Official Character Competitive Impressions - Tourneys, Tiers, Theories, Tactics

[Apeirohaon]

I find it kind of odd he hasn't received buffs. Only explanation would be early 3ds impressions of the character.

there are 2 other much more plausible explanations:

1 - He has a great FG winrate.
2 - The Japanese regard him more highly than we do

the first is very likely true, and the second is pretty much a fact. They are both things that have been shown to have a large effect on balancing

 

[PGH_Chrispy]

The hilarity of it all is that Zelda's Fair and Bair could do 6% more, from 20% to 26%, and it might not make a major difference for her. Sure, it would let her kill like maybe at like 60% on Bowser and Triple D, but the problem is landing them - the reliability of her moves. She would need something like instant shield breaks with sweet-spotted Fair and Bair to have a major effect on her game plan. Speaking of which... why not just give her something like +10% extra shield damage for Fair and Bair? The "ripping" nature of her Ftilt kind of makes me wish it did extra shield damage. It would scare the hell out of people compared to now where perfect shield or not, Zelda's not scary.

Zelda main incoming

So, as it stands right now, Zelda's Fair (when used with a fastfall) is -10 on shield which, when properly spaced, doesn't leave her entirely helpless. In fact, against slippy characters like Luigi, it's completely safe - though characters like Falcon can easily get in with a grab, and most sword users have enough range and speed to hit back. 26% fair/bair is an incredible concept to me - the added shieldstun just from damage would be enough to make a lightning kick positive on shield, and possibly even make ff fair to sh bair impossible to break out of. As of now, it takes 3 lightning kicks to break a shield - I can't say if a 10% increase would lower that number to 2, but it'd be nasty either way.

Ftilt sucks - it's only redeeming factors are slightly longer range than jab/fsmash and a really good launch angle. Having it do comparable shield damage to a lightning kick would give the move a bit more use than getting extra spacing.

If anyone has anything else to get off their chest relating to Zelda, feel free to ask about it. I've played her loyally since launch, and while I won't profess to be even one of the best at her, I know her tools inside and out.

 

[TurboLink]

How much better would Ryu's neutral be if he had Marth's walk speed? If better at all, that is.

 

[Rizen]

Adding to the 1%=earlier launches conversation, Link benefited significantly from the last patch, especially his Fair.

 

[wedl!!]

Ryu would be the best character without question if he had way faster walk speed.

 

[Dre89]

Yeah, both DK and Bowser are very linear in comparison to D3 right now.

What I wish they had done for Bowser was give him some kind of shieldbreak trap, something that isn't as straightforward as bombing onto someone's shield (which will never work on a good opponent anyway), but allows a smart Bowser player using good positioning to trap someone in FB or something and force a shield break.

Ultimately, you're still going to need to use all of Bowser's other tools to successfully get kills against good opponents, but the real point is that the fear of being grabbed can make opponents put themselves in more compromising positions that will allow Bowser to better use the remainder of his toolkit.

I've already seen LeTroof get some Dtilt kills on the ledge because people are scared to come up for fear of getting grabbed.



I'm perfectly aware that both D3 and Gdorf have throw followups...at low percentages.

When I say "Throw follow up", I mean something that can take stocks.

I guess I should clarify that, though MOST of the cast has a throw follow up of some kind but relatively few have one that can actually kill like Ding-dong/Shell shock...

D3 actually HAD a kill followup early in the game but they nerfed it for some reason. :\



/facepalm

I pointed out that no smart opponent is going to land NEXT to Bowser, instead they're going to land on the other side of the stage, where Bowser would need to RUN to intercept them...which won't work because dash grabbing after running that distance is horribly telegraphed.



First of all, no, I never said that. Stop strawmanning, please.

Second, LeTroof gets plenty of pivot grabs by dashing toward, then away from an opponent, tricking them into trying to aerial him.



And as I said, no smart opponent is going to be landing close enough to Bowser that he can do this (unless they're Sheik or ZSS and their low-lag Nairs will beat everything Bowser can throw out).

But yes, if you powershield an aerial, a dashgrab is pretty much going to be the only way to really punish it.



On which attacks? And are you sure you're not just getting the dashgrab right after the hitbox ends?

Beyond that, if certain attacks like some jabs and whatnot don't outrange Bowser's dashgrab, it's the job of the opponent to know which attacks will stop it and which ones won't.

Every character forum spends time on each individual matchup, and I know they spend copious amounts of time on high tiers and how to beat them. It shouldn't be too much to ask for these matchup threads to spend some time figuring out which attacks from that character are going to stuff Bowser's dashgrab.

I've spent a lot of time figuring out exactly when any given attack's hitbox ends so I know when to dashgrab or counterattack. When you do it right, it usually looks like you're running through part of the attack because the hitbox usually ends before the animation does.

Also, I still want to see some videos of this tournament you mentioned...

Dashing is different to running. Dashing is a perfectly viable way to land grabs because you're not telegraphing as much.

And it's not after the hitbox finishes because I'm grabbing them out of their animations. His dashgrab range doesn't seem that much shorter than his pivot grab range. Just try spacing it as if it had his pivot grab range. If you're in range of the hitbox you'll get hit out but the point is the range is so long that you you don't need to be in range to grab them out of it.

I don't have any vids of the tournament. Tbh I mentioned it more because I just found it funny.

 

[Sonicninja115]

@Yonder abadango almost took out SH at niconico, he SD'd at 20%too, if he had won that match, he probably would have won the set. Now, that is great and all, but we are forgetting the fact that Fox vs. Mewtwo is considered a 70/30 MU...

Also, @TheReflexWonder is picking up Mewtwo, and it is looking pretty good.

@MewSquared consistently does well at Shockwave in Texas, which isn't really free.

RayNoire is PR'ed, or was, in his state.

Mewtwo doesn't have too many mains, but the problem is that nobody at Xanadu mains him.

Note, there are many more. I read through the PR list earlier and there was a surprising amount of Mewtwo rep.

 

[Boozer]

Also, I still want to see some videos of this tournament you mentioned...

there aren't any vids of it cos it was an irrelevant 20 something man local that i won ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

i mean i did beat our 3rd pr player twice but i've beaten him pre 1.1.3 so w/e l0l

 

[ILOVESMASH]

@Yonder abadango almost took out SH at niconico, he SD'd at 20%too, if he had won that match, he probably would have won the set. Now, that is great and all, but we are forgetting the fact that Fox vs. Mewtwo is considered a 70/30 MU...

Also, @TheReflexWonder is picking up Mewtwo, and it is looking pretty good.

@MewSquared consistently does well at Shockwave in Texas, which isn't really free.

RayNoire is PR'ed, or was, in his state.

Mewtwo doesn't have too many mains, but the problem is that nobody at Xanadu mains him.

Note, there are many more. I read through the PR list earlier and there was a surprising amount of Mewtwo rep.

Doesn't mew^2 occasionally participate at Xanadu?

 

[Kofu]

Nah, he's about right. Duck hunt is bar none the worst character in the game at killing by a fair margin, and with the goal of the game being to kill your opponent... That puts him pretty far down overall. He has some quirks, but nothing that comes even close to matching that weakness.

I take issue with your statement about Duck Hunt being the worst at killing by a fair margin when Game & Watch exists. Now, my skill with Duck Hunt is pretty low. And he does seem to have significant problems killing. I won't directly refute your claim and say Game & Watch is the worst at killing because I feel that's a hard assessment to accurately make. But I'd like to bring some points up for discussion.

Game & Watch has one of the slowest starting sets of smash attacks in the game. Duck Hunt's smashes are unreliable at connecting (which is a DEFINITE hindrance) but their startup is respectable at 12, 7, and 7 for side, up, and down respectably. Game & Watch is working with frame 17, 24, and 15 smashes. FSmash and DSmash have good reach but can be tricky to sweetspot, and USmash is notable for being the third slowest move of its kind after Lucas and Ike and lacks their range and power. In fact, its hitbox size is positively tiny and doesn't even reach behind his head. The move has some nifty invincibility frames to help compensate, though, so I can't complain too much (I actually think the move is pretty well designed aside from its two-sizes-too-small hitbox). Just pointing out that you definitely have speed on your side here.

Neither character's aerials are particularly powerful for KOing aside from UAir. Game & Watch has a slight power advantage here but the attack is extremely finicky and hard to link both hits at kill percents (instead of the autolink angle the first hit has knockback growth). Duck Hunt's is superior in this regard. DThrow to UAir can be a kill combo but its effective percents are limited and the combo can be DIed making followup nearly impossible.

Both character's projectiles can set up for a kill but this is usually unreliable. At least Trick Shot has outright KOing ability.

Duck Hunt has a definite weight advantage. I despise dying at 60% when my opponent is at 150% and I can't properly land a move that will kill (rage is infuriating). But Game & Watch's recovery is 100% superior to Duck Hunt's making gimps a far less likely possibility.

Game & Watch does have one last-ditch kill move that is decent: DTilt. It does a measly 6% but hits on frame 6 and has significant knockback growth (pretty much the only meaningful buff he's received). It'll kill around 120% at the ledge. Not sure if Duck Hunt has anything like that.

Duck Hunt gains exponentially more from customs than Game & Watch and far superior traps. As far as securing kills go, both Fire customs represent a notable power increase. The first guts his recovery noticeably, though, and the second lacks a hitbox during the ascent (though the initial launcher hitbox when sweetspotted kills around 120%). Haven't played enough with the moves to see how useful they'd be; the default is amazingly versatile but if kills can be secured more readily it may be worth forgoing.

Game & Watch's kill potential feels frustratingly balanced around Oil Panic and Judge, which are both OHKOs or close to it. It's far easier (and safer!) to fill the bucket in FFAs and random Judge pulls fit better in that circumstance too.

IIRC you play with Tweek so you probably know better than me but Bowser Jr.'s killing ability also feels very substandard to me.

 

[TTTTTsd]

I take issue with your statement about Duck Hunt being the worst at killing by a fair margin when Game & Watch exists. Now, my skill with Duck Hunt is pretty low. And he does seem to have significant problems killing. I won't directly refute your claim and say Game & Watch is the worst at killing because I feel that's a hard assessment to accurately make. But I'd like to bring some points up for discussion.

Game & Watch has one of the slowest starting sets of smash attacks in the game. Duck Hunt's smashes are unreliable at connecting (which is a DEFINITE hindrance) but their startup is respectable at 12, 7, and 7 for side, up, and down respectably. Game & Watch is working with frame 17, 24, and 15 smashes. FSmash and DSmash have good reach but can be tricky to sweetspot, and USmash is notable for being the third slowest move of its kind after Lucas and Ike and lacks their range and power. In fact, its hitbox size is positively tiny and doesn't even reach behind his head. The move has some nifty invincibility frames to help compensate, though, so I can't complain too much (I actually think the move is pretty well designed aside from its two-sizes-too-small hitbox). Just pointing out that you definitely have speed on your side here.

Neither character's aerials are particularly powerful for KOing aside from UAir. Game & Watch has a slight power advantage here but the attack is extremely finicky and hard to link both hits at kill percents (instead of the autolink angle the first hit has knockback growth). Duck Hunt's is superior in this regard. DThrow to UAir can be a kill combo but its effective percents are limited and the combo can be DIed making followup nearly impossible.

Both character's projectiles can set up for a kill but this is usually unreliable. At least Trick Shot has outright KOing ability.

Duck Hunt has a definite weight advantage. I despise dying at 60% when my opponent is at 150% and I can't properly land a move that will kill (rage is infuriating). But Game & Watch's recovery is 100% superior to Duck Hunt's making gimps a far less likely possibility.

Game & Watch does have one last-ditch kill move that is decent: DTilt. It does a measly 6% but hits on frame 6 and has significant knockback growth (pretty much the only meaningful buff he's received). It'll kill around 120% at the ledge. Not sure if Duck Hunt has anything like that.

Duck Hunt gains exponentially more from customs than Game & Watch and far superior traps. As far as securing kills go, both Fire customs represent a notable power increase. The first guts his recovery noticeably, though, and the second lacks a hitbox during the ascent (though the initial launcher hitbox when sweetspotted kills around 120%). Haven't played enough with the moves to see how useful they'd be; the default is amazingly versatile but if kills can be secured more readily it may be worth forgoing.

Game & Watch's kill potential feels frustratingly balanced around Oil Panic and Judge, which are both OHKOs or close to it. It's far easier (and safer!) to fill the bucket in FFAs and random Judge pulls fit better in that circumstance too.

IIRC you play with Tweek so you probably know better than me but Bowser Jr.'s killing ability also feels very substandard to me.

Game and Watch's Smashes connect properly and his USmash is good. Like, the big thing about Duck Hunt is that his Smashes aren't slow they just don't CONNECT properly. I can't think of a character worse at killing who is so gimped by their own attack gimmick/design. G&W isn't amazing at it either but his aerials can kill via edgeguarding too and he has much more options for it than Duck Hunt does. Poor, poor Duck Hunt.

Duck Hunt is better at killing with Customs but nobody plays those anymore.

 

[Kofu]

Game and Watch's Smashes connect properly and his USmash is good. Like, the big thing about Duck Hunt is that his Smashes aren't slow they just don't CONNECT properly. I can't think of a character worse at killing who is so gimped by their own attack gimmick/design. G&W isn't amazing at it either but his aerials can kill via edgeguarding too and he has much more options for it than Duck Hunt does. Poor, poor Duck Hunt.

Duck Hunt is better at killing with Customs but nobody plays those anymore.

I'd be concerned if single-hit attacks couldn't connect properly

I honestly don't see Duck Hunt's smashes completely fail to connect very often (maybe because I'm usually only hit by the last part of FSmash?). Doesn't help that the attacks are... kind of hard to see IMO. FSmash and USmash could probably be tweaked to link 99% of the time. DSmash seems harder but when it fails the opponent is usually sent too far away to retaliate so it's not a huge problem IMO. I mean, if USmash linked properly I'd be pretty scared of this frame 7 mutli-hit disjoint smash. Frame 12 is pretty good for an FSmash that can reach as far as his does, too. I heard that his smashes do less damage in actual matches than in training mode, I think. That almost sounds like a bigger issue in the long run.

Regarding Game & Watch's smashes... the disjoint on FSmash and DSmash is real. They're decently powerful when the sweetspot hits, too, and they do a good job at trapping landings and deflecting poorly timed ledge get up attacks. I did try to add a little note at the end of USmash in that I like how it functions, if it was appreciably faster it couldn't counterattack like it can now (and would likely greatly increase the time between the hitbox and the IASA which would suck). I just get mad when the Mario-type USmashes hit a character length behind them and mine can have the back of his head touching the opponent and still not connect.

The edgeguarding point is definitely valid though.

 

[DunnoBro]

I take issue with your statement about Duck Hunt being the worst at killing by a fair margin when Game & Watch exists. Now, my skill with Duck Hunt is pretty low. And he does seem to have significant problems killing. I won't directly refute your claim and say Game & Watch is the worst at killing because I feel that's a hard assessment to accurately make. But I'd like to bring some points up for discussion.

If DHD had GnW's usmash or Dthrow > Uair set-up (as inconsistent it may be) he'd probably be top tier imo. DHD's complete lack of kill set-ups, but also a lack of punishing/bait kill options is why he's so bad.

It may sound overly simplistic, but the simple fact he can't kill you for screwing up, mis-spacing, or hell, lacking the "just do it" factor most other characters get is pretty big.

As for DHD's smashes, neither the start-up or the inconsistent connecting is the issue. Yea, people fall out sometimes and that sucks, but let's look at this logically. Even finding a situation you could TRY hitting with those smashes is rare because of the awkward angles. And screwing up is a big punish.

Fsmash takes 67 frames to complete. Usmash and dsmash take 56/57.
GnWs are about 40 on average. And also stronger on average. (With invincibility and longer lasting hitboxes)

GnW has a lot of issues but give his smashes to DHD and he'll have no issues whatsoever.

Dsmash is... Interesting. The fact DHD can roll behind someone (with his top tier roll) and dsmash them, with the trajectory on his dsmash this means it'll kill in situations other dsmashes wouldn't. The multi-hit beats spotdodges and roll ins, roll away makes it safe. Since he can safely set up a roll-in with can and gunmen it's probably the closest thing he has to a kill set-up, but of course roll > dsmash has never been a viable strategy no matter how tuned the character seems to be for it.

 

[Radical Larry]

Depends on where you're measuring from. Starting point on 3DS FD vs Mario, it's more like 20%, with reduced growth partly to blame.

For the first hit it's more like a 45% increase, but that's due to the higher growth and BKB buff as well. Amusingly the first hit kills earlier than the second now, and kills pretty early at that (~115% in the aforementioned example). Finally has fitting power for a frame 14 aerial.

You know, it has even more power with rage on. At 100% damage rage (not max rage), Link can kill Mario as early as 85% near the center of Final Destination. Link's F-Air has some serious, serious knockback that needs to be respected, because it's more dangerous than Ike's F-Air off stage and on stage; it's probably become the most dangerous F-Air to go against now with the buff, the only other F-Air that I can think of that can be dangerous to go against is Villager's and it's because of his massive disjoint, though it's not due to knockback.

Edge-guarding wise, you can kill Mario (and characters like Ganondorf, Shulk, Falcon and other characters with bad recoveries) at a much earlier damage now. Damage wise, Link's F-Air is now the most powerful at 24% damage (beating Zelda's, which can only be 20%), and knockback wise, it's one of the more powerful F-Airs (definitely beaten by other F-Airs like DK's, Zelda's and Ganondorf's, but still powerful).

 

[Emblem Lord]

How much better would Ryu's neutral be if he had Marth's walk speed? If better at all, that is.

Everyone gets utilt locked.

Well, almost everyone.

You do not want this.

 

[Mario766]

You keep praising Link's edgeguarding and make his F-Air sound like a godsend for edgeguarding but I just.

Don't

See.

It.

You compare it to Ike's F-Air. Ike's F-Air comes out not only faster, it covers a much better arc for edgeguarding, from way above Ike's head to basically below his feet in a huge arc, and it does slightly less damage if you only get the 2nd hit, which is 1.5 percent more. They both have the same angle, because 361 = 45 if used on an aerial opponent, which is not optimal for edgeguarding, as you want the angle to be as horizontal as possible. The only way you're getting much better than Ike's F-Air is if you get both hits, which is wishful thinking at best now that the first hit sends you much further, making linking it off-stage harder.

Also 85 percent kill at the center of FD with Link's F-Air with 100 percent rage?

Excuse me for being pessimistic here, but I don't see it killing that early.

 

[Kofu]

If DHD had GnW's usmash or Dthrow > Uair set-up (as inconsistent it may be) he'd probably be top tier imo. DHD's complete lack of kill set-ups, but also a lack of punishing/bait kill options is why he's so bad.

It may sound overly simplistic, but the simple fact he can't kill you for screwing up, mis-spacing, or hell, lacking the "just do it" factor most other characters get is pretty big.

As for DHD's smashes, neither the start-up or the inconsistent connecting is the issue. Yea, people fall out sometimes and that sucks, but let's look at this logically. Even finding a situation you could TRY hitting with those smashes is rare because of the awkward angles. And screwing up is a big punish.

Fsmash takes 67 frames to complete. Usmash and dsmash take 56/57.
GnWs are about 40 on average. And also stronger on average. (With invincibility and longer lasting hitboxes)

GnW has a lot of issues but give his smashes to DHD and he'll have no issues whatsoever.

Dsmash is... Interesting. The fact DHD can roll behind someone (with his top tier roll) and dsmash them, with the trajectory on his dsmash this means it'll kill in situations other dsmashes wouldn't. The multi-hit beats spotdodges and roll ins, roll away makes it safe. Since he can safely set up a roll-in with can and gunmen it's probably the closest thing he has to a kill set-up, but of course roll > dsmash has never been a viable strategy no matter how tuned the character seems to be for it.

Honestly at this point it feels like a "the grass is greener on the other side" scenario and what ends up fitting better with each characters' kit.

The power issue I'll give you, as well as the total duration of the smash attacks (I'd be curious to see how other characters' smash attacks stack up too). Game & Watch probably has the safest overall set of Smashes in the game, but they're so slow that they're reactible in nearly all cases. Their hitbox duration isn't anything to write home about, though; FSmash and USmash are only active for two frames and DSmash for four. With the multi-hits Duck Hunt's have far more active frames to catch people (but I understand that most of those aren't directly lethal).

I'm not sure I see your point with not being to hit with his smashes with their "awkward angles." The hitbox positions are more or less typical, and FSmash feels like a lesser version of Gunner's/Cloud's with a disjointed, far-reaching multi-hit. Unless the "awkward angle" refers to how they link? You know, I'd probably take Duck Hunt's FSmash over Game & Watch's. It'd fit really well with his excellent dash animation.

I'll drop the issue, you're a better player than I am and I"m sure you know what you're talking about when it comes to Duck Hunt. And if I'm being totally honest, lacking kill options isn't Game & Watch's biggest issue. It's his complete lack of safe pokes. FTilt and DTilt last too long, and his aerials have really frustrating autocancel frames (nothing out of a short hop, anyway). He can out-button most characters unless they also have significant disjoint, but his whole neutral game is basically baiting because he's got nothing else. Characters who are fast enough to swat him during the baiting end up being his worst matchups.

 

[outfoxd]

Honestly at this point it feels like a "the grass is greener on the other side" scenario and what ends up fitting better with each characters' kit.

The power issue I'll give you, as well as the total duration of the smash attacks (I'd be curious to see how other characters' smash attacks stack up too). Game & Watch probably has the safest overall set of Smashes in the game, but they're so slow that they're reactible in nearly all cases. Their hitbox duration isn't anything to write home about, though; FSmash and USmash are only active for two frames and DSmash for four. With the multi-hits Duck Hunt's have far more active frames to catch people (but I understand that most of those aren't directly lethal).

I'm not sure I see your point with not being to hit with his smashes with their "awkward angles." The hitbox positions are more or less typical, and FSmash feels like a lesser version of Gunner's/Cloud's with a disjointed, far-reaching multi-hit. Unless the "awkward angle" refers to how they link? You know, I'd probably take Duck Hunt's FSmash over Game & Watch's. It'd fit really well with his excellent dash animation.

I'll drop the issue, you're a better player than I am and I"m sure you know what you're talking about when it comes to Duck Hunt. And if I'm being totally honest, lacking kill options isn't Game & Watch's biggest issue. It's his complete lack of safe pokes. FTilt and DTilt last too long, and his aerials have really frustrating autocancel frames (nothing out of a short hop, anyway). He can out-button most characters unless they also have significant disjoint, but his whole neutral game is basically baiting because he's got nothing else. Characters who are fast enough to swat him during the baiting end up being his worst matchups.

The shot placement of each fsmash is randomized and some angles cause the "slide out" or otherwise don't catch opponents the same way, at least i think that's what he means. Also, his smashes have deadzones around him to where they won't quite connect.

 

[TriTails]

According to Aero's Personal Awesome Maths Calculator:
Link's F-air first hit KB value on 80% Mario: 152.14040404040404
Link's F-air second hit KB value on 80% Mario: 146.63636363636363

For comparisons:
Dark Pit's grounded Electroshock Arm KB value on 80% Mario: 172.07737373737376
Ganon's F-air (18% hit) KB value on 80% Mario: 165.62484848484848
Little Mac's uncharged and unangled F-smash (19% hit) KB value on 80% Mario: 180.15

Not taking angle, DI, rage, and whatever stuffs not named 'Victim's percentage (Before hit)', 'base KB', 'KB growth', 'move's damage', or 'weight', but should give a rough estimate.

Probably really not reliable because no gravity or falling speed taken into account, but ah well.

 

[Nobie]

If I were responsible for making DHD's smashes more consistent, I would probably also lower their overall kill power, so DHD would be sort of a Sheik-type character whose difficulty killing comes less from an unreliable attack and more from needing to put in more work, let's say around 170%.

Some might think that's worse, but having a number you can rely on is a very big deal. Consider Marth, who has to rely on precise tipper hits the whole time, but as soon as you reach around 190%, watch out because suddenly Marth can just up throw you into oblivion. It's comforting for the user, scary (but avoidable) for the opponent, and it sets up a real sense of "early vs. late game" for each stock.

 

[outfoxd]

DH is weird. It's like they built him for a game of attrition but forgot to give him requisite survivability traits, like a villager recovery or DeDeDe weight or Shiek safety.

I look at Brawl Snake, who at least had power and was in a game where survival amd the long game was prominent and wonder where the dev team's head was at for DH.

 

[Emblem Lord]

so like...yall still think dev team is making adjustments based on competitiveness?

ok well imma be over here sipping my tea.

 

[Luco]

I think a lot of what made good was a lucky accident. Brawl Snake had DACUS and grenade reversals which allowed him to suddenly change / burst momentum and allowed him to circumvent his bad aerials to avoid the usual heavy issue of being juggled in most MUs. I see where you're coming from, though.

 

[Rizen]

I'm drinking tea right now, lol.

Snake had absurdly good tilts for a heavy powerful character. Frame 6 Utilt, 4 Ftilt with freakishly good reach. He was not balanced well at all but that's Brawl for you.

 

[C0rvus]

Duck Hunt is bad at recovering and killing because of his status as a zoning character. He has other attributes that are supposed to make up for this. Despite being in the same class of characters as , Duck Hunt has good dash speed, an actual grab with some followups, a relatively small frame, a good jab and some other decent boxing and spacing options.

Also consider the potency of his specials in conjunction with a recovery that wasn't a hindrance. He could get back to the stage for free between that, the gunmen and the can.

Do we want him to be able to kill more consistently? Yes, I do at least. But killing earlier might get silly. Duck Hunt could easily become an oppressive MU for any character with subpar neutral.

 

[Djmarcus44]

Duck Hunt is bad at recovering and killing because of his status as a zoning character. He has other attributes that are supposed to make up for this. Despite being in the same class of characters as , Duck Hunt has good dash speed, an actual grab with some followups, a relatively small frame, a good jab and some other decent boxing and spacing options.

Also consider the potency of his specials in conjunction with a recovery that wasn't a hindrance. He could get back to the stage for free between that, the gunmen and the can.

Do we want him to be able to kill more consistently? Yes, I do at least. But killing earlier might get silly. Duck Hunt could easily become an oppressive MU for any character with subpar neutral.

Actually, the characters you have listed above have a few of the options you have listed. Villager, PAC-MAN, ROB, and Olimar all have follow ups out of their throws (PAC-MAN has a forward throw that sets up jab locks. ROB and Olimar have true combos out of their throws. Villager has a pretty strong kill throw). ROB is the only character you listed with a frame that is not small. Also, Duck Hunt's size doesn't help him very much (He is still relatively easy to jab lock and combo). The only character that doesn't have a good jab on your list is ROB. All of the characters in this list have good spacing options that aren't projectiles.

Duck Hunt's recovery has good distance, but it is slow and easy to gimp. Also his specials are too laggy to cover his recovery in most cases. Most characters can jump over the special and attack Duck Hunt if the specials are used too often.

Duck Hunt killing earlier wouldn't make him oppressive to any character. They can still combo him effectively when they get in. Allowing Duck Hunt to kill characters earlier by making his smashes connect reliably will make Duck Hunt more balanced relative to the rest of the cast.

Kofu , Duck Hunt's forward smash starts on frame 17, and his up smash and down smash start on frame 12.

 

[BSP]

so like...yall still think dev team is making adjustments based on competitiveness?

ok well imma be over here sipping my tea.

I'm sure competitive players are the reason using teammate projectiles with TA on got nerfed. They're not ignoring us completely.

 

[Emblem Lord]

I wouldnt say they are ignoring us at all. I think we are observed to see if we can expose things that are not "in line" with their vision for the characters or anything that makes the game less fun.

If a char doesnt function correctly or their pros and cons dont line up then they get adjusted.

Busted team strats are not fun so they get toned down.

 

[Jehtt]

so like...yall still think dev team is making adjustments based on competitiveness?

I don't see how they are not. Would you care to explain?

 

[Sonicninja115]

Doesn't mew^2 occasionally participate at Xanadu?

Xanadu is MD/VA so I doubt it. Tantalus used Mewtwo once I think.

 

[LancerStaff]

I don't see how they are not. Would you care to explain?

Zelda and Shiek, namely. Puff I can see being stuck as bad due to her inherently poor design at least... If they were really making decisions based on even high level play then no sane person would be keeping Sheik and Zelda the way they are, or most of the lowest and highest tiers either.

 

[Emblem Lord]

I don't see how they are not. Would you care to explain?

When Capcom wants to balance a game they will call in pro level gamers to help them. Arcsys the makers of Guilty Gear are known for this as well.

You think Nintendo does this?

 

[outfoxd]

When Capcom wants to balance a game they will call in pro level gamers to help them. Arcsys the makers of Guilty Gear are known for this as well.

You think Nintendo does this?

Point taken.

You'd think Namco or Capcom mightve made the suggestion what with their hand in it.

Then again it's probably not a priority.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Hell they probably did.

Harada - "Hey, sak maybe I should call over some of the boys that won an EVO or two. Have em mess with the chars and see what they can find. Should make balancing way easier."

Sakurai raises an eyebrow

Sakurai - "Do you doubt me fam?"

Harada - "W..Well no, I just..."

Sakura - "BRUH!!! Me and my team got this ****."

 

[S_B]

Dashing is different to running. Dashing is a perfectly viable way to land grabs because you're not telegraphing as much

Agreed on that.

His dashgrab range doesn't seem that much shorter than his pivot grab range. Just try spacing it as if it had his pivot grab range. If you're in range of the hitbox you'll get hit out but the point is the range is so long that you you don't need to be in range to grab them out of it.

The pivot grab is definitely longer. I'd have to look into how MUCH longer.

His boost grab makes him go further, but we'd have to look into if his hurtbox is actually further away or not in these cases (I don't believe it is).

I don't have any vids of the tournament. Tbh I mentioned it more because I just found it funny.

Okay, but so you know, the context you put it in made it sound like it was an example of how much more powerful and possibly overpowered Bowser had become, what with saying a player who placed 33rd last time got 1st this time...

 

[Jehtt]

When Capcom wants to balance a game they will call in pro level gamers to help them. Arcsys the makers of Guilty Gear are known for this as well.

You think Nintendo does this?

They don't do this, you are correct. That does not mean that they aren't balancing the game for competitive play. It just means they do it differently than Capcom and Guilty Gear.

 

[FallofBrawl]

Besides I would rather have the current balance team behind patch decisions than certain top players that made certain **** tier lists.

 

[Baby_Sneak]

Hell they probably did.

Harada - "Hey, sak maybe I should call over some of the boys that won an EVO or two. Have em mess with the chars and see what they can find. Should make balancing way easier."

Sakurai raises an eyebrow

Sakurai - "Do you doubt me fam?"

Harada - "W..Well no, I just..."

Sakura - "BRUH!!! Me and my team got this ****."

as if sakurai is hip on American slang, but i digress.
It would be nice for top players to show his team that they're forgetting about jiggly, DHD, D3, samus and zelda

 

[Antonykun]

But Thinkaman ! Villager isn't a heavy!
(jokes)

hilariously enough girl villager is the fifth heaviest heaviest female character in the game behind Samus and the Miis at 95 units
pretty heavy for a kid

 

[Halifax?]

Besides I would rather have the current balance team behind patch decisions than certain top players that made certain **** tier lists.

"Alright Sakurai we've brought in 2 top level Smash 4 players, Vinnie and ESAM, to help us balance the game."