Official Character Competitive Impressions - Tourneys, Tiers, Theories, Tactics

[Pazx]

Does Robin get 30% combos and kills out of an option whose only real counterplay is pre emptive jumping and massively disjointed hitboxes?

The counterplay to arc thunder is preemptive jumping and massively disjointed hitboxes, so yes, Robin does exactly that.

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

 

[FullMoon]

Geez, I spend an entire day in a tournament and this thread is still going on about Bowser.

 

[meleebrawler]

As for Mewtwo, I'm not really sure why M2 mains think they win it and I'm not really sure where they think they have the results to back it up. I'm also surprised they haven't discussed it with us first (or maybe they have and we've just been inactive, in which case lel soz ).

To make a long story short, Ness just has a real hard time getting in on Mewtwo's superior range and mobility even pre-patch. Ness's juggles aren't that potent on Mewtwo because of this. PK Thunder edgeguards are also largely ineffective.

Pre-patch it was considered even since PSI Magnet and fsmash meant Mewtwo couldn't be as liberal with shadow ball as he'd like and the mobility advantage wasn't too significant. Now the advantage is bigger, making things more difficult for Ness overall.

 

[Wintermelon43]

Am I the only one that realizes that the new characters and the majorly buffed characters in every patch all ended up way lower then what people said in a week in the end (except for Ike and Meta Knight)? Like, look:

:
What people thought of him before 1.0.8: 45th-48th

What people thought of him immediately after 1.0.8: 30th

What people think of him now: 40th

:

What people thought of him before 1.0.8: 35th - 40th

What people thought of him immediately after 1.0.8: 25th - 30th

What people think of him now: 37th - 40th

and :

They were buffed muitiple times

Before being buffed, people thought they were 40th - 45th

Then people thought they were 25th

Now people think Marth is 38th - 40th and Lucina 45th - 48th

:
What people thought of him before 1.1.0: 33rd - 35th

What people thought of him immediatatly after 1.1.0: 15th

What people think of him now: 25th or 26th

:
What people thought of her before 1.1.0: Bottom 5

What people thought of her immediatatly after 1.1.0: 25th

What people think of her now: 40th

:
What people thought of him before 1.1.0: 45th - 50th

What people thought of him immediatatly after 1.1.0: 17th - 20th

What people think of him now: 30th - 35th (Except for Esam)

None of these opinions go towards me, It's the general consensus that I put in.

So yeah, Bowser and Mewtwo aren't top 25

 

[FlynnCL]

This has probably been talked about a lot but it certainly feels like Cloud's up-aerial can basically beat any downwards hitting attack if properly spaced. The hitbox is so large it covers his entire top half, almost the handle of the sword and a whole character length away from him. If you're above Cloud, he's in the advantage to properly position himself with his grounded mobility in order to hit you with the disjointed half of up-aerial, and it can even beat out Link's down-air this way.

Not only this, the hitbox lasts from frame 7-25 without any animation changes to reduce its range. It's one of the longest up-aerials in the game in terms of hitbox length yet it auto-cancels one frame after the hitbox ends, on frame 26 (which I believe is actually unprecedented for any sword attack in the whole series). It also does a ton of damage and can KO decently if it's not completely stale so there's that too.

Even if you take Cloud to Final Destination, he'll still create his own platforms traps. Up-aerial is the platform.

 

[Dre89]

Am I the only one that realizes that the new characters and the majorly buffed characters in every patch all ended up way lower then what people said in a week in the end (except for Ike and Meta Knight)? Like, look:

:
What people thought of him before 1.0.8: 45th-48th

What people thought of him immediately after 1.0.8: 30th

What people think of him now: 40th

:

What people thought of him before 1.0.8: 35th - 40th

What people thought of him immediately after 1.0.8: 25th - 30th

What people think of him now: 37th - 40th

and :

They were buffed muitiple times

Before being buffed, people thought they were 40th - 45th

Then people thought they were 25th

Now people think Marth is 38th - 40th and Lucina 45th - 48th

:
What people thought of him before 1.1.0: 33rd - 35th

What people thought of him immediatatly after 1.1.0: 15th

What people think of him now: 25th or 26th

:
What people thought of her before 1.1.0: Bottom 5

What people thought of her immediatatly after 1.1.0: 25th

What people think of her now: 40th

:
What people thought of him before 1.1.0: 45th - 50th

What people thought of him immediatatly after 1.1.0: 17th - 20th

What people think of him now: 30th - 35th (Except for Esam)

None of these opinions go towards me, It's the general consensus that I put in.

So yeah, Bowser and Mewtwo aren't top 25

Bowser is significantly better than DK now, so if DK is 25th then 15th is not unreasonable for Bowser. He's a whole tier above him.

Bowser's neutral, disadvantage and now advantage are better and he's simpler. Only meaningful advantage DK has over Bowser is off stage. He's literally DK but with a lot DK's weaknesses either toned down (disadvantage) or completely removed (ability to get grabs against defensive players, losing the kill window etc.)

 

[Smooth Criminal]

Wintermelon43

Noooo way in helllllllll is Robin in 30th-40th now. Those buffs were significant, just like Mewtwo's.

Smooth Criminal

 

[StarshipGroove]

Am I the only one that realizes that the new characters and the majorly buffed characters in every patch all ended up way lower then what people said in a week in the end (except for Ike and Meta Knight)? Like, look:

buffs aren't that relevant to characters' position in the tier list, unless they convince some top level players to pick them up (or unless the buffs are so absurd they distort the game's balance).
Yeah Mewtwo has gotten big buffs, but if no really good player picks him up then his results and tier position will stay where they are. Inversely Sheik and Zss could get nerfed, but they'll stay on top as long as the indisputed best players use them. Sakurai can nerf Sheik but he can't nerf ZeRo.

 

[Nobie]

@TheReflexWonder has mentioned wanting to pick up Mewtwo, who he sees now as a much more cohesive character.

Way back, I wrote about the idea that the reason Japan and the US rate a character like Mewtwo very differently was that Japan thinks about optimization and perfection of a character, whereas the US thinks about how safe the character is to reliably win with. Both are valid ways to make a tier list, but it explains why Mewtwo can go from B- to F depending on who was viewing the character.

It's of course very possible that other Mewtwos and I are overestimating the changes, but what makes Mewtwo's changes so different from past character buffs is that it's more than just having frame data tweaked, getting some hoo hah setup, or having a new kill throw. I keep stressing how big the mobility changes are because it's a holistic upgrade to everything Mewtwo is about, instead of just one or two new things to aim for.

It's not just that "Mewtwo runs faster" because characters who move quickly on the ground aren't necessarily great (though a lot of them are). Rather, the greatly buffed run and walk speed fit perfectly with Mewtwo's game plan. In neutral, a better walk and run means better spacing of tilts, better whiff punishes, and better approaches. In advantage, it means being able to chase down opponents you wouldn't have otherwise, being able to catch more landings, and (with the new hitbox buffs) getting better and more powerful juggles. In disadvantage, Mewtwo's still in trouble but has an easier time creating distance to reset to neutral.

If judged from the US tier style, I would see Mewtwo as probably solid mid tier now, but keep in mind that with 58 characters (!!!), "solid mid tier" means about 29th best.

If it's the Japanese tier style though, where the character is assumed nearing optimization, then I wouldn't be surprised if Mewtwo ends up high tier.

Next topic:

I got a chance to see Soronie's Shulk yesterday and I must say that she makes the character look quite impressive, even if his frame data flaws still hamper him noticeably. One thing that really caught my eye was Soronie's smart use of Shield Monado. LIke, when you watch Shulks on For Glory, they'll use Shield...sometimes... maybe when their damage is high and they want to live longer. Soronie would use Shield pretty regularly FOR APPROACHING. Against projectile users, just...walk, shield, walk, shield, to corner them, like Shulk was the Terminator. And in games that go to time, the reduced damage can be the difference between having more or less damage than the opponent.

 

[StarshipGroove]

I wonder if shield Shulk + crouch cancelling is a viable defensive tool against low knockback moves.

 

[Smog Frog]

the scale of buffs was actually pretty big for 1 patch. universal landing lag reductions, hitbox adjustments, and movement speed adjustments, even. i actually feel inspired to pick him up again, after i lab out his combos and tech. do i think he's top 25? i actually dont have an opinion yet. he is definitely leaps and bounds above the low tiers he was grouped with() pre patch.

 

[Wintermelon43]

Wintermelon43

Noooo way in helllllllll is Robin in 30th-40th now. Those buffs were significant, just like Mewtwo's.

Smooth Criminal

I wasn't going by my own opinion, I was going by what people generally think.

meant to make it 30th-35th though, so thanks

 

[Balgorxz]

Am I the only one that realizes that the new characters and the majorly buffed characters in every patch all ended up way lower then what people said in a week in the end (except for Ike and Meta Knight)? Like, look:

:
What people thought of him before 1.0.8: 45th-48th

What people thought of him immediately after 1.0.8: 30th

What people think of him now: 40th

:

What people thought of him before 1.0.8: 35th - 40th

What people thought of him immediately after 1.0.8: 25th - 30th

What people think of him now: 37th - 40th

and :

They were buffed muitiple times

Before being buffed, people thought they were 40th - 45th

Then people thought they were 25th

Now people think Marth is 38th - 40th and Lucina 45th - 48th

:
What people thought of him before 1.1.0: 33rd - 35th

What people thought of him immediatatly after 1.1.0: 15th

What people think of him now: 25th or 26th

:
What people thought of her before 1.1.0: Bottom 5

What people thought of her immediatatly after 1.1.0: 25th

What people think of her now: 40th

:
What people thought of him before 1.1.0: 45th - 50th

What people thought of him immediatatly after 1.1.0: 17th - 20th

What people think of him now: 30th - 35th (Except for Esam)

None of these opinions go towards me, It's the general consensus that I put in.

So yeah, Bowser and Mewtwo aren't top 25

what are those sources, falco and WFT trainer are not even close to the low tierness of marth and charizard.
I mean they actually have tournament representations and locals wins

 

[Wintermelon43]

what are those sources, falco and WFT trainer are not even close to the low tierness of marth and charizard.
I mean they actually have tournament representations and locals wins

I agree. It's just what everyone says about them.

Is NO ONE going to read the sentence on the bottom sayinf these aren't my opinions?

 

[Thinkaman]

Hey guys, I'm back. What does everything think about Bowser?

 

[S_B]

Seagull Joe didn't break Zero's streak. The idea that he was the only person in Smash Wii U that beat Zero outside of Grand Finals isn't exactly a super good slogan for a player. He didn't beat Zero when it mattered, in losers bracket to knock him out. the only one who did that was Nairo.

Besides that, you get a select few people at Xanadu, and the MD/VA region in general.

There's a reason MD/VA got stomped against Midwest in the crew battle. Xanadu's pretty free.

And again, all of this is irrelevant because the key focus is how a Bowser player is improving within his scene with all other variables (except for the buffs of a few other characters) being equal.

This is the start of data gathering, and given how few Bowser players are out there being streamed in tournaments, it's the best we have to actually figure out how much the buff actually benefits him.

As I said before, we can sit around here and a talk about how much we think buffs mean to a character, but it's all ultimately meaningless as tournaments are where rubber meets road.

Sheik's archetype is to be safe and doesnt smash 4 reward you the most for being safe? If you either get rid of her KO setups and that pretty much guts her as a character and she ends up like brawl sheik.

They could remove the tinder combo and Sheik would still be perfectly safe.

 

[MajorMajora]

Hey guys, I'm back. What does everything think about Bowser?

He has an 80%+ kill confirm off grab and someone got angry that someone else insisted this made him top 15 material.

Personally I think his neutral game and frame data are still too weak to place significantly outside locals except in rare cases.

 

[Nobie]

I do worry that Bowser's new up throw has made Side B somewhat redundant, as aside from being able to do it in the air why would you ever go for the slower, shorter range Koopa Flying Press when you can use the insane pivot/dash grab range into normal up throw.

 

[Y2Kay]

Hey guys, I'm back. What does everything think about Bowser?

good to see you back, thinkaman

Your house is totally intact, just another day in the thread

 

[S_B]

Hey guys, I'm back. What does everything think about Bowser?

I think this. A lot.

 

[Antonykun]

I'm going to sound like a jerk but...
Really?
"Shell Shock"
Is this community to cool for "Down Throw Up Air"

 

[Emblem Lord]

Shell Shock sounds GAWDLIKE

Knock knock, you about tah get SHELL SHOCKED!!!

 

[S_B]

I'm going to sound like a jerk but...
Really?
"Shell Shock"
Is this community to cool for "Down Throw Up Air"

Most call it the "Koo-pah".

And I figured it's better to give it a name before something even dumber catches on, like the "Bowser Bop" or something...

 

[Smog Frog]

but you see, it isnt down throw up air, its up throw up air

also i assume it was from the hoo-hah meme, people want it to persist. basically a 2 word phrase that means "kill setup from throw into up air"

i want it to be called blender buster tbh

 

[Nobie]

I'm partial to "Boo-Zah," but only because it reminds me of this Russian video game show talking about a bootleg "Super Mario 16." https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JetfzNDvGfw

 

[**Gilgamesh**]

Hey guys, I'm back. What does everything think about Bowser?

has an advantage over of variating degrees. Really, I would say DK is a good character in a vacuum, but In context with other's he simply isn't. When a character like him struggles vs the majority of Top Ten, I don't have high expectations foreither. Having a supposedly kill confirm off of up-throw is very good, however this buff really affect the characters that either lose neutral to bowser or go even with him in neutral but against top tiers like who all gets ridiculous reward off of simple actions or from grabbing and can greatly extend their advantage on someone who's a giant hurtbox you still going to have serious problems. Now his MU's with Top tiers did get better of course, but having better reward while having a mediocre neutral and near awful disadvantage doesn't = top 15 or top 20 character. Bowser certainly did rise in viability though compared to other characters.

Having a kill confirm is still huge against high/mid/low tiers as evident by DK.

 

[Y2Kay]

Shell Shock sounds GAWDLIKE

Knock knock, you about tah get SHELL SHOCKED!!!

Or we could call it the Bow-wow? Right? Riiiiiiight?

or not, that's cool.......

 

[Emblem Lord]

DK beats Ryu guys.

Yall...didn't know that?

I mean just in the match of course. Ryu is def a better char.

As for Bowser vs top tiers...eh i can see him doing better vs Sheik and maaaaaaaaaaaaaaybe sonic then DK. thats it though.

But wtf do i know...I just uppercu...I MEAN I SWING THIS BUSTER SWORD ALL DAY NOOBS!!!

 

[adom4]

Showtime is waaaaay better than Shellshock.

 

[S_B]

As for Bowser vs top tiers...eh i can see him doing better vs Sheik and maaaaaaaaaaaaaaybe sonic then DK. thats it though.

But wtf do i know...I just uppercu...I MEAN I SWING THIS BUSTER SWORD ALL DAY NOOBS!!!

Bowser's matchup against pretty much any fastfaller did just get better. Being able to confirm a kill off a grab is amazing, especially against characters who are so GD quick that the only thing Bowser can land on them half the time IS grabs...

It remains to be seen just HOW much "better" this makes those matchups, however.

But I think the irony of Bowser was that, for all his kill power, he had a hard time killing in competitive matches because all of his actual kill moves are very easy to avoid if you know how.

 

[Vyrnx]

Uthrow to bair might be the most ridiculous thing Bowser got this patch. It's insane. A Jiggs player couldn't kill, and once I got max rage I grabbed him when he was at 40%, uthrow, killed him with bair. 40%. Though that pretty much is just a situations where Jiggs suckiness shines through.

Uthrow to nair I've seen do anywhere from 20-30 damage because nair is inconsistent, but 30 damage... And uthrow to utilt/fair are nice too. Plus once the opponent is out of shell shock range (that felt cool to say), he still has his kill throws.

I'm still curious to see whether these "combos" are actually real or not. If they are though, Bowser might have the best grab reward of any character. Still barely top 25 even with that, his neutral and disadvantage, especially his disadvantage, have utterly no redeeming qualities other than he lives for a long time.

 

[S_B]

Uthrow to bair might be the most ridiculous thing Bowser got this patch. It's insane. A Jiggs player couldn't kill, and once I got max rage I grabbed him when he was at 40%, uthrow, killed him with bair. 40%. Though that pretty much is just a situations where Jiggs suckiness shines through.

Uthrow to nair I've seen do anywhere from 20-30 damage because nair is inconsistent, but 30 damage... And uthrow to utilt/fair are nice too. Plus once the opponent is out of shell shock range (that felt cool to say), he still has his kill throws.

I'm still curious to see whether these "combos" are actually real or not. If they are though, Bowser might have the best grab reward of any character. Still barely top 25 even with that, his neutral and disadvantage, especially his disadvantage, have utterly no redeeming qualities other than he lives for a long time.

UThrow to Bair is real on a number of characters, depending on %, and I believe the most Nair can do is 24%, as it hits four times for 6% each (someone sanity check me on that?), though it's rare to get all four hits to chain together.

 

[Seagull Joe]

's are lucky if they can avoid and in bracket.

 

[Plain Yogurt]

I got a chance to see Soronie's Shulk yesterday and I must say that she makes the character look quite impressive, even if his frame data flaws still hamper him noticeably. One thing that really caught my eye was Soronie's smart use of Shield Monado. LIke, when you watch Shulks on For Glory, they'll use Shield...sometimes... maybe when their damage is high and they want to live longer. Soronie would use Shield pretty regularly FOR APPROACHING. Against projectile users, just...walk, shield, walk, shield, to corner them, like Shulk was the Terminator. And in games that go to time, the reduced damage can be the difference between having more or less damage than the opponent.

Yep. As long as you aren't losing massively there's not much wrong with going into Shield mode and taking advantage of the damage reduction/improved shield. If I'm fighting a rushdown character that isn't Sheik or Fox I do this pretty often because their damage output is already usually pretty low to the point where Shulk can punish them on hit if his percent's low enough. And if they camp you out...who really cares? If you aren't losing that's 16 more seconds towards time out and if you are just...shut it off. I sometimes think people forget that Shulk can do that when the art he picks isn't working out or isn't needed anymore. The cooldown's not that long. Anyways, Shulk's attack power reduction during Shield is probably too much, but it's really an underrated art by a lot of people. Not that I blame them cause eww the penalties on it, but yeah.

I wonder if shield Shulk + crouch cancelling is a viable defensive tool against low knockback moves.

It IS but that's just a cue to shield his inevitable DTilt and grab him. When it does happen though it's almost comical how little he moves. Just watch the Shulk trailer again.

 

[S_B]

's are lucky if they can avoid and in bracket.

Yup. The Sonic matchup is still horrendous for Bowser, as is ZSS.

The one other buff that would probably make these matchups more tolerable would be a reduction on FB's ending lag, as it could then be an actual zoning tool instead of the risk-riddled garbage excuse for a move it is right now.

 

[FullMoon]

I think in general ZSS just says "no" to any attempts of the heavies to get any higher than high-mid.

And that's not even considering other relevant MUs they lose.

 

[MajorMajora]

http://strawpoll.me/6318006

I made a poll to vote n Bowser's new combo name.

On the subject of names I demand we start calling Cloud's hyper-abusable dair "The Pogo Stick of Destiny"

Edit: Whoops I wrote dthrow instead of uthrow

I mean If you want to vote for calling it dthrow to uair you can I guess

 

[Hitman JT]

's are lucky if they can avoid and in bracket.

Which I just did yesterday

 

[Seagull Joe]

Which I just did yesterday

Is this your swf name Le troof or is this someone else lmao?

Edit: Read "Former usernames" section. Good job yesterday.

 

[Mazdamaxsti]

Bow-wow flow well and fits with the other goo-hahs. Koop-hah sounds weird AF to say CUZ it's a carbon copy, and she'll shock doesn't meet the sound.