Official Character Competitive Impressions - Tourneys, Tiers, Theories, Tactics

[Emblem Lord]

Cuz Cloud CRAPS on ZSS

 

[Smooth Criminal]

Cuz Cloud CRAPS on ZSS

Bruh, you're gonna have to go into a little more detail than that. I ain't buying it.

...respectably.

Smooth Criminal

 

[C0rvus]

On the topic of ledge coverage vs edgeguarding, it seems very character dependent, but there's also a risk/reward at play here. The most familiar example I can think of is Robin versus Mario. Robin's safest and most reliable option when Mario is recovering is to Arcfire the ledge in a manner that covers neutral getup and ledge attack. Ledge jump and roll are feasible to react to, and waiting means I put out another Arcfire or anticipate a ledge roll. If he gets caught by Arcfire, at worst it's a juggle situation, at best it's his stock.
It is safest to do this setup, but a) you cannot always do it (no more arcfire, you aren't able to get to the ledge in time) and b) it is very easy to see coming. There are other options, like standing back and firing Arc Thunder or Thoron on reaction, since they can snuff out multiple options. This is also pretty safe, but the reward is small most often.
Robin's nair sends people at a great angle for edgeguards, and against a Mario with no double jump, that's the stock almost without fail. Hitting this can completely turn a match in your favor. However, it is usually a bad idea. Robin is pretty mediocre offstage, since his recovery is so linear and has no hitbox to cover him. So if you miss, you're being edgeguarded now. Mario's recovery also has invincibility and can stage spike you if you mess up. This is a very risky option, but the reward is very great.
Regardless, against Sheik or ZSS, going offstage after them is fruitless and will probably get you killed, so don't even try it. Conversely, giving characters like Cloud and Doctor Mario the slightest of love taps offstage is instant death, and characters like Villager and ROB recovering low are enticing targets for some offstage harassment or Elwind spikes, so it's very touch and go.

On the topic of Cloud crapping on Zero Suit...
Emblem Lord pls deliver.

(Also Cloud craps on Robin in my experience. Hooray for more bad matchups.)

 

[Nobie]

I don't think we should drop the spacing subject just yet. Not because some characters are more difficult than others or whatever, but because "good spacing" means so many different things to different characters in Smash 4 that I think this is where a lot of the confusion comes in.

Marth and Ryu were both mentioned as characters that rely heavily on spacing, with the idea that Marth's spacing is only more important because doing it properly yields higher rewards. However, I want to point out that even between these two "spacing-oriented characters," how they space is actually significantly different.

As mentioned, Ryu is a counterpoking character. His attacks are not particularly long-ranged, and he has a mix of speedy, extremely short-ranged moves, decently long but slower ones, and then down smash which basically functions as an unusually strong poke. I'm simplifying, but essentially just as Ryu can counterpoke his opponents, so too can he be counterpoked. Each one of his normals comes with its own set of limitations, but because he simply has more moves than anyone else he has more tools in his kit to work with.

Marth is different. While his range isn't quite to the extent of other swordsmen, at the end of the day he has this nice, large disjointed sword that, combined with his overall speed and mobility, makes it so that he can beat things you do with just jab if he really wants to. Of course, he gets rewarded for spacing tipper properly, and he still plays the footsies game, but the way most characters fight Marth is not to try and counterpoke back but rather to take advantage of the end lag on his attacks. He wants to position himself in such a way that he can just swat away whatever it is you're doing.

Let's look at some more examples. How does Mario space? He relies on superior frame data and air control to either overwhelm up close or deceive the opponent through crossups and such.

Ness? He wants to overcome a lack of range on certain key moves through the use of small disjoints and the ability to fade away during short hops.

Mega Man wants to keep you out through smart pellet usage and because being too close when he's pelleting means you can punish him for it. He has an excellent grab, but he only ever wants to close the gap on his own terms.

Mewtwo, especially post-patch, is just a bundle of mobility, heavy coverage long-ranged attacks (dtilt, ftilt), and specialized "priority" moves (Confusion beats shields and errant pokes, Jab doesn't recoil). The difference between Mewtwo and a lot of swordsmen, however, is that Mewtwo often extends his hurtbox a good deal too, making him susceptible to trades.

I could go on like this. Ryu's spacing IS unique, and it does require a great deal of work to master, but it's also the case that approaching spacing in the same way across different characters can be a recipe for disaster.

 

[DanGR]

On ZSS vs Cloud, maybe Cloud doing well has something to do with...

• limit charging being silly good + ZSS not having safe rushdown.
• speed to get in + burst options (namely dtilt/DA) to challenge and punish landings and normally safe ZSS zoning. Speaking of which...
• Cloud's aerials > ZSS' SH falling aerials, and elsewhere.
  
• missed grabs = huge punish. Cloud is fast enough and jumps safely enough that it's less likely grabs will land vs him compared to other characters with more grounded gameplans. It's not really an option to grab and maybe miss if he has full limit bar.
• ZSS doesn't really have the burst aerial options to deal well with a lot stuff he does in neutral.

Even if ZSS still wins the matchup (who really knows at this point), he has a lot of tools that ZSS doesn't like. It's not that far-fetched.

 

[|RK|]

[

The degree of the MU inexperience should be the point viewed the most critical here. Nairo is obviously amazing, but people get caught off guard plenty of times, and here, it shows just how much MU inexperience can carry a person.

Isn't some of that alleviated by the fact that Nairo has played the character since his release?

Plus, Nairo lost to Tweek in Cloud dittos before GFs IIRC.

 

[ReroRero]

I come out of nowhere but I have a question, does the characters buffed in the lastest patchs got really better ?

 

[Wintermelon43]

I come out of nowhere but I have a question, does the characters buffed in the lastest patchs got really better ?

Bowser, Mewtwo, Lucas, and Kirby are better

 

[Y2Kay]

I need to get something off my chest.......

If I hear another commentator say greninja is "a poor man's sheik" I'll jump out a window

 

[HoSmash4]

As much as we can suggest matchup inexperience being a major factor (which is correct), its suggesting that Clouds metagame is anywhere near complete 7 days in.

The arguement works in both ways. Matchup experience vs little development.

 

[Yikarur]

Cloud is super easy to pick-up. So it's probably by far easier to learn to play Cloud than learning to play against Cloud in that short period of time. He wouldn't be so overplayed in the first week if he wouldn't be that easy to play while being effective overall.

 

[Rizen]

As much as we can suggest matchup inexperience being a major factor (which is correct), its suggesting that Clouds metagame is anywhere near complete 7 days in.

The arguement works in both ways. Matchup experience vs little development.

This is true but I think Cloud is a character who's very easy to use if you (the player) know the basic mechanics of smash. He seems like one of the characters who is very good at first but will drop a bit when people figure out how to space/punish him, like Brawl G&W.

 

[FullMoon]

I need to get something off my chest.......

If I hear another commentator say greninja is "a poor man's sheik" I'll jump out a window

You better get yourself ready for that jump then.

 

[Y2Kay]

You better get yourself ready for that jump then.

I find this hilarous since it was your match with Dabuz that triggered me

 

[FullMoon]

I find this hilarous since it was your match with Dabuz that triggered me

That was so long ago lol

Wifi shenanigans eyy.

 

[Baby_Sneak]

Isn't some of that alleviated by the fact that Nairo has played the character since his release?

Plus, Nairo lost to Tweek in Cloud dittos before GFs IIRC.

A week in is no time really lol.

Like, we are talking about figuring out a character in a week basically. We still haven't fully figured out some characters that was here since 1.0.

 

[Routa]

A week in is no time really lol.

Like, we are talking about figuring out a character in a week basically. We still haven't fully figured out some characters that was here since 1.0.

*looks at the Miis*

But there is a reason why they are still a bit mystery mix. What is the reason? Rules. But let's not talk about that.

 

[Nobie]

This is just a fun aside, but I was watching the Street Fighter video of "Did You Know Gaming?" and it mentions that the original SFII actually had a rage-like mechanic: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6A38qsDGt2I#t=5m1s

Essentially, when characters were low on health, they would get a boost to their attack power.

I find it fascinating because complaints about comeback mechanics are common in pretty much every modern fighting game, but they were also in place from the very beginning.

 

[Routa]

I personally am a fan of rage. I like the idea that even tho you are nearly dead you can still make a comeback. Last stand boost, eh? Rocky movies anyone? Someone making a comeback is hype as **** and you cannot deny it. Ofc it is rather odd thing as a mechanic, but... As I said hype as ****.

 

[Browny]

Rage is dumb because in say for example, a mewtwo ditto match they are both at 100 and one grabs the other for a uthrow but it doesnt kill. The other mewtwo comes down and does the same thing back to them and it kills.

Literally being punished for landing the hit first.

 

[C0rvus]

Rage helps heavies out quite a bit. Lord knows heavies needed a boost in some way.

 

[Routa]

Rage helps heavies out quite a bit. Lord knows heavies needed a boost in some way.

Ganondorf with max rage isn't a nice thing to meet in a dark alley.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

This is a competitive impressions thread, Nairo, undisputed number 2 player, lost his first tourney since MLG. How is it irrelevant and why should we not examine and talk about what happened in the matches?

Because good players also lost to that Mewtwo example I mentioned?

People really don't seem to understand this: Its quicker to pick up how to play a character than how to play against a character. To play a character you just sit down, lab them a little bit, and then just... play friendlies and the like. You get experience every single match you use that character and grow with them rapidly. You get to control your growth rate.

You can't do that when trying to learn how to play against a character. CPUs are garbo for learning that sort of thing. Online is a joke. You have to go to smashfests or tournaments and ask somebody to use them against you. You're gaining experience at a lot slower rate, and it doesn't allow you to easily learn multiple playstyles of that character you're trying to fight against either. Or you could more or less learn "false" information on how to fight that character because you know the player's style too well and end up reading them instead of the character. Its a pretty darn slow process of truly figuring out how to fight against a character and you can't control the growth rate.

People will always figure out how to use a character long before anyone figures out a universal, clear cut way to fight against them. The first has to happen and be solidified before the second can even begin. Until that happens... ya its largely irrelevant. Its interesting, its part of the process, but in the grand scheme of things it holds no water as to a character's usefulness.

 

[Sonicninja115]

Because good players also lost to that Mewtwo example I mentioned?

People really don't seem to understand this: Its quicker to pick up how to play a character than how to play against a character. To play a character you just sit down, lab them a little bit, and then just... play friendlies and the like. You get experience every single match you use that character and grow with them rapidly. You get to control your growth rate.

You can't do that when trying to learn how to play against a character. CPUs are garbo for learning that sort of thing. Online is a joke. You have to go to smashfests or tournaments and ask somebody to use them against you. You're gaining experience at a lot slower rate, and it doesn't allow you to easily learn multiple playstyles of that character you're trying to fight against either. Or you could more or less learn "false" information on how to fight that character because you know the player's style too well and end up reading them instead of the character. Its a pretty darn slow process of truly figuring out how to fight against a character and you can't control the growth rate.

People will always figure out how to use a character long before anyone figures out a universal, clear cut way to fight against them. The first has to happen and be solidified before the second can even begin. Until that happens... ya its largely irrelevant. Its interesting, its part of the process, but in the grand scheme of things it holds no water as to a character's usefulness.

Are the VODs up yet? It is pretty easy to see how much of a factor MU inexperience is in a match. If Nairo was making suboptimal decisions and constantly getting recked by LB, then it was probably MU inexperience. But if he just got plain beaten, and he was responding to the character accordingly, then he was just defeated. Sure he is obviously going to lab the MU more and find out how to better beat Cloud, but there is a chance it wasn't MU inexperience.

 

[warionumbah2]

Are the VODs up yet?

 

[TTTTTsd]

I think that while it is definitely too early to call definitive matchups, I think early results are important in a sense especially if we're talking frequency. Yes Mewtwo & Trela was a thing, but you also have to look at the players Cloud has beaten, and in this week alone he's already gotten more results in terms of weight than Mewtwo did in one month.

This could have ANY varying amount of relevance later on which is why the weight of this statement is potentially low, but he's already done more than Month One Mewtwo who is cited as the poster boy for counting chickens before they hatch, but we have Cloud beating Cacogen, Tweek beating Nairo in both the ditto and the ZSS MU, and no it doesn't say anything about Cloud's long term viability as a whole but when you compare this feat to Trela's Mewtwo placement, it is undisputably MUCH more impressive.

PS I think early impressions are super important and nobody should be afraid to be incorrect as long as they're being honest and reasonable. I mean, if early results/impressions weren't worth it, this thread wouldn't have been around come 3DS release date. This is strictly my opinion but I think assigning heavy value to early results is bad but it's adversely bad to write them off as nothing but one thing. Seems like it's oversimplifying, and IDK if it's the intention that people have when they rebuke early results but it's always the way it looks to me. I mean if we're wrong about Cloud in REASONABLE early impressions, we can go back, study why, and ultimately gain more knowledge for it.

Regardless congrats to @Tweek for that win!

 

[Mazdamaxsti]

Rage helps almost every character but it is a mechanic nobody likes, it helps by giving an unfair advantage.

 

[Sonicninja115]

It looked like Nairo had the MU down with Black Pit, but then he sorta fell to pieces with ZSS. I don't know if it was a bad MU or what, because Nairo definetly knows how to fight cloud...

 

[Spinosaurus]

I personally am a fan of rage. I like the idea that even tho you are nearly dead you can still make a comeback. Last stand boost, eh? Rocky movies anyone? Someone making a comeback is hype as **** and you cannot deny it. Ofc it is rather odd thing as a mechanic, but... As I said hype as ****.

Mechanics that rewards the players for getting hit are rarely ever good. This just makes losing a stock lead all that more significant. Losing rage sucks for a lot of characters.

 

[David Viran]

It looked like Nairo had the MU down with Black Pit, but then he sorta fell to pieces with ZSS. I don't know if it was a bad MU or what, because Nairo definetly knows how to fight cloud...

Just because you know how to fight one character with another doesn't mean you are good at fighting him with all the characters. It's the same reason why if you are best at the ditto with your character, it doesn't mean you are the best with your character.

 

[meleebrawler]

Mechanics that rewards the players for getting hit are rarely ever good. This just makes losing a stock lead all that more significant. Losing rage sucks for a lot of characters.

So... getting killed and losing your rage is a reward for being hit?

Why do people always see comeback mechanics as something that rewards "getting hit"? Is it a valid strategy to let the opponent beat you up in Street Fighter IV so that you can use your Ultra Combo? Is it common practice to let your team drop to one in Marvel vs. Capcom 3 just so that you can use X-Factor to the fullest?

Taking damage is just something that happens in fighting games, no two ways about it. The mechanics may help losing players but they still have to be skilled enough to actually be able to use it. If a player gets tossed around at the beginning of the match but then turns things around, sure the rage may have contributed but he still needed to adapt to his opponent to be able to do so.

Enter Lucario, a character who takes this to the logical extreme.

He's one of the most controversial characters in the game, which is likely because he not only gets power boosts to his damage but also his neutral, namely Force Palm's range and Aura Sphere's size.

It's oft been said that his efforts at low aura are meaningless, and that he's better off waiting until he gets more of it to do anything... but is it not more advantageous for him to try to raise the opponent's damage while his aura's low, so that he does not need to accumulate so much aura to kill?

In short, Lucario's goal isn't to get himself at high damages, but to live long enough to be able to use it.

 

[RonNewcomb]

On ZSS vs Cloud, maybe Cloud doing well has something to do with...

• limit charging being silly good + ZSS not having safe rushdown.
• speed to get in + burst options (namely dtilt/DA) to challenge and punish landings and normally safe ZSS zoning. Speaking of which...
• Cloud's aerials > ZSS' SH falling aerials, and elsewhere.
  
• missed grabs = huge punish. Cloud is fast enough and jumps safely enough that it's less likely grabs will land vs him compared to other characters with more grounded gameplans. It's not really an option to grab and maybe miss if he has full limit bar.
• ZSS doesn't really have the burst aerial options to deal well with a lot stuff he does in neutral.

Even if ZSS still wins the matchup (who really knows at this point), he has a lot of tools that ZSS doesn't like. It's not that far-fetched.

I dunno. The 2 most disjointed moves in that MU both belong to ZSS: zair and side-B. Side-B in particular is good for pushing people to, and over, the ledge. Cloud shouldn't be able to windmill his nair in neutral for free here. And his great uair juggles get denied by Flip Kick. We won't mention how off-stage goes between them.

 

[TTTTTsd]

Also someone mentioned Mario as Cloud's worst MU, I'd have to disagree. In the given pool of Sheik, Mario, and Greninja (only going by sample size provided above) I'd say Sheik is the worst by far.

From my experience with both chars I don't believe Mario gets in as easy as Sheik does and while his combo game is potent on Cloud and the gimps are real, I don't believe his best combos have very strong horizontal carry especially not to the level of Sheik Fair strings or basically any BnB Sheik combo I've seen. He still wins ofc but I think Sheik is by far the worst.

Additionally I think Mario's mobility, while very good, is not optimal in the Cloud MU. Cloud has the mobility to very much keep up in the neutral and I think Mario's shorthop in this matchup is not incredibly helpful as it's rather high and is covered very easily by Cloud's disjoints, both of which autocancel with and without Limit, these disjoints being Nair and Uair. Normally I'd say approach vertically even with Cloud Uair but Mario doesn't have a considerable downwards disjointed move (Dair is primarily horizontal and above Mario.) Mario's air speed is his best mobility attribute and his ground speed, while very good, is still kinda average. I don't think he's to be underestimated in this MU, but I wouldn't put him over Sheik here.

That being said I think Mario still wins this matchup, of course. BUT I believe Sheik gets in for a lot less effort and most likely more reward, even if it's not in a raw damage sense it is very much more beneficial in a positioning sense.

I think Cloud realistically stands a chance in all of these though, they're just (more than likely) the worst ones he has to deal with going by what we know right now.

 

[Spinosaurus]

So... getting killed and losing your rage is a reward for being hit?

Why do people always see comeback mechanics as something that rewards "getting hit"? Is it a valid strategy to let the opponent beat you up in Street Fighter IV so that you can use your Ultra Combo? Is it common practice to let your team drop to one in Marvel vs. Capcom 3 just so that you can use X-Factor to the fullest?

Taking damage is just something that happens in fighting games, no two ways about it. The mechanics may help losing players but they still have to be skilled enough to actually be able to use it. If a player gets tossed around at the beginning of the match but then turns things around, sure the rage may have contributed but he still needed to adapt to his opponent to be able to do so.

You're given a good chance to make up for your mistakes. That shouldn't happen, period. Doesn't mater if you need the skills to make that comeback, you were losing.

Ultras and X-Factor are terrible for a reason.

 

[Thinkaman]

Rage doesn't reward anyone for getting hit.

Rage does nothing until you hit the opponent back, and it's never as good as what you would have done if you had hit them twice.


ALSO, can we talk about how When La Troof's Bowser gets 2-0'd by Seagull Joe's sonic, it's "still an important match that just shows how much Bowser has to be respected"...

...but when Tweek's Cloud 2-0s Nario's ZSS, it's "well, best not to read into it, results don't matter for like a month."

?????

 

[RonNewcomb]

Rage doesn't reward anyone for getting hit.

Rage does nothing until you hit the opponent back, and it's never as good as what you would have done if you hit then twice.


ALSO, can we talk about how When La Troof's Bowser gets 2-0'd by Seagull Joe's sonic, it's "still an important match that just shows how much Bowser has to be respected"...

...but when Tweek's Cloud 2-0s Nario's ZSS, it's "well, best not to read into it, results don't matter for like a month."

?????

Bowser isn't a new character. Cloud is. It's always easier to understand a variation on a theme.

 

[Blobface]

Tweek used limit really well but I think it's notable he only died offstage once, when he got his DJ stolen by the very horizontal electroshock arm. While he did a good job of using Cloud's limited recovery, Nairo still mostly just stayed onstage. Cloud's recovery is almost never a free edgeguard, and he's not going to die every time he's offstage, but against good edgeguarding the bottom blastzone should be the majority of Cloud's deaths.

But yeah, considering that no other DLC character has gotten these kinds of results this quickly, I think it's safe to say Cloud is well off in the meta game.

 

[Thinkaman]

Bowser isn't a new character. Cloud is. It's always easier to understand a variation on a theme.

And either one is easier than beating Nairo.

I'm not saying let's call it and crown Cloud our new deity, but how is this result not the only thing we are talking about this week?

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Are the VODs up yet? It is pretty easy to see how much of a factor MU inexperience is in a match. If Nairo was making suboptimal decisions and constantly getting recked by LB, then it was probably MU inexperience. But if he just got plain beaten, and he was responding to the character accordingly, then he was just defeated. Sure he is obviously going to lab the MU more and find out how to better beat Cloud, but there is a chance it wasn't MU inexperience.

Even if it doesn't look suboptimal to us right now, it will be. You can't go up against a character so new and play optimally against them. Nobody has the knowledge to do that in the first place. So again: its interesting to be sure, but being forced to play suboptimally due to a lack of general knowledge can seriously hamper anyone.

That's what makes it different from the La Troof situation: not only did La Troof still get beaten its still the same baseline character. If you knew how to fight against Bowser at all before the same general principals applies: just that Bowser could actually properly punish you for messing up now.

 

[meleebrawler]

You're given a good chance to make up for your mistakes. That shouldn't happen, period. Doesn't mater if you need the skills to make that comeback, you were losing.

Ultras and X-Factor are terrible for a reason.

Games without comeback mechanics tend not to be very accessible. Case in point: Melee at competitive level.

Comeback mechanics are only bad if they are so powerful that abusing them is a legitimate strategy, or it supplants other winning strategies. Older Mario Karts are an example of this, because the items you got were strictly tied to your position it was often worthwhile to hang back a bit in order to potentially snag a really powerful item without too much consequences. Now in Mario Kart 8 the items you get are based on your distance from the 1st place player, so it's much harder to sandbag items.

I repeat: are Ultra Combos and X-Factor so potent as to centralize the whole game on them? And if Ultras are so unfair, why aren't they banned, or even soft-banned at tournaments? X-Factor is a borderline case admittedly, but then the entirety of MVC3 is insanity anyhow.

Besides, if it's not comeback mechanics, then it's handicaps placed at the beginning of a match. If you don't include anything to give losing players a fighting chance, then new players likely won't be interested in continuing with the game if they just get stomped by better players continuously.