Official Character Competitive Impressions - Tourneys, Tiers, Theories, Tactics

[C0rvus]

As much of a scrubby buzzword braindead is, it has nothing to do with playstyle variance or lack of weaknesses. Ness is perhaps the ultimate example of a braindead character; in fact, I dropped him because of his ease of use and low skill ceiling. I felt like he was netting me wins I should not have gotten, and I wasn't learning about the game. Of course, this was when the game was pretty new. Ness hasn't really evolved much beyond then, though. Is it because he can't, or because he doesn't have to? I couldn't really tell you. Call me a scrub or whatever, (I still struggle very much with the scrub mindset, so I am a scrub lol) but don't tell me Ness is difficult. He's not.

Being easy certainly isn't a bad thing. Maybe Ness has places to go that I was too inexperienced to see. If not, then he stands still while MU knowledge spreads and counterplay grows stronger.

 

[Mario766]

People are talking about Ness being the easy character when there's this really easy to pick up character who everyone boasts at having little to no weaknesses who is also seen as a very strong high tier in this game.

Who am I talking about

Mario.

The only really braindead thing about Ness is that you can pretty much end a stock off a grab at 90 if they get grabbed in a bad spot, with literally zero counterplay.

 

[NachoOfCheese]

Okay. I think we're about to spiral into one of those discussions again so let me just say this:
If you complain about a character being too easy to win with then you should probably pick them up and get some easy tourney wins.

That's what I would do. If you can't do that then I guess that character isn't easy enough ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

 

[C0rvus]

And his out of shield game, his punish game is super flowchart. PK Thunder juggles are sooooo silly in certain MUs. But I digress.

Mario is in the same boat, and is probably a more consistent character overall. His weaknesses are far more forgiving.

Edit: I apologize for pushing further into a pointless discussion. Let's talk about something else.

 

[Mario766]

Just because a character is easy to play at a high level doesn't mean that everyone should pick up the character.

Pre-Nerf Diddy Kong is the ultimate example of this. Not everyone picked him up because he just wasn't for everyone.

 

[NachoOfCheese]

Just because a character is easy to play at a high level doesn't mean that everyone should pick up the character.

Pre-Nerf Diddy Kong is the ultimate example of this. Not everyone picked him up because he just wasn't for everyone.

Those people had a bad time ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

The reason why that doesn't apply now is that nobody in the current patch is anywhere near that good.

 

[LiteralGrill]

Mario in Smash 4 is going to slowly fall down bit by bit just like he did in Melee but probably not as far. He's easy to pick up, easy to learn combos with, a solid character, but not exactly mind blowingly spectacular like other characters we see. A perfect pocket character to have if certain matchups just aren't doable for lower tiers.

 

[Fatmanonice]

FF Uairs aren't exactly hard to pull off. You short hop, Uair and FF. Sometimes varying the order of the latter two commands. Hardly turns Ness into Melee Fox.

That's not the point I was trying to make. I didn't say it was hard to do, I'm saying that low level Ness players rarely do it. It's just something a lot of them don't think about when playing as Ness.

As much of a scrubby buzzword braindead is, it has nothing to do with playstyle variance or lack of weaknesses. Ness is perhaps the ultimate example of a braindead character; in fact, I dropped him because of his ease of use and low skill ceiling. I felt like he was netting me wins I should not have gotten, and I wasn't learning about the game. Of course, this was when the game was pretty new. Ness hasn't really evolved much beyond then, though. Is it because he can't, or because he doesn't have to? I couldn't really tell you. Call me a scrub or whatever, (I still struggle very much with the scrub mindset, so I am a scrub lol) but don't tell me Ness is difficult. He's not.

Being easy certainly isn't a bad thing. Maybe Ness has places to go that I was too inexperienced to see. If not, then he stands still while MU knowledge spreads and counterplay grows stronger.

I strongly disagree especially given how some of his weaknesses are more prominent than a good number of the high tiers. His recovery still isn't that safe and pretty vulnerable against grab release options near the edge and ledge trumps thanks to his weird jump. Aside from his bthrow and uair, his kill options aren't that reliable and it's very easy to catch on to Ness players who try to be too much of a grabby Sam. Also, Rosalina vs Ness is probably one of the biggest blow out match up in the high tiers and I'd argue that Mario, Villager, ZSS, and Sheik have good tools against him too.

 

[Kofu]

That's not the point I was trying to make. I didn't say it was hard to do, I'm saying that low level Ness players rarely do it. It's just something a lot of them don't think about when playing as Ness.

Ness's UAir is basically an aerial version of a lot of characters' USmashes. Fast, powerful, and covering a large arc (may even have partial invincibility but not sure). He definitely puts his disproportionately large noggin to good use for the move.

 

[Seagull Joe]

well speak of the devil, this matchup got played out last night. Seagull was definitely in control, but Bowser was far from helpless

I could've chose to run away freely if I desired. I chose to go in allowing space to do stuff.

Damn. That guy has one nice hat.

To me it looks like Bowser is in fact way more competitive than pre patch. That MU doesn't look as bad now.

Matchup is like 30-70 now probably.

 

[S_B]

Matchup is like 30-70 now probably.

Yeah, Bowser still needs to actually LAND the grab to get anything really accomplished against Sonic...

 

[Fatmanonice]

When it comes to seemingly easy to use characters, I've always liked to use the term "noobslayer" because I feel that some characters are significantly better against lower level players but get less and less effective as you move up the ladder. For low level players, I would argue are this game's current noobslayers while for the mid level I would argue that it's and maybe . This isn't to say that these last four are bad, just that you notice that these characters usually come to a screeching halt in the top 8 at bigger tournaments and seem to mostly have a presence at smaller ones, usually being played by above average players. Common trait among all these characters is that they have notable weaknesses but not every player will know how to exploit them and they typically have tactics that quickly frustrate lower skilled players like Duck Hunt's projectiles, Little Mac's use of super armor, and Ness's follow ups out of PK fire. Again, this isn't a stab at players of these characters because they usually are aware of this too and the more prominent ones will openly admit to situations that cause these characters to crumple.

 

[C0rvus]

That's not the point I was trying to make. I didn't say it was hard to do, I'm saying that low level Ness players rarely do it. It's just something a lot of them don't think about when playing as Ness.



I strongly disagree especially given how some of his weaknesses are more prominent than a good number of the high tiers. His recovery still isn't that safe and pretty vulnerable against grab release options near the edge and ledge trumps thanks to his weird jump. Aside from his bthrow and uair, his kill options aren't that reliable and it's very easy to catch on to Ness players who try to be too much of a grabby Sam. Also, Rosalina vs Ness is probably one of the biggest blow out match up in the high tiers and I'd argue that Mario, Villager, ZSS, and Sheik have good tools against him too.

Having bad matchups doesn't affect how easy it is to play a character. It affects how successful you will be, but that's not necessarily what being braindead is.

I also struggle to see Bowser Jr. as a noob slayer, but idk. In my list, Yoshi is there, and Link definitely has the FG stereotype about him. Of course, every player is different. We all have differing strengths and weaknesses, so the things that stomped me at low level are going to be different. Mid level too. Fox is most definitely in that list :/

 

[Fatmanonice]

But isn't it? I wouldn't call a character braindead if you weren't successful with them. For example, Brawl Metaknight is a prime example of this. Dsmash, shuttle loop, and tornado your way to victory is what a lot of people argued and, even after six years, that largely proved to be right. He had arguably the lowest skill ceiling Smash has ever seen and just about everyone had a pocket Metaknight because he was that good. SSB4 Ness isn't like that, in fact, I don't know of anyone with a pocket Ness. Tons of Mario, Falcon, and Sheik but most people who play him seriously typically use him as a main and nothing else. This is why I don't see Ness as braindead. He's not an ace in the hole and I don't think he inherently strongly counters anyone outside of the low tiers. He's solid but not truly pick up and win.

 

[C0rvus]

I guess we both have notions of the gravity of the word braindead. You're saying in order to be braindead, a character more or less has to be a free ride to the top. I think that's a bit extreme. I also think it's a silly word to try and apply to top level play. It's like an oxy-moron. You cannot be braindead and participate in top level. Maybe the way I see it is from the perspective of the player thinking (or not thinking, I guess).

Meh, it's a scrubby term anyway.

 

[FallenHero]

I guess we both have notions of the gravity of the word braindead. You're saying in order to be braindead, a character more or less has to be a free ride to the top. I think that's a bit extreme. I also think it's a silly word to try and apply to top level play. It's like an oxy-moron. You cannot be braindead and participate in top level. Maybe the way I see it is from the perspective of the player thinking (or not thinking, I guess).

Meh, it's a scrubby term anyway.

IMO brain-dead is not a scrubby term outside of top level play. Sure, against a player who is really good at the game it won't be so easy to win with these "brain-dead" characters, but for the players who mostly play on For Glory that don't have much experience playing in tournaments I would say it is a fair thing to say about certain characters. A player who doesn't constantly study MUs and practice might have trouble dealing with characters like Mario or Ness (IMO it is kind of fair to call Ness at least a little bit brain-dead, and no just because I say this it doesn't mean I get my ass kicked by these characters). Does them not studying MUs or practicing against any specific character make them a scrub? No. I don't really like it at times when this term is thrown out there, but in certain contexts I would agree. One could even say that in 4-8 player FFAs a character like Ganon is brain-dead and it is kinda true in that context. I also never really liked the term "scrub" either, but sometimes I don't when people use the term correctly. A lot of these characters the people call "brain-dead" are played by most in a very flowchart-y way, and playing that way is very effective in a specific level of play.

 

[Yikarur]

But isn't it? I wouldn't call a character braindead if you weren't successful with them. For example, Brawl Metaknight is a prime example of this. Dsmash, shuttle loop, and tornado your way to victory is what a lot of people argued and, even after six years, that largely proved to be right. He had arguably the lowest skill ceiling Smash has ever seen and just about everyone had a pocket Metaknight because he was that good. SSB4 Ness isn't like that, in fact, I don't know of anyone with a pocket Ness. Tons of Mario, Falcon, and Sheik but most people who play him seriously typically use him as a main and nothing else. This is why I don't see Ness as braindead. He's not an ace in the hole and I don't think he inherently strongly counters anyone outside of the low tiers. He's solid but not truly pick up and win.

Meta Knight was still one of the most skill based characters. While his base tools where the best, the character had an extremely high skill ceiling. So you're wrong with that statement.
Pre-Patch Diddy Kong is probably the character with the lowest skill ceiling and easiest to pick up out of any fighting game ever.

 

[Sonicninja115]

Wouldn't it be better to play a character that requires less thought? I.E. brain dead? This should allow the player to spend more time reading and adapting to your opponent, and not have to think about pulling off any ridiculously technical combos.

 

[Fatmanonice]

But Brawl Metaknight had more than just base tools, the character had pretty much everything going for him. Five jumps, five largely safe recovery options in a game where most characters had one, more ledge stall, edge guard, and edge hog options of any character in the game, reliable shield pokes, almost no landing lag for his aerials, incredibly speedy, insane priority, the most number of reliable kill options of any character, a tornado that could cancel out most of the attacks in the game, the ability to kill off the top at low percentages, a match up spread with no bad match ups and the ability to shut down a good portion of the cast, etc. This is why I looked at people incredulously when they suggested this in the past. Brawl Diddy, Wario, and the Ice Climbers were most complicated just to name a few. If was Metaknight was difficult, I doubt seeing Metaknights consistently taking top 8 spots at big tournaments would have been a thing.

 

[KeithTheGeek]

Wouldn't it be better to play a character that requires less thought? I.E. brain dead? This should allow the player to spend more time reading and adapting to your opponent, and not have to think about pulling off any ridiculously technical combos.

Different game and all, but Melee is a thing. Spacies give players extremely high reward for playing rather technically demanding characters. If the reward was high enough once the character is optimized, people would be turning to that character. The reason you don't see more Greninja and Lucas, IMO, is that it's simply more rewarding to play Sheik or ZSS...these characters get equal or greater reward with a lower tech skill barrier. They're also generally more demanding than characters like Mario, Falcon, or Ness.

I could be wrong, but that's my general thoughts and observations on the matter.

 

[Emblem Lord]

FF Uairs aren't exactly hard to pull off. You short hop, Uair and FF. Sometimes varying the order of the latter two commands. Hardly turns Ness into Melee Fox.

I'm being intentionally blaze to make a point. Ness is not a hard character to use and nothing he does is particularly advanced. I actually think there's an argument for him being the easiest character in the game now, as of the Luigi nerfs. Rack up damage with throw combos/PK fire, Bthrow for the kill, rinse and repeat. Ness has never been easier.

This is not a bad thing. "Braindead" has all these negative connotations which cause people to outlandishly defend their top tier main and claim that they take all sorts of skillful play when they really don't (frankly I'm looking at you, ZSS mains). When in reality, "braindead" is simply a term that refers to the ease of a certain character's effective playstyle compared to another, and shouldn't be something that other players get **** for (anyone who does give them **** is, in all honesty, probably just salty about losing to their character).

Essentially I'm saying "braindead" is not a bad thing. Characters being easy is a part of the game, particulary a game like Smash which is intentionally designed to be accessible for all skill levels, and characters remaining easy at higher skill levels is hardly surprising. The only time a "braindead" character becomes a problem is when they're inherently overpowered at the same time, as in the case of pre-patch Diddy or Luigi.

Incidentally I think Emblem Lord's list of characters that require "above average skill" was pretty good, though I'd swap Sheik, Ryu and Robin (none of whom are hard at all; I'll shoot the first person who says "SF inputs") for Little Mac and Zelda, both of whom do require a lot of skill which isn't simply rooted in them being bad characters.

Said it before and I will say it again.

Ryus depth doesnt have jack **** to do with inputs.

Ryus gameplay is based on counter poking and counter play. That means literally allowing your opponent to choose an option or a space where they would thrive and beating them in it or that situation.

This is the very pinnacle of play that everyone strives for but for Ryu it is a must and something that he must do even at mid level play. There are no simple brickwalls and hey lemme just rely on this till I figure something out vs this opponent.

He needs to know which option to choose in any given scenario and how his hitboxes interact and the spacing he needs and with his aerial deceleration, its not a simple task.

Zelda plays the same vs everyone generally. Ryu...every match is different.

Play him and you will get it.

 

[thehard]

Seems like Cloud can be played really dynamically. I'm watching a RHS stream and the difference between Nairo's and Tweek's Cloud is immediately noticeable. Maybe it's just because they were sandbagging, but it's obvious he has many options.

Full-hop d-air is underrated. It lasts a crazy long time, covers multiple ledge options, and the late hit seems to confirm into a lot of stuff including Finishing Touch.

 

[PK Gaming]

Speaking of Sonic matchups, Robin versus Sonic is actually pretty good for Robin now

(/sarcasm)

But for real Smash God is a solid Robin player. And it looks more and more people are playing this character now.

 

[Luco]

That's not the point I was trying to make. I didn't say it was hard to do, I'm saying that low level Ness players rarely do it. It's just something a lot of them don't think about when playing as Ness.



I strongly disagree especially given how some of his weaknesses are more prominent than a good number of the high tiers. His recovery still isn't that safe and pretty vulnerable against grab release options near the edge and ledge trumps thanks to his weird jump. Aside from his bthrow and uair, his kill options aren't that reliable and it's very easy to catch on to Ness players who try to be too much of a grabby Sam. Also, Rosalina vs Ness is probably one of the biggest blow out match up in the high tiers and I'd argue that Mario, Villager, ZSS, and Sheik have good tools against him too.

Pretty sure Mario mains and Ness mains agree it's slightly in Ness' favour. We also do really well against ZSS afaik. IMO these MUs plus Fox, Diddy and arguably Pika are what keep this character relevant. I'd also argue from my experiences with Villyness that Ness vs Villager is actually pretty even, but it's been a while since we've played so yeah.

I'd also argue Ness DJ is incredible and is one of the reasons his recovery is overstated as a weakness (anyone who tries to compare Ness to LM or Cloud without LB is terribly mis-guided). I could have mis-understood what you meant about his recovery though.

 

[Browny]

Said it before and I will say it again.

Ryus depth doesnt have jack **** to do with inputs.

Ryus gameplay is based on counter poking and counter play. That means literally allowing your opponent to choose an option or a space where they would thrive and beating them in it or that situation.

This is the very pinnacle of play that everyone strives for but for Ryu it is a must and something that he must do even at mid level play. There are no simple brickwalls and hey lemme just rely on this till I figure something out vs this opponent.

He needs to know which option to choose in any given scenario and how his hitboxes interact and the spacing he needs and with his aerial deceleration, its not a simple task.

Zelda plays the same vs everyone generally. Ryu...every match is different.

Play him and you will get it.

That isnt unique to Ryu, every character in all smash games has to do this.

Thats just like when Marth players would be like 'Oh marth is so difficult to play because he needs good spacing'. No, everyone needs good spacing. No character in smash wins for free when their spacing is terrible. Marth just gets a higher reward for spacing, that makes absolutely NO DIFFERENCE to the difficulty in achieving said spacing.

I hardly call floating around with ryus fair and nair while walking forward with utilt 'counter poking'

"He needs to know which option to choose in any given scenario and how his hitboxes interact and the spacing he needs and with his aerial deceleration, its not a simple task."

Right, give me an example of a character that can win in smash that doesnt choose the right options with improper hitbox interaction and spacing.

I dont think Ryu is deep, he's just difficult because his approaches are linear and predictable, the skill is doing it so its unpunishable and maximising any hit you get.

 

[FallenHero]

That isnt unique to Ryu, every character in all smash games has to do this.

Thats just like when Marth players would be like 'Oh marth is so difficult to play because he needs good spacing'. No, everyone needs good spacing. No character in smash wins for free when their spacing is terrible. Marth just gets a higher reward for spacing, that makes absolutely NO DIFFERENCE to the difficulty in achieving said spacing.

I hardly call floating around with ryus fair and nair while walking forward with utilt 'counter poking'

"He needs to know which option to choose in any given scenario and how his hitboxes interact and the spacing he needs and with his aerial deceleration, its not a simple task."

Right, give me an example of a character that can win in smash that doesnt choose the right options with improper hitbox interaction and spacing.

I dont think Ryu is deep, he's just difficult because his approaches are linear and predictable, the skill is doing it so its unpunishable and maximising any hit you get.

I agree with you to an extent about the thing you said about Marth and spacing, but lets not deny that it is more important to have good spacing with Marth than almost every other character, especially in this game where his aerials are very punishable if not spaced properly and there is no L-canceling. Ryu's footsies and Focus Attack/FADC are two things I can think of that make him a deep character. You specifically talking about Marth and Ryu, both characters that Emblem Lord uses (or at least used to use Marth. Not sure if he dropped him) and saying that they are not that hard just sounds like you are trying to passive aggressively tell him that he isn't good to me. I agree that Marth and Ryu are not that hard to use, but don't try to deny that spacing with Marth is more important with him than most and that Ryu is a deep and technical character.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Browny no disrespect but.....

you are the same guy that said ryu was bottom tier when he dropped and could not understand why his ability to hit confirm into a kill made him guaranteed high tier at worst.

so..im just going to keep ignoring you.

Im sure you understand.

also you have proven yourself to be a hater of any char I touch. everyone in this thread can vouch for that lolol.

 

[Browny]

Soz I just dont agree that a character with such ridiculously powerful options like Ryu that beat out almost every attack in the game, classifies as deep.

Ryu needs to choose the right options, just like every character in the history of smash does.

What do you define as 'depth'?

I for example believe that difficulty in choosing the right option doesnt make a character deep. Having low range or highly punishable attacks which require precision isnt depth, its difficulty and a bad trait. Luckily for Ryu when he does land those moves its just does obscene damage or KO early.

I define a 'deep' character as one that has a myriad of options at any given time that arent held back by some technical limitations but require very good understanding of %'s and spacing in order to get the biggest combos and KO set ups. They can be good or bad characters. I think Yoshi has a lot of depth with such a variety of approach and read-based KO set ups that you absolutely can not get for free, only fair spacing on shield is easy. WFT is another deep character with similar very unorthodox KO set ups and weird ways to approach.

This is of course, in comparison to spacing fair/nair on shield all day then running up to grab.

Emblem Lord read my sig, thx

 

[Y2Kay]

Browny no disrespect but.....

you are the same guy that said ryu was bottom tier when he dropped and could not understand why his ability to hit confirm into a kill made him guaranteed high tier at worst.

so..im just going to keep ignoring you.

Im sure you understand.

also you have proven yourself to be a hater of any char I touch. everyone in this thread can vouch for that lolol.

Must you do this with everyone you disagree with?

I swear this comments gives me bad flashbacks about the end of the old thread........

 

[Emblem Lord]

nah chainz. its not even like that. I have shown constantly i have a pretty open mind about every character. i dont let my personal opinion of a char influence my thought process. Browny has shown the opposite. He has extreme bias. Which is fine. I just choose not to indulge it.

 

[Patriot Duck]

Well Tweek just beat Nairo with Cloud at Smash 4-Ever 32. This is certainly notable; Cloud seems to have gotten decent results since his release.

Nairo should have stayed Dark Pit though.

 

[Y2Kay]

nah chainz. its not even like that. I have shown constantly i have a pretty open mind about every character. i dont let my personal opinion of a char influence my thought process. Browny has shown the opposite. He has extreme bias. Which is fine. I just choose not to indulge it.

That's cool, I just wish you didn't announce to everyone that you where gonna ignore Browny. That's how you start stuff. At that point, you probably shouldn't post at all

But Browny seems to mutually ignore you, so the conflict neutralized itself then.

 

[Emblem Lord]

hmmm?

You dont annoy me. You amuse me.

Also I have refuted you with alot of evidence in the past. It gets old.

I define depth as the amount of yomi or thought process that goes on when I am playing a character. The interplay between my options and my opponents. Ryu has plenty of that just because of how he is designed. To say he can just fair all day and be rewarded is just wrong. You are thinking of Sheik. He def cant nair all day because thats unsafe as hell and the hitbox is very close to his body.

Ryu's limitations in tandem with all his options create a unique and interesting character. To deny that means you are holding your head below the sand.

 

[Blobface]

A character's difficulty is subjective and intrinsically prone to main bias, not necessarily because of evil bad person self pity but out of simply having a deeper understanding of your own character. Similarly, you're more likely to perceive other characters as "braindead" since you don't understand them as well.

Put simply: this discussion isn't and will not go anywhere, ever.

So, edgeguarding vs ledge option coverage.

Personally, for most characters, I don't think either is strictly optimal. I feel it really depends on where the person is offstage and what %s both characters are at. If you're on a fresh stock and your opponent is at 130+%, you're better off just hanging back and not risking your stock, unless their recovery options are severely limited already for one reason or another. If the situation is reversed however, and you're at high % and your opponent is nice and healthy but offstage, you're better of risking it hoping for an early kill, especially if its your last stock.

 

[Djmarcus44]

A character's difficulty is subjective and intrinsically prone to main bias, not necessarily because of evil bad person self pity but out of simply having a deeper understanding of your own character. Similarly, you're more likely to perceive other characters as "braindead" since you don't understand them as well.

Put simply: this discussion isn't and will not go anywhere, ever.

So, edgeguarding vs ledge option coverage.

Personally, for most characters, I don't think either is strictly optimal. I feel it really depends on where the person is offstage and what %s both characters are at. If you're on a fresh stock and your opponent is at 130+%, you're better off just hanging back and not risking your stock, unless their recovery options are severely limited already for one reason or another. If the situation is reversed however, and you're at high % and your opponent is nice and healthy but offstage, you're better of risking it hoping for an early kill, especially if its your last stock.

For mii gunner, a character with great ledge guarding options and a bad dair, ledge guarding is the better and safer option in most cases. In fact, using gunner's great ledge guarding options (flame pillar for 1111 and grenade and missile for 3312) can lead to a kill pretty quickly (flame pillar can follow up into dair and kill around 50 and grenade can kill pretty early offstage).

 

[Fatmanonice]

*audibly groans*

Can this thread go a week without someone getting into a spat with Emblem Lord? All I can do is just say is "knock it off" because this issue has been brought up to us numerous times but it gets casually shrugged off each time. I could practically sync my watch to these back and forths at this point but, oh well... Just take it to PMs if the argument is so damn important...

 

[FallofBrawl]

Anyways, Tweek's Cloud has beaten Nairo's ZSS despite losing the first set of GFs to his Dark Pit. Say what you will about the unfamiliarity of the Cloud MU, you cannot ignore the waves this character has been making as of late.

 

[Baby_Sneak]

[

Anyways, Tweek's Cloud has beaten Nairo's ZSS despite losing the first set of GFs to his Dark Pit. Say what you will about the unfamiliarity of the Cloud MU, you cannot ignore the waves this character has been making as of late.

The degree of the MU inexperience should be the point viewed the most critical here. Nairo is obviously amazing, but people get caught off guard plenty of times, and here, it shows just how much MU inexperience can carry a person.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Anyways, Tweek's Cloud has beaten Nairo's ZSS despite losing the first set of GFs to his Dark Pit. Say what you will about the unfamiliarity of the Cloud MU, you cannot ignore the waves this character has been making as of late.

Mewtwo got 2nd place in a tournament with well over 100 people during his first month.

Pretty good rule of thumb with brand new characters: first full month is completely irrelevant. Arguably first 6-8 weeks. It takes time for people to figure out how to fight against a character with your main: longer than it does to pick up a few tricks with a character.

If Cloud is still pulling these kind of results by the time Corrin and Bayonetta hit, then we can talk about them making waves. Until then: irrelevant.

 

[FallofBrawl]

[

The degree of the MU inexperience should be the point viewed the most critical here. Nairo is obviously amazing, but people get caught off guard plenty of times, and here, it shows just how much MU inexperience can carry a person.

I mean Nairo was exploiting Cloud's weaknesses with Dark Pit, he knows what to capitalize on but it seemed like he couldn't translate that into the toolkit of ZSS.

Mewtwo got 2nd place in a tournament with well over 100 people during his first month.

Pretty good rule of thumb with brand new characters: first full month is completely irrelevant. Arguably first 6-8 weeks. It takes time for people to figure out how to fight against a character with your main: longer than it does to pick up a few tricks with a character.

If Cloud is still pulling these kind of results by the time Corrin and Bayonetta hit, then we can talk about them making waves. Until then: irrelevant.

This is a competitive impressions thread, Nairo, undisputed number 2 player, lost his first tourney since MLG. How is it irrelevant and why should we not examine and talk about what happened in the matches?