Official Character Competitive Impressions - Tourneys, Tiers, Theories, Tactics

[Big-Cat]

Charizard? Top 15? I can't see how. I hate to bring up tournaments, but you'd think he'd have a larger presence if that were the case.

 

[TTTTTsd]

Charizard? Top 15? I can't see how. I hate to bring up tournaments, but you'd think he'd have a larger presence if that were the case.

I think he means Bowser, dawg. In which case IDK if Bowser's that high either, but pretty close! He's certainly a lot more relevant now.

 

[C0rvus]

Bowser was like 25th before the patch. Most people who have versed proper Bowsers thought that. The people who thought he was bottom 10 were the ones who knew nothing about the meta and thought you were supposed to do stuff like space with firebreath and dtilt.

Character is easily top 15 because he's basically a heavy pre patch Luigi. High damage and kill confirms out of his low counterplay dashgrab. Dashgrab is almost always the best option now because it covers several options at once due to the fact it goes through shields and its range beats out many hitboxes.

He was already the biggest rage abuser in the game and now he abuses it even harder because he doesn't lose the window to do it due to uthrow having low KBG, but allows his uair to kill earlier.

I am genuinely curious about the notion of Bowser being 25th pre-patch. That sounds utterly ridiculous to me. Like, I've been to the Bowser boards, I've played the character, I've seen some of what tournament level Bowsers have to say. I don't see it. What am I missing? Not that I considered him bottom 10, but come on. I can see him being pretty good now, maybe top half of the roster, but not top 15.

 

[Big-Cat]

Whoops, I completely misread that. Sorry. Still don't think top 15 for Bowser, as much as I'd like that.

 

[Mario766]

There's no way Bowser, with all his flaws still in tact, is top 15.


Zero chance.

Id MUCH rather give him those stages than give him a free limit break charge every 20 seconds.

Did you even see the matches? All he did was hit people, run away to the platform and charge limit break. He must have got like 3+ every single stock.

Giving cloud platforms is far more desirable than giving him free limit breaks, he might as well have no weaknesses.

He won't GET free limit breaks, not if you actually pressure him. Komorikiri doing that against people who have no clue how to play against the character doesn't say much.

Cloud is gonna annihilate on BF/DL even harder, and the platforms won't change much. If you can't pressure Cloud on SV platform, you can't do it on BF. It also gives him massive up-air chain potentional and down-b covers every option if you are on the platform and forced to land, because it hits incredibly high up.

 

[S_B]

Speaking of Bowser: http://challonge.com/2p62ifya

LeTroof just went all the way to grand finals with Bowser, lost to Mr. Eric's ROB, came down to last stock, last hit each game.

As for Bowser's ranking, time will have to tell, but the real point here is that Bowser now at least has a real reward for getting in whereas before he needed to wait for a hard read.

That said, he still loses the neutral and loses it HARD to many characters, but again, he can flip that with a few good grabs, just like DK can.

Again, we'll see, but that link is a some data for the pile. Still don't think Bowser is gonna wind up top 15, though...

 

[PK Gaming]

Not going to lie, these "X" character is now top [insert number] posts are absolutely insufferable

PS: Robin is clearly top 21 you guys.

 

[S_B]

Not going to lie, these "X" character is now top [insert number] posts are absolutely insufferable

PS: Robin is clearly top 21 you guys.

There's only two things I can't stand: people who are intolerant of other people's cultures...AND THE DUTCH!!

 

[Browny]

He won't GET free limit breaks, not if you actually pressure him. Komorikiri doing that against people who have no clue how to play against the character doesn't say much.

Cloud is gonna annihilate on BF/DL even harder, and the platforms won't change much. If you can't pressure Cloud on SV platform, you can't do it on BF. It also gives him massive up-air chain potentional and down-b covers every option if you are on the platform and forced to land, because it hits incredibly high up.

So you didnt see the matches then?

They couldn't pressure him because every hit he got, he didn't follow up he just ran away. There's nothing the enemy can do if they take like, an ftilt and cloud runs away. SV gave him far more room to do so.

It has nothing to do with pressuring him on a platform (clear indication that you didn't watch the matches where he was camping) its to do with the fact that he kept running away as far as he could and fighting where the platform would help him recover.

 

[Ulevo]

Bowser was like 25th before the patch. Most people who have versed proper Bowsers thought that. The people who thought he was bottom 10 were the ones who knew nothing about the meta and thought you were supposed to do stuff like space with firebreath and dtilt.

Character is easily top 15 because he's basically a heavy pre patch Luigi. High damage and kill confirms out of his low counterplay dashgrab. Dashgrab is almost always the best option now because it covers several options at once due to the fact it goes through shields and its range beats out many hitboxes.

He was already the biggest rage abuser in the game and now he abuses it even harder because he doesn't lose the window to do it due to uthrow having low KBG, but allows his uair to kill earlier.

Characters that are definitely better than Bowser:



Characters I would argue are better than 1.1.4 Bowser:



I have a very difficult time comprehending this top 15 nonsense. These picks are rather generous, too.

Also, rage Meta Knight is by far the most potent rage abuser in this game. There may be characters that come close, Bowser is not one of them.

 

[Mario766]

So you didnt see the matches then?

They couldn't pressure him because every hit he got, he didn't follow up he just ran away. There's nothing the enemy can do if they take like, an ftilt and cloud runs away. SV gave him far more room to do so.

It has nothing to do with pressuring him on a platform (clear indication that you didn't watch the matches where he was camping) its to do with the fact that he kept running away as far as he could and fighting where the platform would help him recover.

You're complaining about a character who is not even a week old. You're gonna see play that isn't gonna work when people learn how to play against the character.

Komorikiri played against a ZSS in pools, here's how the match went

He jumps onto the platform, charges LB.

Fully Charged LB later, he does a simple string -> F-Air Spike

ZSS respawns, gets stringed -> Up-Air -> FT

Clean 2 stock, less than 80 percent on Cloud.


That ISN'T how it'll happen when people know how to play against Cloud. People are gonna force him to make actions, not just charge LB. Ryuga pulled out Cloud for the first time on Thursday at MI's weeklies and got a solid performance with the same type of slow conserative play and it didn't work against people like Ksev, a strong Fox.

 

[Browny]

None of that changes the fact that Smashville gave him far too much freedom to charge limit break and almost nullified his weak recovery, room that BF/DL dont give him.

 

[Big-Cat]

Characters that are definitely better than Bowser:



Characters I would argue are better than 1.1.4 Bowser:



I have a very difficult time comprehending this top 15 nonsense. These picks are rather generous, too.

Also, rage Meta Knight is by far the most potent rage abuser in this game. There may be characters that come close, Bowser is not one of them.

I disagree. Showtime allows insane positioning potential with rage. Then there's early KO's with the followups if you predict them.

Out of that list, I'd consider as better than Bowser. Matchup wise? I can't say for certain. I'd say : is even.

 

[DunnoBro]

People really underestimate kill confirms. Prepatch Luigi, Ness, Ryu, MK, and ZSS have very mediocre neutrals and glaring weaknesses that they made up for with idiotic kill confirms. Bowser's are better, safer, and more consistent than any of theirs (except prepatch luigi, it's only slightly inferior due to damage output and lack of easy grab set-ups)

Kinda hard to tell at top level, but as far as mid-level goes, bowser is definitely a major top 15 threat. Suuuuper easy to pick up.

 

[Mario766]

Yes, he has kill confirms. WHat does he have for disadvantage, or for being combo food on a high level?

What about a strong neutral game?

Recovery?

Bowser doesn't shine in any of those areas.

 

[Vipermoon]

Speaking of Michigan weeklies. Are we overrating Mario? Not to take credit away from Zinoto's amazing Diddy but Ally's Mario lost WF and got 3-0'ed in GF against him.

Big-Cat I disagree that Bowser is in the upper half on the cast. I think that's just Bowser hype talking. Bowser was no doubt bottom 15 last patch and his Uthrow stuff is hardly guaranteed. Uthrow followups can often be air dodged and sometimes jumped away from. Even if it says it's a combo in training it's different for every character and at higher levels of knockback (like when Uthrow sets up kills), you can air dodge before hitstun ends.

I've always played a lot of Bowser and very few characters are more fun than him IMO unless you're losing. He's weird. He'll do the bodying or get bodied but at high level play the latter seems more likely.

S_B Not saying Xanadu is free but Xanadu is... yeah.

 

[Luco]

In other news, Ness was mentioned twice as having worser MUs post-patch, once by a Dark Pit player and once by a Mewtwo player.

I'm skeptical of both these claims, especially with Mewtwo. In regards to DP, Ness' recovery is and always has been over-stated as a weakness by a lot of people, both in this thread and elsewhere - Ness' DJ is that good and I don't know why it isn't brought up more often. DJ AD / aerial mixups are so strong. So yes, while the angle is definitely worse and the killpower is probably the biggest difference, I would argue recovery as the least affected category out of all of this. The killpower definitely makes it worse for Ness, but by how much I'm not sure if that's enough to tip the scales (it's a pretty hefty read).

As for Mewtwo, I'm not really sure why M2 mains think they win it and I'm not really sure where they think they have the results to back it up. I'm also surprised they haven't discussed it with us first (or maybe they have and we've just been inactive, in which case lel soz ).

 

[S_B]

S_B Not saying Xanadu is free but Xanadu is... yeah.

Free or not, some very good players play there (including Seagull Joe who was the one to break ZeRo's streak).

Also, I'm looking more at Troof's past performance versus the new Bowser's performance, in which making it to GF was a very big deal for him. This time, he did it with relative ease and beat the #1 power ranked player in the region, Boss, on his uninterrupted run to GF.

Again, we don't have many Bowser players. The data we have says it's a definite improvement, but how much of a difference it'll make in the long run will only be told by time.

This is always a marathon, not a sprint.

 

[Vipermoon]

I was one of the people who initially talked about Cloud's lack of kill setups but I was wrong. He has pretty good frame data for a swordie (if you factor in weight, it's decent overall frame data sword or no sword). And there are more than enough stupid things about him that I can see him being kind of viable despite his losing to shield and sucky grab and throw game.

Edit: We need to always remember that some characters are over a year old and Cloud is less than one week old.

 

[Jehtt]

Remember when Donkey Kong got buffed and people claimed that he was top 15? I'm reminded of that. Having a kill confirm is not enough to make a character great on their own. Bowser is still a heavy with slow, unsafe attacks and a terrible disadvantaged state.
DK is still considered good because he has other things going for him. Fast, intangible tilts, a good recovery, and a back air that could make almost any character jealous just to name a few. i do not see any of those things on Bowser.

 

[Sonicninja115]

My thoughts on where Bowser is on the tier list.

Somewhere in a folder filled with Data that the back room is compiling.

There are probably 15 characters better then Bowser, but you guys have to remember. Melee has a top 4, while Sm4sh has a top 15. We have our one/two s tier characters, and then a ton of A tier characters.

 

[Ulevo]

People really underestimate kill confirms. Prepatch Luigi, Ness, Ryu, MK, and ZSS have very mediocre neutrals and glaring weaknesses that they made up for with idiotic kill confirms. Bowser's are better, safer, and more consistent than any of theirs (except prepatch luigi, it's only slightly inferior due to damage output and lack of easy grab set-ups)

Kinda hard to tell at top level, but as far as mid-level goes, bowser is definitely a major top 15 threat. Suuuuper easy to pick up.

You believe Bowser has a better neutral than Ness, post-patch Luigi, Meta Knight, Zero Suit and Ryu?

When people say that characters like Meta Knight have limited neutrals, they are talking by comparison to Sheik and Diddy, not Bowser. I was not aware this was comedy central.

 

[Mario766]

Seagull Joe didn't break Zero's streak. The idea that he was the only person in Smash Wii U that beat Zero outside of Grand Finals isn't exactly a super good slogan for a player. He didn't beat Zero when it mattered, in losers bracket to knock him out. the only one who did that was Nairo.

Besides that, you get a select few people at Xanadu, and the MD/VA region in general.

There's a reason MD/VA got stomped against Midwest in the crew battle. Xanadu's pretty free.

 

[DunnoBro]

You believe Bowser has a better neutral than Ness, post-patch Luigi, Meta Knight, Zero Suit and Ryu?

Never said that, just that he fits the "bad neutral good kill confirms" archetype. Only his kill confirms are better.

 

[TDK]

Seagull Joe didn't break Zero's streak. The idea that he was the only person in Smash Wii U that beat Zero outside of Grand Finals isn't exactly a super good slogan for a player. He didn't beat Zero when it mattered, in losers bracket to knock him out. the only one who did that was Nairo.

though Seagull Joe is currently the only person who has a winning record against ZeRo. Just food for thought.

 

[Jehtt]

Is Bowser's kill confirm not percent-specific like DK's? Most of the other characters you listed have a wide variety of percents where their moves work (especially Ness; his backthrow kills past a certain threshold no matter what) while Bowser's seems to be between 80-100. Is this incorrect?

 

[DunnoBro]

Is Bowser's kill confirm not percent-specific like DK's? Most of the other characters you listed have a wide variety of percents where their moves work (especially Ness; his backthrow kills past a certain threshold no matter what) while Bowser's seems to be between 80-100. Is this incorrect?

It's wayyyyy less percent specific than DKs. Almost exactly reminiscent of luigi's dthrow > cyclone percents. (Except reversed in the sense floaties get out better as opposed to fast fallers with cyclone)

 

[Cronoc]

Big-Cat I disagree that Bowser is in the upper half on the cast. I think that's just Bowser hype talking. Bowser was no doubt bottom 15 last patch and his Uthrow stuff is hardly guaranteed. Uthrow followups can often be air dodged and sometimes jumped away from. Even if it says it's a combo in training it's different for every character and at higher levels of knockback (like when Uthrow sets up kills), you can air dodge before hitstun ends.

As a Bowser main I'd like to state for the record that a uthrow to uair kill true combo is possible from anywhere between 80-140% and probably past that, with that lower number depending on the weight of the character and Bowser's rage (actually, with rage that number can probably go lower). There is almost no reasonable percent in which it cannot be true combo'd. The timing becomes slightly different as Bowser has to space his two jumps high enough and fast enough to reach the character that's been thrown, but there is no question here - when executed properly it is a true combo. Remember that after a certain percent, for most characters after 110-120% an economical Bowser will simply use klaw for the kill. So to repeat, for any reasonable range in which the Bowser player might employ uthrow to uair as a kill combo, it can be true combo'd. Uthrow to uair becomes a true combo much earlier than 85% by the way, it's just that nair or other aerials are the better followups before the higher percents.

All that said, Bowser isn't top 15. I think Bowser being top 25 pre-patch was wishful thinking. Now, postpatch it can be said that Bowser is top 25 without exaggeration. But by top 25 I mean pretty much 25th. Which is pretty much where he was when the game came out. With all the new characters and buffs others have gotten since, this just about puts Bowser back where he started on the tiers.

 

[Big-Cat]

Yes, he has kill confirms. WHat does he have for disadvantage, or for being combo food on a high level?

What about a strong neutral game?

Recovery?

Bowser doesn't shine in any of those areas.

Bowser has an amazing neutral game what the heck are you talking about? His just doesn't involve going TWO TWO TWO TWO TWO TWO TWO with a FAir. While we're at it, Zamus has like no neutral game and she's second best.

To supplement Cronoc , UThrow has a rarely seen hitstun modifier where the hitstun from UThrow INCREASES WITH DAMAGE. Hence why, for all practical purposes, UAir becomes the optimal followup at 80-85%.

 

[Cronoc]

Bowser has an amazing neutral game what the heck are you talking about? His just doesn't involve going TWO TWO TWO TWO TWO TWO TWO with a FAir. While we're at it, Zamus has like no neutral game and she's second best.

I feel like I've been posting a lot of "know-it-all" posts lately so I'm going to calm it down after this. But let's not get ahead of ourselves here, Bowser's neutral puts the onus on him to get in, and he doesn't have safe attacks or frame data to help with that. Without a projectile or reflect, his neutral is exploitable by projectiles and faster frame data. He has a great pivot grab and jabs are safe-ish, but everything with him is a commitment and there isn't any free damage. Even pivot grab loses to all sorts of attacks. If he is on the ground in the neutral then Bowser is good at repelling attacks (defensive play), but many characters don't need to approach him. He is at disadvantage when he's forced to approach due to frame data. Zoners can really make Bowser fight an uphill battle, and Bowser's size enable punishes and enemy approach options that wouldn't work on other smaller characters.

Provided a Bowser main doesn't encounter some of Bowser's worst matchups on their way through a tournament bracket, it's completely possible for Bowser to make it pretty far, especially as uthrow combos let us punish unsafe or poor play far more efficiently. Characters in general aren't going to live as long against Bowser now. But somewhere down the line will be a Sonic, or a ZSS, or one of a number of characters that Bowser doesn't have tools to deal with, and uthrow combos won't make the difference in those matchups at the highest levels of play.

IMO.

 

[Dre89]

Not going to lie, these "X" character is now top [insert number] posts are absolutely insufferable

PS: Robin is clearly top 21 you guys.

Does Robin get 30% combos and kills out of an option whose only real counterplay is pre emptive jumping and massively disjointed hitboxes?

Seeing as Bowser's jab combos into grab, they just gave him massive reward on his two core tools in neutral. The two easiest moves to land as Bowser.

 

[PK Gaming]

Does Robin get 30% combos and kills out of an option whose only real counterplay is pre emptive jumping and massively disjointed hitboxes?

Seeing as Bowser's jab combos into grab, they just gave him massive reward on his two core tools in neutral. The two easiest moves to land as Bowser.

Dude, I was taking the piss

I really thought the number choice gave it away too

 

[Mario766]

How does ZSS not have a neutral game with strong mobility and one of the best aerials to use in neutral, N-Air which is +0 on shield.

Bowser's neutral game is leagues worse than ZSS, and it won't hold a candle to the top/high tiers.

btw...hitstun modifier my ass.


Hitstun increases with knockback, which increases

WITH

DAMAGE

Now if you mean a modifier that increases it more than the normal formula, then you might have something. But the way you're talking you really know zero about the game, and the competitive nature of this game more importantly.

 

[Vipermoon]

Bowser has an amazing neutral game what the heck are you talking about? His just doesn't involve going TWO TWO TWO TWO TWO TWO TWO with a FAir. While we're at it, Zamus has like no neutral game and she's second best.

To supplement Cronoc , UThrow has a rarely seen hitstun modifier where the hitstun from UThrow INCREASES WITH DAMAGE. Hence why, for all practical purposes, UAir becomes the optimal followup at 80-85%.

I'd like to know more about this hitstun modifier. Where do I go?

 

[Ghostbone]

Calling bowser top 25 is ignoring all the other good characters in this game.

Like DK sits at around the 20th spot, and I can't see Bowser as being anywhere close to as good

 

[Dre89]

Dude, I was taking the piss

I really thought the number choice gave it away too

Yes but your joke about Robin isn't analogous to what I'm saying about Bowser.

It's not just that he has a high reward grab, DK has that too. It's that unlike DK, it's extremely easy to get grabs as Bowser because of how many options dash and pivot grab beat.

He's by far the most one dimensional character in the game whilst being highly effective. There's almost never a reason to not go for the grab, especially when you're in advantage. It just beats so many things whilst always having the best reward.

 

[PK Gaming]

My post wasn't specifically directed towards you

Just commentary on an obnoxious trend that's popping up

 

[HoSmash4]

It's a good thing people play more than just top tiers in tournaments, then.



First of, sweet spotted Usmash kills well before 180%.

Second, Sheik doesn't get her kills in neutral. She gets them off the side with a well placed bouncing fish or off the top with a 50/50, both of which also kill well before 180%, and both of which tend to be extremely reliable.

Third, no, you cannot justify a character being overpowered by saying "It's their archetype!". Were that the case, Mewtwo would be unbeatable and would kill everyone in one hit because that IS his archetype. Sheik can still have weaknesses and, other than having to get people into kill traps to reliably KO, she doesn't have any.

Honestly, if I was going to nerf anything of Sheik's, it'd be her recovery. Bouncing fish + the ridiculous distance on vanish + a walljump means that Sheik is pretty much guaranteed to recover unless she hits the blast zone. Though adding another frame or two of landing lag to the tinder combo would be nice as well...



I avoid saying things like this because, when it DOES happen, you wind up with a lot of crow to eat.

Also, who's calling nerfs for Mario? Mario is a very well balanced character...

Because upsmash is a neutral option? If you got hit by it, you got caught by a airdodge trap, or tried to challenge sheik with a whilst trying to land (In smash 4 you generally dont try to challenge people below you). Thats not a neutral option. Her neutral options are needles, grab ftilt, jab, dtilt nair and fair. BF/Dash attack/Upsmash are punishes. Not neutral options.

Sheik's archetype is to be safe and doesnt smash 4 reward you the most for being safe? If you either get rid of her KO setups and that pretty much guts her as a character and she ends up like brawl sheik.

 

[Ghostbone]

Brawl Sheik has KO confirms (needles to DACUS, grab release to DACUS, f-tilt lock to u-smash on spacies)
Which is basically as good as you get in a game without real hitstun past early %s. She's mostly just worse in that game because she has no aerial mobility and of course doesn't have a down-b.

 

[HoSmash4]

Brawl Sheik has KO confirms (needles to DACUS, grab release to DACUS, f-tilt lock to u-smash on spacies)
Which is basically as good as you get in a game without real hitstun past early %s. She's mostly just worse in that game because she has no aerial mobility and of course doesn't have a down-b.

Ah, my mistake. I remembered wrong then.