Official Character Competitive Impressions - Tourneys, Tiers, Theories, Tactics

[Radical Larry]

I don't know that I'd necessarily consider Little Mac braindead, but I will say that he's the worst piece of game design I've ever seen in Smash.

Strong or weak, Mac as he is now is just plain boring.

Half of it is his KO punch and how it affects any match ups he has. The other half is that he only gets to really play the neutral game; his advantaged state is nil since he's always knocking people away with tilts and smashes, and his disadvantage comes down to well timed side Bs and guessing games with his counter.

You've been playing too much For Glory.

In terms of game design, Little Mac is the character who stays truest to his universe and fighting style. He's meant to be a realistic character put into Smash Bros., basically, so of course he's going to have some flaws, but these flaws were intention by design.

Strong or weak, Mac is actually fun to watch. What you say about half of it being his KO Punch is not necessarily true. I know this for a fact because I can score KOs more efficiently without it. But if you know Little Mac's Sliding KO Punch tech, that thing becomes a quick kill option since it's doubling the distance and allowing Mac to perform KO Punch without having to halt his run.

As for his Smashes and tilts, F-Tilt is an amazing attack against even disjoint characters and it's a great pivot attack. It's a very reliable move, on some characters it will set up into a Dash Attack and it's also a good edge-guarding move on opponents who try getting up through the ledge. It's better as a retreating move or a shield pressuring move that can link into DF-Smash. Speaking of, his DF-Smash, which is his Body Blow, is a very amazing move to break shields or put intense pressure on it; it's a very damage-heavy move and it's relatively fast and sometimes safe on shield.

He might rely heavily on his Smashes, but remember that he has almost no air game. His D-Smash is his best move against opponents who are trying to recover (unless the opponent is like, Meta Knight, because any of Mac's Smashes become good against that recovery hog), his DF-Smash is very powerful and may even link into a killing U-Smash, and his U-Smash is just there to be powerful.

Little Mac might be somewhat easy to play, but when you get to his intricacies like his D-Tilt combos, D-Throw > U-Spec, F-Throw follow ups, semi-spiking F-Air and footstools, it gets less and less brain dead as the character goes up and on and about. Remember his Sliding KO Punch? That thing is a very frame-strict move akin to the Jump Cancel, but unlike the Jump Cancel, there are one of two outcomes. You manage to slide twice as far as you normally would and would cancel out your Dash, or you accidentally turn around or jump too high. You have to be frame perfect on that or you're going to have a bad time.

The more and more it's explained, the more and more intricate the character becomes.

 

[Teshie U]

Not alot of fun to be had playing vs a Little Mac. You are both looking for a very small subset of options and setups over and over (even for this game) and things can turn ugly very quickly once the actual fighting actually occurs.

Definitely quite a bit of fun for a spectator at times though.

 

[Kofu]

I don't know that I'd necessarily consider Little Mac braindead, but I will say that he's the worst piece of game design I've ever seen in Smash.

Strong or weak, Mac as he is now is just plain boring.

Half of it is his KO punch and how it affects any match ups he has. The other half is that he only gets to really play the neutral game; his advantaged state is nil since he's always knocking people away with tilts and smashes, and his disadvantage comes down to well timed side Bs and guessing games with his counter.

Hmm, I rather disagree. He's among the best when it comes to ground footsies (possibly the best, but I am hesitant to say that partially because I'm not great at the concept and also because it feels like disjoints are a bit of a problem). His tilts would be absurd on most other characters and are only partially nullified because his aerial followups to UTilt and DTilt are typically poor (doesn't stop those tilts from being strong tools in his hands). His jab hits on frame 1 and can lead into followups when used as a three-hit combo and can't be canceled by clanking (neither can his tilts, as an aside) which makes it great for beating out weak approaches. Rising Uppercut is frame 1 invincible on the ground and in the air, which makes it great for interrupting combos. It also kills rather nicely.

His Smashes are great. FSmash is three long-distance attacks in one: a horizontal launcher, a vertical launcher, and a shield breaker which also functions as a tech chase as high percents. USmash is pretty typically for an USmash but has surprising vertical reach. DSmash is great for getting characters offstage at a bad angle for recovery and is a good option for nabbing that brief moment of vulnerability when someone grabs the ledge. I think it's unfortunate that their super armor is and can be abused (particularly online) but I personally feel like they act more like counters than Slip Counter does.

His aerials aren't unusable for the most part. All but UAir SHAC. I don't remember the numbers but, while NAir's hitstun is so low that many characters can counterattack, it's still a frame 2 move with an absurdly short duration that can be used to take the opponent with you or chain into Rising Uppercut (I'm guessing on that one but I figure it's possible?). FAir and BAir both send the opponent at a shallow angle and can catch people off-guard. His UAir is... an UAir but with bad range (probably the main move I'd buff tbh). DAir is a weak meteor and continues locks.

The only real weakness in his ground game is his grab game, with a short range and mostly mediocre throws (I imagine it's hard to hold onto something with boxing gloves on). It's serviceable nonetheless. His pummel is fast and FThrow and UThrow can both be used for positioning. DThrow combos (I believe it semi-reliably combos into Rising Uppercut at kill percents) and BThrow can kill at the ledge.

Neutral special is mostly bad outside of KO Punch but at least is his best shield break followup option. Jolt Haymaker can act as an ace against a lot of projectiles and is a decent way to end low-percent strings. Slip Counter acts as an occasional aid to recovery (if it isn't baited) and an option against projectiles.

I think what fascinates me most about Mac as a character is that his disadvantage is so unforgiving against a good player that one mistake can mean death. But his neutral is so strong as his moves so powerful that he can turn a match quickly, with or without KO punch. In a lot of ways he feels like a character with strong fundamentals in his moves yet they require a sharp mind and reflexes to get the most mileage. Tagging Thinkaman because he knows far more about the character than I do.

Not alot of fun to be had playing vs a Little Mac. You are both looking for a very small subset of options and setups over and over (even for this game) and things can turn ugly very quickly once the actual fighting actually occurs.

Definitely quite a bit of fun for a spectator at times though.

Okay, this I can more or less agree with. Mac can be nerve-wracking to fight if you know you're against a good one. I'm somewhat fond of Mac dittos though since they tend to be high energy, heh.

 

[SaltyKracka]

That's the thing, though. You're talking about Mac being strong in the neutral, and I agree. He is strong in the neutral. But the neutral is almost literally the whole of Mac's game, and KO punch is just...

It turns the entire character from "He's strong in the neutral, but if you can get him offstage he's easy to gimp" to "He's strong in the neutral, also you'd better not hit him too much or else he'll gain access to an option so powerful it warps the entire match around itself, so better just gimp him as fast and as often as possible."

It is not only bad design, but its presence and its power prevents Mac from having a well-rounded, not one dimensional design.

 

[Nobie]

I think it's a bit limited to define advantage by how well your character combos or juggles. Obviously those are huge components, but simply having your opponent's back to the ledge is an advantageous state (unless maybe if you're fighting Ness). Being cornered by Little Mac is a SCARY thing, so I think saying that he's ONLY about the neutral is a bit mistaken.

I don't believe fighting Little Mac revolves around the KO punch though it is a factor, but rather revolves around controlling the stage. Yes, you can get those back throw gimps, but what's even more important is being able to push him away and take space away from him. Armored smashes can be a pain (especially online), and there are aspects that seem unfair, but I think Little Mac's extreme ground-focused style is a success, if not in terms of tournament wins then in terms of character feel.

Last point, about the whole braindead character thing: I find Mewtwo, especially post-buff to be in an interesting place. I think he requires a good sense of spacing to play, which I gradually try to work on, and in order to use him you have to take advantage of his arsenal at all times. Down tilt's a good move, but you can't just rely on it all the time, and having to compensate for a lack of good aerial weaving with smart use of your moves is pretty cool. At the same time, I am aware that Mewtwo's air dodge might be the most spammable air dodge in the game, and that post-patch those tail attacks in the air are ridiculously good. I can throw them out in the air while retreating, and there's a good chance the opponent won't be able to punish them, or will get hit by something in the process. Mewtwo if properly played does have a more overwhelming style and presence now, but it's of course kept in check by the light weight, glass cannon aspect.

Which is to say, Mewtwo might be easier to autopilot now, but if you're caught autopiloting for too long against a good player, you're probably dead, and that forces you to put your mind into Mewtwo at all times.

 

[Kofu]

That's the thing, though. You're talking about Mac being strong in the neutral, and I agree. He is strong in the neutral. But the neutral is almost literally the whole of Mac's game, and KO punch is just...

It turns the entire character from "He's strong in the neutral, but if you can get him offstage he's easy to gimp" to "He's strong in the neutral, also you'd better not hit him too much or else he'll gain access to an option so powerful it warps the entire match around itself, so better just gimp him as fast and as often as possible."

It is not only bad design, but its presence and its power prevents Mac from having a well-rounded, not one dimensional design.

TBH I think gimping Mac would still be the main method of killing him even without KO Punch.

And, honestly? Maybe it's just me, but when I'm fighting Mac KO Punch is the last of my concerns until it comes up. I'm 10x more concerned about his excellent footsies, efficient ground speed, and just overall high KO power.

I speak as someone who only started to use the character at all because I thought Mac dittos would be amusing. I ended up finding his moveset highly interesting, and as a player who generally thrives on aerial combat and loves to gimp I found this highly unusual. Mac isn't my main, I'm probably a very average Mac player. But I suspect that most Little Mac players view KO Punch in a similar light. I'd rather satisfyingly connect it from a DTilt or on an opponent who foolishly tries to shield or counter it than just throw it out and hope it connects.

Is it degenerate? Probably. But no more than any other powerful, storable special. But I'd argue that it's among the weakest because it's so simple to cause Mac to lose it and he has to be engaging the opponent to even get it

 

[Teshie U]

Mac is like Metaknight in that , imo high or low skill aren't very fun to fight because you are challenged to essentially avoid the same situation repeatedly in neutral.

Even if you do outskill a Mac player, his superlative ground game (SArmor smashes, unclashable tilts and lightning speed jab) means close combat isn't a good idea. He is designed to power through attacks without having to consider what is being thrown at him, but grab range and grab reward is so low that its not enticing to use it. So naturally it just comes down to his opponent shielding everything and jumping around him.

I'd find him far more entertaining if they turned his Uair into a semi spike that says "get back down here and fight me" and gave him a low angle throw for tech chasing or killing. Honestly if you know you aren't good at jumping, why would you throw your opponent up instead of down?

 

[TriTails]

Eh, Mac's grab reward is fine. Fast pummels (That deal 2% IIRC) and throws do at least 7%, and that is U-throw, which can be followed up with Rising Uppercut for more damage and now they're in the air, great position advantage there.

His problem is his grab range. Fix that and you won't be feeling so safe in your shield anymore (Unless you slide around like me whenever Mac touches your shield, but that's another story).

I wouldn't say jumping around him is a good idea too. He has the 3rd fastest running speed and 8th fastest walking speed. Super armored smashes are pain in the a** to face against, especially when you're in the air. Unless you're saying 'jump into a platform' in which you would do good by camping him).

Just my two cents,

 

[Kofu]

Mac is like Metaknight in that , imo high or low skill aren't very fun to fight because you are challenged to essentially avoid the same situation repeatedly in neutral.

Even if you do outskill a Mac player, his superlative ground game (SArmor smashes, unclashable tilts and lightning speed jab) means close combat isn't a good idea. He is designed to power through attacks without having to consider what is being thrown at him, but grab range and grab reward is so low that its not enticing to use it. So naturally it just comes down to his opponent shielding everything and jumping around him.

I'd find him far more entertaining if they turned his Uair into a semi spike that says "get back down here and fight me" and gave him a low angle throw for tech chasing or killing. Honestly if you know you aren't good at jumping, why would you throw your opponent up instead of down?

So like...

Tipman Ganon UAir but the whole thing has that same angle?

I'm salivating.

 

[Teshie U]

TriTails As someone who actually tries to fight a little more than I have to, jumping "around" Mac is a better way to bait out a committed anti air I can punish, rather than trying to dash grab through that tyranny of horizontal footsies he has going on.

Kofu not quite so oppressive as Uair. Definitely weaker ofcourse. His Uair looks like he is grasping at something he can't quite reach, not swatting it away. I was thinking of something that would just gently drag someone down at an angle. Just barely strong enough to force them to tech after 100.

But obviously Mac wasn't designed for diversity.

 

[Luco]

How advanced is Ness? Is he just considered brain dead because people haven't labbed him enough?

Pretty brain dead.

Your major combo is pretty simple. You basically want to set up Grab->Dthrow->Fair->Fair->If possible SideSpecial->If possible UpSpecial(risky but fun). You can sometimes UAir instead of Fair but it wont combo into anything I don't think. PK Fire sets this combo up easily, and Ness' dash grab is satisfactory in other cases.

The first three to four steps are guaranteed at low percentages-mid percentages and are a great way to rack up damage. The last two steps don't always work but if you do it right, and they don't expect PK Thunder 2, you have yourself an easy stock in ~10 to 20 seconds. Otherwise this combo is just to get damage up there, and it's really easy to learn.

Eventually they get to a point where you can kill throw them. You do that.

The hardest things about Ness are his recovery, which you can't do much about, and some PKThunder 2 mind games that are risky but fun. His side tilt, dash and aerials are good enough at racking damage for the kill throw. He has other kill options they just aren't as reliable as Back Throw.

Just to compare him to Lucas, Ness' combos don't require you to follow DI as much, you have fewer options(especially recovery) but other than recovery they are better options. Lucas has multiple Dthrow combos at varying percents into varying aerials that require good spacing and knowledge. Ness doesn't really have that. Lucas has a fair number of mix ups while Ness would rather just go with what works. It's easy to get off to a 30% lead with Ness if you net a PK Fire or a grab, while Lucas can do the same but with more inputs/more difficulty, though the Lucas Nair buff may change that.

Pretty much. I hate to admit it, but my main isn't really much for your average zombie to hunger over - his combos are straightforward, sometimes he dashes forward before jumping to get a combo, other times he mixes it up and goes with Uair instead... Whopee?

Ness is so hearty though. His aerials cut it close on shield, neutral is really something you need to think about. Which reminds me, "braindead" is such a useless term - who cares if I don't need to muscle memory my combos like you? Does that mean I'm still not thinking? That I'm not playing the same bloody game of chess neutral that you are?? It's salt with no substance.

If Ness requires any particular brain stuff (which he does, every character has it in some form), it's stuff like his kill percents on Bthrow. Noa and I sat down over a few days and labbed Bthrow out almost entirely (there's a thread dedicated to it which I can link to you if you so desire... Actually here, it's really easily laid out and nice to look at: http://smashboards.com/threads/nesss-back-throw-and-ko-percents-the-thread.387966/). From doing all that testing on so many different characters in that diverse set of stage positions + rage testing, I more or less instinctively know when I'm killing someone with Bthrow. Sometimes I Bthrow out of habit (or for stage positioning) and I have a tendency to say "that'll kill" or "nah it won't kill". 95% of the time these days I'm correct. It's a MASSIVE advantage to have these percents burned into my brain, knowing the earliest kill I can ever get from Bthrow on an omega stage is at 62% with full rage on a Jiggs on the near edge of the stage and the latest anyone will ever live is 221% (that's Shield Shulk, realistically it's 182% which is Bowser on the far end of an omega stage with no rage)... If more people knew this kind of data for their characters, people would really begin to respect what they probably see now as really obvious moves.

Ness does have stuff like thunderbouncing but it's usually just a fancy name given to a relatively simple concept (double upB). Most of Ness' new tech right now is heart-based (how to improve PKT juggling, how to make recovery less of an issue using DJ and mixups, etc.)

Lucas is also relatievly simple to peeps like Ryu, although yeah he's certainly more technical than Ness and possibly even your average character, but eh it hasn't taken him very far of late (or ever), has it now?

 

[Yikarur]

From personal experience I don't see much differences between a low*, mid, and high level Ness. I think Ness is a character that plays very fundementally and it's very hard to detect the skilllevel differences between Ness players.
I think the difference between a mid-high level Ness and Top Level Ness is the neutral. I play incredibly intense neutrals against Top Ness'.
I can understand why people think Ness is braindead. But braindead is such a bad word. Every character is "braindead" until you reach a specific skill level.


*low level = I assume the player knows how to play his character at least

 

[Zannabluke]

who does bowser notably lose to? i'm not talking about 'hard-but-still-doable'' matchups but ones that require a guaranteed secondary (shiek is an obv answer)

 

[ParanoidDrone]

who does bowser notably lose to? i'm not talking about 'hard-but-still-doable'' matchups but ones that requires a guaranteed secondary (shiek is an obv answer)

ZSS, I think? She tends to murder heavies with Boost Kick.

 

[Nobie]

I have a question for the thread concerning Marth.

From the beginning of Smash 4, players have complained that Marth and Lucina don't get enough reward from grabs. "Where are the throw combos? Why can't throws combo?" they've complained, and it still persists over a year later. However, at this point, given multiple patches, that the developers have no intention of giving Marth and Lucina more damaging throws, or combo throws, or anything of the sort. My question is, why do you think the developers have conceived low-damage, high knockback throws as part of their design?

I have two theories. First, they want to prevent Marth from having throw combos no matter what, given his dominance in both Melee and Brawl. We've talked in this thread about having overpowered swordsmen can invalidate a lot of strategies, and this might just be a part of it.

Second, Marth was envisioned as a fencer, who elegantly spaces for maximum combat effectiveness. His style is meant to emphasize a solid but not overwhelming neutral game, and encouraging fishing for grabs or having a grab-based play style goes against that.

What do you think?

 

[Nidtendofreak]

who does bowser notably lose to? i'm not talking about 'hard-but-still-doable'' matchups but ones that requires a guaranteed secondary (shiek is an obv answer)

According to one post earlier in the thread by I think a Bowser main: Robin. Apparently Arc Fire just completely screws him over.

 

[meleebrawler]

I have a question for the thread concerning Marth.

From the beginning of Smash 4, players have complained that Marth and Lucina don't get enough reward from grabs. "Where are the throw combos? Why can't throws combo?" they've complained, and it still persists over a year later. However, at this point, given multiple patches, that the developers have no intention of giving Marth and Lucina more damaging throws, or combo throws, or anything of the sort. My question is, why do you think the developers have conceived low-damage, high knockback throws as part of their design?

I have two theories. First, they want to prevent Marth from having throw combos no matter what, given his dominance in both Melee and Brawl. We've talked in this thread about having overpowered swordsmen can invalidate a lot of strategies, and this might just be a part of it.

Second, Marth was envisioned as a fencer, who elegantly spaces for maximum combat effectiveness. His style is meant to emphasize a solid but not overwhelming neutral game, and encouraging fishing for grabs or having a grab-based play style goes against that.

What do you think?

Swordfighters in general have weaker throw games than brawlers, to place more emphasis on using their range to the fullest, Marth being the purest example. The ones with notable grabs (Ike, Link, Roy), either have them to compensate for lower frame data/mobility or in the case of Roy, to complement his close-range schtick.

Mewtwo's another character that uses his throws to complement his spacing rather than combo, with high damage to boot.

There are a lot of factors that seem to go into balancing grabs, like the ease of getting them or the strength of the character's other tools.

The heavyweights generally have strong grab games because they usually have some difficulty closing in. Dedede is unique compared to them in that he plays more like a swordfighter, but even he gets some low percent combos.

 

[Nobie]

Swordfighters in general have weaker throw games than brawlers, to place more emphasis on using their range to the fullest, Marth being the purest example. The ones with notable grabs (Ike, Link, Roy), either have them to compensate for lower frame data/mobility or in the case of Roy, to complement his close-range schtick.

Mewtwo's another character that uses his throws to complement his spacing rather than combo, with high damage to boot.

There are a lot of factors that seem to go into balancing grabs, like the ease of getting them or the strength of the character's other tools.

The heavyweights generally have strong grab games because they usually have some difficulty closing in. Dedede is unique compared to them in that he plays more like a swordfighter, but even he gets some low percent combos.

Now that you mention it, one thing I didn't account for is that Marth has a decent pummel. Getting in a few hits during the grab can make the reward from the throw itself not seem so low (aside from stage positioning).

 

[S_B]

who does bowser notably lose to? i'm not talking about 'hard-but-still-doable'' matchups but ones that require a guaranteed secondary (shiek is an obv answer)

Sheik, ZSS, Fox, Sonic, and Diddy.

Debatable on Fox and Diddy, but Sheik, ZSS, and Sonic are all reasons to pick up a secondary.

 

[meleebrawler]

Now that you mention it, one thing I didn't account for is that Marth has a decent pummel. Getting in a few hits during the grab can make the reward from the throw itself not seem so low (aside from stage positioning).

Lucario has an interesting dynamic with his grab game and aura. He gets combos with low aura, and when it gets higher he loses those combos but gains what is likely the best pummel in the game.

More comments on notable examples of grab design:

Characters with weaker grab games by design:

Little Mac's a boxer, of course, and grappling is illegal in the sport anyway. It happens but the refs usually break it up quickly. As for Ryu, he just follows the design of regular throws in Street Fighter, which don't combo into anything and just reposition.

Characters with weaker grab games due to ease of landing them:

These characters, whether due to outstanding mobility, speed or stage control, have relatively little trouble getting grabs, but their reward for doing so pales in comparison to more dedicated brawlers and/or have worse grabs to use in neutral. Yoshi in particular, in addition to fantastic air mobility has a command grab, making his normal grab even worse.

Other:

Samus is a master at pressuring shields, and one of the best at getting them to break. When she does land her grab as a mixup (akin to her alter-ego ZSS), her throws keep the enemy relatively close so that she can keep piling on the pressure, which is a stark contrast to Mewtwo. Meanwhile, the utility of Shulk's throws vary wildly depending on the art he's using, whether it's Speed/Buster for strings, Smash for kill throws or Jump to set up juggles.

 

[Smooth Criminal]

S_B

Is Bowser/Sonic really all that bad? I'd think Bowser would be at least be able to manage some semblance of (reactionary?) neutral against the character. Of course, I'm kinda-sorta thinking along the lines of Dedede here, where I at least had disjoints and projectile that I could make an incautious Sonic respect, but I would think Bowser isn't so far off with his frame data and stuff like Fortress. Obviously I don't see Bowser winning the MU, but I'm having a hard time seeing Sonic being bad to the point of switching off to a different character.

I'm curious.

Smooth Criminal

 

[meleebrawler]

S_B

Is Bowser/Sonic really all that bad? I'd think Bowser would be at least be able to manage some semblance of (reactionary?) neutral against the character. Of course, I'm kinda-sorta thinking along the lines of Dedede here, where I at least had disjoints and projectile that I could make an incautious Sonic respect, but I would think Bowser isn't so far off with his frame data and stuff like Fortress. Obviously I don't see Bowser winning the MU, but I'm having a hard time seeing Sonic being bad to the point of switching off to a different character.

I'm curious.

Smooth Criminal

You play Dedede, so you know what happens when you get a lead? That's what Sonic does to Bowser.

At least, that's what the consensus seems to be.

Although, it could also go the other way around if you ask me. He can definitely handle a Sonic that has or wants to attack.

 

[Smooth Criminal]

You play Dedede, so you know what happens when you get a lead? That's what Sonic does to Bowser.

At least, that's what the consensus seems to be.

True, and Sonic will do it a million times worse to you if he can (I know firsthand, from one of the campiest Sonics in all the ****ing land). But, I tried my best when it was feasible to not make his approaches before that point free.

Smooth Criminal

 

[Y2Kay]

well speak of the devil, this matchup got played out last night. Seagull was definitely in control, but Bowser was far from helpless

 

[Vyrnx]

well speak of the devil, this matchup got played out last night. Seagull was definitely in control, but Bowser was far from helpless

Damn. That guy has one nice hat.

To me it looks like Bowser is in fact way more competitive than pre patch. That MU doesn't look as bad now.

 

[Gamegenie222]

According to one post earlier in the thread by I think a Bowser main: Robin. Apparently Arc Fire just completely screws him over.

This is correct. Also all the fatties in general have this issue vs robin arc fire and arc thunder says no to getting in along with all of his Levin aerials which when spaced they are safe. When they get momentum going off of tech chases and edge guarding in which they get to play vs Robin.

 

[S_B]

S_B

Is Bowser/Sonic really all that bad? I'd think Bowser would be at least be able to manage some semblance of (reactionary?) neutral against the character. Of course, I'm kinda-sorta thinking along the lines of Dedede here, where I at least had disjoints and projectile that I could make an incautious Sonic respect, but I would think Bowser isn't so far off with his frame data and stuff like Fortress. Obviously I don't see Bowser winning the MU, but I'm having a hard time seeing Sonic being bad to the point of switching off to a different character.

I'm curious.

Smooth Criminal

Let me put it this way, up until the Shell Shock, LeTroof (one of the best Bowser mains in the world) was going to Mario as a secondary to fight Seagull Joe. The Sonic matchup is just that bad. :\

WITH the SS, I'm not so sure how it is now...

The matchup is basically Bowser sitting there trying to avoid all of the harassment from Sonic (spin dash in, springs bring dropped on him, etc.).

 

[Locke 06]

Lucario has an interesting dynamic with his grab game and aura. He gets combos with low aura, and when it gets higher he loses those combos but gains what is likely the best pummel in the game.

More comments on notable examples of grab design:

Characters with weaker grabs by design:

Little Mac's a boxer, of course, and grappling is illegal in the sport anyway. It happens but the refs usually break it up quickly. As for Ryu, he just follows the design of regular throws in Street Fighter, which don't combo into anything and just reposition.

Characters with weaker grabs due to ease of landing them:

These characters, whether due to outstanding mobility, speed or stage control, have relatively little trouble getting grabs, but their reward for doing so pales in comparison to more dedicated brawlers and/or have worse grabs to use in neutral. Yoshi in particular, in addition to fantastic air mobility has a command grab, making his normal grab even worse.

Other:

Samus is a master at pressuring shields, and one of the best at getting them to break. When she does land her grab as a mixup (akin to her alter-ego ZSS), her throws keep the enemy relatively close so that she can keep piling on the pressure, which is a stark contrast to Mewtwo. Meanwhile, the utility of Shulk's throws vary wildly depending on the art he's using, whether it's Speed/Buster for strings, Smash for kill throws or Jump to set up juggles.

You need to discriminate between grab and throw. Otherwise, your post is incredibly muddled with confusion.

Duck Hunt and Fox have very good grabs, but poor throws (although DH has decent throws imo). Villager has a poor grab but good throws (combo and kill throw).

Ryu's throws do a lot of damage and he has a very good Dash grab, but doesn't combo out of his throws (although they are good for trapping). Mac's grab is terribly slow with a terrible range.

 

[LancerStaff]

Swordfighters in general have weaker throw games than brawlers, to place more emphasis on using their range to the fullest, Marth being the purest example. The ones with notable grabs (Ike, Link, Roy), either have them to compensate for lower frame data/mobility or in the case of Roy, to complement his close-range schtick.

Kinda find Roy's grab game to be dubious at best. Standing grab is good of course, but his walk is meh, (and I'm not buying this "high walking acceleration" bit either,) dash grab is bad, and his throw combos are all restricted to lower percents and are all DI'd the same way. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think he has a solid way to kill from a grab either. Yeah, he gets quite a bit of damage from 'em when they work, but that's just his design.

And then we have Pit (we all knew this was coming) who has a strong grab and throw game without any glaring weaknesses, which is to say it's not to make up for poor movement or frame data. Dunno why you would choose to leave him out...

 

[Radical Larry]

You need to discriminate between grab and throw. Otherwise, your post is incredibly muddled with confusion.

Duck Hunt and Fox have very good grabs, but poor throws (although DH has decent throws imo). Villager has a poor grab but good throws (combo and kill throw).

Ryu's throws do a lot of damage and he has a very good Dash grab, but doesn't combo out of his throws (although they are good for trapping). Mac's grab is terribly slow with a terrible range.

Hi, Ryu's D-Throw > U-Air > U-Air would like to speak to you.

 

[Locke 06]

Hi, Ryu's D-Throw > U-Air > U-Air would like to speak to you.

It's been a while since I've played Ryu seriously, but I'm pretty sure that's not a real thing / I'm trying it right now and it's not.

Even vs Lucina/Marth, who get messed up by weight dependent throws.

And even if it is, it's only at 0. Fox has stuff at 0 too.

Edit: okay, comboing around 20. Probably DI'able

Edit2: 90% sure DI'able.

 

[EpicSonicLatios]

Kinda find Roy's grab game to be dubious at best. Standing grab is good of course, but his walk is meh, (and I'm not buying this "high walking acceleration" bit either,) dash grab is bad, and his throw combos are all restricted to lower percents and are all DI'd the same way. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think he has a solid way to kill from a grab either. Yeah, he gets quite a bit of damage from 'em when they work, but that's just his design.

And then we have Pit (we all knew this was coming) who has a strong grab and throw game without any glaring weaknesses, which is to say it's not to make up for poor movement or frame data. Dunno why you would choose to leave him out...

About the walking acceleration, where are people even getting this walk acceleration data? I can't find anything about it anywhere. What evidence do people have that Roy has good walk acceleration? I'm skeptical that anyone can make such a claim about his walk speed, because I don't see how his walk acceleration could be determined.

 

[Blobface]

I feel like Cloud's recovery will always hold him back competitively purely on the basis of consistency. It's hard to do well consistently when you can die from 2-3 hits, and that can hurt over an entire tourney's worth of matches. I don't think he can't place well per se, but I think it'll be a lot harder for him than his abilities might suggest.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Sheik, ZSS, Fox, Sonic, and Diddy.

Debatable on Fox and Diddy, but Sheik, ZSS, and Sonic are all reasons to pick up a secondary.

I don't know how far you're willing to push your definition of "loses notably to" but Fox never destroyed Bowser and he certainly doesn't destroy him now. The buffs Bowser got probably don't even make that much of a difference in this specific matchup tbh. I think it's like +1 for Fox or so, it's not a significant advantage for him.

The reason why Fox destroys the other fatties isn't because they're big fat combo fodder but because the likes of DK and DDD don't have much of a keepaway game in close range. Fox will just run circles around them all day ... Bowser in contrast has a pretty good jab and a nice OoS option in upB so he can actually fight back.

 

[S_B]

I don't know how far you're willing to push your definition of "loses notably to" but Fox never destroyed Bowser and he certainly doesn't destroy him now. The buffs Bowser got probably don't even make that much of a difference in this specific matchup tbh. I think it's like +1 for Fox or so, it's not a significant advantage for him.

The reason why Fox destroys the other fatties isn't because they're big fat combo fodder but because the likes of DK and DDD don't have much of a keepaway game in close range. Fox will just run circles around them all day ... Bowser in contrast has a pretty good jab and a nice OoS option in upB so he can actually fight back.

Hmm, while I've never had a huge problem with Foxes personally, I thought I remembered hearing that Bowser had huge problems with them but I could be mistaken.

Or maybe the concept of a Smash game where Bowser doesn't get destroyed by space animals is just too far out there for me to believe it...

 

[Routa]

And then we have Pit (we all knew this was coming) who has a strong grab and throw game without any glaring weaknesses, which is to say it's not to make up for poor movement or frame data. Dunno why you would choose to leave him out...

Pit(s) aren't usually considered to be "pure Swordfighters". Other not "pure swordfighters" are Mii, MK, Robin, Link(s) and Roy.

 

[JesterJaded]

Lucas is also relatievly simple to peeps like Ryu, although yeah he's certainly more technical than Ness and possibly even your average character, but eh it hasn't taken him very far of late (or ever), has it now?

Compared to Ryu, yeah, Lucas isn't particularly complicated, but in his defense Lucas isn't the sort of character that you can just pick up and expect to start making waves like other characters who don't require much knowledge to close a stock; it takes a lot of knowledge and practice to be a good Lucas. Practice with Zair / PK Fire spacing, practice with comboing into Dtilt from Zair, practice with Dtilt > grab confirm, practice with Zair > lock, practice with footstools, etc. and being able to follow DI for a good portion of his combos.

I feel like Lucas is generally an underappreciated character, especially since he was so drastically overshadowed by Roy and Ryu and always being compared to Ness when the two characters have very different play styles. He's a decent character with a lot of reward if you know how to get it. I wouldn't rank him within the top 20 without the results to back it up, but that grab is certainly something I'd fear if I'm going against a skilled Lucas in tournament.

As for representation in the competitive community, it's disappointing that there aren't very many Lucas mains out there and even fewer with decent results, but Pink Fresh has been showing some neat stuff and Nakat has him in his arsenal (I'm on the fence about how he utilizes him though.)

 

[Radical Larry]

It's been a while since I've played Ryu seriously, but I'm pretty sure that's not a real thing / I'm trying it right now and it's not.

Even vs Lucina/Marth, who get messed up by weight dependent throws.

And even if it is, it's only at 0. Fox has stuff at 0 too.

Edit: okay, comboing around 20. Probably DI'able

Edit2: 90% sure DI'able.

It's a timing thing, very hard to do. Your opponent can DI, but if you have proper timing, you can get to them quick with it. You can also Full Hop N-Air or time a perfect F-Air against them.

 

[Fatmanonice]

From personal experience I don't see much differences between a low*, mid, and high level Ness. I think Ness is a character that plays very fundementally and it's very hard to detect the skilllevel differences between Ness players.
I think the difference between a mid-high level Ness and Top Level Ness is the neutral. I play incredibly intense neutrals against Top Ness'.
I can understand why people think Ness is braindead. But braindead is such a bad word. Every character is "braindead" until you reach a specific skill level.


*low level = I assume the player knows how to play his character at least

I really don't like this phrase because I think it's become way overused. Aside from Pikachu, and Ryu, nearly all the top/high tier characters have been accused of being this. Yes, characters like Falcon and Mario are easy to use but that doesn't mean they don't have their weaknesses and variances of playstyles between players.

As for Ness, I feel that there are some differences between skill levels. Set ups with PKT and PKT2 are a big difference, especially with wall bounces, fake outs into early kills, and ledge cancels. Actually consistently being able to land PK fire in the air is another one. Follow ups out of dtilt trips/jab locks and being able to consistently edgeguard with dsmash are some more. Fast falled uairs are also something else you rarely see from low level players.

 

[bc1910]

FF Uairs aren't exactly hard to pull off. You short hop, Uair and FF. Sometimes varying the order of the latter two commands. Hardly turns Ness into Melee Fox.

I'm being intentionally blaze to make a point. Ness is not a hard character to use and nothing he does is particularly advanced. I actually think there's an argument for him being the easiest character in the game now, as of the Luigi nerfs. Rack up damage with throw combos/PK fire, Bthrow for the kill, rinse and repeat. Ness has never been easier.

This is not a bad thing. "Braindead" has all these negative connotations which cause people to outlandishly defend their top tier main and claim that they take all sorts of skillful play when they really don't (frankly I'm looking at you, ZSS mains). When in reality, "braindead" is simply a term that refers to the ease of a certain character's effective playstyle compared to another, and shouldn't be something that other players get **** for (anyone who does give them **** is, in all honesty, probably just salty about losing to their character).

Essentially I'm saying "braindead" is not a bad thing. Characters being easy is a part of the game, particulary a game like Smash which is intentionally designed to be accessible for all skill levels, and characters remaining easy at higher skill levels is hardly surprising. The only time a "braindead" character becomes a problem is when they're inherently overpowered at the same time, as in the case of pre-patch Diddy or Luigi.

Incidentally I think Emblem Lord's list of characters that require "above average skill" was pretty good, though I'd swap Sheik, Ryu and Robin (none of whom are hard at all; I'll shoot the first person who says "SF inputs") for Little Mac and Zelda, both of whom do require a lot of skill which isn't simply rooted in them being bad characters.