Official Character Competitive Impressions - Tourneys, Tiers, Theories, Tactics

[Ghostbone]

Would that really be that bad, though? I mean DK vs ZSS is by no means good for him, but... I wonder how people would see the MU had (DK)Will not messed up the jump of his last cargo in the set vs Nairo which would've won him the set.

DK's advantage as a heavy is mostly nullified when he dies as early as 25% every stock.
I mean you can DI ZSS's stuff properly so you live most of the time on non-platform stages, MK's combo is a lot more deadly.

 

[SaltyKracka]

I've been thinking. Do we as a community overrate the ability to approach? It's something brought up a lot when mentioning underwhelming characters; "X can't approach". But do they need to? Or is it a necessity born out of the best character in the game likely being able to out camp them?

What's far more likely to be mentioned is that X is forced to approach, usually because they are unable to out camp the opponent (looking at you, Rosa, Villager)

As approaching is an aggressive option in a game highly centered around defensive options, it is almost always a disadvantageous state. This can be exacerbated by having bad approach options, but the two should not be confused.

 

[Man Li Gi]

MK vs DK is almost as bad as ZSS vs DK lol.

DK being a heavy has like a 30% range where dash attack will kill him, and the %s he dies from dash attack overlap the %s where he dies from d-throw so you're basically screwed.

It could be the sample size and personal player skill, but I have like 7 MKs in my region and none have been able to take a set (let alone a game off). I know the percents when they work and truth it don't kill if the DK DIs right (I've lived off the a 30-45% converted uair chain that just couldn't kill). Actually when it could kill, u see the shuttle loop not connect (only mid air tho).

The MK MU ain't as brutal as ZSS....not even close. While ZSS has an average neutral and strong mobility along with a strong punish game, MK has decent mobility, punish and what sense of neutral (not trying to be bogus, but this has been something that perplexed me in brawl too where he was strong because of his great punish and offstage game). Many times I find myself staying in the lead and simply waiting for the approach. In other words, I don't see the MU being so much in MKs favor, but more of a test of patience from the DK.

 

[Mazdamaxsti]

I've been thinking. Do we as a community overrate the ability to approach? It's something brought up a lot when mentioning underwhelming characters; "X can't approach". But do they need to? Or is it a necessity born out of the best character in the game likely being able to out camp them?

Approach options matter, a lot. If your character is forced (either by projectiles, or they're losing) they NEED to have good options to get in and to the damage they need to do. If your character can't do that, it is a weakness, because they can't get anything good off of approaching when forced.

 

[Ghostbone]

It could be the sample size and personal player skill, but I have like 7 MKs in my region and none have been able to take a set (let alone a game off). I know the percents when they work and truth it don't kill if the DK DIs right (I've lived off the a 30-45% converted uair chain that just couldn't kill). Actually when it could kill, u see the shuttle loop not connect (only mid air tho).

That just means they're doing it wrong.
MK can connect 6 uairs on DK and he dies every time that happens (as low as 25%)

 

[Kofu]

What's far more likely to be mentioned is that X is forced to approach, usually because they are unable to out camp the opponent (looking at you, Rosa, Villager)

As approaching is an aggressive option in a game highly centered around defensive options, it is almost always a disadvantageous state. This can be exacerbated by having bad approach options, but the two should not be confused.

Villager can only "camp" characters that have bad mobility (having a large/tall hurtbox can also make getting around his projectiles difficult but mobility is a bigger deal). He's a mid-range zoner first and foremost, you're not threatening anyone across the stage with Lloid.

 

[Mazdamaxsti]

Villager can only "camp" characters that have bad mobility (having a large/tall hurtbox can also make getting around his projectiles difficult but mobility is a bigger deal). He's a mid-range zoner first and foremost, you're not threatening anyone across the stage with Lloid.

threatening doesn't matter. As long as villy is winning he can just throw out those Lloids, and at some point they HAVE to approach, no matter what. Same with all characters really, but a bit more difficult without a projectile.

 

[Man Li Gi]

That just means they're doing it wrong.
MK can connect 6 uairs on DK and he dies every time that happens (as low as 25%)

I've gotten the 6 and even on a T&C and didn't die to it. It had yet kill me. I've died from converted 3 while I was already mid air with shuttle loop. But the early stuff has yet work. I know the power that MK has, but it hasn't worked on me yet.

 

[FallofBrawl]

Just a theory, if there was a character that has no approach game at all, super bad ground speed and air mobility, but has the best OoS game in history, and the best baiting moves with very little endlag (not landing lag) on a lot of attacks.

With frame 2 utilts, frame 2 up b's, etc. How would they fare in this metagame? Is shielding and punishing enough to make a character high tier or should the character have some kind of tools to force something out of the opponent with their approaching?

 

[Kofu]

On another Cloud-related note, it seems Climhazzard can't be stopped by clanking.

Is this the initial grounded launcher or once he's airborne? I'd assme the former because of course you can't clank with aerials.

threatening doesn't matter. As long as villy is winning he can just throw out those Lloids, and at some point they HAVE to approach, no matter what. Same with all characters really, but a bit more difficult without a projectile.

I must have a slightly different concept of camping then, at least as the game starts. As it progresses and characters get a lead, sure, you can camp then. But when I use Villager, my initial strategy is to use Lloid, slingshots, and potentially Timber to create traps and find an opening. Once an opening is created, Villager is fairly good at maintaining pressure and keeping the opponent on their toes. But until that point he's got to be careful. His mobility is rather bad, his options to deal with shields are terrible, and is damage per hit is poor as well. His frame data and auto cancels are respectable though (particularly in the air), so making the most of that is essential.

Certain characters are defensive. I would classify Rosalina in this category, since she has dangerous disjoints, a good grab, and a way to put long-range pressure on the opponent with Luma.

Characters that can actually force approaches in neutral either have a projectile that can be used for long-range pressure with little risk to themselves (like Fox) or a chargeable move that you don't want them to get. Projectiles like this are generally more dangerous and potent (Charge Shot, Shadow Ball), but even other chargeable attacks are powerful tools (Giant Punch) or a complete game changer (Waft, Limit Break).

While it's easier said than done, counterplaying Villager's camping as the game begins is a combination of speed to beat out Lloid and lasting hitboxes to snuff slingshots. I personally don't think Villager is good at forcing approaches against the perceived top/high tiers because they practically all have good mobility and power. Against lower tiers he's more potent but he still has to get close enough where certain characters can break his zoning ( most notably). Sometimes all they need is a more effective camping game (). Unlike Rosalina Pocket isn't a free button to nullify all projectiles and characters who can pester him with lots of little hitboxes are very frustrating. He does camp the heavies pretty well though.

 

[Emblem Lord]

idk you tell me.

Such and such char has the tools to force Captain Falcon to approach.

Wait a minute.....

Honestly though its dependent on alot of variables but generally speaking being forced to approach only sucks if that chars approach sucks.

 

[C0rvus]

Just a theory, if there was a character that has no approach game at all, super bad ground speed and air mobility, but has the best OoS game in history, and the best baiting moves with very little endlag (not landing lag) on a lot of attacks.

With frame 2 utilts, frame 2 up b's, etc. How would they fare in this metagame? Is shielding and punishing enough to make a character high tier or should the character have some kind of tools to force something out of the opponent with their approaching?

Sounds like Ryu lmao
The answer is they would just get camped. Characters that make you not want to go near them but can't force you to come near them will get camped, one way or another. Pre-patch Luigi had trouble against characters like Wario and Toon Link who could keep away and still remain a threat.

 

[S_B]

Just a theory, if there was a character that has no approach game at all, super bad ground speed and air mobility, but has the best OoS game in history, and the best baiting moves with very little endlag (not landing lag) on a lot of attacks.

With frame 2 utilts, frame 2 up b's, etc. How would they fare in this metagame? Is shielding and punishing enough to make a character high tier or should the character have some kind of tools to force something out of the opponent with their approaching?

That's an interesting hypothetical.

With Sheik running around, I'd say that character would get murdered, unless you're talking about a character with good "intercepting" moves that could be used to swat Sheik out of the air when she tried to leap over them.

The problem stems from the fact that zoning moves are typically used to get confirms and, without those, predictability would set in pretty damn fast.

One of the things that makes the top tier generally as good as they are is their ability to be unpredictable (the exception being Rosalina because she's probably going to wall you out with Luma most of the time) and be generally quick and hard to react to while doing it. If this character couldn't mix it up well? Eh, I don't see them doing all that great.

 

[TriTails]

If a character has super bad mobility, no amount of frame data can change the fact this character's DA is held back, SHFF game is held back, zone breaking ability is held back.

Unless the character has super long range, absurd projectile, and crazy rewards. I mean, the description sounds a lot like Luigi, except his ground speed is below average rather than 'super bad' but his moves not coming out that fast. He has bad approach game and shields a lot. But I can tell you this after maining the character for a year, rewards can be crazy, but mobility will always be an issue.

Bad ground mobility means you can't chase people at all. Dash attack and dash grab are held back due to how slow they are. You can't get into your juggling position comfortably and tend to struggle against projectiles due to the time it takes to just reach people on the other side. Your punish game will also be hindered.

Bad aerial mobility means you're a juggling pin. Doesn't help since the character is implied to 'have low end lag (But NOT landing lag)', you can't just falling aerial something. You can't extend combos and SHFF game will be suffering, even with the best set of aerials. You will also have a bad time offstage, not being able to move much. And every time you are jumping to the air, you can't chase airdodging people easily.

I mean, we all know what pre-patch Luigi is. Bad mobility but crazy rewards. He lose too hard to Sheik and Rosalina to be solo-viable even when he kills them at 90% simply because he can't catch people (Sheik) or get through camping and projectiles (Rosa, Mega, Pac, you name them). Considering Smash 4 is a reign where mobility rules, I don't think this particular character will do good. All people need to do is just to shove disjointed stuffs and run away to camp to beat this character, because they have no reason to approach and stay in his face. Sheik and Rosa will pretty much ROTFL this character.

 

[meleebrawler]

Is this the initial grounded launcher or once he's airborne? I'd assme the former because of course you can't clank with aerials.

It was a Ganondorf ftilt, so yeah it was the initial thrust.

 

[Aaron1997]

John #s Just beat Vinnies Sheik with WFT... Time to rethink WFT.

 

[C0rvus]

John Numbers has always done well with Wii Fit. He's a very good player and Wii Fit is a solid character. Good for him, that's a great result. But what is there to rethink exactly?

 

[outfoxd]

John #s Just beat Vinnies Sheik with WFT... Time to rethink WFT.

Any of her crazy spikes land or was it just good play. I didn't see the set and i wanna know how it transpired

 

[FallofBrawl]

John #s Just beat Vinnies Sheik with WFT... Time to rethink WFT.

Vinnie took way too long to get used to Sheik again after using and losing with Cloud, John just took advantage of it. I'm not saying #'s is bad, he's one of the most knowledgeable and tech-savvy player in Smash 4. But Vinnie definitely did not look like himself until game 2 of set 2.

 

[Y2Kay]

We all know WFT trainer is no as bad as Reddit thinks....right?

 

[Aunt Jemima]

Just a theory, if there was a character that has no approach game at all, super bad ground speed and air mobility, but has the best OoS game in history, and the best baiting moves with very little endlag (not landing lag) on a lot of attacks.

With frame 2 utilts, frame 2 up b's, etc. How would they fare in this metagame? Is shielding and punishing enough to make a character high tier or should the character have some kind of tools to force something out of the opponent with their approaching?

so Kirby with Upper Cutter?

 

[outfoxd]

We all know WFT trainer is no as bad as Reddit thinks....right?

I been header spiked enough times by my friend to hate her.

 

[FallofBrawl]

so Kirby with Upper Cutter?

Eh more like a Ryu with Luigi mobility/nair and MK/Ryu levels of baiting. I don't think Kirby is a good bait/punish character
Edit: But yea with the **** description I gave a lot of characters fit under that type lmao

 

[Balgorxz]

saving this post when people start praising WFT from nowhere when we have clearly stated more than once she is good enough to be played in a competitive scene, some of it like 2 pages ago

 

[Mario766]

I can't believe this thread has spent several pages discussing what to name a kill combo, this is ridiculous.

Besides, there's only one character that should have a combo called showtime...

Dante wants a word with you.

 

[Ghostbone]

We all know WFT trainer is no as bad as Reddit thinks....right?

She's probably like 17-18th (top 20 for sure).
Anti, John #s and Waveguider have shown repeatedly she has tools to compete at high level.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

She's probably like 17-18th (top 20 for sure).
Anti, John #s and Waveguider have shown repeatedly she has tools to compete at high level.

Referring back to my post here, also shameless plug, top 20 ~= top 34% of the cast. Let's call it an even third. So WFT is better than 2/3rds of the cast? I find that a bit hard to believe, if I'm being honest.

To pre-emptively clarify, I don't mean to imply that she's bad. But top third? I'm not entirely convinced. Maybe it's because I'm still not sure what WFT's overarching game plan actually is.

 

[Mazdamaxsti]

Just a theory, if there was a character that has no approach game at all, super bad ground speed and air mobility, but has the best OoS game in history, and the best baiting moves with very little endlag (not landing lag) on a lot of attacks.

With frame 2 utilts, frame 2 up b's, etc. How would they fare in this metagame? Is shielding and punishing enough to make a character high tier or should the character have some kind of tools to force something out of the opponent with their approaching?

Reserved said it, but you literally described custom Kirby.

No approach game, average run speed, horrid air speed, upper cutter (fast, invincible, good range, kills), frame 4/5 tilts. Minus the best baiting moves, this is like a better kirby. It doesn't work. A character that is basically forced to shield because thats his only good option (oos) will just get grabbed, the opponent has to play safe and grab more than attack. Ryu isn't this, but Ryu could be (I guess) the closest, but is still top tier because he doesn't match these exact perimeters.

 

[C0rvus]

Well, according to Numbers himself, Wii Fit's only hopeless MU is against Kirby. She loses to characters with strong rushdown or the ability to negate her projectiles (Fox, Sheik, Mario come to mind). Her focus seems to be on her projectile game and good mobility. I see a lot of keepaway potential for WFT, but know little about her CQC and kill consistency. We have players getting results with her despite her lack of overall popularity. She could be top 20, but then again so could a good number of characters.

I feel like getting characters in numeric order seems like a farce. We should just have groups or something instead. General power level is just as important- if not more important- than knowing exactly which characters are better or worse than yours.

 

[Mazdamaxsti]

Well, according to Numbers himself, Wii Fit's only hopeless MU is against Kirby. She loses to characters with strong rushdown or the ability to negate her projectiles (Fox, Sheik, Mario come to mind). Her focus seems to be on her projectile game and good mobility. I see a lot of keepaway potential for WFT, but know little about her CQC and kill consistency. We have players getting results with her despite her lack of overall popularity. She could be top 20, but then again so could a good number of characters.

I feel like getting characters in numeric order seems like a farce. We should just have groups or something instead. General power level is just as important- if not more important- than knowing exactly which characters are better or worse than yours.

WFT is hopeless against... kirby? k lets not get ahead of ourselves #s lmao

It's a bad MU for sure, but hopeless? I can't see it.

 

[Vyrnx]

What results does Wii Fit have? I'm actually asking though, I could definitely be overlooking them, but I've been looking for a while now, haven't found any outstanding results. And her best results are with customs. Anti brings out Wii Fit in high level matches occasionally and almost always loses. Anti can keep the match close, but losing at high level isn't backing up, "definitely top 20." Top 20 is pretty crowded right now.

Edit: Looking at the character list again she could probably fall from 20-22ish range though, so never mind,

 

[C0rvus]

WFT is hopeless against... kirby? k lets not get ahead of ourselves #s lmao

It's a bad MU for sure, but hopeless? I can't see it.

His words, not mine. (Least that's what I remember.) Though keep in mind he does play in the same region as MikeKirby, so he likely knows the struggle best. Tbh I can clearly see why it might be a losing MU, but her worst? I wouldn't know.

 

[Mazdamaxsti]

His words, not mine. (Least that's what I remember.) Though keep in mind he does play in the same region as MikeKirby, so he likely knows the struggle best. Tbh I can clearly see why it might be a losing MU, but her worst? I wouldn't know.

I was basically using your quote to comment on #s statement lol. I could definitely see it being one of her worse MUs, but maybe some struggles against Mike can also add bias. I can't see it as hopeless/horrible.

 

[FallofBrawl]

WFT is probably the hardest character to get a cross up on since her jab and f-tilt out of shield hit behind her. Her best punishing aerial in bair comes to mind too.

 

[TDK]

WFT is in the same boat as Peach at the minute. We all know they're great characters, but they're so difficult to learn that nobody wants to try.

 

[Browny]

Just popping by to saw that Mewtwo now has some of the highest damaging combos in the game. For way too long people complained about him having no combos. His fair and nair frame trap really well now.

jab - dtilt - fair is 22% and works on just about everyone and keeps working quite late on heavies and you can even get 2 fairs (true combo) on them for about 34% off a jab. uair takes the place of fair on lightweights for about 19%.
nair to grab/jab can do anywhere from 20% to 39% depending on the opponents % when they get set up for the aforementioned fair chain.
jab - utilt - usmash is 24% and a solid kill confirm on anyone that gets sucked into it
fthrow does 13%

I know what the difference between a string and a combo is, these are frame traps that only the fastest nairs can break and thats only if Mewtwo does it at point blank. With any sort of spacing whatsoever, these are true.

The reason I bring this up is because when you compare it to other popular combos youll see just how weak these other combos are.
Diddys uthrow - uair - uair does 17%, banana - dtilt - usmash 21%
Marios dthrow - dair - bair is 27% but only works once, or dthrow - utitil - utilt - uair - uair does 24%.

Completely serious I think if there are categories of combo heavy characters, this is it



In terms of characters that have more than one method of combo starting, and have various combos doing over 20%. Some have combos that stop working at mid %'s but they are so powerful they make up for it.

Vinnie took way too long to get used to Sheik again after using and losing with Cloud, John just took advantage of it. I'm not saying #'s is bad, he's one of the most knowledgeable and tech-savvy player in Smash 4. But Vinnie definitely did not look like himself until game 2 of set 2.

No johns

... talking about Vinnie here

No top player, able to beat Zeros sheik in a ditto, can use the excuse that they didnt get used to their main in the space of 4 games.

 

[Dre89]

I'm gonna have to stop you here. Bowser is better in the head to head MU IMO, but has a better MU spread? No. DK has way easier time in neutral thanks to a neutral that isn't just jab (which is frame 7 albeit with quick FAF). DK has setups and plenty of ways to kill without the grab. The problem with Bowser is that has trouble securing stocks especially offstage (which is extremely important, dunno why you wanted to make it sound like it's so negligible). Having a poor offstage presence means that Bowser relies on beating characters on stage. This means you're naturally going to struggle against Fox, Villager, Sonic, ZSS and Rosalina. With his offstage defense so poor, gimps by good characters is bound to happen. Bowser's disadvantage is just as bad as DKs no doubt bro. There hasn't been a definitive way to land with Bowser (you can say muh Koopa Klaw, but I haven't seen many Bowsers use that to land).

I will say it right here and now.....Ryu does lose to DK. MK does not have a noticeable advantage over DK.

No offence but you sound like someone who doesn't have a lot of experience with these characters.

If DK doesn't kill someone with a grab, he doesn't kill them until 120 with moves like dsmash bair uair or bthrow. Bowser already killed people at 90 with stuff like with frame 11 downb (can combo from jab) and frame 9 bair.

Bowser's neutral being simpler doesn't mean it's worse. He just doesn't use as many tools as DK because he doesn't need to. Jab is a good spacing option and dashgrab beats so many options. DK doesn't have that dashgrab so he has to mix it up more, and struggles to approach defensive players because he doesn't have safe aerials or any burst that goes through shields. DK's neutral is only better against aggressive players who take to the air a lot. Anyone who knows the camp the fatties will have more trouble in neutral with Bowser than DK.

DK's superior gimping game is less meaningful against the top tiers because most of them are ungimpable anyway. His superior recovery is meaningful advantage though.

How on Earth is Bowser's advantage just as bad as DK's when he has a faster forward air, an aerial grab, and two downward options that can kill. One of which is fast and beats everything, the other of which has a slight stall the ruin shield timings and one shots said shields. I don't think you realise how often Bowser players kill people in disadvantage. Even firebreath is decent if you read that they won't commit to anything until you land. DK has zero landing options. All you have to do is be ready to shield his bair and whether he does it or not it's a free punish.

 

[DunnoBro]

Didn't Vinnie go 0-2 at KTAR? I can't recall the particulars but he did awful iirc I dunno what's going on with him lately but definitely not a result worth discussing for me.

Anti's WFT never got even close to taking any games at TBH5 so I dunno how anyone can say he "proved" wft can function at high level.

WFT is certainly not top 20. Even bowser has way better results then her just since the patch.

 

[TriTails]

How exactly does DK has better recovery than Bowser? Bowser definitely wins in vertical due to his surprisingly high double jump and for horizontal recovery, Whirling Fortress has great horizontal distance when mashed. I mean, without double jump, DK definitely is going to win in horizontal department, but Whirling Fortress ain't no joke either.

If any of you ask, from what I can observe, mashing gives Whirling Fortress less height but more horizontal distance. Don't mash the stuff when you're spiked, Koopas.

How on Earth is Bowser's advantage just as bad as DK's when he has a faster forward air, an aerial grab, and two downward options that can kill. One of which is fast and beats everything, the other of which has a slight stall the ruin shield timings and one shots said shields. I don't think you realise how often Bowser players kill people in disadvantage. Even firebreath is decent if you read that they won't commit to anything until you land. DK has zero landing options. All you have to do is be ready to shield his bair and whether he does it or not it's a free punish.

D-air has 40 frames of landing lag. That's super bad when you can just shield or roll.

Bowser Bomb doesn't have slight stall, it's probably enough for people to react and roll out of the way. That isn't slight. And both options lose to rolling away so...

Albeit, onstage, Bowser has an easier time than DK I imagine. I have tried Ding Dong numerous times before and noticed how short the kill percents' range are (Also, it doesn't kill heavyweights very well). I tested out Bowser Bop and it's much more flexible in kill percentages, and that's saying a lot to a character that does 19% in a single B-air. Bowser's dashgrab are gawdlike also, further complementing this. If U-throw to B-air is true, that's 25% right there. If Bowser Bop lands, that's 21% right there.

I suppose the patch did the good thing for Bowser. He now has consistent kill power and damage racking abilities. He is scary when he gets a grab now.

 

[ぱみゅ]

Not to sound mean, but there's a running joke of Vinnie still not recovering from his trip to Mexico.

Anyway, John played great, was able to overcome a terrible matchup (seriously, -2 is possibly too generous), and utilize WFT's tools well.
That being said, WFT comes as a heavy hitter character, with no particularly strong combo game (though Nair confirms are a thing), but high mobility and amazing punish capabilities. Kind of reminds me of Brawl's Mr. Game and Watch, except without his extra safety. All in all, I consider WFT a top 25ish character (just because the high tier is pretty stacked), able to make a splash once in a while but ultimately a mid tier.