Official Character Competitive Impressions - Tourneys, Tiers, Theories, Tactics

[Angbad]

What about @Myran and Angbad ? Both are high-level Olimar players who are PR'd in their respective regions.

lol just from the whole summoning dabuz thing you know this guy has done absolutely 0 research on olimar in smash 4 so it's whatever.

 

[C0rvus]

Actually, the characters you have listed above have a few of the options you have listed. Villager, PAC-MAN, ROB, and Olimar all have follow ups out of their throws (PAC-MAN has a forward throw that sets up jab locks. ROB and Olimar have true combos out of their throws. Villager has a pretty strong kill throw). ROB is the only character you listed with a frame that is not small. Also, Duck Hunt's size doesn't help him very much (He is still relatively easy to jab lock and combo). The only character that doesn't have a good jab on your list is ROB. All of the characters in this list have good spacing options that aren't projectiles.

Duck Hunt's recovery has good distance, but it is slow and easy to gimp. Also his specials are too laggy to cover his recovery in most cases. Most characters can jump over the special and attack Duck Hunt if the specials are used too often.

Duck Hunt killing earlier wouldn't make him oppressive to any character. They can still combo him effectively when they get in. Allowing Duck Hunt to kill characters earlier by making his smashes connect reliably will make Duck Hunt more balanced relative to the rest of the cast.

@Kofu, Duck Hunt's forward smash starts on frame 17, and his up smash and down smash start on frame 12.

My point is noone else has the combination of all of them like Duck Hunt does. Villager and Pac Man have awful grabs. ROB is not very mobile and is a huge target. Olimar has a pseudo tether grab, but his is pretty good. All of them have recovery moves with no hitbox, but they have ways to attack out of it (ROB, Olimar) or mix it up (Pac, Villager).
Regardless, I am very hopeful that Duck Hunt gets some needed buffs because as it stands, he seems like an imcomplete character.

 

[Nu~]

My point is noone else has the combination of all of them like Duck Hunt does. Villager and Pac Man have awful grabs. ROB is not very mobile and is a huge target. Olimar has a pseudo tether grab, but his is pretty good. All of them have recovery moves with no hitbox, but they have ways to attack out of it (ROB, Olimar) or mix it up (Pac, Villager).
Regardless, I am very hopeful that Duck Hunt gets some needed buffs because as it stands, he seems like an imcomplete character.

Actually...
Both pac jump and power pellet trail have hitboxes

 

[Man Li Gi]

BUFF DK's back air? Bruh.

You don't want that. I don't want that. That move is godlike as it is.

Hell yeah I'm crazy enough to want that. In other words I notice they only seem to buff what fits their preordained, but not so transluscent picture of character archetypes. If decided to buff something else let's say his approach or landing, he would be more scary than bufinh his bairs.

The move is good, but vastly overrated. It combos into itself....if the opponent decides to put down their controller and watch it combo. It kills......relatively late since it has high base knock back, but low scaling.....meaning it kills decently early if you so close to the blastzone, but midstage is difficult. It also stales like a modo. On top of that, it extends DKs hurtbox to unbelievable levels. If ur not able to punish even a max spaced DK bairs, then that may be MU inexperience. Don't get me wrong, I know the move is good and has utility, but is it really that good? You guys forgot that its on DK not SheDK.

 

[TTTTTsd]

Hell yeah I'm crazy enough to want that. In other words I notice they only seem to buff what fits their preordained, but not so transluscent picture of character archetypes. If decided to buff something else let's say his approach or landing, he would be more scary than bufinh his bairs.

The move is good, but vastly overrated. It combos into itself....if the opponent decides to put down their controller and watch it combo. It kills......relatively late since it has high base knock back, but low scaling.....meaning it kills decently early if you so close to the blastzone, but midstage is difficult. It also stales like a modo. On top of that, it extends DKs hurtbox to unbelievable levels. If ur not able to punish even a max spaced DK bairs, then that may be MU inexperience. Don't get me wrong, I know the move is good and has utility, but is it really that good? You guys forgot that its on DK not SheDK.

Iunno, if the move got too good people would just stop getting hit by it. It's happened before in other games even outside of Smash, overbuffing one thing eventually leads to even stronger counterplay and it often ends up hurting the character. I think it's already a fairly good move that doesn't really need to be any better, for its own sake.

 

[Baby_Sneak]

Hell yeah I'm crazy enough to want that. In other words I notice they only seem to buff what fits their preordained, but not so transluscent picture of character archetypes. If decided to buff something else let's say his approach or landing, he would be more scary than bufinh his bairs.

The move is good, but vastly overrated. It combos into itself....if the opponent decides to put down their controller and watch it combo. It kills......relatively late since it has high base knock back, but low scaling.....meaning it kills decently early if you so close to the blastzone, but midstage is difficult. It also stales like a modo. On top of that, it extends DKs hurtbox to unbelievable levels. If ur not able to punish even a max spaced DK bairs, then that may be MU inexperience. Don't get me wrong, I know the move is good and has utility, but is it really that good? You guys forgot that its on DK not SheDK.

How instead we buff his less used moves like his smashes and Dair? That way he won't be even more linear ( not saying DK is linear or any character in the game for that matter. Every character has variety, even little Mac).

 

[C0rvus]

Actually...
Both pac jump and power pellet trail have hitboxes

I'm actually ********. How on earth could I forget that? I was just playing Pac yesterday...

Pac Man is a weird one alright. When I play him it feels like everything I do has clearly visible counterplay. But his tools are so varied and interesting that I want to keep trying. Don't know if I could hack it.

 

[Big-Cat]

Hell yeah I'm crazy enough to want that. In other words I notice they only seem to buff what fits their preordained, but not so transluscent picture of character archetypes. If decided to buff something else let's say his approach or landing, he would be more scary than bufinh his bairs.

The move is good, but vastly overrated. It combos into itself....if the opponent decides to put down their controller and watch it combo. It kills......relatively late since it has high base knock back, but low scaling.....meaning it kills decently early if you so close to the blastzone, but midstage is difficult. It also stales like a modo. On top of that, it extends DKs hurtbox to unbelievable levels. If ur not able to punish even a max spaced DK bairs, then that may be MU inexperience. Don't get me wrong, I know the move is good and has utility, but is it really that good? You guys forgot that its on DK not SheDK.

That makes sense though. DK is a punisher character, not rushdown. His main goal should be to reward patient play with big damage. You can see this in Ding Dong, FAir, and DAir. IMO, his BAir is more of just a poke and zoning tool to keep the opponent away from center stage.

 

[S_B]

Nah, he's about right. Duck hunt is bar none the worst character in the game at killing by a fair margin, and with the goal of the game being to kill your opponent... That puts him pretty far down overall. He has some quirks, but nothing that comes even close to matching that weakness.

IMO, Duck hunt is clearly the overall worst character in the game. Palutena is God(des)-like in customs, as she was designed. Zelda also functions great in doubles. Both these characters are worlds superior to DHD in Free for Alls AND dubs, which DHD can't really function in (unless it's customs)

While in singles he probably functions better than those characters, it isn't by much.

Mewtwo, Lucas, and Bowser were in the running for worst character too but... Well, we know what happened to them.

Unless he was also designed for customs (which I find very possible considering how perfectly zigzag functions with his kit) then I find it kind of odd he hasn't received buffs. Only explanation would be early 3ds impressions of the character.

I completely agree with this and I respect the hell out of anyone who even tried to main DH.

I wouldn't say Bowser was in the running for WORST character. He at least had some even matchups with a number of characters, but he got wrecked by all of the high tiers (and still largely does).

But yeah, I'm not sure why DH hasn't been buffed yet. The character is just so damn bad in so many ways...

I think they should just give Duck Hunt a hoo-haa and get it over with (tentatively called the "quack-bark" ), but at the VERY least, the smash attacks should always, ALWAYS chain together.

As was mentioned, they're EXTREMELY laggy and there's just not enough reward for even landing them...

I'd be using gold bricks as toilet paper.

That's a bad idea for all KINDS of reasons... (but I get what you're saying)

 

[Djmarcus44]

My point is noone else has the combination of all of them like Duck Hunt does. Villager and Pac Man have awful grabs. ROB is not very mobile and is a huge target. Olimar has a pseudo tether grab, but his is pretty good. All of them have recovery moves with no hitbox, but they have ways to attack out of it (ROB, Olimar) or mix it up (Pac, Villager).
Regardless, I am very hopeful that Duck Hunt gets some needed buffs because as it stands, he seems like an imcomplete character.

While Duck Hunt has unique tools compared to other zoners, he also is lacking in important things (kill power and a safe recovery) that make him worse than the characters that you listed. I understand your point (although it seemed like you thought too highly of Duck Hunt relative to the characters you listed, I fully understand your point now), but it would be better if you don't underrate the tools of other characters in the process of making your point.

 

[C0rvus]

Trust me, I know Duck Hunt is bad. I didn't mean to dig on other characters. That wasn't my intent at all. They are all far better than DH anyway. My point was to perhaps rationalize Duck Hunt's hyperbolic weaknesses using similar characters as a framework.

 

[Big-Cat]

Do you guys ever consider that Duck Hunt's goal is to get them off the stage and simply unable to return? He can already do that with the right projectile walling off stage. Nevermind using the projectiles like stands while you keep them away and fall to their doom.

 

[DungeonMaster]

When Capcom wants to balance a game they will call in pro level gamers to help them. Arcsys the makers of Guilty Gear are known for this as well.
You think Nintendo does this?

Fairly confident nearly a year in now that the balance criteria is .... global smash power.

 

[S_B]

Do you guys ever consider that Duck Hunt's goal is to get them off the stage and simply unable to return? He can already do that with the right projectile walling off stage. Nevermind using the projectiles like stands while you keep them away and fall to their doom.

It hypothetically COULD be, but I'm just not seeing it happening.

The projectiles are good, sure, but we're talking about managing to keep out characters with some pretty amazing recoveries, and that includes actually prying them off the stage in the neutral to begin with.

It's a shame because DH is easily the most original and unique character in this game (at least IMO), but it's a concept that just ain't working. I seriously can't imagine that the FG stats for DH is very good, and especially not for FFAs where pretty much anyone else is going to get those kills before DH does.

Maybe just buff the ever-loving crap out of the can's knockback. If there's any character that deserves to have a projectile that kills VERY well, it's DH.

 

[Sonicninja115]

Do you guys ever consider that Duck Hunt's goal is to get them off the stage and simply unable to return? He can already do that with the right projectile walling off stage. Nevermind using the projectiles like stands while you keep them away and fall to their doom.

But it is rather easy to recover against a DH. It isn't as easy as some characters, but I would put his ledge guarding game around the same level as Diddy's. He has tools, but nothing spectacular, and only a character with a poor recovery would get hit. Even Fox might not have trouble against DH's LG game.

 

[Radical Larry]

You keep praising Link's edgeguarding and make his F-Air sound like a godsend for edgeguarding but I just.

Don't

See.

It.

You compare it to Ike's F-Air. Ike's F-Air comes out not only faster, it covers a much better arc for edgeguarding, from way above Ike's head to basically below his feet in a huge arc, and it does slightly less damage if you only get the 2nd hit, which is 1.5 percent more. They both have the same angle, because 361 = 45 if used on an aerial opponent, which is not optimal for edgeguarding, as you want the angle to be as horizontal as possible. The only way you're getting much better than Ike's F-Air is if you get both hits, which is wishful thinking at best now that the first hit sends you much further, making linking it off-stage harder.

Also 85 percent kill at the center of FD with Link's F-Air with 100 percent rage?

Excuse me for being pessimistic here, but I don't see it killing that early.

Ah, but that's the thing, Ike's F-Air starts at Ike's head, not in front of him. Even if you factor in it only having 2 frames more speed on it, Ike's F-Air has to get toward the opponent first whereas Link's is directly in front of him the second the hitbox starts, never minding the 2 frame difference. Secondly, you're forgetting a key concept of perception is that some players will activate Link's F-Air earlier than Ike's and could still hit Ike regardless of Ike having the faster F-Air. It's about coming out first.

Secondly, let me talk about knockback. Now you might argue that they have the same angle, and they do, but we go by their knockback. While Link's BKB on F-Air hit 1 is 10 less than Ike's (Ike's being 30), Link's KBG is far superior to that of Ike's, being at a whopping 130 for Ike's 100. So even if you factor in damage output and frame data, that will not matter when Link's F-Air has better knockback growth as damage increases.

Without rage, center of FD, Link's F-Air 1 can kill Mario at 125% damage. Ike's on the other hand, kills Mario at 138% damage.
On the quarter mark, Link's kills at 111% damage. Ike kills at 121% damage.
At the edge, Link is around 91%. Ike is at 100% when Mario dies.

The fun fact is, is that Ike's F-Air kills the same time as Link's F-Air hit 2 by theory. They both have the same BKB and KBG.

So Link's F-Air 1, despite being only 2 frames slower and having less damage output, kills Mario much faster than Ike's ever would. 13%, 11% and 9% differences surely do mean a lot, even if the damage numbers aren't significant. You say that the angle of Link's F-Air isn't optimal for edge-guarding, but the knockback he gives out of the first hit is actually very optimal in edge-guarding opponents at damages around 40% or so. If your opponent wastes their second jump, they're a goner when Link uses his F-Air. And even if you send them at a high enough angle, you can always set up another attack or the knockback will be so great, the opponent will be KO'd.

It doesn't matter if you can link Link's F-Air off stage, what matters is the fact that it is better at edge-guarding with the first hit of the attack, which is very significant considering Ike's comes out first though and does more damage. And if you're using both attacks on stage and land (no AC), who do you think will get their next movement out faster? Link with his 12 frames or Ike with his 18 frames? Link could pull out a Spin Attack before Ike would be able to get a jab on him if both land on the ground without hurting each other, for example. None of Ike's attacks are Frame 2 attacks, so if you do the math, Link will land a hit before Ike's frame 4 jab would even hit him.

Also, Link's F-Air linking together is for his improved ledge getup option with going back, jumping forward and using an attack. That's one of two primary purposes Link's F-Air linking together are. Another is that you just shield pressure or hit the opponent while their damage is still low.

Finally, getting to rage, Link's F-Air DOES, after some extensive testing, kill Mario. I was wrong about it being at 100% damage (Link's side) rage, it was around 120% rage that I could kill Mario around the 85% to 94% mark, hit one, quarter stage with no DI.

But in the very end, Link's F-Air is an attack that has to be utterly respected and not underestimated. It's more powerful on hit 1 than Ike's entire F-Air is, KB-wise. There are things that people underestimate about Link and his F-Air buff is one of them. If you don't look outside your stigma, then you're going to have a relatively bad time.

 

[outfoxd]

It hypothetically COULD be, but I'm just not seeing it happening.

The projectiles are good, sure, but we're talking about managing to keep out characters with some pretty amazing recoveries, and that includes actually prying them off the stage in the neutral to begin with.

It's a shame because DH is easily the most original and unique character in this game (at least IMO), but it's a concept that just ain't working. I seriously can't imagine that the FG stats for DH is very good, and especially not for FFAs where pretty much anyone else is going to get those kills before DH does.

Maybe just buff the ever-loving crap out of the can's knockback. If there's any character that deserves to have a projectile that kills VERY well, it's DH.

Buffing can kb is weird of itself since it's his only combo breaker atm.

 

[Mario766]

I'm gonna have a bad time against a frame 14 move that has a purely horizontal hitbox and is very easy to predict that it's coming out.

Yeah.

Sure.

I'll be more scared of Toon Link's almost 100 BKB 13 damage F-Air which hits like a truck KB wise for how much better his moility is.

Here's the other issue. You're trying to talk about using a frame 14 move to edgeguard with. That requires either a bad play on the opponents part, or a strong read on your part. No one is gonna jump into a frame 14 move, hell they won't even jump into a frame 12 move like Ike's F-Air. Even if Ike's F-Air starts on frame 12 it'll hit in the same area of Link's either on frame 13 or 14, depending on if they are slightly above or below Ike, which is either 1 frame faster or same frame as Link's. You also have air speed. Link's air speed is abysmal, and with a frame 7 jumpsquat, like Ike, it's much harder to go out and edgeguard compared to other characters with better jumpsquat and/or air speed.

How do you set up these F-Air edgeguards? You can't use a projectile, as they take far too long for you to be able to follow-up on unless you're going out and putting yourself at risk. Do you just jump out and try to hit them with it? That's predictable, so if they react correctly now you're massively at risk with a poor recovery and bad air mobility leaving you wide open to a reversal.

Yes, Link's F-Air hits hard, is it easy to use like how you describe? No. It'll kill Mario at quarter screen about the same as Ike's Dash Attack kills with no rage at the ledge percent wise.




Buffing can KB would also have a massive down side like outfoxd said.

Can combo breaker -> suicide?

10/10.

 

[S_B]

Buffing can KB would also have a massive down side like outfoxd said.

Can combo breaker -> suicide?

10/10.

They can reduce the self-damage/KB done by it separately from what it does to an enemy.

Isn't it Link's bombs that have the property where, if they detonate on an enemy, they don't damage Link?

That sounds like an entirely fair buff to give DH, IMO...

 

[outfoxd]

They can reduce the self-damage/KB done by it separately from what it does to an enemy.

Isn't it Link's bombs that have the property where, if they detonate on an enemy, they don't damage Link?

That sounds like an entirely fair buff to give DH, IMO...

Right now can just does slightly less to DH, i believe.

 

[S_B]

Right now can just does slightly less to DH, i believe.

Yeah, I'd either turn that WAY down or make it simply not affect DH at all.

Make it so the can is a "safe zone" for DH and a tool to better control space. Maybe when the can detonates on its own, sure, the blast will hit DH (as Link's bombs do for him if they go off on their own), but if it hits an enemy, no damage at all. DH could even combo into hits with the can very quickly that way.

Also, it'd be cool if you could command the gunmen to fire by pressing down+B a second time, or they'd fire after like 5 seconds or so.

 

[Radical Larry]

I'm gonna have a bad time against a frame 14 move that has a purely horizontal hitbox and is very easy to predict that it's coming out.

Yeah.

Sure.

I'll be more scared of Toon Link's almost 100 BKB 13 damage F-Air which hits like a truck KB wise for how much better his moility is.

Here's the other issue. You're trying to talk about using a frame 14 move to edgeguard with. That requires either a bad play on the opponents part, or a strong read on your part. No one is gonna jump into a frame 14 move, hell they won't even jump into a frame 12 move like Ike's F-Air. Even if Ike's F-Air starts on frame 12 it'll hit in the same area of Link's either on frame 13 or 14, depending on if they are slightly above or below Ike, which is either 1 frame faster or same frame as Link's. You also have air speed. Link's air speed is abysmal, and with a frame 7 jumpsquat, like Ike, it's much harder to go out and edgeguard compared to other characters with better jumpsquat and/or air speed.

How do you set up these F-Air edgeguards? You can't use a projectile, as they take far too long for you to be able to follow-up on unless you're going out and putting yourself at risk. Do you just jump out and try to hit them with it? That's predictable, so if they react correctly now you're massively at risk with a poor recovery and bad air mobility leaving you wide open to a reversal.

Yes, Link's F-Air hits hard, is it easy to use like how you describe? No. It'll kill Mario at quarter screen about the same as Ike's Dash Attack kills with no rage at the ledge percent wise.




Buffing can KB would also have a massive down side like outfoxd said.

Can combo breaker -> suicide?

10/10.

Alright, let me delve into this.

First off, the first two sentences I will be going at first. First of all, Link's attack might be frame 14, but if you go for an air dodge, you're not going to really going to be able to do much if you air dodge too early. Link has a second hit after all, something Toon Link doesn't have.

In fact, Toon Link's F-Air hits at the same time, deals as much damage as Link's F-Air 2 and has Ike-level landing lag! Even Toon Link's F-Air is worse than Link's. How? Those aforementioned evidences as well as Toon Link's F-Air being a 2 frame F-Air and despite having 98 BKB, has abysmal KBG at 35. It's also the same speed as Link's F-Air, only without the opportunity to defeat air dodging opponents.

Secondly, it's not at all hard to edge guard with a frame 14 move, regardless of the plays. All you just have to do is find your opponent, know if they have their second jump, if they have a good recovery or not or just outright hit them out of their recoveries. Heavies like DK and Bowser won't last long against Link's F-Air. Little Mac won't last, and Ryu now can't Tatsumaki back on stage at the risk of actually being edge-guarded by Link's F-Air.

Also, let me make this point; ROB. ROB has a frame 18 N-Air and can actually edge-guard quite well with it because it has a disjoint to it. Ganondorf. Ganondorf has a frame 14 F-Air that is his primary (other than D-Air and U-Air) method of edge-guarding. Most of the time, the opponent HAS TO RECOVER off stage in order for an edge-guard play to happen off stage. You don't have to read an opponent to know when they're going to recover, you can just see it and then retaliate against them.

How do I set up F-Air edge guards with Link? Link's projectiles aren't bad at all at various damages from mid to high. Link's Bombs are pretty decent edge-guard setups, Link's Gale Boomerang is a good thing to hit opponents recovering from above, and heck, like I stated before, just know when the opponent recovers. Then you can just punish with an RAR F-Air stage spike or an F-Air to their face. It's not as hard as you make it out to be.

Link's F-Air is easy to use, and you yourself make it seem like it's the hardest thing to do when it's just not. It's a tool that you wouldn't understand unless you can find ways to actually use it. Does it hit only horizontally? Yes. Does it have extreme range? Yes. Does it have extreme KB? Absolutely. Does the attack have the ability to edge guard? Of course.

Now if we were talking about Link's B-Air, things would be a lot different since it's not a potent edge-guarding tool. You could get a stage spike off of it, but nothing more than that.

 

[DunnoBro]

Trick shot does the same to him and the opponent, it's just people think it does more to opponents cause the actual shot + can hit can only hit the opponent.

It being stronger would have a downside, true. But duck hunt makes far more efficient use of it than the opponent can. Unfortunately I doubt they'll buff it too much because of the kamikaze factor.

Honestly, less knockback + faster travel speed of the can would be the most realistic buff and help a lot. (They should also buff fair a teeny bit so it can kill off can explosion combos)

 

[Y2Kay]

I keep hearing about how zig zag shot is so good with DHD, but I don't know why. Could someone elaborate?

 

[S_B]

Unfortunately I doubt they'll buff it too much because of the kamikaze factor.

I don't see anything wrong with removing the kamikaze factor entirely. The move comes out slowly enough, and it makes it more dangerous to be right in DH's face.

If Link's bombs (which he can toss at a moment's notice after pulling them) don't blow up on Link, I don't see why DH's can doesn't blow up on them.

 

[Wintermelon43]

I keep hearing about how zig zag shot is so good with DHD, but I don't know why. Could someone elaborate?

This has been something I've been wondering for like, more than half a year

 

[S_B]

This has been something I've been wondering for like, more than half a year

Ask DunnoBro as he's one of the only people I've seen use it effectively.

 

[C0rvus]

Because it can be used to secure early kills. It patches up that gaping hole in DH's game, but still functions as the can should.

 

[S_B]

On a side note, Guy's DH just took a game off of ZD's Luigi...

http://www.twitch.tv/vgbootcamp

EDIT: ...And he took the set.

 

[TriTails]

On a side note, Guy's DH just took a game off of ZD's Luigi...

http://www.twitch.tv/vgbootcamp

EDIT: ...And he took the set.

Taking a set off Luigi isn't much of an achievement compared to pre-patch. Have a DH take a set off Sheiks, ZSSes, or 'insert top tiers here', THEN we can scream.

 

[Ffamran]

Didn't someone ask about Japan or SHI-G's tier list? I don't have a source nor do I remember who asked for which, so take this with a grain of salt until someone can confirm it... Of all the places to see this first... the Zelda social.

Once again, I really don't understand why the Pits aren't just lopped together. They're barely different compared to Dr. Mario and Mario and Lucina and Marth. To me, it's more like a "legalized custom Pit" where yes, because you have different functioning moves that also includes a randomly weaker Ftilt, you will have to deal with things differently, but because you're barely any different, might as well have them be considered the same fighter. Also, I fail to see how Samus is considered that bad. I mean, really? Oh, and finally! Ike's actually considered good. Meanwhile, Marth... Oh, and Bowser's placing seems a little too... optimistic. Don't know much about Nintendo of America's Vice President of Sales, but I feel like he should be at most in B for now since while his U-throw is now a fantastic setup, Bowser still has his other old troubles.

 

[CyberHyperPhoenix]

Didn't someone ask about Japan or SHI-G's tier list? I don't have a source nor do I remember who asked for which, so take this with a grain of salt until someone can confirm it... Of all the places to see this first... the Zelda social.

Once again, I really don't understand why the Pits aren't just lopped together. They're barely different compared to Dr. Mario and Lucina and Marth. To me, it's more like a "legalized custom Pit" where yes, because you have different functioning moves that also includes a randomly weaker Ftilt, you will have to deal with things differently, but because you're barely any different, might as well have them be considered the same fighter. Also, I fail to see how Samus is considered that bad. I mean, really? Oh, and finally! Ike's actually considered good. Meanwhile, Marth... Oh, and Bowser's placing seems a little too... optimistic. Don't know much about Nintendo of America's Vice President of Sales, but I feel like he should be at most in B for now since while his U-throw is now a fantastic setup, Bowser's still has his other old troubles.

This is the original source/tweet in question:

There was a problem fetching the tweet

As far as I can see, people seem to be content with calling this tier list a joke bar maybe the high and top tiers

 

[TriTails]

Oh, the groupings don't seem to be in order.

Only thing I would change is Greninja's position, perhaps Ike's as well but happy to see him being rated better.

EDIT: And Lucas.

But I think this tier list is decent enough.

Bowser being that high is a little too optimistic but having a consistent kill setup is a huge boon, to be sure, but I won't swallow it until I see more Bowsers taking names.

 

[Strong-Arm]

Honestly I dont agree with Roy being that low

 

[C0rvus]

It's a good list for sure. High tier is on point imo.
Shulk above Robin and on par with Ike speaks to their playerbase. They had 9B's Shulk, and no real Robin or Ike players of note.
I know they have Brood, but that Duck Hunt placement is too generous.

 

[Wintropy]

Obligatory comment about Japan's very high opinion of Pit (no doubt due to Earth being one of their finest players) and prediction that Dark Pit will rise a bit when the full impact of his side-b buff is felt...

Now that that's out of the way, what really catches my attention is Cloud's placement: he's been out for barely a couple of weeks now and he's considered a potential threat in the Japanese meta. I don't know exactly what the west thinks of him right now (too early to tell, I know), but I recall him causing a few upsets in both regions. Very interesting. Will have to keep an eye on this new challenger.

Can somebody remind me what exactly he's done in Japan to generate that kind of hype? I know there were a few sets with him recently, but I'm tired and can't remember who played him and who was beaten by him.

 

[wedl!!]

The conductor of Cloud's hype train in the Ring of Fire is Komokiri using him as a serious secondary for his Sonic. Last tournament he entered (I think) he got fifth with Cloud.

 

[CyberHyperPhoenix]

Obligatory comment about Japan's very high opinion of Pit (no doubt due to Earth being one of their finest players) and prediction that Dark Pit will rise a bit when the full impact of his side-b buff is felt...

Now that that's out of the way, what really catches my attention is Cloud's placement: he's been out for barely a couple of weeks now and he's considered a potential threat in the Japanese meta. I don't know exactly what the west thinks of him right now (too early to tell, I know), but I recall him causing a few upsets in both regions. Very interesting. Will have to keep an eye on this new challenger.

Can somebody remind me what exactly he's done in Japan to generate that kind of hype? I know there were a few sets with him recently, but I'm tired and can't remember who played him and who was beaten by him.

Komorikiri got 5th at Pre-KVO with Cloud, nothing else comes to mind other than that.

 

[Jucchan]

Didn't someone ask about Japan or SHI-G's tier list? I don't have a source nor do I remember who asked for which, so take this with a grain of salt until someone can confirm it... Of all the places to see this first... the Zelda social.

Once again, I really don't understand why the Pits aren't just lopped together. They're barely different compared to Dr. Mario and Lucina and Marth. To me, it's more like a "legalized custom Pit" where yes, because you have different functioning moves that also includes a randomly weaker Ftilt, you will have to deal with things differently, but because you're barely any different, might as well have them be considered the same fighter. Also, I fail to see how Samus is considered that bad. I mean, really? Oh, and finally! Ike's actually considered good. Meanwhile, Marth... Oh, and Bowser's placing seems a little too... optimistic. Don't know much about Nintendo of America's Vice President of Sales, but I feel like he should be at most in B for now since while his U-throw is now a fantastic setup, Bowser's still has his other old troubles.

This by eSportsRunner, a Japanese game guide site. AFAIK the only notable players involved with this list's creation are Shimitake and Rom. Not reliable.

 

[Pazzo.]

If I recall, all DLC characters have been looked at favorably, barring Mewtwo, at one point usually early. But only Ryu's been able to stick up there.