 2% would let players use stuff like the late hit of sex kicks or maybe a multihit move to do the job.

Late hits would've reflected with the 3% threshold as well anyway unless they were absurdly stale.

But, lesser-known is that Gordo's hitboxes were nerfed as well in that patch. In 1.0.0 you either needed to wait before hitting them (the hitbox shrinks every half second) or use a disjoint to do it, otherwise you'd trade with or lose to the Gordo. From 1.0.4 onward, the starting hitbox is the same size as the previous second-smallest hitbox.

The 3%>2% threshold nerf mattered most in the Bowser, Charizard (Fire Breath/Flamethrower) and Mega Man (lemons) matchups, in my experience.

 

[Game7a1]

Yes, but the fact that he and Dedede are the ONLY complety ignored low tiers, with Jigglypuff even being (wrongly) considered bottom tier. That's just messed up!!!

Well, according to Thinkaman and the patches, Dedede has been nerfed, so he's not ignored. And, aside from Puff, the only characters that haven't been changed are 3/5 of the DLC cast (Cloud's new, Ryu I think would be more difficult to balance properly if he isn't already, and I got nothing for Roy, so he's probably balanced in the eyes of the developers); this is more of a fun fact than anything.
As a Jigglypuff main, let's quit complaining about being largely ignored in patches and use what Puff we have. If she gets some buffs, great. If ignored again, then let's keep on improving our skills.

 

[Kresent]

has received a steady stream of buffs, particularly to down b

Gotta say I disagree with this. Excluding the buffs to Hyper Bomb and Ice Slasher (custom moves), Megaman has been mostly nerfed. Leaf Shield has gotten end lag reductions, but Rush Cancelling was removed in the first patch (It was kind of broken, but Greninja can still cancel hitstun with Shadow Sneak and Megaman needed something to help him escape juggles). Along with that, Megaman's Rush Coil has a bad RCO problem (even though you can act, you're FORCED to commit to something on landing or you get RCO lag. For example, if you try to up-b into leaf shield and get hit, you're gonna land with lag.) and is completely overshadowed by how much better Sonic's Up-B is.

Also the increased shield stun indirectly nerfed Megaman, making a lot of his moves less safe on block.


It's pretty annoying how 3 out of 4 of Megaman's specials can be used against him.

 

[NachoOfCheese]

It's pretty annoying how 3 out of 4 of Megaman's specials can be used against him.

Diddy's banana can be used against him but it's still one of the best projectiles in the game. It doesn't matter too much.

 

[KeithTheGeek]

Dropping the Gordos from 3 to 2 % made them more consistent in their interactions with jabs. Before, certain jabs wouldn't deflect them. But now every jab can, iirc. It has the unfortunate side effect of making them easily dispatched by all sorts of odd attacks.

By the way, I don't think Bowser's fire breath can deflect them. Charizard's does, but Bowser's does less damage per hit.

On Ganondorf, does he really need a kill confirm from grab? He already has two command grabs, one of which was recently buffed in power and the other a strong tool for setting up tech chases. Mobility buffs would be a more significant change that would open up more options for Ganondorf.

 

[Mazdamaxsti]

Actually, Puff got a 1% increase on flower damage after rest. Pretty much a **** you to puff mains, but it happened.

 

[Kresent]

Diddy's banana can be used against him but it's still one of the best projectiles in the game. It doesn't matter too much.

Maybe, but Diddy has the mobility to make up for it. He also has good tilts and smashes whereas Megaman's tilts and smashes (bar pellets) are all situational or have significant recovery. Megaman relies on his specials for his neutral game, but Diddy can just switch to a more aggro strategy when the opponent has a banana in hand.


I don't see how you can make the comparison.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

12 HP hydrant only instant broke with a completely fresh bair and melon. Not really crazy at all.

Dude, throwing a hydrant downwards into a z-dropped Melon and watch that thing go nuts was the hypest **** ever.

 

[C0rvus]

Complexity can be borne of a variety of different sources.

There's no reason heavy characters cannot have complexities as well, and for SSB, Bowser and DK's current throw followups are much more "complex" than who the game was really designed for. Heavies can have traps, attacks that follow up into other moves, etc. but I suspect that we won't see truly complex heavies until SSB5, since most of the competitive designing of SSB4 seems to have happened after the fact through patches.

I guess my post was in response to two others and they bled into each other. Whoops. It was late lol
Anyway, I didn't mean to say that heavies can't be complex. They certainly can. I think good complexity is a fluid gameplan or varied tools that players can apply in different ways to suit their own way of playing. It's very hard to nail that, though so the best I can hope for is for non-linear characters.

Also, Bowser is not complex at all. This buff was huge for him in terms of viability, but as a result he is one of the most linear characters in the game. He reminds me of pre-nerf Luigi, albeit without a silly projectile. It's kind of a shame really. I'm glad for Bowser players who can really make their mark now, but I wish it had been in a more interesting manner that Bowser became better. But I digress.

If Dedede were stronger I would vouch for him being the most complex heavy. Gordos have cool properties and he can really trap and corner people at the ledge with a plethora of coverage options. He also lacks the kill setups that his buddies all got. I'm seriously praying that Dedede gets similar treatment. I find him much more fun than DK and Bowser.

 

[Game7a1]

Actually, Puff got a 1% increase on flower damage after rest. Pretty much a **** you to puff mains, but it happened.

Actually, this is false, and I confirmed it (it's in more detail in the patch notes discussion). Ever since launch, Rest's Flower always did 39%. The only reason people noted a "change" is because when one uses Rest on a STOP CPU in training mode, it did 36% to 37% as opposed to the original 35%. I'm trying to figure out why it did that, but if you set the training CPU to STOP or (and thanks to Lavani for telling me this) press start to pause training mode (since nothing will be moving but damage from the flower will still continue, if that makes sense), the flower damage extends to 39%, the maximum value. It did this in the original version on the 3DS and in the latest patch.
If anything changed to the flower damage, it wasn't the maximum value. So no "confirmed" buffs to Puff.

 

[Thinkaman]

Actually, Puff got a 1% increase on flower damage after rest. Pretty much a **** you to puff mains, but it happened.

I've always been skeptical about this. Flower duration is dependent on inputs, which vary on the victim in training mode.

Even if the flower WAS changed, it could only be a global change to the flower elemental state.

The Jigglypuff Rest hitbox itself was entirely unchanged.


People really get their knickers in a knot over Jigglypuff not getting buffs, when Zelda is still clearly worse in spite of the buffs she has (thankfully) gotten. </opinion>

 

[Jehtt]

Also the increased shield stun indirectly nerfed Megaman, making a lot of his moves less safe on block.

The change with shield stun overlapping with shield lock made his projectiles 1-2 frames less safe. It may be technically be a nerf but it hardly matters in practice. Mega Man's gameplan doesn't generally involve getting into a range where OOS options are potent.

Megaman relies on his specials for his neutral game, but Diddy can just switch to a more aggro strategy when the opponent has a banana in hand.

If the opponent has your Metal Blade, you are in a better spot than they are. Your opponent's only options are to shield, jump, use specials, or throw the MB. Throwing the MB is not threatening because lemons clank with it. You can simply pressure them with lemons until they throw it, and you will not get hit because it will hit a lemon instead.
Also, you should not be relying on specials for your neutral game. They are too laggy to be used at a grounded, mid-range opponent. That is what lemons and aerials are for.

 

[Radical Larry]

(and give Gdorf a throw followup already).

It's not like his D-Throw can followed up by either N-Air, U-Air, WizKick or Dash Attack. Heck, it's not like it can be followed up by Wizard's Dropkick at high damages.
That'd be stupid.
On second thought, the fact that you ASKED for Ganon to have a throw follow up even though he already has it is very...uninformed.

 

[Peppermint1201]

EDIT: ignore this post, i was beaten to the punch on the information i was giving and besides does pac-man's bair even have a sweetspot?

 

[BSP]

It's also quite sad how we still have Pac-Man mains that complain about the day 1 nerfs of a current high tier character.

Galaxian was nerfed because an 11% projectile that sets up combos that well would be incredibly stupid. We already get an average of 30% from each galaxian hit confirm.

Would it, though? Tack on an extra 4% onto combos that involve a projectile that takes almost 2 seconds to charge to, is telegraphed, is clanked out by nearly any hitbox in the game, and easily stolen? Then it's on a character that doesn't have the best direct answers to you shielding? Not sure it'd be stupid. Was it stupid pre patch? Pac-Man wasn't dominating anything.

What do you think would happen if we kept the 11% version? You like to say that "galaxian has such low priority after the nerf" but what would a 2% increase do? It would still be beat out by weak attacks. It wasn't meant to bowl through attacks. The reason it has such low priority is because of how dangerous a single hit confirm from it is.
Even then, when you can find opponents that can consistently throw out an attack to beat galaxian in mid range on reaction, call me.

Exactly what happens right now, except tack on an extra 4%. A 2% increase would let it not get clanked out by moves that do 2%, like a lot of jabs. From a quick skim, Mario's, Kirby's Fox's, Peach's, Sheik's, you get the idea.

I agree that it's dangerous once it hits, but you have to hit with it first. Most jabs in the game beat it and are near zero commitment. If most jabs will beat it, so will most aerials. And shield. And whatever. Attacking Pac-Man's fruit isn't hard. F12 startup not counting travel time, not hard to react to. You need to catch a hard commitment or mistake to hit with the thing. If it's already so hard to hit with, why lower the reward + make it easier to beat before it presents itself as a problem?

As for the smash attack nerf, I don't think I need to explain how stupid it is for a 17% dealing, disjointed smash attack to have no end lag.

He deserved that one, no argument here.

A 12% hydrant was stupid easy to launch because of the existence of the melon.

Where exactly is the problem with this? If you want to instant launch the hydrant with melon, you need to hold on to the melon, which means you're not using any of the other fruits. Yes, it's much easier to catch than Key, but unlike abusing the key to instant launch, the opponent doesn't need to be afraid of Pac-Man suddenly switching gears and chucking the melon at them since it's so slow. Hydrant launches are still not understood well by the general populace. The launch angle is fixed when you use a fruit to launch it, so you should know exactly how it's going to bounce if Pac-Man goes for the launch. Furthermore, it's still easy to cancel out.

'm not sure if the HP increase was a complete nerf. We gained a sturdier hydrant to tank opponent attacks, and more ways to launch it (Bair -> jab is much easier).

It's arguable. We gained an extra 1% of tanking, we lost all instant launch capability without having a fruit already out. Plus with the 12 HP, all you had to do was hit with Bair once to have all the setup potential we have now. Nvm, you couldn't set it up on command, my bad. Still, Nair worked. It edges out as a nerf to me.

Pre patch pacman would have become quite oppressive. Rapid fire hydrant launches, even higher average damage galaxian combos, and free usmashes to just throw out like Mario's...

Is not balanced.

Again, I agree with the Usmash nerf. I'm not exactly terrified of the other versions of his specials since I actually understand how they work, unlike most people who fight Pac-Man. Let's also keep in mind that everything we're mentioning with fruit and hydrant goes both ways. Opponents can nail us just as easily, and they can galaxian combo into meteors lol.

Dude, throwing a hydrant downwards into a z-dropped Melon and watch that thing go nuts was the hypest **** ever.

IKR? It was great watching Abadango and.......uh.......Abadango take touranments by storm with his melon launched hydrants, except even then I don't think he won anything.

And just the other day we saw hydrants dropped onto keys for instant launches. The main point I'm taking away with this is that Pac-Man simply has too many tools at his disposal to be outright bad unless Sakurai goes off the deep end and makes everything do like 1%. Something will combine in some fashion to produce insanity.

The real dangerous part about key instant launches is Pac-Man deciding to throw the Key at you. That thing is pretty crazy in hand in general. Melon not so much.

 

[|RK|]

I've always been skeptical about this. Flower duration is dependent on inputs, which vary on the victim in training mode.

Even if the flower WAS changed, it could only be a global change to the flower elemental state.

The Jigglypuff Rest hitbox itself was entirely unchanged.


People really get their knickers in a knot over Jigglypuff not getting buffs, when Zelda is still clearly worse in spite of the buffs she has (thankfully) gotten. </opinion>

Could you elaborate? I hear some Zelda mains say she's not nearly as bad as people think, and a few QoL changes would put her in a good place.

On the other hand, I've never heard one good thing about Jigglypuff. Well, except edgeguarding, I guess.

 

[C0rvus]

Sonic got a weight adjustment? Now there really is 0 excuse on why Sakurai can't bring M2 to his Melee weight and make him an insta-mid character.

But... What if I told you that he is already a mid tier character?
~~
It's more likely than you think.

 

[Nu~]

Would it, though? Tack on an extra 4% onto combos that involve a projectile that takes almost 2 seconds to charge to, is telegraphed, is clanked out by nearly any hitbox in the game, and easily stolen? Then it's on a character that doesn't have the best direct answers to you shielding? Not sure it'd be stupid. Was it stupid pre patch? Pac-Man wasn't dominating anything.



Exactly what happens right now, except tack on an extra 4%. A 2% increase would let it not get clanked out by moves that do 2%, like a lot of jabs. From a quick skim, Mario's, Kirby's Fox's, Peach's, Sheik's, you get the idea.

I agree that it's dangerous once it hits, but you have to hit with it first. Most jabs in the game beat it and are near zero commitment. If most jabs will beat it, so will most aerials. And shield. And whatever. Attacking Pac-Man's fruit isn't hard. F12 startup not counting travel time, not hard to react to. You need to catch a hard commitment or mistake to hit with the thing. If it's already so hard to hit with, why lower the reward + make it easier to beat before it presents itself as a problem?



He deserved that one, no argument here.



Where exactly is the problem with this? If you want to instant launch the hydrant with melon, you need to hold on to the melon, which means you're not using any of the other fruits. Yes, it's much easier to catch than Key, but unlike abusing the key to instant launch, the opponent doesn't need to be afraid of Pac-Man suddenly switching gears and chucking the melon at them since it's so slow. Hydrant launches are still not understood well by the general populace. The launch angle is fixed when you use a fruit to launch it, so you should know exactly how it's going to bounce if Pac-Man goes for the launch. Furthermore, it's still easy to cancel out.



It's arguable. We gained an extra 1% of tanking, we lost all instant launch capability without having a fruit already out. Plus with the 12 HP, all you had to do was hit with Bair once to have all the setup potential we have now. Since hitting fruits stales your moves, you could set this up yourself if you so desired. It edges out as a nerf to me.



Again, I agree with the Usmash nerf. I'm not exactly terrified of the other versions of his specials since I actually understand how they work, unlike most people who fight Pac-Man. Let's also keep in mind that everything we're mentioning with fruit and hydrant goes both ways. Opponents can nail us just as easily, and they can galaxian combo into meteors lol.



IKR? It was great watching Abadango and.......uh.......Abadango take touranments by storm with his melon launched hydrants, except even then I don't think he won anything.

I agree that an extra 4% may not seem impressive, but you also have to add in the extended galaxian combos that begin with z drops. I still think that you are overrating an opponent's ability to jab on reaction.

Reacting to 12 frames in the heat of battle is not easy at all. Look at ZSS's grab.

Yes there is counterplay to instant hydrant launches, but it's still a powerful option that keeps opponents at bay. Clanking with the hydrant is only "easy" if you have a long lasting hitbox or disjoint.

 

[Y2Kay]

Just thought I'd share some numbers on Electroshock Arm now that I've gotten them on three major positions without DI. All on Mario, max freshness, best and worst positions have Mario a roll away from the ledge with the middle being dead center. Rounded a bit (3% max) to keep things simple. Former number is rage, later is Mario's damage.

Best

0% 80%
50-70% 75%
90% 70%
110% 65%
130% 55%
150% 45%

Middle

0% 110%
50% 105%
70% 100%
90% 90%
110% 85%
130% 80%
150% 75%

Worst

0% 145%
50% 135%
70% 125%
90% 120%
110% 115%
130% 105%
150% 95%

So basically, it's not super positional like you'd think it would be. Even if forced to launch somebody across the stage it'll still kill at reasonable percents factoring rage, and for the most part it does kill sooner then Pit's Upperdash, which kills somewhere around 140%. Dark Pit can cheese a kill with it from a 25% deficit in the middle, which is nothing to scoff at. And it's not like he's easy to just close in on either, since he has a decent projectile, great grounded mobility, and multiple cross-up options.

Yeah... Feel sorry for the poor souls who struggled to kill a Dark Pit and ended up going from winning by 50% to losing the match.

Do you know how many poor souls I've killed at 50 with rage electroshock? It's hilarious quite honestly. I've found myself using Dark pit more and more now, where before I only used pit.

 

[Big-Cat]

Also, Bowser is not complex at all. This buff was huge for him in terms of viability, but as a result he is one of the most linear characters in the game. He reminds me of pre-nerf Luigi, albeit without a silly projectile. It's kind of a shame really. I'm glad for Bowser players who can really make their mark now, but I wish it had been in a more interesting manner that Bowser became better. But I digress.

No no, do go on. Because just constantly going for UThrow is a stupid mistake.

 

[Nobie]

Something to think about when it comes to seemingly small buffs/nerfs.

Let's say a move does 10% damage and gets increased to 12%. "Who cares," right?

Let's say you land that move 10 times during a stock. whereas before you did 100% damage (ignoring staleness for the sake of convenience), now you've done 120%. Or to put it differently, now you only have to land the attack 8-9 times instead of 10 to achieve the same damage.

What difference can one attack make? Well, think about the idea of "last stock, last hit." Situations that wouldn't have been last stock, last hit now are. One less attack required can be the difference between victory and defeat.

When you see small buffs like that, on Shulk or Zelda or whoever, they're not meant to turn tier lists upside down or dramatically transform losing matchups into winning ones. They're meant to take edge cases and push them ever so slightly further into common ones, and uncommon scenarios into edge cases. This is because attacks can add up.

 

[meleebrawler]

Sniffing glue is cheaper.

And the D3 nerfs never made sense to me. Every other HW (except Gdorf) has either a combo-kill throw or a kill throw outright.

Just give D3 back Dthrow > Bair and be done with it, I'd say (and give Gdorf a throw followup already).

Getting a grab with Dedede simply doesn't happen as much as with the other heavies. You're too busy trying to keep the opponent out with your giant swings. He only really uses it to punish or in the rare occasion he gets his gordo in just the right spot.

Be thankful he still has real followups at low percents from it. Most hugely disjointed characters aren't so lucky.

 

[Ffamran]

Sonic got a weight adjustment? Now there really is 0 excuse on why Sakurai can't bring M2 to his Melee weight and make him an insta-mid character.

Wait... Sonic's weight was changed? When did this happen? Thinkaman ! Where is thy evidence?