Official Character Competitive Impressions - Tourneys, Tiers, Theories, Tactics

[Mario766]

FLUDDing Ike past the other ledge when he thinks he can quick draw over Mario's head for free.

Only works once though.

Try Tempesting Shulk to the point where he dies off the side


On the other side of the screen.

Ike only gets ****ed like that if he overcharges QD.

 

[HoSmash4]

Can we talk about a cloud (nicko) beating cacogen? (Top 5 U.S. Sheik)

 

[Mario766]

Got a link to the set? Maybe a Twitch VOD?

 

[Radical Larry]

Zero is clearly over exaggerating Cloud's placement on any tier list. If Cloud were in the top 10, this would be Super Smash Bros. Brawl and Meta Knight would be number one again. Cloud has 3 swordsmen to beat, but can't. Meta Knight, Ike and Link. That is all I have to say. ZeRo can just keep on playing, but he needs to keep the competitive/tier talking away from people. It's poison.

Look, Cloud's only "good" because people don't know how to go against him yet. Soon when people figure out how to fight him, his placement will be cemented.

Try Tempesting Shulk to the point where he dies off the side


On the other side of the screen.

That's nothing. Try breaking an opponent's shield 19 times in one match with Ganondorf.
Or try surviving around the 400%+ mark with Jigglypuff and WIN.
Both of these things occurred to me, and I still cannot fathom how I was able to pull it off.

 

[HoSmash4]

Got a link to the set? Maybe a Twitch VOD?

Twitch.tv/2gggaming

 

[DblCrest]

So is it better to hold onto Limit break or to use it up when you're using specials to secure KOs?
One of the reasons I've found Cloud to be a pretty fun and satisfying character to use, is hitting someone with one of his limit specials but is the mobility boost (Is there an attack power boost as well?) more beneficial than trading it for a possible KO in 1 on 1 matches?

Then there's how things would go in doubles.

Only got to play Cloud for 1.5 days since I had to leave home the next day to travel. So yeea

 

[Radical Larry]

So is it better to hold onto Limit break or to use it up when you're using specials to secure KOs?
One of the reasons I've found Cloud to be a pretty fun and satisfying character to use, is hitting someone with one of his limit specials but is the mobility boost (Is there an attack power boost as well?) more beneficial than trading it for a possible KO in 1 on 1 matches?

Then there's how things would go in doubles.

I believe it'd be more beneficial to get that possible KO. Cloud is a character you'll need to space perfectly for it though, because one mistake will likely cost you a stock. The mobility/weight boost Cloud gains with Limit is overshadowed by his Limit Moves, which need to be used wisely. But if you're at low damages and your opponent is as well, keep the Limit on and don't let it go until your opponent can be properly KO'd.

 

[Man Li Gi]

Zero is clearly over exaggerating Cloud's placement on any tier list. If Cloud were in the top 10, this would be Super Smash Bros. Brawl and Meta Knight would be number one again. Cloud has 3 swordsmen to beat, but can't. Meta Knight, Ike and Link. That is all I have to say. ZeRo can just keep on playing, but he needs to keep the competitive/tier talking away from people. It's poison.

Look, Cloud's only "good" because people don't know how to go against him yet. Soon when people figure out how to fight him, his placement will be cemented.



That's nothing. Try breaking an opponent's shield 19 times in one match with Ganondorf.
Or try surviving around the 400%+ mark with Jigglypuff and WIN.
Both of these things occurred to me, and I still cannot fathom how I was able to pull it off.

You don't need 19 shield breaks to win a match with Ganon. And living past 400% with Jiggs....did any of these occur in tourney?

 

[Aunt Jemima]

Hopefully this is alright to post here...

With all the Cloud talk, and considering I plan on using him until Bayonetta/Corrin are released, I decided to create a custom stage to help practice his techs 'n stuff. It's way too time consuming to set up bumpers everywhere, especially considering when they can trap you until they expire. I got sick of it (after six minutes), so I decided to do this.

Before I explain the stage, I'd like to note two things. At the moment, I only plan on making stages for Bayonetta/Corrin, along with the possibility of Marth, Ryu and Sheik. However, if anybody has any requests for a practice stage and can list legitimate features to include in a character's stage, message me and I'll do it if there's good enough reasons. I don't know enough techniques 'n stuff throughout the roster to create stages for other characters, so unless I'm informed on what to include I can't really do anything.

To make this post a bit more on-topic, I'll be detailing the different features of the stage and their uses in actual competitive matches. Also, I'd like to apologize in advance for the choppy gfycats. I ended up converting them to 30fps by accident, heh.

Anyways...

Getting right into it, the first thing to notice is the pyramid-like structure with floating lava on the sides. This was made to practice the different lengths/timings of Cloud's dash dance, with and without Limit Break (although I'm not sure if it makes a difference). I made a post detailing the importance of this here. The reason the lava is floating on the sides rather than on the floor is because Cloud's head/arm hurtboxes extend out further than his feet, so those need to be taken into account when moving around. Along with that, as they're floating, when the timing is messed up you're slid right to the other side, ready to practice again. Convenient! Here's a couple gfycats showing off how it works: 1/2/3

In the bottom left, there's a relatively open box with a large piece of floating lava. This is used to practice dash dance > d-tilt spacing, along with sliding under enemy attacks/projectiles with d-tilt. The open areas are big enough to effectively dash dance, which can then be cancelled into d-tilt using those godly IASA frames. If spaced properly, Cloud will pop out on the other side. If not, you'll get destroyed. Here's a gfycat showing Cloud not getting destroyed! Clicky~

To the right of that area, you can see a large wall of lava confined in a rectangle. This is used to practice wall techs, along with teching meteor smashes into the wall. The wall is close to the lava for a specific reason, however. I'm not sure if it's a universal thing, but Cloud's wall jump tech goes oddly far, which can end up putting him in an easy-to-edgeguard position. To avoid this, Cloud can B-Reverse his Blade Beam directly after the wall jump to keep all vertical distance while switching the momentum around. Due to the closed space of this area, Cloud will jump right back into the wall unless you cancel it with this. Along with that, you can use the vertical knockback on the area shown previously to practice this technique on the lip of a stage after getting a feel for it. Here's some choppy gfycats showing that off~... boop. boop. beep.

Next to that area, there's a ledge with a floating piece of lava above it. Behind not being Sheik, Cloud's biggest flaw is his poor recovery when Limit Break isn't available. To somewhat alleviate this, he can do the same thing Kirby does with Final Cutter. Usually, Cloud's hurtbox is shoved above the ledge, easy to hit with many D-Smashes/D-Tilts/everything in the game. However, if spaced properly, Cloud will grab onto the ledge while being under it. If mis-spaced, however, he'll be spiked back to the floor. Along with that, this set-up allows the player to practice close-ranged Climhazzard ledge snaps and LB Cimhazzard hitlag ledge snaps. Here's some noice gfys (cricricri that quality)~ shaq. shaqobo. demtags.

The final area is included in the one used to test Climhazzard. It's a generally open area without any obstacle, with a moving platform to the right. This platform is primarily to test shield dropping, but can also be used to get back to the top of the stage, practice Climhazzard spacing, etc., although it's still possible to do those things without it. The open area allows you to practice techniques that don't specifically need their own section, such as LBC out of dash, multiple foxtrots, dance trot turnaround to stall, combos and more. Here's a last set of gfycats to showcase some of that~ youknowyou. wantshaqobo.

Yeah, that's all I got for now. I'll edit in the download link in a bit. I'll also post in on the Cloud boards in-case I don't get around to doing it tonight, so if you're interested check over there tomorrow. To hopefully ensure this post isn't considered a red-topic, I also decided to verify BeefySmashDood's claim on the Smashville Balloon/Duck Hunt Ducks affecting Stale Move Negation. Smash Ball, Crates, etc. all affect it, too, so I'm assuming anything that a move's hitbox can come in contact with will affect it...? I ended up labbing some items and how they function with the mechanic, too, but that's unrelated and isn't relevant at all.

cloud is gud pls lab

I would like to see Cloud vs. Sheik/Pikachu/ZSS/Rosalina in high level play, though. I'm curious as to whether or not they obliterate the character due to their ability to edgeguard him. While most characters won't be able to end his stock completely free, I'm almost certain those characters can just demolish him the second he's offstage. I feel like that could hurt his viability a lot if it happens to be the case...

edit: dl is up, NNID is Inverted. Search it on Miiverse and download the stage.

 

[HoSmash4]

Hopefully this is alright to post here...
cloud is gud pls lab

I would like to see Cloud vs. Sheik/Pikachu/ZSS/Rosalina in high level play, though. I'm curious as to whether or not they obliterate the character due to their ability to edgeguard him. While most characters won't be able to end his stock completely free, I'm almost certain those characters can just demolish him the second he's offstage. I feel like that could hurt his viability a lot if it happens to be the case...

https://twitter.com/BearUNLV/status/679184795365019648

Cloud will be AMAZING versus sheik. Know why?
You get fthrow by sheik. You airdodge the bouncing fish. What do you do? FINSHING TOUCH AND KILL AT 50% when you're at 120%!

Cloud gets edgeguarded by sheik? TAKE HER DOWN WITH YOU!

She shorthops a lot? SLIDE UNDER THAT HO
She dashes towards you? Nair/grab
She needle camps? YOU GET A LIMIT CHARGE
You're getting edgeguarded? Cover yourself with uair/fair!
Sheik that likes to roll? (And a lot do), read it with a cross slash!
Sheik that has good microspacing! So you do you! Keep dash dancing with that insane foxtrot!
Sheik has good landing options with bouncing fish? Take a 50/50 guess and uair whether you think sheik will bouncing fish forward or reverse bouncing fish and get a really good juggle situation!

Cloud answers or maybe beats sheik in neutral. And offstage is not THAT bad as you might make out

 

[bc1910]

Is anyone else having the most insane fun with Bowser?

With his grab being an actual threat combined with his good run speed, Bowser is pretty terrifying for a lot of characters to deal with. Uthrow combos are super powerful (there is NOTHING more satisfying than Uthrow Bair) and Uthrow Uair kills at very solid percents.

He still loses to rushdown and being zoned out, so most of the top tiers and some of the high tiers still beat him pretty badly. But against the average mid-tier and below, Bowser is really effective.

I don't want to put an arbitrary number on it but I think Bowser's made a really big leap from bottom ~10 to probably the top of mid tier. He and DK are probably about as good as each other, DK might slightly edge him out but there's not much in it.

 

[Browny]

Sigh I hate it when Zero posts videos talking about characters and he hasnt looked into things for anywhere NEAR long enough to make a call, all he wants is the first video out there.

I don't want to be the person to try and bring a character down, but its just wrong when misinformation is spread and people keeping getting hit by things they should know how to dodge. Like it feels like its a big waste of time and is only going to upset people but do I have to make a video on how to punish clouds sideb and upb on-hit before people stop getting giving clouds free hits?

Floaties seem to get out of it easily but I did manage to get mario to DI out of cross slash and punish cloud. I'm sure with more testing and optimal DI I can find out how other characters can punish it but for now it seems that anyone who isnt a fast faller can rather easily airdodge the 4th hit of cross slash and anyone with a fast aerial can actually hit him before the 5th comes out.

 

[HoSmash4]

Sigh I hate it when Zero posts videos talking about characters and he hasnt looked into things for anywhere NEAR long enough to make a call, all he wants is the first video out there.

I don't want to be the person to try and bring a character down, but its just wrong when misinformation is spread and people keeping getting hit by things they should know how to dodge. Like it feels like its a big waste of time and is only going to upset people but do I have to make a video on how to punish clouds sideb and upb on-hit before people stop getting giving clouds free hits?

Floaties seem to get out of it easily but I did manage to get mario to DI out of cross slash and punish cloud. I'm sure with more testing and optimal DI I can find out how other characters can punish it but for now it seems that anyone who isnt a fast faller can rather easily airdodge the 4th hit of cross slash and anyone with a fast aerial can actually hit him before the 5th comes out.

Please do. Cross slash doesnt seem reliable at high %

 

[Browny]

Yeah generally the faster you fall, the later it stops connecting the 3rd and 4th hit. Mewtwo pops out of it at around 56%, I think I got mario to hit him out of it at around 70%.

His upb though I'm not so sure yet. I can airdodge it 100% of the time with Mewtwo after getting hit by the first part but I couldn't manage to get mario to do it, I was mostly testing cross slash stuff tonight I'll do more later.

 

[Smog Frog]

you can delay the 3rd hit of cross slash so it'll hit more consistently

 

[Browny]

The 4th hit is the one that misses, not the third

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yiJagYXR55A

I don't even know if I posted this here because I thought it was matchup specific but then I managed to do it with Mario and Yoshi when I tried them so it much be possible with more.

 

[Smog Frog]

it can be either hit that misses. delaying the 3rd helps because they'll fall easier into the 4th hit.

but this is on training mode dummies, it won't work on real opponents that di.

 

[Yikarur]

https://twitter.com/BearUNLV/status/679184795365019648

Cloud will be AMAZING versus sheik. Know why?
You get fthrow by sheik. You airdodge the bouncing fish. What do you do? FINSHING TOUCH AND KILL AT 50% when you're at 120%!

Cloud gets edgeguarded by sheik? TAKE HER DOWN WITH YOU!

She shorthops a lot? SLIDE UNDER THAT HO
She dashes towards you? Nair/grab
She needle camps? YOU GET A LIMIT CHARGE
You're getting edgeguarded? Cover yourself with uair/fair!
Sheik that likes to roll? (And a lot do), read it with a cross slash!
Sheik that has good microspacing! So you do you! Keep dash dancing with that insane foxtrot!
Sheik has good landing options with bouncing fish? Take a 50/50 guess and uair whether you think sheik will bouncing fish forward or reverse bouncing fish and get a really good juggle situation!

Cloud answers or maybe beats sheik in neutral. And offstage is not THAT bad as you might make out

This is either a troll or the most illusional post I've ever read.
I promise you the Sheik Cloud Match-up will be bad once the MU is figured.
Sheiks will not bouncing fish into your airdodge with a spacing that will lead to a punish.
Sheik has no reason to jump into upB to get killed off-stage. This would be a guessing game and the Cloud would risk his stock for trying. Not worth it.
How are you going to charge your limit while she is throwing needles at you?
Fair is a terrible move to prevent your opponent from edgeguarding you and Upair doesn't hit where it matters in that situation.
Hard Reads are not the definition of a character being good in neutral against another.
Sheik has one of the best disadvantage state in the game. You will rarely keep up if you try to juggle her. It's not even close to 50:50. Don't expect to get a lot of damage from juggling, because Sheik is rather immune against juggling.

I really hope the Cloud hype will die soon. I think this is the strongest hype I've ever seen. (and the least realistic)
But I'll give you a hint: Cloud is insanely easy to play. You need more effort to learn how to play against Cloud than playing Cloud.
So there will be a natural shift, once people know how to play the MU.

You should not try to put a character on a tier list or define match-ups for a character that is released 1 week ago.
It's probably a lot of fun to have the hopes up, but please everyone, stay realistic.


By the way, Beast 6 Ruleset is now set in stone http://beast-series.com/rules/smash4/

Stock and time are set to 3 stock and 8 minutes.
Custom Fighters are set to off.
Mii Fighters are legal.
Each setup will have 1122 Mii Brawlers / 2331 Swordsmen / 3322 Gunners available for use

First 3 Stock Major hype !

 

[warionumbah2]

K9 was the one who sent Nicko to losers in the first place. Cherry picking has already begun i see.

 

[HoSmash4]

This is either a troll or the most illusional post I've ever read.
I promise you the Sheik Cloud Match-up will be bad once the MU is figured.
Sheiks will not bouncing fish into your airdodge with a spacing that will lead to a punish.
Sheik has no reason to jump into upB to get killed off-stage. This would be a guessing game and the Cloud would risk his stock for trying. Not worth it.
How are you going to charge your limit while she is throwing needles at you?
Fair is a terrible move to prevent your opponent from edgeguarding you and Upair doesn't hit where it matters in that situation.
Hard Reads are not the definition of a character being good in neutral against another.
Sheik has one of the best disadvantage state in the game. You will rarely keep up if you try to juggle her. It's not even close to 50:50. Don't expect to get a lot of damage from juggling, because Sheik is rather immune against juggling.

I really hope the Cloud hype will die soon. I think this is the strongest hype I've ever seen. (and the least realistic)
But I'll give you a hint: Cloud is insanely easy to play. You need more effort to learn how to play against Cloud than playing Cloud.
So there will be a natural shift, once people know how to play the MU.

You should not try to put a character on a tier list or define match-ups for a character that is released 1 week ago.
It's probably a lot of fun to have the hopes up, but please everyone, stay realistic.


By the way, Beast 6 Ruleset is now set in stone http://beast-series.com/rules/smash4/



First 3 Stock Major hype !

Sheik's will not always be completely aware of the spacing of the 50/50 bouncing fish option that will lead to them getting hard punish.
Again this is the example i was talking about.
https://twitter.com/BearUNLV/status/679184795365019648
She uses needles? You can just keep charging limit. I'd take a limit break if it means i take 20% damage. Fair is a slow move but its there for covering your space as it outranges sheik's fair and gives sheik something to think about when trying to go offstage.
If you watch Cacogen vs Nicko you'd see Cloud can still do good vs sheiks disadvantage.

Cloud still has one of the best punish games in the game and its ignorant to think that his metagame will develop slower than others because you think he is super easy to play. (Which he probably is.)

Yes warionumbah2 k9 beat nicko but Nicko still beat cacogen with a 6 day old cloud, when he wouldnt have a chance with his marth.

Yes a lot of cloud's kill tools are 'reads' but we never talk about ike having trouble killing and he reads bigger reads.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

Also, Cloud builds limit simply by dealing and taking damage. He doesn't have to charge it manually, although it does let him build it faster.

 

[Vipermoon]

I wouldn't be surprised if Sheik's Fair outranges Cloud's (not that it matters since Fair is one of Cloud's worst moves). Someone should check.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Cloud is pretty braindead.

But the only characters that require more thought then average in this game are Sheik, Ryu, Diddy (Banana control takes understanding of stage presence), R.O.B (See Diddy but with gyros instead), Peach, Shulk, Robin, Villager and i think thats it.

But EL *insert low tier char* requires such skill and mastery!!!!

Nah, not really. Bad chars just suck. Zelda isn't this deep thought provoking char. Her gameplan is simple as ****. She's just bad.

TFW being a low tier hero doesnt mean jack **** cuz your main is easier to play then the best char in the game.

 

[Y2Kay]

I wouldn't be surprised if Sheik's Fair outranges Cloud's (not that it matters since Fair is one of Cloud's worst moves). Someone should check.

that's ridiculous, but sheik tho

again i wouldn't be too suprised if the range was,like the the same tho

 

[Vyrnx]

It's early to say whether Cloud is a good character or a mediocre character, but one thing I've noticed is that people are ignoring his bad recovery. Even his LB up b is not that good (there's something weird about the hitbox, and without a hitbox it reminds me of Pit's recovery but faster/even more linear), but that's besides the point because I doubt that Cloud will happen to have LB every time he is off stage at high level play. Cloud off stage without LB, the fact that he is so gimpable, is something that I predict will be very limiting for the character (but it's a prediction after all).

The two arguments I hear are 1) His recovery is not bad or 2) Other characters have survived in the meta with bad recoveries.

The first is ridiculous, of course his recovery is bad. Cloud has some great aerials no doubt, but that doesn't change the linearity of his recovery. He has to make it back to the ledge eventually, and he has one practical direction he can get to the ledge from. He can't afford to throw moves off stage. The hitbox on up b doesn't save him and it's not something any character will be afraid to contest. And for the many high level players that refuse to go off stage, they can catch his up b with something when it more than likely doesn't clip the ledge. Every character can do something off stage, Cloud not being an exception. I'm sure uair can save him on occasion, but it won't be reliable enough to bypass his poor recovery.

As for the second, the examples I saw listed were Ness and Falcon. The argument I would make here is that despite their recoveries being bad, they are better than Cloud's. Also, while players seem scared to go off stage vs these characters for whatever reason, I doubt that will be an issue with Cloud since his recovery is entirely non threatening, and on stage his recovery can still be challenged. Third, both Ness and Falcon are limited by their recoveries. Their on stage games are strong enough that they can compensate, Ness in particular, but no doubt they would have significantly more results and representation if they didn't have such limiting recoveries. No matter what direction Cloud's meta takes, he will still be limited by his recovery just like Ness and Falcon. Whether he can compensate as well as those two characters, we have to wait and see.

 

[C0rvus]

Wait wait wait, people aren't saying his recovery is bad?

Have you been reading this thread at all? Youtube comments maybe? Reddit posts? It's the first things people have to say about the character.

 

[Y2Kay]

Wait wait wait, people aren't saying his recovery is bad?

Have you been reading this thread at all? Youtube comments maybe? Reddit posts? It's the first things people have to say about the character.

people haven been saying that it's not as bad as we make it out to be.

Regardless, Vyrnx makes an exceptional point

 

[Radical Larry]

You don't need 19 shield breaks to win a match with Ganon. And living past 400% with Jiggs....did any of these occur in tourney?

I know, that's the fun part, I just wanted to torment the guy with Ganon. That one happened in a tournament, my first tournament a few months back. The one with the 400% Jiggs happened online, but it was still great.

Sigh I hate it when Zero posts videos talking about characters and he hasnt looked into things for anywhere NEAR long enough to make a call, all he wants is the first video out there.

I don't want to be the person to try and bring a character down, but its just wrong when misinformation is spread and people keeping getting hit by things they should know how to dodge. Like it feels like its a big waste of time and is only going to upset people but do I have to make a video on how to punish clouds sideb and upb on-hit before people stop getting giving clouds free hits?

Yeah, ZeRo plays a big game but lacks the real character analysis to make a good hypothesis.
And about your video to punish Cloud's Up B and Side B, I hope you add Limit Cross Slash, Cloud's Side Smash and how to beat his U-Air and D-Tilt as well. That'd inform quite a number of people.

I wouldn't be surprised if Sheik's Fair outranges Cloud's (not that it matters since Fair is one of Cloud's worst moves). Someone should check.

Well, I believe that with Cloud's high range, but Sheik's speed, it could go either way. Cloud has poor start up with his F-Air, but Sheik has somewhat less range. It depends on who can reach whom first. But I know for a fact that you shouldn't fight Sheik's F-Air with Cloud's F-Air, but instead, with Cloud's much faster N-Air.

Cloud is pretty braindead.

But the only characters that require more thought then average in this game are Sheik, Ryu, Diddy (Banana control takes understanding of stage presence), R.O.B (See Diddy but with gyros instead), Peach, Shulk, Robin, Villager and i think thats it.

But EL *insert low tier char* requires such skill and mastery!!!!

Nah, not really. Bad chars just suck. Zelda isn't this deep thought provoking char. Her gameplan is simple as ****. She's just bad.

TFW being a low tier hero doesnt mean jack **** cuz your main is easier to play then the best char in the game.

You're forgetting Link and Samus. With Link you have to know when to throw your projectiles and how far, when to find good spacing and learning proper timing. With Samus, it's not as blunt as spamming projectiles; you have to know a lot of things about her like using her combo throw (she has a combo throw), knowing when to time a perfect Charge Shot, making sure to find a way to get back to the ground without getting hit and trying to actually fool your opponent. There's more to these characters, but there are little run downs you need to know.

It's early to say whether Cloud is a good character or a mediocre character, but one thing I've noticed is that people are ignoring his bad recovery. Even his LB up b is not that good (there's something weird about the hitbox, and without a hitbox it reminds me of Pit's recovery but faster/even more linear), but that's besides the point because I doubt that Cloud will happen to have LB every time he is off stage at high level play. Cloud off stage without LB, the fact that he is so gimpable, is something that I predict will be very limiting for the character (but it's a prediction after all).

The two arguments I hear are 1) His recovery is not bad or 2) Other characters have survived in the meta with bad recoveries.

The first is ridiculous, of course his recovery is bad. Cloud has some great aerials no doubt, but that doesn't change the linearity of his recovery. He has to make it back to the ledge eventually, and he has one practical direction he can get to the ledge from. He can't afford to throw moves off stage. The hitbox on up b doesn't save him and it's not something any character will be afraid to contest. And for the many high level players that refuse to go off stage, they can catch his up b with something when it more than likely doesn't clip the ledge. Every character can do something off stage, Cloud not being an exception. I'm sure uair can save him on occasion, but it won't be reliable enough to bypass his poor recovery.

As for the second, the examples I saw listed were Ness and Falcon. The argument I would make here is that despite their recoveries being bad, they are better than Cloud's. Also, while players seem scared to go off stage vs these characters for whatever reason, I doubt that will be an issue with Cloud since his recovery is entirely non threatening, and on stage his recovery can still be challenged. Third, both Ness and Falcon are limited by their recoveries. Their on stage games are strong enough that they can compensate, Ness in particular, but no doubt they would have significantly more results and representation if they didn't have such limiting recoveries. No matter what direction Cloud's meta takes, he will still be limited by his recovery just like Ness and Falcon. Whether he can compensate as well as those two characters, we have to wait and see.

Agreeable. Cloud has one of the worst recoveries in the game and that will limit his MU quite a lot. In my honest opinion, regular Climhazzard and Cloud's method of recovery are the third worst in the game. Whereas many other characters can clip the edge, Cloud needs to be exactly at the edge (or a little lower) to actually clip it. That and due to the poor horizontal movement he will have thanks to his regular Climhazzard posts detrimental problems to him that can barely be remedied by his Limit Climhazzard. With Limit Climhazzard, he definitely has something to work with and it's not as bad, but it's not as good if your opponent plays it right.

Wait wait wait, people aren't saying his recovery is bad?

Have you been reading this thread at all? Youtube comments maybe? Reddit posts? It's the first things people have to say about the character.

I believe he looked at Reddit and YouTube.

 

[C0rvus]

people haven been saying that it's not as bad as we make it out to be.

Regardless, Vyrnx makes an exceptional point

Sure, his recovery is easily his biggest apparent opening. I feel like his lack of reliable kill setups will hurt more, but he is easier to edgeguard than Shulk, so that's really bad.

Also, sorry Larry, but Link is most definitely braindead.

 

[Yikarur]

Most people will probably disagree but Yoshi belongs in the part of super hard to play characters. Playing Yoshi in Top Level is one of the most exhausting things you can imagine in this game.

 

[san.]

Cloud's recovery is very bad, but he can afford to throw attacks out. I've been going through some of his recovery options:

• 2-3 nairs (frame 5, FAF 40) or 1-2 uairs (frame 7, lingers, FAF 46). The range needs to be respected by most of the cast.
  
• Small height gain from the first blade beam, maintain full aerial control during the endlag of blade beam
• After blade beam, you need to perform some other move (air dodge, jump, or attack) in order to get back your max air speed
• Small height gain from the cross slash missing. Helpful against opponents camping the edge of the stage.
  
• If cross slash hits the opponent, you gain more distance. This helps against opponents jumping at you offstage without risking losing much height.
  
• If you already used cross slash before, you gain some height with a double jump + another cross slash
• If the opponent chased you offstage, reverse climhazzard can help prevent stage spikes and force them on the defensive.
• Of course, charging limit. Getting hit might even end up filling the rest of the gauge.

Overall, I think it helps bring it up from terrible to just bad. That's potentially a few aerials, 1 use of blade beam, and a few uses of cross slash.

If Cloud has no other option but to eventually upB, any character can just dair him. Using blade beam at the wrong time can easily be punished. Most people can still keep their distance against Cloud's aerials and force him to have a difficult time recovering. Cloud has to hope for a very precise ledgegrab at the full horizontal distance + luck.

 

[TTTTTsd]

Cloud's recovery is very bad, but he can afford to throw attacks out. I've been going through some of his recovery options:

• 2-3 nairs (frame 5, FAF 40) or 1-2 uairs (frame 7, lingers, FAF 46). The range needs to be respected by most of the cast.
  
• Small height gain from the first blade beam, maintain full aerial control during the endlag of blade beam
• After blade beam, you need to perform some other move (air dodge, jump, or attack) in order to get back your max air speed
• Small height gain from the cross slash missing. Helpful against opponents camping the edge of the stage.
  
• If cross slash hits the opponent, you gain more distance. This helps against opponents jumping at you offstage without risking losing much height.
  
• If you already used cross slash before, you gain some height with a double jump + another cross slash
• If the opponent chased you offstage, reverse climhazzard can help prevent stage spikes and force them on the defensive.
• Of course, charging limit. Getting hit might even end up filling the rest of the gauge.

Overall, I think it helps bring it up from terrible to just bad. That's potentially a few aerials, 1 use of blade beam, and a few uses of cross slash.

If Cloud has no other option but to eventually upB, any character can just dair him. Using blade beam at the wrong time can easily be punished. Most people can still keep their distance against Cloud's aerials and force him to have a difficult time recovering. Cloud has to hope for a very precise ledgegrab at the full horizontal distance + luck.

Don't forget that as Cloud, you should ALWAYS DI up when you're gonna be launched horizontally. Self-explanatory but it's REALLLYYY important in this case, upwards DI lets you properly recover with Cloud, any other kind just makes it needlessly difficult and/or impossible. Normally I wouldn't point this out but it's super super important.

 

[san.]

That's true. Cloud still has a tough time returning to the stage even if he recovers high.

Also, Gunner requires a lot of technical consistency (Grenade by itself has 3-4 different B-reverse windows).

 

[Sonicninja115]

Cloud is pretty braindead.

But the only characters that require more thought then average in this game are Sheik, Ryu, Diddy (Banana control takes understanding of stage presence), R.O.B (See Diddy but with gyros instead), Peach, Shulk, Robin, Villager and i think thats it.

But EL *insert low tier char* requires such skill and mastery!!!!

Nah, not really. Bad chars just suck. Zelda isn't this deep thought provoking char. Her gameplan is simple as ****. She's just bad.

TFW being a low tier hero doesnt mean jack **** cuz your main is easier to play then the best char in the game.

Hey! Two out of three!

though, I personally think Mewtwo is a rather technical character. It's the only reason I picked him up.

In response to the ZeRo discussion, most high level players believe he is High tier, and the only reason ZeRo made that video was for the views of his usually not SB viewership.

Cloud vs. Shiek debate:

Cloud will most likely lose in the end. He has a horrid time recovering and can't sweetspot the ledge with his normal up B, this is really good for shiek.

And then, Shiek has a better neutral and projectile, plus a stellar grab and OoS game.

I think it is not going to be a complete blowout, but I don't see cloud winning.

 

[Vyrnx]

Wait wait wait, people aren't saying his recovery is bad?

Have you been reading this thread at all? Youtube comments maybe? Reddit posts? It's the first things people have to say about the character.

No reason to be rude. Yes, there are people who are saying his recovery isn't bad, there are people saying his recovery doesn't actually affect him, there are people that are pointing out all the positives and ignoring his recovery. That's my only point. It happens with lots of characters, the initial reception was that his recovery is bad, and then once people are hyping him they start ignoring it. They don't like being reminded that something fundamental like a recovery is bad, because it's a weakness that they can't do much about.

Edit: I also don't want to seem like I'm just trashing on Cloud. Cloud has some stuff that is genuinely impressive and if he was Mewtwo 2.0 where he gets overhyped and ends up being low tier (pre patch, at least), I think it'd be clear by now. Cloud has some fundamental strengths that will make up for some of his weaknesses IMO. But we can't just ignore weaknesses.

 

[Deleted member]

Also, sorry Larry, but Link is most definitely braindead.

Eh,

I wouldn't say Link requires as much thought as the characters that Emblem Lord listed but he certainly isn't braindead.

I mean, if you have the perception that all Link does is sit still and press the B button, well then yes, he's braindead.

But that perception is Link at his least optimal form of play, and that's the type of Link that perpetuates the "FG Link" stereotype and leads to him getting completely stomped out.

If you play Link like that you wouldn't be playing him well, in particular there is thought that goes into Link's bomb control, since his bombs are so incredibly versatile and can cover a decent range of space. Movement options with bombsliding (AKA Link's DITCIT), soft throw options, instant throw/z-catch-throw options, a few setups, etc. You can't just pick him up and be able to do all of it within 2 minutes.

High-level complex? No.

Braindead? I'd disagree.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Link def takes real thought....but that zair. I mean bomb drop to falling zair to boomerang throw....stuff like that makes you a question a chars mental intensiveness you dig?

IDK about Yoshi. I feel optimal Yoshi is alot of runaway and alot of eggs. Which def takes spacing knowledge.

Then again I am a sucker for microspacing and zoning.

idk. I just get experimented on and suffer from mako poisoning while living out delusions of my dead best friend/savior.

 

[TTTTTsd]

On the note of Cloud's recovery:

Yeah it's bad, and I won't ever deny that it does hold him back, like any other large flaw holds any other character back. But what I think prevents it from hitting that absolutely character crippling level is the fact that he has Limit recovery in certain instances, and usually it's around if you're managing your Limit properly (Camping, etc.). The damage threshold for it to build up completely with no player charge isn't super high (100%, not too bad) so if you factor in smart runaway/charging and the Limit you build on hit.....yeah. I won't deny that his recovery is probably holding him back and that there are inevitably times where there's no way around it, but I think that once people really get the hang of understanding the importance of meter management (a concept you see in traditional fighting games more than Smash, Cloud basically has a SUPER METER if you think about it) I think we'll see an improvement. I think that's the most in terms of abstract concepts that Cloud players need to implement, really. Early gimps and setups are still a thing, but the bumps in the road will either increase or smooth out, time will tell.

It's weird that Cloud has a super meter and not someone like Ryu but that's probably for the best (and considering that Ryu was based primarily off of SF2's CPS1 editions, it makes sense in context anyways).

 

[Aunt Jemima]

Cloud players need to learn to hold onto Limit Break for the mobility and be a lame butt, running away from everyone to charge it. Throwing away Limit Break to potentially hit with Cross Slash, Blade Beam, etc. is really stupid. You don't take guesses and throw out LB specials with Cloud. You need to wait until you've absolutely confirmed you can land something that's actually worth it (basically never use them until you're ready to kill). Luckily, once that time comes, you got gdlike dash dance and increased mobility to bait stuff.

You should never be hitting a shield with a Limit Break special. It's tempting to use them, but if you don't have it close within full charge or active at the time you're thrown offstage top tier characters will end your stock right there and then.

edit: btw gonna add stage dl in like 30~ minutes yay

edit2: dl is up, NNID is Inverted. Search it on Miiverse and download the stage.

 

[Balgorxz]

I don't know about sheik but Mario is/will be Cloud's worse MU by far, not even close.
cape reflects even the OL projectile and the upb loses to fludd all the time since it never sweetspots, also his weight is great for his combos