Official Character Competitive Impressions - Tourneys, Tiers, Theories, Tactics

[meleebrawler]

It's kind of funny how Dedede's throw game over the patches went the exact opposite direction of the other heavies. Started with an amazing dthrow that comboed into bair and uair at kill percents that was eventually nerfed to remove kill confirms, meanwhile DK and Bowser go from no followups to (cargo) uthrow>uair kills.

I think at this point reverting that nerf would be justified.

But then, there's also the fact that unlike the other heavies he fights by using massive disjoints to keep people out instead, since he usually fails spectacularly at approaching. Swordsmen generally have weaker throw games than most, and Dedede is the biggest, fattest swordsman (well mallet-penguin, but you get the idea) in the game. Giving him a better combo throw wouldn't do all that much since his poor approach and mobility would make it an unreliable source of damage. What you could do instead is increase the knockback of his throws besides dthrow, to let him assert stage control or edgeguard better (making them decent kill throws could be a bonus).

Basically it's not so much his throws that are the culprit for him having weaker followups from them, it's that he's just too darn slow to even get the followups outside his first jump, or even the grabs themselves consistently.

 

[S_B]

I think at this point reverting that nerf would be justified.

Entirely.

While D3's gordo metagame has indeed progressed a good deal since launch (when it comes to setting up traps and whatnot), it still hasn't really put him anywhere noteworthy, competition-wise. :\

But then, there's also the fact that unlike the other heavies he fights by using massive disjoints to keep people out instead, since he usually fails spectacularly at approaching. Swordsmen generally have weaker throw games than most, and Dedede is the biggest, fattest swordsman (well mallet-user, but you get the idea) in the game. Giving him a better combo throw wouldn't do all that much since his poor approach and mobility would make it an unreliable source of damage. What you could do instead is increase the knockback of his throws besides dthrow, to let him assert stage control or edgeguard better (making them decent kill throws could be a bonus).

Sakurai probably wouldn't give him a kill throw outright, but I think giving him back his throw followup would be feasible.

Also, some lag reduction on those aerials would be nice. All of his aerials are stupidly laggy on landing except Nair and even that isn't exactly quick...

 

[TDK]

Lucas

Lucas's has an ever-so tiny hitbox behind him, as in, you almost have to be touching him to get it.

 

[Smooth Criminal]

Entirely.

While D3's gordo metagame has indeed progressed a good deal since launch (when it comes to setting up traps and whatnot), it still hasn't really put him anywhere noteworthy, competition-wise. :\

62nd at EVO and 17th at Paragon, as well as some notably high placings elsewhere (Big D more or less running train on his whole region for the longest, King James taking down notables like Zinoto, just to name a few), isn't noteworthy?

It doesn't take away from the fact that he's a very flawed character, mind you. Just something to consider.

Sakurai probably wouldn't give him a kill throw outright, but I think giving him back his throw followup would be feasible.

Also, some lag reduction on those aerials would be nice. All of his aerials are stupidly laggy on landing except Nair and even that isn't exactly quick...

You can autocancel bair, nair, and uair. That's not TOO bad, granted, but I guess it wouldn't hurt.

Smooth Criminal

 

[Sonicninja115]

62nd at EVO and 17th at Paragon, as well as some notably high placings elsewhere (Big D more or less running train on his whole region for the longest, King James taking down notables like Zinoto, just to name a few), isn't noteworthy?

It doesn't take away from the fact that he's a very flawed character, mind you. Just something to consider.




You can autocancel bair, nair, and uair. That's not TOO bad, granted, but I guess it wouldn't hurt.

Smooth Criminal

Big D almost took out Esam too.

 

[Nobie]

The talk about autocancel windows and landing lag reminded me of something else about Mewtwo.

Mewtwo used to be a character who had pretty effective autocancels. Fair, bair, dair, and up air could all autocancel out of a short hop.

Now, they've added lower landing lag on all of those, AND made nair's landing lag a mere 10 frames.

It means he has the option to use either relatively low landing lag frames OR well-placed autocancel windows. Will Mewtwo do a short hop fair, or a landing fair? Either way, it works out well for him.

 

[bc1910]

I just dont buy it that Greninja is a combo heavy character. He has some decently high damage combos he can get from nair but its just so risky and inconsistent. Just then I watched a set of the Japanese Greninja 'Some' and you can count on one hand how many 2+ hit combos he manages to land in any given match.

I know he has combos but the fact that so many of them rely on nair which has low range, makes me not find his combo game as threatening. Some plays hit-and-run very effectively and only goes for combos when he lands a nair but misses them the vast majority of the time when the enemy just shields/attacks it.

It's such a massive difference to someone like mario who has 3 or so ways he can start his usual utilt/uair chains which do more damage and hit pretty much every stock while continuing to get uair chains throughout a stock.

I'm not really denying this, however you could also count on one hand how many 2+ hit combos any given Mewtwo player manages to land in a match. I mean, there's a reason everyone **** themselves when that Nairo M2 string surfaced on Reddit. I for one had never seen anything like it.

In terms of damage output, both Mewtwo and Greninja have top tier combos. Both, though, are quite a bit below your cookie cutter top tier autocombo characters in terms of how often they're gonna start an extended string.

I'd argue both or neither character belongs in a combo-heavy group, not just Mewtwo, and it depends on your definition. If you're purely looking at how often a character can start an extended string then neither character belongs up there, but if you're looking at overall damage output and mileage out of combos then Greninja and Mewtwo are both pretty solid.

 

[S_B]

62nd at EVO and 17th at Paragon, as well as some notably high placings elsewhere (Big D more or less running train on his whole region for the longest, King James taking down notables like Zinoto, just to name a few), isn't noteworthy?

It doesn't take away from the fact that he's a very flawed character, mind you. Just something to consider.

Noteworthy in my mind is when it feels like a character could legitimately take an Evo, or at least sees plenty of representation in top 8s.

You can autocancel bair, nair, and uair. That's not TOO bad, granted, but I guess it wouldn't hurt.

True, but a lot of these aerials (especially Bair) are going to be used when approaching the ground for maximum effect.

I think D3 and maybe DK are the only two heavies who haven't gotten a landing lag reduction on at least one aerial (and I'm not sure on DK...).

 

[wedl!!]

And you would be right on both counts.

Just about the only meaningful buff Dedede has received his name taking up one line on the CSS.

 

[bc1910]

If anything D3 was nerfed. Don't know if anyone remembers his original 3DS Dthrow but Dthrow Fair was a very real combo which often allowed him to set up Fair chains and carry people offstage. When they made the angle more vertical it meant Uair was the only real follow-up past low percents, which is nowhere near as versatile.

I'm almost positive D3 had/has a high online win rate, which has contributed toward his lack of buffs. Gordos are a nightmare to deal with online and Dsmash is a pretty riskless kill option which also covers rolls. He's also considered fairly average in Japan AFAIK, which likely means the devs don't think he needs much work to get up to par.

 

[Man Li Gi]

Server maintence is taking a bit for no real reason.

 

[WingedKnight]

If anything D3 was nerfed. Don't know if anyone remembers his original 3DS Dthrow but Dthrow Fair was a very real combo which often allowed him to set up Fair chains and carry people offstage. When they made the angle more vertical it meant Uair was the only real follow-up past low percents, which is nowhere near as versatile.

I'm almost positive D3 had/has a high online win rate, which has contributed toward his lack of buffs. Gordos are a nightmare to deal with online and Dsmash is a pretty riskless kill option which also covers rolls. He's also considered fairly average in Japan AFAIK, which likely means the devs don't think he needs much work to get up to par.

Worse than that, you could also connect with a BAir if you buffered the turnaround during the throw animation. It was the bread and butter for early Dedede, allowing him to kill or at least put opponents off the stage. Removing that and reducing the damage needed to knock back Gordo came in the first patch. Crippling. I'd been trying to make Dedede work, as my old Brawl main, despite the changes, but they just kept nerfing him.

 

[S_B]

Server maintence is taking a bit for no real reason.

Adding Corin, Bayonetta, and the other top 9 characters from the poll as a Sakuraisurprise™.

 

[Y2Kay]

Adding Corin, Bayonetta, and the other top 9 characters from the poll as a Sakuraisurprise™.

Sakurai gives us wolf as a surprise christmas gift

 

[S_B]

Sakurai gives us wolf as a surprise christmas gift

How epic would it have been in the Smash direct...?

Sakurai: Bayonetta will be the last character added to SSB4.

(three seconds pass)

"CAN'T LET YOU DO THAT, SAKURAI!"

 

[Man Li Gi]

I pray for Wolf...would drop DK in a heartbeat. That's how much I love Wolf.

 

[Y2Kay]

now back to a not red topic.....

Wholly jeez, being edgeguarded by Cloud with full limit is probably one of the worst disadvantages in the game.

So many different ways to die....... shudder

 

[S_B]

now back to a not red topic.....

Wholly jeez, being edgeguarded by Cloud with full limit is probably one of the worst disadvantages in the game.

So many different ways to die.......shudder

But edgeguarding Cloud with NO LB is like a buffet of choices on how to murder him! :D

 

[Blobface]

I'm not sure how Limit Break Cloud has that much better edgeguarding than non LB Cloud beyond covering the ledge with Side B. Care to elaborate?

 

[S_B]

I'm not sure how Limit Break Cloud has that much better edgeguarding than non LB Cloud beyond covering the ledge with Side B. Care to elaborate?

I think down+B covers every ledge getup option except for waiting.

If you mean that his Dair is disgusting, then yes, that is true.

 

[Y2Kay]

I'm not sure how Limit Break Cloud has that much better edgeguarding than non LB Cloud beyond covering the ledge with Side B. Care to elaborate?

A Cloud w/o limit break probably won't even edgeguard you because they're no guarantee you'll make it back. But w/ limit break, he doesn't have to worry in a worst case scenario, he can also use down B and Neutral B to kill you too, along with his regular nair, fair, bair, and dair. Oh yeah, there is also the fact that LB gives you a slight boost in aerial mobility too iirc.

 

[Emblem Lord]

I'm not sure how Limit Break Cloud has that much better edgeguarding than non LB Cloud beyond covering the ledge with Side B. Care to elaborate?

Ok, but...thats basically guaranteed death vs virtually everyone. Or LB Blade Beam to cover the ledge. That works too.

 

[Y2Kay]

Finishing touch is still freakin' powerful in the air unlike KO Punch

 

[meleebrawler]

More about Dedede: he's another one of those characters that has a clear goal in mind, but whose tools aren't quite up to the task. When playing him, you want to be the most frustratingly durable fortress (being the absolute toughest to kill off the top is no small feat in a game filled with powerful vertical kill options) imaginable. If he gets a sizable lead, it becomes a monumental task to wrest it back from him, especially as damage only further adds to his might. Anybody who's fought him abilityless in past Kirby games can attest to how long it takes to beat him.

I don't see him in the same vein as the likes of Bowser, DK and Ganondorf, and thus I don't think the buffs that worked for them will necessarily work on D3. As his game revolves around repeatedly knocking back opponents who approach, he should have respectable knockback on everything he has, including things like fair (still not as much as bair, but c'mon) and his throws. He's never been about combos, especially with the slowest airspeed in the game.

Worse than that, you could also connect with a BAir if you buffered the turnaround during the throw animation. It was the bread and butter for early Dedede, allowing him to kill or at least put opponents off the stage. Removing that and reducing the damage needed to knock back Gordo came in the first patch. Crippling. I'd been trying to make Dedede work, as my old Brawl main, despite the changes, but they just kept nerfing him.

They nerfed him just once or twice, and haven't touched him since.

 

[Mario766]

Limit Break Cloud could always


I dunno

Use his FRAME FIVE backwards hitting N-Air to gimp people and go super deep with Up-B because it's hard to NOT recover with it. There's videos of people doing 3-4 N-Airs with a wall jump and recover with normal up-b, think of what people could do with limit break.

 

[Sonicninja115]

But edgeguarding Cloud with NO LB is like a buffet of choices on how to murder him! :D

Ganondorf'so Dair destroys Cloud's recovery. Very satisfying.

 

[Mario766]

Name a down air that doesn't destroy Cloud's recovery.

 

[S_B]

Ganondorf'so Dair destroys Cloud's recovery. Very satisfying.

Yep, Bowser's Dtilt or Dair will both wreck his recovery.

Name a down air that doesn't destroy Cloud's recovery.

Fox's probably won't push him down very far before Cloud can Up-B again.

 

[Mario766]

Fox's would either stage spike him or push him off-stage more due to the 60 degree angle. Both accomplishing the goal at hand.

 

[meleebrawler]

Limit Break Cloud could always


I dunno

Use his FRAME FIVE backwards hitting N-Air to gimp people and go super deep with Up-B because it's hard to NOT recover with it. There's videos of people doing 3-4 N-Airs with a wall jump and recover with normal up-b, think of what people could do with limit break.

The only thing stopping people from offstage edgeguarding with Cloud is not being willing to use LB Climhazzard for recovery.

 

[S_B]

Fox's would either stage spike him or push him off-stage more due to the 60 degree angle. Both accomplishing the goal at hand.

It depends upon where Cloud is getting hit. Is Cloud at the top of his up+B, presumably close to the ledge, when he gets Daired, or are we talking about before his Up+B?

Also, I've noticed that Clouds have started recovering just a bit away from the ledge so most Dtilts won't reach Cloud but his sword will still hit someone on the ledge if he rises above it.

 

[Mario766]

It depends upon where Cloud is getting hit. Is Cloud at the top of his up+B, presumably close to the ledge, when he gets Daired, or are we talking about before his Up+B?

I'm talking going out and hitting him. Regardless of the circumstance. Fox's would more likely want to F-Air though, so you're probably right.

 

[S_B]

I'm talking going out and hitting him. Regardless of the circumstance. Fox's would more likely want to F-Air though, so you're probably right.

Ahh, okay. Yeah, that'd be the end of Cloud for sure.

I was envisioning catching him with Dair/Dtilts on the ledge as he rises.

In Bowser's case, his Dair will also kill him if it doesn't trade so you want to do it on the very edge right as Cloud attempts to rise to it. Works on Ryu as well if he overshoots the ledge at all.

 

[irokex13]

Ganondorf'so Dair destroys Cloud's recovery. Very satisfying.

"Haha yeah! I'll go Ganon and stomp Cloud's recov-... Oh, I got killed at 60% by Finishing Touch."

It's very apparent that Cloud has a bad recovery and struggles hard in disadvantage, but Cloud has a strong neutral and is a nightmare when he's in advantage. Also, he's really freaking good at edgeguarding as well.

 

[WingedKnight]

They nerfed him just once or twice, and haven't touched him since.

I meant since Brawl. He was "retooled" and I didn't consider him necessarily WORSE, but then they followed it with the nerfs to the nerfed version in that first patch. Besides, considering the widespread buffs across the board in subsequent patches, not being touched puts him further behind the cast. There are so many great characters in Smash 4 and I love the higher competitive value, but I definitely miss the utility of Waddle Dees, BAir, and chaingrabs that the King used to have.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Limit Break Cloud could always


I dunno

Use his FRAME FIVE backwards hitting N-Air to gimp people and go super deep with Up-B because it's hard to NOT recover with it. There's videos of people doing 3-4 N-Airs with a wall jump and recover with normal up-b, think of what people could do with limit break.

I am really about to just do this. **** getting dudes to 70% then going for a Finishing Touch land trap. Imma throw you off the stage and swing my giant sword in your face till you die. Sooner or later at least one of those nairs will hit you.

 

[Mario766]

Nothing's more fun to watch than a Cloud endlessly N-Airing Ness/Lucas when they recovery with PK Thunder.

NOTHING.

 

[NachoOfCheese]

Nothing's more fun to watch than a Cloud endlessly N-Airing Ness/Lucas when they recovery with PK Thunder.

NOTHING.

...
I mean
Most Lucas mains don't even use PK thunder unless thay have to because Zair is so much safer.

 

[Antonykun]

Nothing's more fun to watch than a Cloud endlessly N-Airing Ness/Lucas when they recovery with PK Thunder.

NOTHING.

pocketing their pk thunder, stealing their hopes to recover, and cheerfully flying away.

here's something everyone i know agrees with: Cloud is very similar to Swordfighter. It's probably the reason why i enjoy cloud so much

 

[BSP]

Nothing's more fun to watch than a Cloud endlessly N-Airing Ness/Lucas when they recovery with PK Thunder.

NOTHING.

FLUDDing Ike past the other ledge when he thinks he can quick draw over Mario's head for free.

Only works once though.