Official Character Competitive Impressions - Tourneys, Tiers, Theories, Tactics

[Rizen]

IMO to fix cloud all you have to do is make it so his full limit can be knocked out of him. Maybe after he takes 15% damage or something.

 

[Cereal Bawks]

That would be too big of a nerf. His Limit Break plays a huge part in his playstyle.

 

[TTTTTsd]

IMO to fix cloud all you have to do is make it so his full limit can be knocked out of him. Maybe after he takes 15% damage or something.

I think this would make very specific matchups absolutely stupid and that also completely defeats Limit building by taking damage. It also convolutes the formula significantly and is probably the least intuitive way to go about doing this. It would also remove any reward from charging Limit and make the mechanic incredibly useless even for recovery. It would even make the recovery buff super negligible, "Limit boosts my recovery but now I can't take damage" like...wat?

If it has to be done there are probably other ways but I'm keeping my mouth shut until we see a big major and see exactly what happens. Boy have opinions changed fast in here, wtf even happened? I wasn't even gone long. All I'm going to say is nerfing a two week old character or even thinking about it so early is exactly why NRS fighting games have what the FGC calls "patch fever" or "excessive patching."

 

[ParanoidDrone]

Talking about Limit Cloud being broken is weird because while it's true that all of his specials become annoyingly strong, he only gets one shot at any of them before losing Limit -- and being hit out of startup counts! On top of that, if Cloud wants to save his limit for any reason, then he's locked himself out of using any of his specials. That means no projectile, no running away to stall and charge Limit (because Limit is already charged and replaced with Finishing Touch), and if he needs to recover then he's forced to burn Limit or die anyway.

 

[Y2Kay]

I know Cloud isn't super oppresive to us, but as we speak, Cloud (and Bowser) is going on a massive killing spree on for glory. like 3DS 1.0.0 Mac bad.

I think Nintendo has learned they're lesson about nerfing characters prematurely, but I know they are gonna have to consider it.

 

[TTTTTsd]

I know Cloud isn't super oppresive to us, but as we speak, Cloud (and Bowser) is going on a massive killing spree on for glory. like 3DS 1.0.0 Mac bad.

I think Nintendo has learned they're lesson about nerfing characters prematurely, but I know they are gonna have to consider it.

I sure hope they've learned their lesson about it or I'll serious reconsider a lot of what I enjoyed about this game =V. That being said....I think the quantity of Cloud is also directly correlated with the fact that it's Cloud from FF7, but I digress. (Also I don't know if I'd call it a killing spree, most Clouds I watch get dumpstered or dunked pretty hard and generally don't play him optimally. I have no idea about their win rates and data)

Adversely my response to this statement also rings true about Bowser, I think he's fantastic as he is right now please let this never change.

 

[Y2Kay]

I sure hope they've learned their lesson about it or I'll serious reconsider a lot of what I enjoyed about this game =V. That being said....I think the quantity of Cloud is also directly correlated with the fact that it's Cloud from FF7, but I digress. (Also I don't know if I'd call it a killing spree, most Clouds I watch get dumpstered or dunked pretty hard and generally don't play him optimally. I have no idea about their win rates and data)

Adversely my response to this statement also rings true about Bowser, I think he's fantastic as he is right now please let this never change.

I'd think it would be strange to nerf him after one patch, considering how long it took for them to nerf Luigi and buff Mewtwo

I'll givre them credit where it's due, they have been super smart about the buffs and nerfs they made throughout the year. They've made compromises with the fan base and made characters competitive w/o straying away from there identity

 

[NewZen]

really doesn't need to be adjusted on his Limits at all, as one user stated, he only has one to use at a time and it takes a bit to charge it up. Also, to Mewtwo-Chainz, yes, they're going on a massive killing spree, but this is For Glory we're talking about, here...more than half of the players on there don't understand that Mac's Side-B kills them when they're near a ledge or that picking Falcon does not guarantee you an automatic win. That's not to say all people on FG are automatically bad, but a number of them can be...

Then again, that's not to discredit Cloud or Bowser. Both of these guys have effective tools to dispose of their opponents, but in the case of Cloud, what does he really have that's so busted it needs consideration for a nerf of all things? What, his F-Smash, because the last time I check, it's easily his best kill-move with some notable end lag to it, with U-Air being his best standard move with how much endlag it lacks and longevity it has on usage. Everything else has a notable flaw to it, but isn't really terrible per se. Seriously, all I've been seeing is a mad train of hatred for Cloud and it really hasn't even been that long since he's been out (Hell, he's one of my side characters, and while he's fun, he certainly isn't the easiest character to work with as everyone says he is). Crap, if anything, maybe give him a slight buff to Climhazard (Up-B) without Limit?

 

[Zelder]

I sure hope they've learned their lesson about it or I'll serious reconsider a lot of what I enjoyed about this game =V. That being said....I think the quantity of Cloud is also directly correlated with the fact that it's Cloud from FF7, but I digress. (Also I don't know if I'd call it a killing spree, most Clouds I watch get dumpstered or dunked pretty hard and generally don't play him optimally. I have no idea about their win rates and data)

Adversely my response to this statement also rings true about Bowser, I think he's fantastic as he is right now please let this never change.

Man I think you're a really intelligent poster, and I like what you've had to say about Doc and Cloud, but if you wring your hands any harder about potential Cloud nerfs you're going to break your wrists. It's going to be okay.

 

[Mario766]

Cloud has 14-15 frames of landing lag on N-Air, B-Air and U-Air. Down Air auto cancels off FH, Up-Air is gross and auto cancels one frame after the hitbox ends like D-Air. N-Air also can auto cancel unlike Ike/Shulk N-Air, which both have less landing lag but can't auto cancel off a SH.

Cloud F-Air sucks, ignore.

Cloud's B-Air is interesting, you have to rise with it to auto cancel...but only without limit. With limit it doesn't matter, B-Air will never auto cancel because it requires exactly the same amount of frames for the auto cancel window to come out as his SH, 37.

His B-Air has a lot of properties like Ike's, but that's a biggie. Ike has the same type of auto cancel window but hits harder and doesn't force Cloud to incur landing lag if used in Limit Break.

 

[TTTTTsd]

Man I think you're a really intelligent poster, and I like what you've had to say about Doc and Cloud, but if you wring your hands any harder about potential Cloud nerfs you're going to break your wrists. It's going to be okay.

I know, I know. It's just a little perturbing to read and I have my reasons for being very averse and irritated reading it (I have my reasons and I think if I posted them it'd bother someone so I'll keep it to myself), but I'll stop before I let this get the better of me. In lieu of something that's been itching at my curiosity that isn't related....

Since they changed a lot of how the Doubles metagame works this patch, I'm genuinely curious as to what's considered "optimal" in Doubles now. Given the pocket modifiers and absorbing modifiers and other such things, I consider it a significant shake up. Wonder if this'll shed any light on previously unused combinations? I know Bowser's new U-Throw knockback buff on the part that hits people will probably greatly change how he works in there. Considering his new U-Throw in general it might have some fairly interesting Doubles synergy and Bowser is a fairly good stock tank in Doubles to begin with from my experience.

EDIT: By the way thank you for the compliment. Pardon my lack of courtesy there, I try to keep most of my posts as wholesome as possible!

 

[Y2Kay]

Also, to Mewtwo-Chainz, yes, they're going on a massive killing spree, but this is For Glory we're talking about, here...more than half of the players on there don't understand that Mac's Side-B kills them when they're near a ledge or that picking Falcon does not guarantee you an automatic win.

I'm not saying that because FG players are good, but because For Glory players make up a majority of the player base. TBH, Sakurai (financially speaking) should help them first, and our situation should come second.

 

[Waroh]

Limit Cross Slash is an amazing punish and safe on block. He has ledge trap set-ups that are untech wall bounces as well as ledge trump limit cross slash.

Well, not entirely. When shielded, you can roll behind Cloud at a certain point of the attack. If done well enough, you should be able to punish with a quick move afterward depending on the characters roll length.

EDIT: Seems quick OoS options can also hit it in between, Probably those in the 1-4 frame range.

 

[NewZen]

I'm not saying that because FG players are good, but because For Glory players make up a majority of the player base. TBH, Sakurai (financially speaking) should help them first, and our situation should come second.

Oh, don't get me wrong-I'm also not saying that they're amazing by any means (With the number of Clouds showing off "Day 1" play left and right, ******* please...), it's just more of a statement of how bad most FG players tend to be, with the good ones being extensively hard to come by.

Also, I agree to some extent, but at the same time, most of them don't really strive to get better given that they more or less don't truly care for competitive play like those on this site do.

 

[Ffamran]

Since someone asked an open-ended question about edge-guarding, let me do the same.

Can someone tell me about rising aerials?

I come from a Street Fighter background where rising aerials are wildly unsafe even on hit, so I don't have them in my Smash play (vs grounded opponents) at all. Although I see double-jumps and airdodges make them less suicidal here, .... what are they good for? Who has good ones or bad ones, and why?




Sakurai strongly hinted in the recent Famitsu that Cloud will be receiving nerfs. I can find the link if desired.

Falco's double jump plus pretty much all of his aerials. It's massive height gain in a short span of time with high active aerials and/or fast aerials. I blame Dair for the and/or. His rising aerials can be used as traps and even edgeguarding which FOW's been doing with Nair close to the ledge.

Pretty sure Palu and Ganon would decimate almost everyone if the canon was followed.

And Bayonetta..I mean...she is undoubtedly the most powerful being in her universe. The woman traded blows with the god of her universe for crying out loud.

And Shulk... If we pretend that Ike is actually a family-friendly Guts, then he's up there too slaying gods instead of devils. Also, we have the most dangerous, most fearsome, most ferocious... PAC-MAN! who was this weird road eating thing in an Adam Sandler movie about video games coming to life. Was it Sandler? Eh.

I feel that the other sword characters need better frame data and autocancels on similar-looking animations (ex. swordfighter-like nairs and uairs being in the ~6-7 range instead of the 8-12 range). Ike can get by because of the ridiculous power he has, even though IMO the damage on some of his attacks are still lackluster.

Only thing I don't like about Cloud's design is uair's autocancel being 1 frame after the hitbox ends, instead of the usual 7-10 area.

Cloud's Nair is kind of ridiculous when the next fastest thing that comes to mind is Ike's Nair at frame 12, 7 frames slower, if we're talking about an arcing disjoint. If not, and we're talking about sheer-speed and Nairs, then the Pits at frame 4 which doesn't have as much range. There's also Meta Knight's frame 6 Nair if we're talking about a coverage move and it's got much less range. It's not just Nair for Cloud. Outside of Fair, none of Cloud's aerials exceed frame 12. And then you have Shulk and wonder why Cloud gets to have massive hitboxes and speed. Shulk could be a bit faster and it wouldn't be game-breaking, especially his damn jab.

Cloud's Uair seems like, going of of his reveal trailer, supposed to be used from a hop. It even looks like Cloud moves up a little, so when you use it, Cloud looks like he's doing a move similar to Ike's Utilt. Here's the problem: it lingers way too long. 19 freaking frames for a slab of metal that you cannot challenge unless you're beside or under him. That's not going to happen if he juggles you and other juggle Uairs tend to have lower active frames or have them arc instead of being a large hitbox just out waiting for you to get hit. Maybe his Uair should have lower active frames... Like 10 at most instead of 19.

Then again, the Links's Uair lingers too and the late hit is even stronger, but they have more landing lag and worse auto-cancel windows. They've got more normal auto-cancel windows while Cloud's is Fox Bair level, but Fox's Bair only lasts 3 frames.

IMO to fix cloud all you have to do is make it so his full limit can be knocked out of him. Maybe after he takes 15% damage or something.

That would go against how meters work in Final Fantasy... They could just make it take longer for Cloud to get meter.

 

[Patriot Duck]

I know Cloud isn't super oppresive to us, but as we speak, Cloud (and Bowser) is going on a massive killing spree on for glory. like 3DS 1.0.0 Mac bad.

Where's the empirical evidence that reveals Cloud's For Glory win rate? All we really have to go on is anecdotal evidence, and obviously that's not going to show us the bigger picture.

I'm not trying to defend Cloud or say he won't be nerfed in the future, but saying Cloud can't be handled in For Glory seems largely unsubstantiated to me.

 

[Sonicninja115]

Where's the empirical evidence that reveals Cloud's For Glory win rate? All we really have to go on is anecdotal evidence, and obviously that's not going to show us the bigger picture.

I'm not trying to defend Cloud or say he won't be nerfed in the future, but saying Cloud can't be handled in For Glory seems largely unsubstantiated to me.

Isn't ledge guarding harder on FG because off the lag? Plus, frame traps are much easier, so getting the big punishes shouldn't be as hard. Just a note.

 

[Jehtt]

Why are we talking about nerfing a character that was released a few weeks ago? Let him settle in a bit, geez.

 

[Fatmanonice]

Pretty sure Palu and Ganon would decimate almost everyone if the canon was followed.

And Bayonetta..I mean...she is undoubtedly the most powerful being in her universe. The woman traded blows with the god of her universe for crying out loud.

Well, yeah, considering she

Spoiler

literally punched god into the sun at the end of the first game and the embodiment of chaos into the mouth of a giant demon at the end of the second

Mewtwo, Ness, and Lucas with their psychic powers and especially Rosalina would be pretty terrifying too considering she

Spoiler

basically spurred the universe to collapse and remake itself at the end of Galaxy, not to mention she's literally the adoptive mother of every supernova and black hole and can motivate them to transform just for the hell of it

.

 

[RonNewcomb]

I sure hope they've learned their lesson about it or I'll serious reconsider a lot of what I enjoyed about this game =V. That being said....I think the quantity of Cloud is also directly correlated with the fact that it's Cloud from FF7, but I digress. (Also I don't know if I'd call it a killing spree, most Clouds I watch get dumpstered or dunked pretty hard and generally don't play him optimally. I have no idea about their win rates and data)

But on FG, incompetent Cloud beats incompetent everyone else. Most of his deaths are actually SDs.

They won't nerf the Limit Break stuff because that's Cloud's UCM. *If* they nerf Cloud -- isn't February the last balance patch? -- there's only 3 moves I see as candidates.

F-Smash, the destroyer of For Glory worlds, to have less KO power. We don't care about this.

D-air to lose the lingering active frames after the sword's green glow faded. FGers don't care about this but we'd scream bloody murder. It would effectively worsen his autocancel window, without actually changing his autocancel window, on his primary combo starter vs. grounded opponents. The setup into FT might die.

U-air to become the "Best U-air In The Game", nerfed from "Obviously Best U-air In The Game". Seriously, I think this move is running for President in 2016. They might delay its active frames until after the sword is thrust skyward (which would suck because, again, combo starter vs grounded opponents) or nerf the knockback (also sucks because KO option outside of LB).

And even if they nerf, they might also fix side-B's butterfingers.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

They won't nerf the Limit Break stuff because that's Cloud's UCM. *If* they nerf Cloud -- isn't February the last balance patch? -- there's only 3 moves I see as candidates.

February is when the last batch of DLC hits, but I don't think they're stopping with balance patches as well. Unless you expect them to walk away the moment Corrin and Bayonetta drop and ignore any imbalances they bring with them.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

Cloud F-Air sucks, ignore.

UNTRUTH ;___;

It's a bit slow to start up, but when spaced properly it's pretty much unpunishable. Has a tonne of shieldstun, good launch angle, good damage, not too much landing lag. There's better options usually but there's a lot more forward aerials that are worse than Cloud's imo.

 

[Macchiato]

UNTRUTH ;___;

It's a bit slow to start up, but when spaced properly it's pretty much unpunishable. Has a tonne of shieldstun, good launch angle, good damage, not too much landing lag. There's better options usually but there's a lot more forward aerials that are worse than Cloud's imo.

 

[Emblem Lord]

UNTRUTH ;___;

It's a bit slow to start up, but when spaced properly it's pretty much unpunishable. Has a tonne of shieldstun, good launch angle, good damage, not too much landing lag. There's better options usually but there's a lot more forward aerials that are worse than Cloud's imo.

shhhhhh

say nothing.

they mustn't know his FULL power..not yet

 

[MajorMajora]

@Cloud nerf arguments

When balancing the game you want the parts that define your character (Cloud's limit break, Rosalina's luma, Sonic's speed) to remain strong and for nerfs to occur in other parts of the character. This makes the game more fun at all levels and makes for a more interesting meta.

Nerfin limit break on cloud would be ridiculous. i'd argue his uair should stay the same too. There are plenty of other parts to nerf.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

shhhhhh

say nothing.

they mustn't know his FULL power..not yet

but when they stop trying to use it like sheik's fair, then they will know

 

[Fatmanonice]

One thing thats absolutely BS about cloud is the way limit break is designed. Its probably the easiest power meter in the game to charge since it can be charged manually or be charged by attacking or being attacked. The net benefits of it are absolutely ridiculous as well compared to other power meters. With a charged limit break, cloud not only gets a huge boost in mobility, but a ridiculous buff to his specials, some of which become quite unfair honestly. Seriously, Cloud with his limit break fully charged gets the option to use:

• A move that can kill you at 40% (even earlier with rage)
• A move that takes 1 / 3 of your stock and can kill you around 100%
• A projectile that covers a ludicrous amount of space and can put some characters in a really bad position when recovering
• A huge buff to his recovery, giving it more range, and invincibility.

The worst part is that these buffs don't wear off if you hit cloud or stall for long enough. Cloud actually has to use the special for the power meter buffs to go away. I really hope limit break is nerfed in the future so that cloud only has a limited amount of time to use the LB buffs.

I don't think they're as good as you say they are:

Spoiler

-Here's the basic kill percentages for Finishing Touch. The direction they're facing places a huge role and, if Cloud whiffs, he's left wide open. Unlike Mac's KO punch, I have yet to see any reliable set ups into it so it could be argued that it's harder to land in comparison. This being said, Cloud has much more reliable kill options.

-Cross Slash has close range and it's very easy to blow on someone's shield if you're not careful.

-This can be said about a lot of projectiles plus, if it's reflected or pocketed, there's a pretty good chance it'll do a ton of damage to Cloud on the way back. Not to mention a good portion of the cast has at least one reliable method to stop it outside of a shield. (Shown in the video here starting at the 11 minute mark.)

Spoiler

-But his climhazzard forces him to use his limit break and it's not too difficult to pressure him into this situation. Yes, it significantly improves his recovery but it inconveniences him too because he has to recharge his limit break all over again. It's like when Wario whiffs a waft and temporarily loses his trump card.

While I do agree that Cloud is probably the most accessible swordsman in the game currently, I'm not fully confident yet that he has true staying power. From all we know, he could wind up as a character that people catch onto and cause to slip ala Yoshi on the high end of things and Little Mac and Duck Hunt on the low end of things.

 

[san.]

Only reason why Cloud's fair isn't utter trash is because his nair exists. Because of that, he's able to use fair whenever it's occasionally useful, instead of the fair hurting the character.

 

[Fatmanonice]

Even with Cloud doing as well as he's doing, it could easily come crashing down once Bae-onetta comes out. The character is easily shaping up to be top 5 unless it turns out she's a lot like Palutena and most attacks outside her smash attacks are mosquito bite weak (although that hasn't slowed down Sheik, come to think of it...) . Although the trailers are meant to make the respective characters look stupidly good, it's pretty clear that Bayonetta's edge guarding tools are going to be top notch and god help your character if their recovery is slow and/or uses a recovery option that doesn't have an auto ledge snap.

 

[Macchiato]

Although the trailers are meant to make the respective characters look stupidly good, it's pretty clear that Bayonetta's edge guarding tools are going to be top notch and god help your character if their recovery is slow and/or uses a recovery option that doesn't have an auto ledge snap.

>Palutena trailer
>"SHES SO BROKENS"
>... k

 

[Big-Cat]

I honestly don't see the issue with Cloud. He seems fine to me. He's got similar range range to Ike, but he can't kill in a footsies match unless it involves Limit Break. Cloud's a character where you have to turn his strengths against him.

 

[Locke 06]

If you nerfed limit break meter to charge slower/took more damage to charge, how much would that change Cloud?

Luma's health has been tweaked multiple times. Luma's respawn time has also been changed. Rosalina is fine in that department/people adjusted.

I will say this though, Cloud's floor is incredibly high. Sword players understandably complain about how easy he gets certain things sword characters traditionally (in smash 4) have to work for: autocancels, mobility, Dash attack, projectile, active frames, range, and startup.

He's a reminder to those who were late to the party. "Disjoints never go out of style."

 

[C0rvus]

If you increase the amount of time it takes to charge Limit, then Clouds will camp to charge it for longer. It changes nothing in a meaningful way.
Cloud nerfs would be premature. And what if he's a good character? That's great news, another usable sword character is a good thing for the sake of diversity.

 

[NoTechZone]

really doesn't need to be adjusted on his Limits at all, as one user stated, he only has one to use at a time and it takes a bit to charge it up. Also, to Mewtwo-Chainz, yes, they're going on a massive killing spree, but this is For Glory we're talking about, here...more than half of the players on there don't understand that Mac's Side-B kills them when they're near a ledge or that picking Falcon does not guarantee you an automatic win. That's not to say all people on FG are automatically bad, but a number of them can be...

Then again, that's not to discredit Cloud or Bowser. Both of these guys have effective tools to dispose of their opponents, but in the case of Cloud, what does he really have that's so busted it needs consideration for a nerf of all things? What, his F-Smash, because the last time I check, it's easily his best kill-move with some notable end lag to it, with U-Air being his best standard move with how much endlag it lacks and longevity it has on usage. Everything else has a notable flaw to it, but isn't really terrible per se. Seriously, all I've been seeing is a mad train of hatred for Cloud and it really hasn't even been that long since he's been out (Hell, he's one of my side characters, and while he's fun, he certainly isn't the easiest character to work with as everyone says he is). Crap, if anything, maybe give him a slight buff to Climhazard (Up-B) without Limit?

I totally agree. Buff his recovery. It's worse than Mac. Mac has side b to mixup with his up b. Also, his up b ledge snaps if you sweet spot it. Cloud, on the other hand offstage is so predictable your opponent screwed up if you survive. My older brother eats my cloud up with F.L.U.D.D. and cape. They should Buff D-air recovery frames too. just enough to walk off the stage immediately D-air and make it back. That or his up b. #BuffCloud

Thought I'd add he can't reverse temple jump ( that I know) even with limit break.

 

[Sonicninja115]

UNTRUTH ;___;

It's a bit slow to start up, but when spaced properly it's pretty much unpunishable. Has a tonne of shieldstun, good launch angle, good damage, not too much landing lag. There's better options usually but there's a lot more forward aerials that are worse than Cloud's imo.

Plus you can frame cancel it. That has it's rather large upsides.

 

[LancerStaff]

Cloud's Nair is kind of ridiculous when the next fastest thing that comes to mind is Ike's Nair at frame 12, 7 frames slower, if we're talking about an arcing disjoint. If not, and we're talking about sheer-speed and Nairs, then the Pits at frame 4 which doesn't have as much range.

Well, Pit also has his Dair which is an arcing disjoint which hits on f10-12, and does hit up front effectively. Not incredibly strong or fast but it does combo into itself and other aerials when DI'd.

And of course Cloud's Nair only hits that fast right behind him and then goes up and around rather then starting below.

I will say this though, Cloud's floor is incredibly high. Sword players understandably complain about how easy he gets certain things sword characters traditionally (in smash 4) have to work for: autocancels, mobility, Dash attack, projectile, active frames, range, and startup.

He's a reminder to those who were late to the party. "Disjoints never go out of style."

Seems like the Pits are the only ones none too upset with Cloud's design, hehehe.

 

[Fatmanonice]

I totally agree. Buff his recovery. I think it's worse than Mac. Mac has side b to mixup with his up b. Also, his up b ledge snaps if you sweet spot it. Cloud, on the other hand offstage is so predictable your opponent screwed up if you survive. My older brother eats my cloud up with F.L.U.D.D. and cape. #BuffCloud

Thought I'd add he can't reverse temple jump ( that I know) even with limit break.

I disagree. Cloud has much better air mobility, can somewhat defend himself coming back to the stage, and technically has two air stalls in the form of blade beam and cross slash. There's also the fact that the Limit Break climhazzard does autosnap and is significantly more reliable and safe than anything Mac has when it comes to recovering. Also, Cloud can use the climhazzard to kamikaze some gimp attempts similar to Ganondorf's choke or Kirby/Dedede's inhale if the situation calls for it. Little Mac is significantly more helpless off stage than Cloud. Coming back to the stage, I'd argue Cloud is roughly as safe as Mario or Captain Falcon.

 

[S_B]

If he nerfs Cloud but not Sheik, it's time to poop in the sunroof of Sakurai's car.

Seriously, Cloud has a very strong neutral, and that's to make up for his offstage game and the fact that throwing him off the stage at a low angle even once can probably result in a kill.

Cloud players have exactly one mixup to use in that situation (without LB), and that's either choosing to recover about an on-screen inch away from the ledge and then drifting toward it or trying to snap to it as fast as possible, and you'll want to punish each one a bit differently but they can both be intercepted and Cloud will likely die as a result.

It's not like Sheik or ZSS who both have some amazing neutral games, but ALSO have disgustingly good recoveries that will more than likely get YOU killed if you try to intercept them.

And who knows. Maybe Cloud will become known for being an anti-Sheik/ZSS, which would be the best thing for the metagame since they nerfed hoo-haa...

 

[NoTechZone]

I disagree. Cloud has much better air mobility, can somewhat defend himself coming back to the stage, and technically has two air stalls in the form of blade beam and cross slash. There's also the fact that the Limit Break climhazzard does autosnap and is significantly more reliable and safe than anything Mac has when it comes to recovering. Also, Cloud can use the climhazzard to kamikaze some gimp attempts similar to Ganondorf's choke or Kirby/Dedede's inhale if the situation calls for it. Little Mac is significantly more helpless off stage than Cloud. Coming back to the stage, I'd argue Cloud is roughly as safe as Mario or Captain Falcon.

Good point. His cross slash stops momentum though and can cause an SD. Limit break climhazzard is very situational and when you don't have it is where I want the buff. Just make his regular up b ledge snap. I agree now that you've made your point that his recovery being worse than Mac was a bit of a stretch, but he's definitely down there.

 

[hypersonicJD]

A lot of characters from the Smash universe would fit that category.

Sonic is one of them. He would obliterate the entire Smash cast with not a single sweat. Except Bayonetta. Bayonetta would defeat him easily. But even then, Sonic is really really powerful. Also, Kirby is also pretty strong. He has defeated many God-like galaxy destroyers in every single game. Hell, if we take on count the True Arena mini-game from Superstar Ultra and Return to Dreamland, Kirby has defeated the strongest warrior on his universe. TWICE