Official Character Competitive Impressions - Tourneys, Tiers, Theories, Tactics

[NachoOfCheese]

Competitive Smash characters outside of Smash Impressions thread confirmed

 

[Fatmanonice]

It is down there but Little Mac's is just another class of hilariously bad. Definitely bottom ten in my opinion (in no particular order):

Low tier:

/(relies heavily on jump/speed Monado art)(relies heavily on limit break)

*insert Goofy holler here* tier:

 

[ARGHETH]

It is down there but Little Mac's is just another class of hilariously bad. Definitely bottom ten in my opinion (in no particular order):

Low tier:

/(relies on jump/speed Monado art)(relies on limit break)

*insert Goofy holler here* tier:

Interesting. Most people would put Robin right around here...

 

[ParanoidDrone]

Interesting. Most people would put Robin right around here...

If you ask me, Robin's recovery has respectable distance. Not on the level of Villager, Pit, or Rosalina, obviously, but it's good enough for most situations. Its main flaw is a lack of hitboxes above him for protection.

 

[Fatmanonice]

I'd argue that Robin has the option of recovering high if all else fails and, like Olimar and Villager, can use mix ups to land on the stage if the situation calls for it. I'd argue that this option doesn't work for Charizard or Duck Hunt though because flame blitz has a ton of ending lag if done in the air and Duck Hunt, unlike Villager and Olimar, doesn't have the aerial mobility with its recovery to fake out opponents and land on the stage or hit the ledge from above.

 

[wedl!!]

Mario has better recovery than Robin tbh. Elwind is kinda bad (except for the control you get, you're still pretty vulnerable however).

At least SJP is invincible+has hitboxes. The fact that it also hits above the ledge and can stagespike is also a huge boon. Its main weakness is that Mario is forced to always recover low, as opposed to its distance. He has magnet hands for that.

 

[Mr. Johan]

Elwind has more distance than SJP statistically, but Mario's "top 6 why" air mobility with the lol-invinci UpB renders it moot.



RE: Cloud: I'd sooner lower Cloud's damage output on his aerials before anything else, Limit Break or otherwise.

Why his not-Nair aerials do 13% with that range and speed and mobility boggles my mind.

 

[S_B]

I dunno. Charizard's fly has SA on it and Flare Blitz is a nice option for recovering high if they're trying to go low to spike you.

The landing lag on FB isn't THAT bad if drop down after it finishes.

 

[TriTails]

@FG Clouds

Wouldn't say they're murdering FG. I usually am able to beat them as long as my character is named 'Captain Falcon'.

And my knowledge of him? I just know yesterday his D-air can spike. Really not knowledgeable of him.

 

[LancerStaff]

Here I am thinking Cloud is fine in the grand scheme of things... IMO if they did nerf something on Cloud it'd be how fast limit charges when taking damage. Once the honeymoon period is over and we have a good idea who trounces him I don't think he'll be super relevant.

The more I see of him though, the less depth I think he has. He's just... Braindead. Just play keepaway, charge limit, then get a read/punish and go back to step one. Obviously not as dominant as prepatch Diddy and the like, but it seems he gets a lot of success for very little interaction. For that reason alone I could see him getting nerfed pretty bad.

 

[Browny]

I want to see more people shield camp vs Cloud.

And I mean really.. really camp him. At high %'s he cant kill you in shield, its that simple except unlike fox, he cant whittle down your shield and get a poke with an approach to guarantee a kill.

Cloud mains I play against lament the fact that I refuse to fight them once I'm at kill %s and living to 120%+ each stock (as Mewtwo mind you) isn't uncommon.

I still think people are letting Cloud players get away with wayyyyy too much freedom. Going for dsmashes on the ledge to clip his upb instead of dairing the ledge is the biggest culprit with repeatedly challenging and losing to his uair the second one.

 

[C0rvus]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ERWjvGarIS8

NAKAT vs Dabuz matches. Ness vs Rosa. I think these illustrate the strong tools both characters have in the MU. Ness can mess Rosa up for recovering almost as hard. Clearly Rosa has the advantage, but it can quickly end in either character's favor.

 

[|RK|]

I want to see more people shield camp vs Cloud.

And I mean really.. really camp him. At high %'s he cant kill you in shield, its that simple except unlike fox, he cant whittle down your shield and get a poke with an approach to guarantee a kill.

Cloud mains I play against lament the fact that I refuse to fight them once I'm at kill %s and living to 120%+ each stock (as Mewtwo mind you) isn't uncommon.

I still think people are letting Cloud players get away with wayyyyy too much freedom. Going for dsmashes on the ledge to clip his upb instead of dairing the ledge is the biggest culprit with repeatedly challenging and losing to his uair the second one.

As a Kirby main, I can't do much else, lol. Shielding against Cloud is so good.

 

[TurboLink]

LOL. Just make it to where he can only fill the gauge by successfully damaging someone or charging the limit gauge. This'll give Cloud players more incentive to actually fight people.

 

[PK Gaming]

Robin's recovery is absolutely, absolute trash and definitely worse than Mario's.

Mario's is actually a lot better than people give credit due to that ridiculous air speed and his Up B's solid hitbox.

 

[Pazx]

Ness vs Rosa is a topic that should probably be put to rest for awhile. Yes, Ness can seriously mess with Rosa's recovery, and she dies super early to back throw and up air. It's still an awful matchup, and it would still be around 65-35 without the GP gimps. Rosa doesn't even need GP to gimp Ness, and Ness doesn't have particularly good tools for dealing with Luma while conversely Rosalina has pretty good tools for avoiding grabs. Ness loses neutral, dies if Rosalina makes a single read after Ness double jumps (which all top Nesses do too much, just in the first 30 seconds of that video Nakat burns it like crazy) and his saving grace against floaty characters that is his uair + up b juggling ability is significantly reduced. Also important to remember that Rosalina mauls characters with poor airspeed and no good escape options, if Ness is above Rosa his options are airdodge into a REALLY POWERFUL aerial or use his double jump, so the best thing for the Rosalina player to do in most situations is just wait for the airdodge and punish.

 

[Fatmanonice]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ERWjvGarIS8

NAKAT vs Dabuz matches. Ness vs Rosa. I think these illustrate the strong tools both characters have in the MU. Ness can mess Rosa up for recovering almost as hard. Clearly Rosa has the advantage, but it can quickly end in either character's favor.

Good to see some Rosa vs Ness matches that aren't inherently depressing but it could also be argued that nothing was at stake and it was only practice so dabuz didn't have the incentive to go into full blown bundle of sticks mode .

 

[Blobface]

It is down there but Little Mac's is just another class of hilariously bad. Definitely bottom ten in my opinion (in no particular order):

Low tier:

/(relies heavily on jump/speed Monado art)(relies heavily on limit break)

*insert Goofy holler here* tier:

Moved some stuff around.

Ganondorf's recovery is significantly better than all the characters below, as his aerials provide excellent protection, his Up-B actually has a decent disjoint, and he has the threat of Ganoncide to back him up. Captain Falcon has much better airspeed, but he offers almost no threat when recovering.

Zard has a super armor recovery and Flare Blitz is a pain to challenge.

Dr Mario simply can't be that much worse than Mario IMO.

 

[Rizen]

I think this would make very specific matchups absolutely stupid and that also completely defeats Limit building by taking damage. It also convolutes the formula significantly and is probably the least intuitive way to go about doing this. It would also remove any reward from charging Limit and make the mechanic incredibly useless even for recovery. It would even make the recovery buff super negligible, "Limit boosts my recovery but now I can't take damage" like...wat?

If it has to be done there are probably other ways but I'm keeping my mouth shut until we see a big major and see exactly what happens. Boy have opinions changed fast in here, wtf even happened? I wasn't even gone long. All I'm going to say is nerfing a two week old character or even thinking about it so early is exactly why NRS fighting games have what the FGC calls "patch fever" or "excessive patching."

Talking about Limit Cloud being broken is weird because while it's true that all of his specials become annoyingly strong, he only gets one shot at any of them before losing Limit -- and being hit out of startup counts! On top of that, if Cloud wants to save his limit for any reason, then he's locked himself out of using any of his specials. That means no projectile, no running away to stall and charge Limit (because Limit is already charged and replaced with Finishing Touch), and if he needs to recover then he's forced to burn Limit or die anyway.

The problem with Limit is it encourages running away with Cloud's great mobility. I think you guys are downplaying how easy limit is to get. If Cloud had worse mobility I'd agree. Limit means at any point after he gets it, Cloud has a large transcendent projectile, powerful OoS upB, a forward B that can act like a smash attack in the air, and finishing touch hitting all around him- all with good-great KO potential. That's what needs to be balanced.

Also Cloud is not a one trick wonder. Even with no Limit he's at least mid tier. Great mobility, sword reach, frame 4 GTFO jab, power, fantastic Uair, one of the best zoning projectiles in the game- He's a good character. Add a limit gauge to that and he has storable 60% KO options. He's already hard to chase down with his great range and zoning.

Making limit be knocked away would simply mean he can't hold it forever. Cloud can always get a new one with a simple launch or moving platform (looking at you SV).

 

[Ulevo]

Why are we talking about balancing Cloud.

 

[Rizen]

Why are we talking about balancing Cloud.

I don't know. It seems to be all the rage these days *shrugs*

 

[Jaguar360]

Dr Mario simply can't be that much worse than Mario IMO.

Doc's air speed is much lower, his Super Jump Punch doesn't go as high and his Super Sheet doesn't stall his momentum like Mario's Cape does (though Doc Tornado makes up for this). Doc's recovery is noticeably worse than Mario's, though I agree that he didn't belong with the other 4 at the bottom. I think that Mario shouldn't have been on the original list of bottom 10 recoveries at all because Super Jump Punch is so reliable at snapping to the ledge and the air speed makes his recovery more solid than it would seem initially.

 

[Browny]

Rizen
Clouds upb oos is probably the worst upb oos in the game that is actually used as a counter attack.

Its got low launching power, very laggy on whiff and even punishable on hit, you can airdodge the second strike as hes coming down. Against someone with good reaction times your best bet is to not bring them down and just go for the upwards hit, but that makes it very weak compared to all others like Marios/zss/bowser/marth/roy/ryu/zelda.

 

[Fatmanonice]

Why are we talking about balancing Cloud.

Because Cloud is the new Luigi who was the new Yoshi who was the new Duck Hunt who was the new Greninja who was the new Little Mac who was the new Bowser aka a character that people perceive as a huge threat despite the fact that there's not really that many people wrecking shop with him.

 

[Ffamran]

Fun fact of the day: did you know that all pummels have 1 active frame!? Yeah, it makes sense for pummels to be short and restricted to the victim - I think -, but I wonder what would happen if there were some characters like say, Mewtwo and Zelda, had pummels that could hit other players. Imagining weird FFA and doubles shenanigans where Mewtwo could pummel someone, a dark wave appears behind them, and it hits someone else, causes hit stun, and Ryu leaps in to confirm a Shoryuken.

On another note, Bowser's Flying Slam only has 1 active frame... Er... Okay? Maybe it should have 2? I mean, it's a command grab that basically executes a Charizard, Kirby, and Meta Knight's U-throw. It's weird noticing it... Also, Cloud's Side Smash is like the Pits where it only has 1 active frame per hit, but it doesn't really matter much since it'll connect fairly quickly, so it's more like a 3 active frame hit.

 

[SaltyKracka]

Ganondorf's recovery is significantly better than all the characters below, as his aerials provide excellent protection, his Up-B actually has a decent disjoint, and he has the threat of Ganoncide to back him up. Captain Falcon has much better airspeed, but he offers almost no threat when recovering.

What are you smoking and how can I get some? Captain Falcon has far better air speed and an actual double jump, not to mention a default Up-B that isn't a total joke...and somehow he has a worse recovery than Ganondorf?

Ganoncide's a nice gimmick at the ledge and all, but it's not that nice.

On the subject of nerfing Cloud, the obvious place to hit would be his Limit Charge camp game. Add startup, add uninterruptible endlag, and you've immediately brought him back in line.

 

[TTTTTsd]

Rizen
Clouds upb oos is probably the worst upb oos in the game that is actually used as a counter attack.

Its got low launching power, very laggy on whiff and even punishable on hit, you can airdodge the second strike as hes coming down. Against someone with good reaction times your best bet is to not bring them down and just go for the upwards hit, but that makes it very weak compared to all others like Marios/zss/bowser/marth/roy/ryu/zelda.

The only good versions are Limit Break or doing it under the middle platform of Battlefield as if you do it under the middle platform he'll land, esp. good if you don't press B the second time. That's it though.

 

[Ulevo]

Fun fact of the day: did you know that all pummels have 1 active frame!? Yeah, it makes sense for pummels to be short and restricted to the victim - I think -, but I wonder what would happen if there were some characters like say, Mewtwo and Zelda, had pummels that could hit other players. Imagining weird FFA and doubles shenanigans where Mewtwo could pummel someone, a dark wave appears behind them, and it hits someone else, causes hit stun, and Ryu leaps in to confirm a Shoryuken.

On another note, Bowser's Flying Slam only has 1 active frame... Er... Okay? Maybe it should have 2? I mean, it's a command grab that basically executes a Charizard, Kirby, and Meta Knight's U-throw. It's weird noticing it... Also, Cloud's Side Smash is like the Pits where it only has 1 active frame per hit, but it doesn't really matter much since it'll connect fairly quickly, so it's more like a 3 active frame hit.

Meta Knight's pummel can hit other characters. I am sure this is not a unique trait.

 

[Rizen]

Rizen
Clouds upb oos is probably the worst upb oos in the game that is actually used as a counter attack.

Its got low launching power, very laggy on whiff and even punishable on hit, you can airdodge the second strike as hes coming down. Against someone with good reaction times your best bet is to not bring them down and just go for the upwards hit, but that makes it very weak compared to all others like Marios/zss/bowser/marth/roy/ryu/zelda.

I said limit break upB.

 

[Blobface]

What are you smoking and how can I get some? Captain Falcon has far better air speed and an actual double jump, not to mention a default Up-B that isn't a total joke...and somehow he has a worse recovery than Ganondorf?

Ganoncide's a nice gimmick at the ledge and all, but it's not that nice.

On the subject of nerfing Cloud, the obvious place to hit would be his Limit Charge camp game. Add startup, add uninterruptible endlag, and you've immediately brought him back in line.

CF's Up-B does more damage (for some reason), but the hitbox is primarily in front of him rather than above, where it is on Ganondorf.

 

[Ffamran]

Meta Knight's pummel can hit other characters. I am sure this is not a unique trait.

I think all pummels can hit other people, but maybe it's cause Meta Knight's wings are large hitboxes? It would be weird to try and hit other people with Ike's pummel which is a small headbutt or Peach's pummel which is her stepping on their toes. You'd have to sandwich someone else to pummel... What I'm wondering is a pummel which more range or something like Pikachu turns you a collateral hitbox when he pummels you. I mean, you're getting electrified, so... Y'know, this might be time for Ganondorf to have a pummel where he engulfs you in fire. Also, animation change where he holds you up like Flame Choke... Anyway...

On the subject of Cloud's Climhazzard not ledge sweet-spotting well... Anyone have ideas why it's like this other than "Cloud needs a weakness"? You have other characters that also include Little Mac with very predictable, linear, and exploitable recoveries, but they can all sweet-spot the ledge. Captain Falcon, Ganondorf, Ike if forced to use Aether, Lucina, Luigi if forced to use Luigi Missile, Marth, Rosalina, Roy, Shulk, and more have what are considered exploitable or predictable recoveries. So, why add more insult to injury by making it so he can't ledge sweet-spot? Part of me feels like if Cloud could ledge sweet-spot more easily with Climhazzard, he'd still have a bad recovery especially since it's purely vertical like Ike and Little Mac's, but unlike theirs, Cloud's doesn't have a disjoint, Ike throwing Ragnell, or a lingering hitbox like Little Mac's. Right now, it's almost... unfair that he cannot ledge sweet-spot like the rest of the cast.

Oh, but he has Limit Break to fix that. Yeah, umm... Still not a good enough reason since he "naturally" cannot (easily) sweet-spot the ledge - words are hard to choose from. Cloud needs help to sweet-spot the ledge. I mean, imagine if Shulk needed to be in Jump Art to sweet-spot with Air Slash. You can only stay in Jump for so long and sometimes, it's not going to happen. FFA, singles, doubles, triples, whatever, it's just not fair in my opinion for one character to not be able to sweet-spot the ledge. If it was just one recovery move like say Cloud had his Dissidia Cross Slash that moved him forward and sweet-spotted the ledge while Climhazzard didn't, then that might be a bit better, but Cloud doesn't have that. He only has Climhazzard like how Roy and Shulk only have Blazer and Air Slash. Your air speed, air mobility, jump height, recovery move distane, whatever can be as good as it wants, but in a game where every character save for Cloud can naturally sweet-spot the ledge, it really stands out when you can't. Imagine if Roy couldn't sweet-spot with Blazer. Oh look, Roy's recovery is even more of a joke for the rest of the Counter Fire Emblem characters. For example, Ike didn't really need to exert himself to edgeguard Roy if Roy's forced to go low and when Ike's right next to the ledge ready for a Counter drop. Now? Ike could charge a Side Smash and kill him with the sour-spot for ***** and giggles. Hell, he could play punching bag with Roy if Roy decides to go a bit higher and... oh look, he can't sweet-spot, so he lingers in the air for a bit. PUNCHING TIME!

If there's one buff for the so-called OP, overtuned, weeks-old high tier, and pathetic off-stage Cloud, it would be to make his Climhazzard sweet-spot the ledge regardless unless you overshoot above the ledge. He'd still be pathetic off-stage when his jump's low, he commits hard with aerials, and Climhazzard's still not a flexible recovery move compared to even Aether.

Edit: Forgot about this one: what if no character could sweet-spot the ledge?

 

[HeavyLobster]

What are you smoking and how can I get some? Captain Falcon has far better air speed and an actual double jump, not to mention a default Up-B that isn't a total joke...and somehow he has a worse recovery than Ganondorf?

Ganoncide's a nice gimmick at the ledge and all, but it's not that nice.

On the subject of nerfing Cloud, the obvious place to hit would be his Limit Charge camp game. Add startup, add uninterruptible endlag, and you've immediately brought him back in line.

Surprisingly I tend to agree that Ganondorf's recovery is slightly better, except perhaps on stages where Falcon's wall jump comes into play. Falcon has better recovery distance, but Ganon's scarier to edgeguard, at least as long as he has his double jump. Without it, he's toast, but of course so is Falcon.

 

[NachoOfCheese]

Friendly reminder that Cloud has one of, if not, the absolute worst grab game in the cast. Dude has a sub par grab, no kill throws, and no throw followups past like 10%. Does this make him bad? Probably not. But give it time. The dude hasn't been out that long.

 

[C0rvus]

I think all pummels can hit other people, but maybe it's cause Meta Knight's wings are large hitboxes? It would be weird to try and hit other people with Ike's pummel which is a small headbutt or Peach's pummel which is her stepping on their toes. You'd have to sandwich someone else to pummel... What I'm wondering is a pummel which more range or something like Pikachu turns you a collateral hitbox when he pummels you. I mean, you're getting electrified, so... Y'know, this might be time for Ganondorf to have a pummel where he engulfs you in fire. Also, animation change where he holds you up like Flame Choke... Anyway...

On the subject of Cloud's Climhazzard not ledge sweet-spotting well... Anyone have ideas why it's like this other than "Cloud needs a weakness"? You have other characters that also include Little Mac with very predictable, linear, and exploitable recoveries, but they can all sweet-spot the ledge. Captain Falcon, Ganondorf, Ike if forced to use Aether, Lucina, Luigi if forced to use Luigi Missile, Marth, Rosalina, Roy, Shulk, and more have what are considered exploitable or predictable recoveries. So, why add more insult to injury by making it so he can't ledge sweet-spot? Part of me feels like if Cloud could ledge sweet-spot more easily with Climhazzard, he'd still have a bad recovery especially since it's purely vertical like Ike and Little Mac's, but unlike theirs, Cloud's doesn't have a disjoint, Ike throwing Ragnell, or a lingering hitbox like Little Mac's. Right now, it's almost... unfair that he cannot ledge sweet-spot like the rest of the cast.

Oh, but he has Limit Break to fix that. Yeah, umm... Still not a good enough reason since he "naturally" cannot (easily) sweet-spot the ledge - words are hard to choose from. Cloud needs help to sweet-spot the ledge. I mean, imagine if Shulk needed to be in Jump Art to sweet-spot with Air Slash. You can only stay in Jump for so long and sometimes, it's not going to happen. FFA, singles, doubles, triples, whatever, it's just not fair in my opinion for one character to not be able to sweet-spot the ledge. If it was just one recovery move like say Cloud had his Dissidia Cross Slash that moved him forward and sweet-spotted the ledge while Climhazzard didn't, then that might be a bit better, but Cloud doesn't have that. He only has Climhazzard like how Roy and Shulk only have Blazer and Air Slash. Your air speed, air mobility, jump height, recovery move distane, whatever can be as good as it wants, but in a game where every character save for Cloud can naturally sweet-spot the ledge, it really stands out when you can't. Imagine if Roy couldn't sweet-spot with Blazer. Oh look, Roy's recovery is even more of a joke for the rest of the Counter Fire Emblem characters. For example, Ike didn't really need to exert himself to edgeguard Roy if Roy's forced to go low and when Ike's right next to the ledge ready for a Counter drop. Now? Ike could charge a Side Smash and kill him with the sour-spot for ***** and giggles. Hell, he could play punching bag with Roy if Roy decides to go a bit higher and... oh look, he can't sweet-spot, so he lingers in the air for a bit. PUNCHING TIME!

If there's one buff for the so-called OP, overtuned, weeks-old high tier, and pathetic off-stage Cloud, it would be to make his Climhazzard sweet-spot the ledge regardless unless you overshoot above the ledge. He'd still be pathetic off-stage when his jump's low, he commits hard with aerials, and Climhazzard's still not a flexible recovery move compared to even Aether.

Edit: Forgot about this one: what if no character could sweet-spot the ledge?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vhmo_GIrWv4 But he can.

 

[Man Li Gi]

UNTRUTH ;___;

It's a bit slow to start up, but when spaced properly it's pretty much unpunishable. Has a tonne of shieldstun, good launch angle, good damage, not too much landing lag. There's better options usually but there's a lot more forward aerials that are worse than Cloud's imo.

I saw someone say had the worst fair.

What if I told you there was a fair so horrendous it makes you cry just to look at it?

Frame 18 for hitbox to first appear, spikes from frame 21. Does 13-16% pending on timing. 29 frames of landing lag. Frame 56 FAF and frame 78 AC.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

You can use it out of cargo throw so at least it has some utility.

 

[Blobface]

I saw someone say had the worst fair.

What if I told you there was a fair so horrendous it makes you cry just to look at it?

Frame 18 for hitbox to first appear, spikes from frame 21. Does 13-16% pending on timing. 29 frames of landing lag. Frame 56 FAF and frame 78 AC.

Well,

it looks cool.

 

[|RK|]

I feel like Cloud is scaring people because he's new, good, and relatively easy to play (vs Ryu, who was new, good, and more difficult to play). He doesn't seem extreme, IMO.

 

[C0rvus]

Complain all you want about your main's crap forward air but take solace in the fact that it isn't 's.

 

[LancerStaff]

Edit: Forgot about this one: what if no character could sweet-spot the ledge?

Well, Pit would probably gain overall since Upperdash doesn't really sweetspot the ledge anyway... At least he's not getting gimped at 30% like basically everybody else would, and the Power of Flight wouldn't be useless. Cloud would indeed lose quite a bit because now he can't use Clamhazzard to grab it from a horizontal distance, and limit Clamhazzard would be nearly unusable. Multijumpers and characters with good double jumps would also benefit, especially Jigglypuff and Yoshi who would be unchanged (besides maybe pound but eh). Oh, characters with tethers too.