Official Character Competitive Impressions - Tourneys, Tiers, Theories, Tactics

[DunnoBro]

Seen like 20 Ryu/Cloud combo mains since Cloud came out. They're honestly kind of simplistic and at least Cloud is definitely stealing Mario's "Best Secondary" status imo

 

[Emblem Lord]

Speaking about Cloud's matchups, I find Shulk vs Cloud really interesting to think about/play, mostly because of shield art.

While Cloud's dtilt is often good at punishing SH aerial approaches, for once in the entire game the fact that Shulk's starts below him is a good thing. Unfortunately for Shulk, since Clouds legs are intangible during dtilt (or something to that effect) the attacks only cancel out.

The Shield art seems to do a pretty good job of making some of Clouds limit a non factor for awhile. Finishing touch can't kill Shield Shulk before 120% (For reference, it kills everyone else from ~60-70%). It also reduce the damage of cross slash.

Shulk can act out of regular climhazzard before it finishes (if you choose to use the second hit, he can act in between).

Shulk's Nair (and other attacks, but mostly Nair) eat through blade beam and continue on.

Speed and Jump make it harder to try to camp him out to charge limit. Camping out for limit also has the effect of giving Shulk time to get the shield Monado art back.

Even with Cloud's step forward, Shulk's Fmash outranges all the hits of clouds. Shulk also outranges on Fair, unsure about Nair.

Shulk's jump art allows deep gimps even against a limit holding Cloud off stage.

Cloud gets to juggle Shulk for days with uair though. I just talked about the Shulk pros in this matchup, since I'm sure everyone else can already/would want to speak on Cloud's. Perhaps it could be Shulks saving grace matchup, ala Dr. Mario and
Pikachu.
Still completely surprised that the Nair starting below Shulk actually helps. "Never thought I'd see the day."

Any Clouds fought any Shulks yet?

I fear I'm actually starting think Shulk's not completely awful. I did, but that was before the shield stun and last patch buffs made Nair and retreating fair/bair so safe on shield...

Ok, so here is my thoughts on the match.

Shulk wins.

Did i do it right?

 

[S_B]

>Pacman lower than the likes of toon link and lucario
>Robin in C+ tier after all his buffs

Maybe Pac-Man will get some unneeded buffs after all?
And Robin is going to ascend to top tier after all the extra buffs he will receive in February lol.


Edit: And for some reason, Yoshi is still in A with meager results.

TBH, I'm inclined to dismiss that tier list completely.

As I said, Bowser is in the B+ tier, despite the fact that I've NEVER seen a pre-Shell Shock Bowser player in a Japanese tournament, ever.

That being the case, what the HELL are they basing this tier list on besides opinion?

 

[AnEventHorizon]

Ok, so here is my thoughts on the match.

Shulk wins.

Did i do it right?

Well I was hoping for a bit more substance, but sure. Hopefully you weren't joking and I missed that.

Is this just from theory or did you encounter some Shulks in practice?

 

[Emblem Lord]

Straight up how i feel their tools interact.

I have yet to fight a shulk with Cloud and considering how rare they are, I doubt I ever will.

 

[Sonicninja115]

Straight up how i feel their tools interact.

I have yet to fight a shulk with Cloud and considering how rare they are, I doubt I ever will.

I think Shulk just has better tools in the MU, ones that are particularly annoying for Cloud, MALLC aerials, Fair edge guards and such. I don't think it is too much in Shulks favor though.

 

[wpwood]

So about the Japanese Tier list, anyone else notice how the lowest tier is C- tier and that D, E, and F are not even there? Maybe I'm interpreting it wrong, but I'm glad to see a tier list like that. Maybe once the meta develops more a D tier would be necessary, but for now I think that feels about right. I might not agree with the placement of a few characters but overall I like the design of the tier list. What you guys thoughts on there not being a D, E, or F tier in the Japanese Tier list? Since our metas are different who would you say has the more advanced meta?

 

[S_B]

So about the Japanese Tier list, anyone else notice how the lowest tier is C- tier and that D, E, and F are not even there? Maybe I'm interpreting it wrong, but I'm glad to see a tier list like that. Maybe once the meta develops more a D tier would be necessary, but for now I think that feels about right. I might not agree with the placement of a few characters but overall I like the design of the tier list. What you guys thoughts on there not being a D, E, or F tier in the Japanese Tier list? Since our metas are different who would you say has the more advanced meta?

I'd say we do because the best players in the world are still mostly in North America. Abadango placed well at Evo, but other than him, I don't think there was another Japanese player in top 8.

Hopefully, we'll see some more at Genesis 3...

 

[TTTTTsd]

Cloud is going to get it. Alot. He really is not vulnerable charging it.

I'm inclined to agree with this. It's a charge function that can be cancelled like 6 frames in and it can be cancelled into legitimately any option possible regardless of whether or not he's in the air or on the ground.

Also considering how the damage he takes builds it for free and the damage he incurs also builds it while this all tangentially stacks also tends to help contribute. It's hard to really understand how fast it actually builds until you play a good one/try it for yourself.

Additionally taking stocks with Rage isn't really too hard and considering he is a fastfaller with a weight of 100 this is pretty plausible as a strategy as well. Cloud's Back Air has comparable power to Dr. Mario's (perhaps slightly more, .44% less damage but 10 more BKB) and is incredibly disjointed, much like the rest of his moves. It's not incredibly fast but it covers a wide angle and becomes very viable with any fair amount of Rage.

I've also been experimenting with Fullhop Instant Dair to cover ledge getup options on reaction. The minute you see the character move just do it, I think it covers an absurd amount of things, and since it autocancels you can retreat with it (esp. if you're in Limit because his mobility becomes ridiculous) and land safely if nothing hits.

I also enjoy how when Cloud is in Limit mode he essentially has the mobility to whiff punish a lot of attacks assuming he's playing reactively. A runspeed above ZSS and an airspeed as high as it is in Limit is pretty absurd, really.

As it stands right now I am of the opinion that this character is very very good and most certainly viable and worth learning/using.

 

[RonNewcomb]

Since someone asked an open-ended question about edge-guarding, let me do the same.

Can someone tell me about rising aerials?

I come from a Street Fighter background where rising aerials are wildly unsafe even on hit, so I don't have them in my Smash play (vs grounded opponents) at all. Although I see double-jumps and airdodges make them less suicidal here, .... what are they good for? Who has good ones or bad ones, and why?

Cloud's aerials are dumb, I always thought so. Especially with that weight and mobility.

Sakurai strongly hinted in the recent Famitsu that Cloud will be receiving nerfs. I can find the link if desired.

 

[TTTTTsd]

Sakurai strongly hinted in the recent Famitsu that Cloud will be receiving nerfs. I can find the link if desired.

I'd like to think that this wouldn't happen but I can always idealize the fact that it'll probably be something along the lines of Falcon or something.

If they gut this character one patch into his lifespan I'll be incredibly upset. Link me so I can read it and discern if he's actually going to do anything massive.

 

[-RedX-]

I'd like to think that this wouldn't happen but I can always idealize the fact that it'll probably be something along the lines of Falcon or something.

If they gut this character one patch into his lifespan I'll be incredibly upset. Link me so I can read it and discern if he's actually going to do anything massive.

http://www.sourcegaming.info/2015/12/23/496/
"Wielding his massive Buster Sword with ease in one hand, he has speed, reach, and power. If left unadjusted, he’d definitely be overpowered."
RIP.

 

[TTTTTsd]

http://www.sourcegaming.info/2015/12/23/496/
"Wielding his massive Buster Sword with ease in one hand, he has speed, reach, and power. If left unadjusted, he’d definitely be overpowered."
RIP.

I'm looking at that in the context of the article and

I'm almost 100% positive he means "If we didn't design him the way we did he'd be incredibly overpowered." They're talking about his core design and how he is in the actual games, where he swings the damn Buster Sword around like cardboard with how big it is. Nothing in that quote screams "game balance" to me at all outside of the fact that he's talking about how Cloud is in the source material and why he's not accurate to it here in terms of the sword's size and his recovery + limit mechanic. Note the "IF LEFT UNADJUSTED" bit.

Like, this entire article is talking about adapting characters from the source material. Dunno where any pulled anything about game balance outside of the basic level of "well this is how we brought him in."

 

[Zelder]

I'd like to think that this wouldn't happen but I can always idealize the fact that it'll probably be something along the lines of Falcon or something.

If they gut this character one patch into his lifespan I'll be incredibly upset. Link me so I can read it and discern if he's actually going to do anything massive.

Has anyone really been "gutted" by a patch, bar Luigi (who got everything he deserved)? Diddy got nerfed, yeah, but he certainly didn't get destroyed.

 

[-RedX-]

I'm looking at that in the context of the article and

I'm almost 100% positive he means "If we didn't design him the way we did he'd be incredibly overpowered." They're talking about his core design and how he is in the actual games, where he swings the damn Buster Sword around like cardboard with how big it is. Nothing in that quote screams "game balance" to me at all outside of the fact that he's talking about how Cloud is in the source material and why he's not accurate to it here in terms of the sword's size and his recovery + limit mechanic

You're actually right about that, just re-read it a few times myself.
It's essentially why Ike isn't shooting beams in Smash.
/saltyIkefan

 

[adom4]

Has anyone really been "gutted" by a patch, bar Luigi (who got everything he deserved)? Diddy got nerfed, yeah, but he certainly didn't get destroyed.

Greninja kinda got gutted considering how good he was in the beggining, even then he was never really a bad character even after the nerfs he got.

 

[Mario766]

You're actually right about that, just re-read it a few times myself.
It's essentially why Ike isn't shooting beams in Smash.
/saltyIkefan

or why Ike isn't a lightning bruiser who, like Cloud, easily wields a great sword meant for 2 hands with only one hand.

/2ndsaltyIkefan

Rising Aerials are interesting. Some characters can use them, some can't. OoS N-Airs from Mario/Luigi/Yoshi are rising. Ike can do RAR Rising B-Air for a punish option on medium/tall characters. Some characters really don't do rising aerials though.

 

[Rizen]

@ last page, Link has very good offstage intercepting, probably high-tier for that category. Nair attacks frame 7-31 and covers Link's legs and lower body. Link's sword hitbubbles are much wider than the sword animation; Dair has surprising disjoint below and in front of Link frames 14-64, 50 frames of attack that beat most upBs except ones with great disjoints. These are great for catching the ledge-snap vulnerability. Fair cuts 2 time and is almost as strong as TL's and starts the same frame. Link can also angle his boomerang, shoot arrows and throw a bomb down>Dair spike or footstool. His upB hits around him for safety when going back to the ledge.

Cloud has good kill options, limit isn't that hard to frequently have and even without it Cloud has decent options like Uair.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Pretty sure Palu and Ganon would decimate almost everyone if the canon was followed.

And Bayonetta..I mean...she is undoubtedly the most powerful being in her universe. The woman traded blows with the god of her universe for crying out loud.

 

[Mario766]

Pretty sure Palu and Ganon would decimate almost everyone if the canon was followed.

And Bayonetta..I mean...she is undoubtedly the most powerful being in her universe. The woman traded blows with the god of her universe for crying out loud.

A lot of characters from the Smash universe would fit that category.

 

[Djmarcus44]

The way I see it, there's three "regions" of edgeguarding: deep offstage, near offstage and onstage (ledge traps, sniping poor snaps, projectile harassment etc.)

Spoiler: Characters proficient at deep offstage:

,,,,,, (at least vertically), (with jump),

Spoiler: Characters proficient at near offstage (there's a lot):

,,,,,,/, ,,,, , , , ,

Spoiler: Characters (notably) proficient at onstage:

, , , , , , , ,

Obviously there's some overlap, characters who can go deep can usually edgeguard near the stage too, and it's not uncommon for those good at near offstage edgeguarding to have strong options for punishing getups as well.

I agree with what you are saying except I would add Gunner to the list of characters that are proficient onstage. Gunner's flame pillar covers the entire ledge for at least 35 frames (Gunner can act out of the move before the flame pillar disappears). Even if you miss the ledge, it will cover a normal getup and give you enough time to cover everything else. Simply spamming flame pillar at the ledge gives plenty of free damage, and it can take the stock of an opponent with bad horizontal recovery. Also, charge blast is great for covering options since it comes out very quickly when it is shot in the middle of charging. When spaced properly, it can cover every option.

 

[S_B]

And Bayonetta..I mean...she is undoubtedly the most powerful being in her universe. The woman traded blows with the god of her universe for crying out loud.

Spoilers, bro...

Some of us haven't got around to picking up the games yet.

 

[Vipermoon]

You're actually right about that, just re-read it a few times myself.
It's essentially why Ike isn't shooting beams in Smash.
/saltyIkefan

Or why the Falchion doesn't heal Marth/Lucina.

 

[S_B]

so like...yall still think dev team is making adjustments based on competitiveness?

(Just now saw this in past pages)

If you mean Brawl, hell no. Sakurai even said in an interview that his method for balancing Brawl was forcing hobos his team had abducted to fight to the death while wearing costumes of the various characters and balancing the game around the results (that MK hobo just really wanted to live...).

But for SSB4, yes, actually.

Aside from the various "hoo-haas" he's given to competitive players that are beyond the reach of casual players, the change to how healing/absorption works in doubles pretty much HAD to be in response to the shenanigans seen in doubles tournaments.

You could argue that hoo-haas get used in FG (as they do), but the healing/absorption issues are only ever seen in actual tournaments as team attack is off in FG's 2v2 mode.

Really, it's the kind of thing most (myself included) never expected Sakurai to take notice of, and yet he fixed it.

So that does leave us scratching our heads over some of his balancing (or LACK of balancing) for a number of characters. He's clearly looking at the tournament scene in Japan as he attends tournaments, and if that Japanese tier list is actually how Japan feels about the roster, it's just confusing as to why top tiers haven't been toned down and why bottom tiers haven't been brought up...

 

[HeavyLobster]

(Just now saw this in past pages)

If you mean Brawl, hell no. Sakurai even said in an interview that his method for balancing Brawl was forcing hobos his team had abducted to fight to the death while wearing costumes of the various characters and balancing the game around the results (that MK hobo just really wanted to live...).

But for SSB4, yes, actually.

Aside from the various "hoo-haas" he's given to competitive players that are beyond the reach of casual players, the change to how healing/absorption works in doubles pretty much HAD to be in response to the shenanigans seen in doubles tournaments.

You could argue that hoo-haas get used in FG (as they do), but the healing/absorption issues are only ever seen in actual tournaments as team attack is off in FG's 2v2 mode.

Really, it's the kind of thing most (myself included) never expected Sakurai to take notice of, and yet he fixed it.

So that does leave us scratching our heads over some of his balancing (or LACK of balancing) for a number of characters. He's clearly looking at the tournament scene in Japan as he attends tournaments, and if that Japanese tier list is actually how Japan feels about the roster, it's just confusing as to why top tiers haven't been toned down and why bottom tiers haven't been brought up...

Most bottom tiers actually have been buffed, and a few of the most notorious top tiers have gotten nerfed. There have been a few odd decisions here and there, but the game's balance has fairly consistently improved over time. Puff and Dedede are anomalies as far as bad characters go.

 

[DunnoBro]

I can actually see cloud nerfs, I'll avoid discussing my personal issues with the character but there's a reason everyone and their grandma is picking that character up. (And it isn't because they haven't gotten their pretty swordboy fix yet)

 

[TTTTTsd]

I can actually see cloud nerfs, I'll avoid discussing my personal issues with the character but there's a reason everyone and their grandma is picking that character up. (And it isn't because they haven't gotten their pretty swordboy fix yet)

I mean it's entirely possible but I don't think that article has anything to do with it. But I really don't think it'll happen regardless. It took em two patches to even touch Diddy Kong and Cloud has (so far) fit all of their design archetypes they have demonstrated interest in him fitting.

I don't see it being very likely, myself. I mean we're all entitled to opinions but, yeah. Nothing about him seems to go beyond what they intended IMO, whether or not people like it is a totally different story though. Also considering how long it took for Luigi to get changes despite the much more rampant outcry for his nerfs in particular doesn't really help me believe Cloud's getting changed =P.

Time will tell, as will Genesis.

 

[Cereal Bawks]

Pretty sure Palu and Ganon would decimate almost everyone if the canon was followed.

I wouldn't say that. There's a good number of god-killers in the roster.

Also, I can't really see Cloud getting any nerfs. He doesn't really have any stupid or unfair moves, does he? There isn't really anything that sticks out to me.

 

[TTTTTsd]

I also don't EXACTLY think talking about nerfs and/or buffs even is that productive or good of an idea about two weeks in. I think the character is damn good yeah but I don't think we've hit a point where we could feasibly like, talk about that **** yet. That being said.....

Cloud/Ryu sounds incredibly effective in tournament. (I also think part of the reason people are picking him up is cause he's new and actually looks incredibly good when played right, Ryu took a while to catch on but if his strengths were as obvious early on I imagine there would've been an influx)

 

[Vipermoon]

I mean it's entirely possible but I don't think that article has anything to do with it. But I really don't think it'll happen regardless. It took em two patches to even touch Diddy Kong and Cloud has (so far) fit all of their design archetypes they have demonstrated interest in him fitting.

I don't see it being very likely, myself. I mean we're all entitled to opinions but, yeah. Nothing about him seems to go beyond what they intended IMO, whether or not people like it is a totally different story though. Also considering how long it took for Luigi to get changes despite the much more rampant outcry for his nerfs in particular doesn't really help me believe Cloud's getting changed =P.

Time will tell, as will Genesis.

Cloud is extremely stupid. His combination of start-up/end lag, autocancels, hitboxes, mobility, damage output, and everything he does stomps on the other swordies to the point where you should just switch to Cloud. He's been out for a few weeks for crying out loud! Only Ike can currently compete but only because he has a grab game and a year of development.

So if they are happy with Cloud, then they should provide Shulk, Marth, Lucina, Roy, Corrin, Mii Sword, and even Ike with sufficient tools so they aren't overshadowed like this. Because this is just unhealthy.

This is honestly all I want to say about Cloud in here. Like DunnoBro, I have been reluctant to discuss him. Check out my signature for more info. It isn't a post of mine, but it's well written and mentions Cloud and how he affects things.

 

[C0rvus]

I do think Cloud is strong, and there were a LOT of Clouds at my local last night. That said, none of them blew my mind or made me think Cloud warrants nerfs. I will say that the character has a bunch of questionable tools (good and bad ones), and if you nerf him he might just end up being bad.

It's still too soon to call it, and maybe by Genesis we can see what the character has to offer more clearly.

 

[Blobface]

Cloud's limit mechanic combined with his really bad recovery brings his matches down to a very small amount of exchanges for both parties. I'm not a fan of his design, but I wouldn't say it's overpowered. Even if winning/losing requires an overly small amount of exchanges, he still needs to actually win those exchanges.

 

[TTTTTsd]

Cloud is extremely stupid. His combination of start-up/end lag, autocancels, hitboxes, mobility, damage output, and everything he does stomps on the other swordies to the point where you should just switch to Cloud. He's been out for a few weeks for crying out loud! Only Ike can currently compete but only because he has a grab game and a year of development.

So if they are happy with Cloud, then they should provide Shulk, Marth, Lucina, Roy, Corrin, Mii Sword, and even Ike with sufficient tools so they aren't overshadowed like this. Because this is just unhealthy.

This is honestly all I want to say about Cloud in here. Like DunnoBro, I have been reluctant to discuss him. Check out my signature for more info. It isn't a post of mine, but it's well written and mentions Cloud and how he affects things.

I'm gonna be that guy and say that this seems like mostly a personal problem. I understand the frustration but I really still can't foresee the character getting changes just based on Smash logic and how they've handled characters on a per-patch basis from the trends I've seen.

I won't disagree he's very clearly one of the best Sword characters in the game though, I can't argue with that logic!

I also expect there to be more well-developed counterplay in the future and I think stuff like this warrants actual time and not just, as you said, two weeks.

ALSO JUST GONNA PUT THIS HERE BUT WOW opinions sure have changed about this character. I'll just say I knew he was damn good when I started playing him =3.

 

[san.]

I feel that the other sword characters need better frame data and autocancels on similar-looking animations (ex. swordfighter-like nairs and uairs being in the ~6-7 range instead of the 8-12 range). Ike can get by because of the ridiculous power he has, even though IMO the damage on some of his attacks are still lackluster.

Only thing I don't like about Cloud's design is uair's autocancel being 1 frame after the hitbox ends, instead of the usual 7-10 area.

 

[TTTTTsd]

I feel that the other sword characters need better frame data and autocancels on similar-looking animations (ex. swordfighter-like nairs and uairs being in the ~6-7 range instead of the 8-12 range). Ike can get by because of the ridiculous power he has, even though IMO the damage on some of his attacks are still lackluster.

Only thing I don't like about Cloud's design is uair's autocancel being 1 frame after the hitbox ends, instead of the usual 7-10 area.

I'm inclined to agree with this line of thought. Perhaps the other sword characters getting a little bit better would be a lot more productive than making the other one fall in line with what is commonly perceived as underwhelming/unrewarding (barring Ike, he's still solid).

Oh also, I was asked about what characters got gutted early on for zero good reason? How about King Dedede, nobody talks about that or seems to remember that, but he used to have ways to kill off of grabs. Guess what happened there? Then people found out even more counterplay and he's in the spot he's in right now. I personally think he def got gutted.

 

[S_B]

Most bottom tiers actually have been buffed, and a few of the most notorious top tiers have gotten nerfed. There have been a few odd decisions here and there, but the game's balance has fairly consistently improved over time. Puff and Dedede are anomalies as far as bad characters go.

Yeah, overall it HAS been very good, which makes the inconsistencies stand out all the more, really (especially poor DH).

I don't want to downplay what Sakurai has done here. I feel like they've done a pretty darn good job overall. There are only two cases of super polarizing characters (Sheik and ZSS, with Rosa to a lesser extent) and I think the rest of the tiers are easily closer to each other than any tiers have ever been in a past SSB game.

Just hoping the top tier gets toned down a bit before the update cycle ends for good...

 

[YoshiYoshi]

Excuse my inexperience, but isn't Cloud's landing lag actually pretty bad? Outside of full-hop aerials, he seems to have a lot of punishable lag on everything. Lag on jab, dash, tilts, specials, extremely punishable smashes, none his air attacks short of full-hop d-air are particularly safe on shield. Not only can you punish him on the ground, but after making contact on shield with his disjoints he sometimes has to wait a few more frames to even reach the ground and his landing lag state.

He doesn't seem to have a lot of shield push on his moves like some other swordsmen. F-smash can be imperfect shielded and punished with F-smash. It can even be spot dodged completely.

I don't think he's too terrifying if you can force him to approach. His projectile isn't the best in the world. Has more lag than Samus charge shot release. Can be SHAD punished if he goes too aggressive, much like the rest of his move-set.

His f-air spike and limit shenanigans seems to be very good for him, but without them I don't see how he is any better than Ike.

 

[ILOVESMASH]

One thing thats absolutely BS about cloud is the way limit break is designed. Its probably the easiest power meter in the game to charge since it can be charged manually or be charged by attacking or being attacked. The net benefits of it are absolutely ridiculous as well compared to other power meters. With a charged limit break, cloud not only gets a huge boost in mobility, but a ridiculous buff to his specials, some of which become quite unfair honestly. Seriously, Cloud with his limit break fully charged gets the option to use:

• A move that can kill you at 40% (even earlier with rage)
• A move that takes 1 / 3 of your stock and can kill you around 100%
• A projectile that covers a ludicrous amount of space and can put some characters in a really bad position when recovering
• A huge buff to his recovery, giving it more range, and invincibility.

The worst part is that these buffs don't wear off if you hit cloud or stall for long enough. Cloud actually has to use the special for the power meter buffs to go away. I really hope limit break is nerfed in the future so that cloud only has a limited amount of time to use the LB buffs.

 

[Sonicninja115]

Excuse my inexperience, but isn't Cloud's landing lag actually pretty bad? Outside of full-hop aerials, he seems to have a lot of punishable lag on everything. Lag on jab, dash, tilts, specials, extremely punishable smashes, none his air attacks short of full-hop d-air are particularly safe on shield. Not only can you punish him on the ground, but after making contact on shield with his disjoints he sometimes has to wait a few more frames to even reach the ground and his landing lag state.

He doesn't seem to have a lot of shield push on his moves like some other swordsmen. F-smash can be imperfect shielded and punished with F-smash. It can even be spot dodged completely.

I don't think he's too terrifying if you can force him to approach. His projectile isn't the best in the world. Has more lag than Samus charge shot release. Can be SHAD punished if he goes too aggressive, much like the rest of his move-set.

His f-air spike and limit shenanigans seems to be very good for him, but without them I don't see how he is any better than Ike.

He has moderate lag, and heavy lag on Fair, but other then that he has a ton of really good auto cancel windows. SH Nair autocancels, as well as FH Dair and Uair. I don't know about Bair.

 

[Teshie U]

^Don't forget limit up B actually makes for a great OoS options suddenly as well.