Official Character Competitive Impressions - Tourneys, Tiers, Theories, Tactics

[meleebrawler]

This has probably been talked about a lot but it certainly feels like Cloud's up-aerial can basically beat any downwards hitting attack if properly spaced. The hitbox is so large it covers his entire top half, almost the handle of the sword and a whole character length away from him. If you're above Cloud, he's in the advantage to properly position himself with his grounded mobility in order to hit you with the disjointed half of up-aerial, and it can even beat out Link's down-air this way.

Not only this, the hitbox lasts from frame 7-25 without any animation changes to reduce its range. It's one of the longest up-aerials in the game in terms of hitbox length yet it auto-cancels one frame after the hitbox ends, on frame 26 (which I believe is actually unprecedented for any sword attack in the whole series). It also does a ton of damage and can KO decently if it's not completely stale so there's that too.

Even if you take Cloud to Final Destination, he'll still create his own platforms traps. Up-aerial is the platform.

I hit a For Glory Falcon 5 times in a row with it, as he kept persistently trying to dair through it.

On another Cloud-related note, it seems Climhazzard can't be stopped by clanking.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

If judged from the US tier style, I would see Mewtwo as probably solid mid tier now, but keep in mind that with 58 characters (!!!), "solid mid tier" means about 29th best.[/USER]

This made me think. There's a lot of strong opinions about whether a character is top 5, top 10, top 15, top banana, etc. But we have a massive cast of characters to work with. (I double checked and that 58 number includes the Miis. It also includes the yet-to-be-released Corrin and Bayonetta.) So here's some numbers that I'm calculating on the fly so I'm not even sure how this post will go yet.

All percents are rounded to one decimal place.

Top 5 = top 8.6% of the cast.
Top 10 = top 17.2% of the cast.
Top 15 = top 25.8% of the cast.
Top 20 = top 34.4% of the cast.
Top 25 = top 43.1% of the cast.
Top 30 = top 51.7% of the cast.

And in reverse:

Top 5% of the cast = top 2.
Top 10% of the cast = top 5.
Top 20% = top 11.
Top 25% = top 14.
Top 33.3...% = top 19.
Top 50% = top 29.

Remember decimals again are a thing so you can say that e.g. top 5% is equivalent to either the top 2 or the top 3 with a straight face.

So what I'm getting out of this is that claims over whether a character is, say, top 20, may be glossing over the sheer size of the roster in an attempt to emphasize how the character in question got improved. Because a character in the top 20 is better than a full two thirds of the roster in this game. Conversely, saying a character is top 30...doesn't mean much of anything, it just means you're in the top half of the cast. (Or if you're actually #30, then you're technically in the bottom half, which really isn't a stellar reference, although it does say hopeful things about your overall balance.)

Meanwhile, claiming a character is in the top 20% means you're claiming they're top 11 or so. Given the holy wars that tend to flare up over the membership of the top 10 list (currently 20-some-odd strong based on the cumulative claims of everyone, I'm sure), such statements should probably be made with a bit of gravitas.

Food for thought. (And an obligatory reminder that 58 characters includes the Miis, Corrin, and Bayonetta. Adjust the numbers according to local Mii rules and DLC availability.)

EDIT: Formatting goofs, I may have tagged someone in this post by accident. Also, "bow-wow" makes me think of Lil' Bow-Wow from Link's Awakening. Take that how you will.

 

[MajorMajora]

Showdown smash just had a Cloud take a Rosa to set 2 of Grand finals. She eventually adapted and forced him to switch to Ness (which he won with). They pointed out some ways that cloud has the tools to handle Rosa, so I'm wondering how that'll effect his placings, considering how he deals with one of the top tiers.

Cloud in general seems to be performing much better in tournaments than a lot of other DLC characters even a few days after release, which gives me hope of a non-rushdown character being added to the viables.

 

[Big-Cat]

I feel like I've been posting a lot of "know-it-all" posts lately so I'm going to calm it down after this. But let's not get ahead of ourselves here, Bowser's neutral puts the onus on him to get in, and he doesn't have safe attacks or frame data to help with that. Without a projectile or reflect, his neutral is exploitable by projectiles and faster frame data. He has a great pivot grab and jabs are safe-ish, but everything with him is a commitment and there isn't any free damage. Even pivot grab loses to all sorts of attacks. If he is on the ground in the neutral then Bowser is good at repelling attacks (defensive play), but many characters don't need to approach him. He is at disadvantage when he's forced to approach due to frame data. Zoners can really make Bowser fight an uphill battle, and Bowser's size enable punishes and enemy approach options that wouldn't work on other smaller characters.

Provided a Bowser main doesn't encounter some of Bowser's worst matchups on their way through a tournament bracket, it's completely possible for Bowser to make it pretty far, especially as uthrow combos let us punish unsafe or poor play far more efficiently. Characters in general aren't going to live as long against Bowser now. But somewhere down the line will be a Sonic, or a ZSS, or one of a number of characters that Bowser doesn't have tools to deal with, and uthrow combos won't make the difference in those matchups at the highest levels of play.

IMO.

He does have a projectile. Sort of. Fire Breath. One thing I've come to find with Bowser is that you corner with him. Tank through the hits and just come in, taking away their space, or force them to try to run around you.

How does ZSS not have a neutral game with strong mobility and one of the best aerials to use in neutral, N-Air which is +0 on shield.

Bowser's neutral game is leagues worse than ZSS, and it won't hold a candle to the top/high tiers.

btw...hitstun modifier my ***.


Hitstun increases with knockback, which increases

WITH

DAMAGE

Now if you mean a modifier that increases it more than the normal formula, then you might have something. But the way you're talking you really know zero about the game, and the competitive nature of this game more importantly.

I see I misunderstood the data then. Regardless, UThrow still has an incredibly high KBG (knockback growth) value that makes it more threatening for a combo followup as the percentages increase.

 

[Seagull Joe]

Bow-wow flow well and fits with the other goo-hahs. Koop-hah sounds weird AF to say CUZ it's a carbon copy, and she'll shock doesn't meet the sound.

People need to stop with this nonsensical naming of guaranteed combos.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

He does have a projectile. Sort of. Fire Breath. One thing I've come to find with Bowser is that you corner with him. Tank through the hits and just come in, taking away their space, or force them to try to run around you.

Speaking of which, is there a portion of Fire Breath's range that doesn't cause hitstun? I seem to recall something like that happening to me...

 

[S_B]

Showdown smash just had a Cloud take a Rosa to set 2 of Grand finals. She eventually adapted and forced him to switch to Ness (which he won with). They pointed out some ways that cloud has the tools to handle Rosa, so I'm wondering how that'll effect his placings, considering how he deals with one of the top tiers.

Cloud in general seems to be performing much better in tournaments than a lot of other DLC characters even a few days after release, which gives me hope of a non-rushdown character being added to the viables.

Vinnie's Cloud is INSANE as well:

I think Cloud definitely has potential.

 

[meleebrawler]

Speaking of which, is there a portion of Fire Breath's range that doesn't cause hitstun? I seem to recall something like that happening to me...

Yeah, there is also a mild push at that range too.

 

[Big-Cat]

Speaking of which, is there a portion of Fire Breath's range that doesn't cause hitstun? I seem to recall something like that happening to me...

It's the last fourth of the move's range (or some other fraction) where it provides no hitstun. Good estimation is where the flames are the least dense.

People need to stop with this nonsensical naming of guaranteed combos.

Showtime is the best one as it doesn't sound like something a baby would say.

 

[Thinkaman]

It seems I need to work on my jokes.

But seriously, I think spacing with fire to setup a high-reward grab is a very legit strategy that will make this character pretty formidable.

(And by "this character" I mean Lucas.)

 

[Nobie]

http://strawpoll.me/6318006

I made a poll to vote n Bowser's new combo name.

On the subject of names I demand we start calling Cloud's hyper-abusable dair "The Pogo Stick of Destiny"

Edit: Whoops I wrote dthrow instead of uthrow

I mean If you want to vote for calling it dthrow to uair you can I guess

*The Scrooge McDuck

 

[S_B]

*The Scrooge McDuck

Spin to Win, Shell Shock, Show Time, Koo-Pocalypse, Bowser Bop, Bowser Bash, Bowser Revolution... Take your pick.

Commentators are going to wind up calling it something either way...

 

[Remzi]

I know plenty about Charizard. His neutral is hot garbage, and his reward is below average. I don't see it. Mewtwo even kills more consistently than Zard.

Disagree with all of this. His neutral isn't the problem, it's that he struggles HARD to return to neutral from a disadvantageous state. Full jump nair, dtilt, jab mixups, and flamethrower are all fantastic tools in neutral. He also has one of the strongest kill throws in the game and phenomenal edgeguarding, killing is definitely not an issue. His issues are literally just that he gets combo'd ridiculously hard and he can't land.

 

[MajorMajora]

Spin to Win, Shell Shock, Show Time, Koo-Pocalypse, Bowser Bop, Bowser Bash, Bowser Revolution... Take your pick.

Commentators are going to wind up calling it something either way...

I think my favorite name of late is cloud's up smash being called the Tiger Woods.

That better stick.

 

[Smog Frog]

you guys are forgetting my grand suggestion for uthrow uair, the BLENDER BUSTER(rainbows necessary)

 

[S_B]

you guys are forgetting my grand suggestion for uthrow uair, the BLENDER BUSTER(rainbows necessary)

The Bowser Carouser (shoutouts to Tom Nook)

Oh, and on the subject of Bowser, I should also mention that KingKong won the tournament in Montreal a few days back:

Note that his "nemesis", Holy, wasn't there for this, and he's a ROB player, the same character that LeTroof lost to in GF (though it was damn close). ROB is definitely a PITA for Bowser, so we'll see how he does next time Holy is around.

 

[C0rvus]

Disagree with all of this. His neutral isn't the problem, it's that he struggles HARD to return to neutral from a disadvantageous state. Full jump nair, dtilt, jab mixups, and flamethrower are all fantastic tools in neutral. He also has one of the strongest kill throws in the game and phenomenal edgeguarding, killing is definitely not an issue. His issues are literally just that he gets combo'd ridiculously hard and he can't land.

His neutral might not be his biggest problem, but I think it is a problem. I also only said Mewtwo has an easier time killing. Zard is a rage tank with a kill throw lmao. I would love to see some high level Zard play, I feel like the character is very high commitment outside of like, jab, grab and Flamethrower. I used to think he was second best heavy but now I'm not so sure. Would love to be proven wrong though, my friend loves the character.

 

[Routa]

Danger danger!!! Red alert!!! Danger danger!!!

Jokes aside what other follow ups does Bowser have from U-throw?

Also what moves can "go through" Cloud's Uair? I wonder if Mii Swordfighter and Ike can hit through it with their Dairs.

 

[AnEventHorizon]

Cloud's up-aerial ... It's one of the longest up-aerials in the game in terms of hitbox length yet it auto-cancels one frame after the hitbox ends, on frame 26 (which I believe is actually unprecedented for any sword attack in the whole series).

Link's dair also has this property (hitbox ends on frame 64, autocancels on frame 65). Unless you meant it was the earliest autocanceling sword aerial.

 

[S_B]

Jokes aside what other follow ups does Bowser have from U-throw?

I'd like to direct you here:
http://smashboards.com/threads/showtime-bowsers-uthrow-setups-and-combos.426358/

 

[Blobface]

Danger danger!!! Red alert!!! Danger danger!!!

Jokes aside what other follow ups does Bowser have from U-throw?

Also what moves can "go through" Cloud's Uair? I wonder if Mii Swordfighter and Ike can hit through it with their Dairs.

Wizard's foot can beat/trade with Cloud U-air. Usually it trades.

 

[TTTTTsd]

Wizard's foot can beat/trade with Cloud U-air. Usually it trades.

Yeah, Cloud Uair isn't UNBEATABLE. The thing about it is that a lot of things that beat it are kinda slow like Wizard's Foot so Cloud can just Dtilt the landing and keep going.

Certainly a damn good move though.

Also his jab can crossup if it hits a shield. Neat I guess.

 

[TDK]

On the topic of nonsensical naming of garunteed combos, any sort of up air -> up air -> up air -> up air -> up B needs to be called the "stariway to heaven" because that's what it was called when Falcon could do it in 64.

Also, Bowser's is probably going to end up as the "bow wow".

 

[Aunt Jemima]

If a move is coming out that can beat Cloud's U-Air (mainly sword dairs) I prefer using U-Smash to cover it, the range is cray.

Also, why has nobody brought up Cloud's dash dance? It's amazing.

Cloud's dash dance has the same exact inputs as regular dash dancing... you just dash back and forth. Due to the fact that you're using foxtrots, it also allows you to control speed and distance. Along with that, due to Cloud's mobility (especially with Limit Break), his dash dance beats out FE Dance Trot. The only other character who can dash dance like this is G&W, but his timing is a bit slower, ruining it's efficiency. Along with that, Cloud has IASA frames on his init dash which allows him to cancel it into grounded moves (ie: jab, dtilt, utilt)

He has a ton of options out of this to keep himself unpredictable and terrifying. If he's dashing away, pivot F-Tilt covers opponents chasing you and beats hitboxes from dash attacks/rushing moves due to it's range. He slides crazy distance when using it, too, so you're naturally spaced out in case you hit a shield to avoid direct OoS punishes. Cloud's pivot grab will beat shields and can grab opponents going after him, along with taking certain characters out of moves (ie: spindash). Similar to his pivot F-Tilt, this slides relatively far, too. If he uses pivot F-Smash, it has tremendous reach, kill power and damage, which makes approaching him during this even riskier. Along with that, using reg Cross Slash will catch SH approaches and does 19%, along with giving you shield mix-ups if you hit one. Blade Beam can be used to keep up pressure and generally keep your space from the opponent. The LB versions of both of these moves are equally, if not more effective.

When dashing in, Cloud has quite a few options to punish opponents. He can use a boosted dash grab, which is generally a good option in case he doesn't have his Limit Break, as it allows him to create space and charge it. Cloud's dash attack seems to have really good priority, beating out a lot of moves and trading with others. Along with that, it has a bit of burst momentum and decent damage, making it a good option to replace dash grab when looking for damage specifically. If spaced properly, he can use Jab/U-Tilt to punish the opponent, Jab allowing him to tech chase, U-Tilt allowing him to go into gdlike juggles. If spaced decently, he can cover the dash in with D-Tilt, popping the opponent in the air for more juggles. He can also use Cross Slash/LB Cross Slash for really good damage. If punishing a laggy option, such as Smash Attacks, he can dash in with Finishing Touch to end it.

As he's foxtrotting during all of this, he will always have shield available and his SH/FH aerials. Coming back in with SH N-Air and SH U-Air are both really solid options, too. If Cloud is dashing back in, to avoid running into lasting hitboxes or avoiding another move, he can stall his dash in by using the turn-around dance trot, which dashes in place. He can then go straight into a regular dash or another foxtrot, allowing him to keep his momentum.

Dash dancing improves Cloud's neutral and advantage (tech chasing) a lot. pls use it more.

edit: also cloud's u-air is called "raise the roof", coined by @Locke 06 and will stay with us forever

 

[Mazdamaxsti]

People need to stop with this nonsensical naming of guaranteed combos.

Why not though? D-throw u-air kills we have named, and suddenly when it becomes a debate we just shouldn't have them? Having them and not having them isn't a required debate, there is no PROS and CONS for either side. You wanna call it the _________ you can. Simple as that.

 

[Deleted member]

You wanna call it the _________ you can. Simple as that.

No, it's not as simple as that. Both parties need to know the name in order to understand what's going on. It unnecessarily adds more terms to a player's Smash dictionary. Anyone who plays Smash can understand uthrow->uair. Only iconic and legendary combos such as Hoo Hah and Ken Combo receive names, and they received their name naturally. Not through people debating over what it should be called.

Furthermore, people waste time discussing the name. Like how we are doing now.

 

[S_B]

Furthermore, people waste time discussing the name. Like how we are doing now.

We're talking about a video game. This is leisure time by definition for all but the biggest tournament earners.

But moving away from the subject of what it's called and onto the subject of what it DOES, I'm actually a bit worried about what the move might do to some of Bowser's previously even or close to even matchups.

For example, I believe Bowser used to go somewhat even with Little Mac (especially with FB edgeguarding and Dtilt's strong horizontal-ish knockback), but now the matchup is very slanted toward Bowser because a few Uthrow followups and LM is in kill % range.

I wanted Bowser to do better, but I wonder if this is too polarizing of a move. At the same time, I don't think we'll see anything better given to Bowser in SSB4 that has any chance of making him even remotely more competitive.

If heavies were ever going to be (somewhat) balanced without resorting to gimmicks like hoo-haas, it'll have to come about in SSB5 because it's too big of a change for this game, I'd wager...

 

[Pazx]

I can't believe this thread has spent several pages discussing what to name a kill combo, this is ridiculous.

Besides, there's only one character that should have a combo called showtime...

 

[Radical Larry]

Look guys, let's stop trying to name Bowser's guaranteed U-Throw combos. You guys aren't even factoring in Bowser's U-Throw > U-Tilt and U-Throw > U-Smash. Just call it the "Bowser Combo" and be done with it, since that's all it looks like, he's goring his opponents with the attacks. No more of this naming nonsense.

We don't name any of Link's guaranteed follow-ups from his D-Throw, we don't do it with Mario nor Luigi nor Roy nor whichever character can get a guaranteed combo out of U-Throw or D-Throw! We did it for Diddy and ROB, but jeez, it's annoying as hell to give all the characters who have this some sort of special name.

At least we don't call Ganondorf's guaranteed combos from D-Throw "Getting Dunked On".

But now outside of this stuff...

We're talking about a video game. This is leisure time by definition for all but the biggest tournament earners.

But moving away from the subject of what it's called and onto the subject of what it DOES, I'm actually a bit worried about what the move might do to some of Bowser's previously even or close to even matchups.

For example, I believe Bowser used to go somewhat even with Little Mac (especially with FB edgeguarding and Dtilt's strong horizontal-ish knockback), but now the matchup is very slanted toward Bowser because a few Uthrow followups and LM is in kill % range.

I wanted Bowser to do better, but I wonder if this is too polarizing of a move. At the same time, I don't think we'll see anything better given to Bowser in SSB4 that has any chance of making him even remotely more competitive.

If heavies were ever going to be (somewhat) balanced without resorting to gimmicks like hoo-haas, it'll have to come about in SSB5 because it's too big of a change for this game, I'd wager...

Well, now since I'm going to get serious, this is probably something that Bowser really did need. Almost every character (except Marth and Lucina, as far as I know, because they're just that bad at throwing) has a guaranteed combo from any of their throws. Bowser's just no different now, and he shouldn't have been regardless. All of the other super heavyweights have guaranteed follow ups from at least one of their throws, and all benefited from having such a throw.

This is just a way to make Bowser's MUs balanced and decent for him, just like how all of those Link buffs helped him out in the end as well.

I can't believe this thread has spent several pages discussing what to name a kill combo, this is ridiculous.

Besides, there's only one character that should have a combo called showtime...

Well, Bowser's U-Throw combo ability isn't just a kill throw, and people often don't realize that the attack can't combo into U-Air until later damages and it requires Bowser's second jump as well. People don't realize he can deal some pretty hefty damage with U-Throw > U-Smash or link into a string of attacks with U-Throw > U-Tilt > N-Air.

 

[Y2Kay]

His neutral might not be his biggest problem, but I think it is a problem. I also only said Mewtwo has an easier time killing. Zard is a rage tank with a kill throw lmao. I would love to see some high level Zard play, I feel like the character is very high commitment outside of like, jab, grab and Flamethrower. I used to think he was second best heavy but now I'm not so sure. Would love to be proven wrong though, my friend loves the character.

Did just say to one of zard's best mains that you wish you could see high level Zard play? Lol man

 

[S_B]

I can't believe this thread has spent several pages discussing what to name a kill combo, this is ridiculous.

Besides, there's only one character that should have a combo called showtime...

Hey, Snake isn't the only one who says "Showtime"...

Well, now since I'm going to get serious, this is probably something that Bowser really did need. Almost every character (except Marth and Lucina, as far as I know, because they're just that bad at throwing) has a guaranteed combo from any of their throws. Bowser's just no different now, and he shouldn't have been regardless. All of the other super heavyweights have guaranteed follow ups from at least one of their throws, and all benefited from having such a throw.

This is just a way to make Bowser's MUs balanced and decent for him, just like how all of those Link buffs helped him out in the end as well.

He definitely DID need something, and I'm happy that Bowser, like DK, has a means of quickly flipping a match around in his favor that can reasonably be expected to be used against higher tiers being played by skilled players, but it's the middle/low tiers I'm worried about.

Eh, I'm probably jumping the gun. Let's see how people adapt to it. They may even find ways around it outright, or they'll adapt their game to simply not get grabbed against Bowser.

At the very least, players trying hard to not get grabbed may create other openings Bowser can exploit, which was half of his problem to start with: no way to apply pressure.

Now, Bowser just being NEAR you is pressuring...

 

[Radical Larry]

He definitely DID need something, and I'm happy that Bowser, like DK, has a means of quickly flipping a match around in his favor that can reasonably be expected to be used against higher tiers being played by skilled players, but it's the middle/low tiers I'm worried about.

Eh, I'm probably jumping the gun. Let's see how people adapt to it. They may even find ways around it outright, or they'll adapt their game to simply not get grabbed against Bowser.

At the very least, players trying hard to not get grabbed may create other openings Bowser can exploit, which was half of his problem to start with: no way to apply pressure.

Now, Bowser just being NEAR you is pressuring...

Actually, it's impossible to escape a U-Throw > U-Air only because the U-Air, at Bowser's head, is intangible all the way to his last active hitbox (the intangibility starts frame 3, hitbox at 8, both end at 13), which means the only character remotely capable of getting out if it, if they're lucky is...Little Mac. He's the only character with an N-Air capable of hitting Bowser, at Frame 2. But the fact of the matter is, since Bowser's hitbox shifts when the attack starts, not even Little Mac can beat it.

U-Throw > U-Air is very deadly and impossible to counter with an attack and an air dodge. Too much hurtstun, too late attacks and too fast of a combo throw for opponents to beat.

Also note that it's virtually impossible, due to the hitstun on opponents, to even avoid his U-Tilt and U-Smash attacks from U-Throw.

 

[Man Li Gi]

Bowser is significantly better than DK now, so if DK is 25th then 15th is not unreasonable for Bowser. He's a whole tier above him.

Bowser's neutral, disadvantage and now advantage are better and he's simpler. Only meaningful advantage DK has over Bowser is off stage. He's literally DK but with a lot DK's weaknesses either toned down (disadvantage) or completely removed (ability to get grabs against defensive players, losing the kill window etc.)

I'm gonna have to stop you here. Bowser is better in the head to head MU IMO, but has a better MU spread? No. DK has way easier time in neutral thanks to a neutral that isn't just jab (which is frame 7 albeit with quick FAF). DK has setups and plenty of ways to kill without the grab. The problem with Bowser is that has trouble securing stocks especially offstage (which is extremely important, dunno why you wanted to make it sound like it's so negligible). Having a poor offstage presence means that Bowser relies on beating characters on stage. This means you're naturally going to struggle against Fox, Villager, Sonic, ZSS and Rosalina. With his offstage defense so poor, gimps by good characters is bound to happen. Bowser's disadvantage is just as bad as DKs no doubt bro. There hasn't been a definitive way to land with Bowser (you can say muh Koopa Klaw, but I haven't seen many Bowsers use that to land).

has an advantage over of variating degrees. Really, I would say DK is a good character in a vacuum, but In context with other's he simply isn't. When a character like him struggles vs the majority of Top Ten, I don't have high expectations foreither. Having a supposedly kill confirm off of up-throw is very good, however this buff really affect the characters that either lose neutral to bowser or go even with him in neutral but against top tiers like who all gets ridiculous reward off of simple actions or from grabbing and can greatly extend their advantage on someone who's a giant hurtbox you still going to have serious problems. Now his MU's with Top tiers did get better of course, but having better reward while having a mediocre neutral and near awful disadvantage doesn't = top 15 or top 20 character. Bowser certainly did rise in viability though compared to other characters.

Having a kill confirm is still huge against high/mid/low tiers as evident by DK.

I will say it right here and now.....Ryu does lose to DK. MK does not have a noticeable advantage over DK.

 

[Mazdamaxsti]

No, it's not as simple as that. Both parties need to know the name in order to understand what's going on. It unnecessarily adds more terms to a player's Smash dictionary. Anyone who plays Smash can understand uthrow->uair. Only iconic and legendary combos such as Hoo Hah and Ken Combo receive names, and they received their name naturally. Not through people debating over what it should be called.

Furthermore, people waste time discussing the name. Like how we are doing now.

"Only legendary combos" a combo doesn't have to be legendary to have a name. Thundercats is the name for Marth's u-smash in Melee, is an u-smash legendary? Ramen Noodle is just grabbing the edge unexpectadly (don't know how to explain that one), is that legendary? Some combos/tricks are just named after players, like mangle, which is just up-bing at an angle to avoid an attack (if im correct), WHICH BY THE WAY has been argued that it is the m2k angle, so theres some debate to the name. Some tech is called weird names too, like Hup Cancelling.

A combo/trick doesn't have to be legendary to have a name. A lot of combos get names, a lot of techs get names. A debate about names isn't wasting anybodys time except for, apparently, yours. So then why argue? If you don't wanna waste your time, then don't lmao. Your choice what to talk about.

 

[Peppermint1201]

Wow, this thread really goes downhill when Thinkaman isn't around.

Anyway, what do you guys think of Olimar? His results seem alright, I guess. Some 9ths, 17ths, etc. but nothing amazing. What does his matchup spread look like?

 

[Ghostbone]

I will say it right here and now.....Ryu does lose to DK. MK does not have a noticeable advantage over DK.

MK vs DK is almost as bad as ZSS vs DK lol.

DK being a heavy has like a 30% range where dash attack will kill him, and the %s he dies from dash attack overlap the %s where he dies from d-throw so you're basically screwed.

 

[S_B]

Actually, it's impossible to escape a U-Throw > U-Air only because the U-Air, at Bowser's head, is intangible all the way to his last active hitbox (the intangibility starts frame 3, hitbox at 8, both end at 13), which means the only character remotely capable of getting out if it, if they're lucky is...Little Mac. He's the only character with an N-Air capable of hitting Bowser, at Frame 2. But the fact of the matter is, since Bowser's hitbox shifts when the attack starts, not even Little Mac can beat it.

U-Throw > U-Air is very deadly and impossible to counter with an attack and an air dodge. Too much hurtstun, too late attacks and too fast of a combo throw for opponents to beat.

Also note that it's virtually impossible, due to the hitstun on opponents, to even avoid his U-Tilt and U-Smash attacks from U-Throw.

Oh, I just meant like jumping out past a certain %, which you definitely can do.

 

[Luigi player]

MK vs DK is almost as bad as ZSS vs DK lol.

DK being a heavy has like a 30% range where dash attack will kill him, and the %s he dies from dash attack overlap the %s where he dies from d-throw so you're basically screwed.

Would that really be that bad, though? I mean DK vs ZSS is by no means good for him, but... I wonder how people would see the MU had (DK)Will not messed up the jump of his last cargo in the set vs Nairo which would've won him the set.

 

[Nobie]

Wow, this thread really goes downhill when Thinkaman isn't around.

Anyway, what do you guys think of Olimar? His results seem alright, I guess. Some 9ths, 17ths, etc. but nothing amazing. What does his matchup spread look like?

Logic just won last week's Xanadu with Alph. Though the competition was thinner than usual, I think that's a strong case of player and character matching.

Though Logic also once said he likes glass cannons, so maybe Mewtwo will come back...?

 

[thehard]

I've been thinking. Do we as a community overrate the ability to approach? It's something brought up a lot when mentioning underwhelming characters; "X can't approach". But do they need to? Or is it a necessity born out of the best character in the game likely being able to out camp them?