Official Character Competitive Impressions - Tourneys, Tiers, Theories, Tactics

[MajorMajora]

It wouldn't be hard to maintain Sheik's identity while nerfing her. Just lower her kill power (her one weakness). Specifically, significantly lower the knockback growth on her uair and bouncing fish. Still fast, but now she actually has trouble killing. Now she needs to land a vanish (Now even harder since people no longer fear uair kills) or a smash attack, which you rarely see a sheik use.

Strong strengths and significant weaknesses. As they should be.

 

[Sonicninja115]

I think that the only thing she needs nerfed is the hit/windbox at the end of Up B. It is just a bit too good of a recovery. The only reason she had the hitboxes in melee was because she didn't have the best recovery, but now she has Bouncing Fish...

 

[LancerStaff]

It wouldn't be hard to maintain Sheik's identity while nerfing her. Just lower her kill power (her one weakness). Specifically, significantly lower the knockback growth on her uair and bouncing fish. Still fast, but now she actually has trouble killing. Now she needs to land a vanish (Now even harder since people no longer fear uair kills) or a smash attack, which you rarely see a sheik use.

Strong strengths and significant weaknesses. As they should be.

They can't really nerf her kill power much more or she'll be completely unusable in FFAs... So I don't think they will.

 

[SaltyKracka]

They can't really nerf her kill power much more or she'll be completely unusable in FFAs... So I don't think they will.

Then they can have Bouncing Fish put her into special fall. Or they can nerf her throws. Or perhaps they could go ahead and actually make her slower.

Shrugging and abandoning actual balance for the sake of FFAs is nothing more than an excuse for laziness.

 

[Nobie]

LoF Blue's Mewtwo in Loser's Finals: http://www.twitch.tv/bros_calamity

 

[MajorMajora]

They can't really nerf her kill power much more or she'll be completely unusable in FFAs... So I don't think they will.

How often in FFA's do you think sheik kills with uair/bouncing fish vs. with smash attacks? Heck, it's easier to kill with smash attacks in FFA's due to there being more punish opportunities. Effects her even less than it does in singles.

 

[Aunt Jemima]

To be honest, I'm pretty sure Sheik gains more kills in FFAs by stealing them with needles. At least, that's what I do. Ganondorf just used F-Smash? B. My kill.

 

[Teshie U]

weak characters can just steal kills in FFA. Sheik is still a very good opportunist and simply passing through one of her weak hitboxes on the way out earns er the kills

 

[Vyrnx]

Someone makes a joke about talking about FFA and now we're talking about FFA.

And Nobie I definitely agree with the thing about Samus buffs. If Samus were buffed and they gave her better missiles, I would be disappointed. Projectiles really aren't what Samus is oriented towards in this game and I appreciate that, I love her design intent as is. Same with jab. Her "faulty" jab makes her interesting and I'd rather see other moves changed. A few modifications and she could be really solid. Better hitbox on dair, better hurtbox on ftilt, and one or two other things, I'd have no complaints. She isn't designed to fail. She just has minor tweaks that need to be made.

That said, I don't agree that buffs would push Samus over the edge as easily as everyone thinks. She has weaknesses built into her through floatiness (difficulty landing) and size. Removing unnecessary flaws from certain moves would not push her over the edge because those inherent weaknesses are still there.

 

[Y2Kay]

Wholly cow, I was only joking when I said "no promises".Now thinkaman is gone for some hours and we got callouts and arguments and all other kinds of mess.

Thanks for doing the exact opposite of thinkaman's wishes. Really provin' a point.

 

[Dre89]

Someone makes a joke about talking about FFA and now we're talking about FFA.

And Nobie I definitely agree with the thing about Samus buffs. If Samus were buffed and they gave her better missiles, I would be disappointed. Projectiles really aren't what Samus is oriented towards in this game and I appreciate that, I love her design intent as is. Same with jab. Her "faulty" jab makes her interesting and I'd rather see other moves changed. A few modifications and she could be really solid. Better hitbox on dair, better hurtbox on ftilt, and one or two other things, I'd have no complaints. She isn't designed to fail. She just has minor tweaks that need to be made.

That said, I don't agree that buffs would push Samus over the edge as easily as everyone thinks. She has weaknesses built into her through floatiness (difficulty landing) and size. Removing unnecessary flaws from certain moves would not push her over the edge because those inherent weaknesses are still there.

I thought the reason Samus isn't oriented towards projectiles this game is because they suck

 

[meleebrawler]

Someone makes a joke about talking about FFA and now we're talking about FFA.

And Nobie I definitely agree with the thing about Samus buffs. If Samus were buffed and they gave her better missiles, I would be so disappointed. Projectiles really aren't what Samus is oriented towards in this game and I appreciate that, I love her design intent as is. Same with jab. Her "faulty" jab makes her interesting and I'd rather see other moves changed. A few modifications and she could be really solid. Better hitbox on dair, better hurtbox on ftilt, and one or two other things, I'd have no complaints. She isn't designed to fail. She just has minor tweaks that need to be made.

Sorry. Though I guess I shouldn't be surprised this'd happen in the wake of a new patch, especially with FFA being a common scapegoat in this matter...

That Samus writeup you wrote a few pages back really helped me see Samus in a new light, especially when compared with Mewtwo. They both center around their powerful charged projectiles, but have different ways of going about landing them. Samus moves in and lays down the pressure to make the opponent crack and leave an opening to blast them (aided by Charge Shot's faster startup and speed), while Mewtwo dances around spacing the opponent until they overextend themselves trying to hit him. His mobility buffs enhance this style of play, and while he got landing lag reductions on his aerials improving his approaches, he's still at his best letting the opponent make the first move.

Dre89 plenty of brawler characters have projectiles that, well, kind of suck as projectiles. Things like Mii Brawler's Shot Put, Ryu's Hadouken, Mario's Fireball... they're average at best in a neutral scenario, and are generally just there so that the character isn't COMPLETELY helpless at a range.

You can argue that there's a bit of false advertising going on in Samus's case, but she's not Zelda where she's forced into a sub-optimal playstyle because her "optimal" one doesn't work as intended.

 

[Vyrnx]

I thought the reason Samus isn't oriented towards projectiles this game is because they suck

Yes. It's the same reason any non projectile character isn't oriented towards projectiles, because their projectiles suck or they don't have projectiles. Samus has sucky projectiles, so she isn't a projectile character.

It was a trade off during development, missile canceling was removed, but Samus got a great combo game in exchange, in addition to several other buffs. So in my eyes she was repurposed for the better. That's why I would be disappointed if they buffed missiles. She has a unique archetype right now, I wouldn't want Samus to just become, "projectiles." CS is great, but it's not what I mean when I say projectile character. It's not a zoning move, it's a charge and wait for the advantage move.

There's also no mess in this thread right now. People getting up in arms, don't know why. Just regular discussion.

 

[Sonicninja115]

Yes. It's the same reason any non projectile character isn't oriented towards projectiles, because their projectiles suck or they don't have projectiles. Samus has sucky projectiles, so she isn't a projectile character.

It was a trade off during development, missile canceling was removed, but Samus got a great combo game in exchange, in addition to several other buffs. So in my eyes she was repurposed for the better. That's why I would be disappointed if they buffed missiles. She has a unique archetype right now, I wouldn't want Samus to just become, "projectiles." CS is great, but it's not what I mean when I say projectile character. It's not a zoning move, it's a charge and wait for the advantage move.

There's also no mess in this thread right now. People getting up in arms, don't know why. Just regular discussion.

What is Samus's role in Sm4sh? Example: Mewtwo is a glass cannon

 

[Vyrnx]

What is Samus's role in Sm4sh? Example: Mewtwo is a glass cannon

Floaty, midrange/zoning heavyweight combo character with tech chases. So the equivalent of Mewtwo's "glass" is Samus' floatiness. A simpler role unique to Samus is just the "heavyweight combo character." Actually that pretty much is her role but I don't want to retype the first sentence cuz the extra stuff is also true.

Also in regards to , why is he called a cannon? I'm not saying he isn't, I don't know much about him so I was just wondering what makes his advantage strong.

 

[Sonicninja115]

Floaty, midrange/zoning heavyweight combo character with tech chases. So the equivalent of Mewtwo's "glass" is Samus' floatiness. A simpler role unique to Samus is just the heavyweight combo character. Actually that pretty much is her role but I don't want to retype the first sentence cuz the extra stuff is also true.

Also in regards to , why is he called a cannon? I'm not saying he isn't, I don't know much about him so I was just wondering what makes his advantage strong.

Mewtwo dies at 80-100% off the top, but kills everyone else at 80% from wherever. He has strong kill options and set-ups, plus a great ledge-guarding game and a powerful projectile. Glass cannon is he dies early, but kills earlier. Did that answer your question?

KO options.

Uair 110%

Usmash 85%

Uthrow 130%

Bthrow 115% ( at the ledge)

Dsmash and Fsmash 110% usually

Disable

SB 100%

Fair 100% at the ledge or offstage.

Spike

Bair

 

[MajorMajora]

I dunno about the samus thing. I kind of feel like her whole thing was projectiles, so not having her game centered around them seems a bit off. I

 

[Sonicninja115]

I dunno about the samus thing. I kind of feel like her whole thing was projectiles, so not having her game centered around them seems a bit off. I

It's sorta like, if she had better projectile's her game would revolve around it. Since her projectile game isn't stellar, people have had to adapt and change Samus to something besides a projectile zoner IMO.

 

[JesterJaded]

I dunno about the samus thing. I kind of feel like her whole thing was projectiles, so not having her game centered around them seems a bit off. I

^This. Imo any character with 3+ different projectiles is a projectile-based character - to intend otherwise is pretty bad design.

/returnstolurking

 

[S_B]

Another thing is that the idea for this game isn't based on the competitive side of things. That's the most likely answer for why some things don't get changed. Some designs for characters are just better for competitive play than others, unfortunately.

Eh, I've said it in the past and I'll say it again: it can be both, and it's clear that someone on the dev team is trying to make it both.

The reason "hoo-haas" are so prevalent for balancing purposes is because they give competitive players a new tool while giving casual players absolutely nothing. If you buff Bowser's Fsmash so it always breaks shields, Bowser would be better competitively, sure, but he'd also be a NIGHTMARE in casual play, so he gets a hoo-haa instead.

My guess is they're waiting to see if anyone dethrones Sheik/ZSS after buffs. That seems to be Sakurai's technique this far: tweak, step back and observe for a bit, repeat. If nothing changes in the current matchup setups, I expect we'll see more adjustments.

I think Mewtwo is pretty great right now. They really gave him a good patch. He is just, balanced now.

Blue's Mewtwo was tearing it up in doubles earlier in a tournament that was being streamed. Seemed the buffs helped a LOT.

 

[Vyrnx]

Ok ok, I don't want to make this the Samus discussion thread but this will be my last reply on this.

There were enough changes to Samus from Brawl to 4 that back up that she was not intended to be a projectile character. You have to look past her arm cannon, and people tend to not do that. I don't mean to be rude, but it is really frustrating to see, "Samus was meant to be a projectile character --> her projectiles are bad --> Samus is a bad character." There's more to it than that. The evidence isn't that they purposely nerfed Samus' projectile game, it's in what they purposely buffed.

Samus is totally different from Brawl Samus and the changes they made are what make her new design intent obvious. It's the only thing that explains moves that were totally redesigned or repurposed for tech chases, weak smash attacks, and a stronger CS. She was redesigned to get KOs off of tech chase CS.

It's also evident in moves like fair, uair, dash attack, down throw, etc that were repurposed for combos. One thing I want to stress is that the combo game people talk about with Samus is not made up. Her bnbs are the ones that do 40+ damage, not training mode combos--totally feasible combos people land all the time.

The changes to the moves that strengthened her tech chase and combo games also strengthened her edge guard game. Whether that was intended or not, I don't know, but whatever the intent she's a great edge guarder.

Anyway, so my point is that projectiles were ignored in development, but on the other hand her combo and tech chase games were clearly given a lot of thought. And what that means is that in development, these changes that clearly had intent behind them, point to the fact that Samus has a completely different design purpose now, and doesn't point to the fact that she was ever intended to center around projectiles. The developers spent time on Samus, but not on her projectiles--she has an arm cannon, but she is not a miserable failure because her projectiles are. The developers spent time on what her actual design intent was. These play styles aren't things that Samus players discovered because we were forced to to compensate for bad projectiles, they were placed in the game by the developers intently.

So her purpose is not projectiles and there is enough evidence for that. That's also important to keep in mind when talking about buffs Samus needs--she isn't centered around projectiles, so the buffs she needs should also not be centered around projectiles.

 

[MajorMajora]

Vyrnx I wasn't saying that her current style was unintentional, I'm just saying that, as a fan of her games and someone who knew of her kit but wasn't familiar with it, was disappointed by not being able to use missiles for anything practical. It was one of her draws at a casual level (the most important level as far as archetyping goes) and I was looking forward to using them.

 

[Balgorxz]

I kind of agree with both statements, mewtwo is a bad matchup for zard

It wouldn't be hard to maintain Sheik's identity while nerfing her. Just lower her kill power (her one weakness). Specifically, significantly lower the knockback growth on her uair and bouncing fish. Still fast, but now she actually has trouble killing. Now she needs to land a vanish (Now even harder since people no longer fear uair kills) or a smash attack, which you rarely see a sheik use.

Strong strengths and significant weaknesses. As they should be.

nah, that would be terrible matches will get everyone sleepy with sheik doing 1 damage per attack, sheik needs 3/4 the travel distance in her upb and remove the windbox so she is vulnerable to edgeguarding

 

[JesterJaded]

Ok ok, I don't want to make this the Samus discussion thread but this will be my last reply on this.

There were enough changes to Samus from Brawl to 4 that back up that she was not intended to be a projectile character. You have to look past her arm cannon, and people tend to not do that. I don't mean to be rude, but it is really frustrating to see, "Samus was meant to be a projectile character --> her projectiles are bad --> Samus is a bad character." There's more to it than that. The evidence isn't that they purposely nerfed Samus' projectile game, it's in what they purposely buffed.

Samus is totally different from Brawl Samus and the changes they made are what make her new design intent obvious. It's the only thing that explains moves that were totally redesigned or repurposed for tech chases, weak smash attacks, and a stronger CS. She was redesigned to get KOs off of tech chase CS.

It's also evident in moves like fair, uair, dash attack, down throw, etc that were repurposed for combos. One thing I want to stress is that the combo game people talk about with Samus is not made up. Her bnbs are the ones that do 40+ damage, not training mode combos--totally feasible combos people land all the time.

The changes to the moves that strengthened her tech chase and combo games also strengthened her edge guard game. Whether that was intended or not, I don't know, but whatever the intent she's a great edge guarder.

Anyway, so my point is that projectiles were ignored in development, but on the other hand her combo and tech chase games were clearly given a lot of thought. And what that means is that in development, these changes that clearly had intent behind them, point to the fact that Samus has a completely different design purpose now, and doesn't point to the fact that she was ever intended to center around projectiles. The developers spent time on Samus, but not on her projectiles--she has an arm cannon, but she is not a miserable failure because her projectiles are. The developers spent time on what her actual design intent was. These play styles aren't things that Samus players discovered because we were forced to to compensate for bad projectiles, they were placed in the game by the developers intently.

So her purpose is not projectiles and there is enough evidence for that. That's also important to keep in mind when talking about buffs Samus needs--she isn't centered around projectiles, so the buffs she needs should also not be centered around projectiles.

I don't think anyone here is arguing against that Samus' combo game is what the developers were focusing on, but from a design perspective, it's still a flawed design. When a good chunk of your moveset IS projectiles, why would you not change those projectiles to better suit the supposed combo-and-tech-based character you're going for with the new version of the game? Why would you flat-out ignore those projectiles? You end up sacrificing a good chunk of the character's moveset with things that don't really help the character's hypothetical gameplan.

 

[MajorMajora]

I kind of agree with both statements, mewtwo is a bad matchup for zard

nah, that would be terrible matches will get everyone sleepy with sheik doing 1 damage per attack, sheik needs 3/4 the travel distance in her upb and remove the windbox so she is vulnerable to edgeguarding

If the opponent is unskilled, the Sheik will still kill them with reads in a reasonable amount of time.
If they are more skilled than the Sheik, the sheik will lose within a reasonable amount of time.
If they are the same skill level, the Sheik is at risk letting them live and is therefore compelled to use risky smash attacks to kill. If not, the other will likely kill them before the time spent gets excessive.

Also our matches are timed for a reason.

 

[ARGHETH]

nah, that would be terrible matches will get everyone sleepy with sheik doing 1 damage per attack, sheik needs 3/4 the travel distance in her upb and remove the windbox so she is vulnerable to edgeguarding

But Bouncing Fish still exists, so that'll do very little in actually nerfing her recovery.

I don't think anyone here is arguing that Samus' combo game is what the developers were focusing on, but from a design perspective, it's still a flawed design. When a good chunk of your moveset IS projectiles, why would you not change those projectiles to better suit the supposed combo-and-tech-based character you're going for with the new version of the game? Why would you flat-out ignore those projectiles? You end up sacrificing a good chunk of the character's moveset with things that don't really help the character's hypothetical gameplan.

How are they ignoring them? Vyrnx already explained CS, and bombs are more for recovery...I think. I dunno what exactly they're for, really. Missles are the odd one out, but one ignored/nerfed projectile doesn't mean they're ignoring her projectiles.

 

[Dre89]

Sorry. Though I guess I shouldn't be surprised this'd happen in the wake of a new patch, especially with FFA being a common scapegoat in this matter...

That Samus writeup you wrote a few pages back really helped me see Samus in a new light, especially when compared with Mewtwo. They both center around their powerful charged projectiles, but have different ways of going about landing them. Samus moves in and lays down the pressure to make the opponent crack and leave an opening to blast them (aided by Charge Shot's faster startup and speed), while Mewtwo dances around spacing the opponent until they overextend themselves trying to hit him. His mobility buffs enhance this style of play, and while he got landing lag reductions on his aerials improving his approaches, he's still at his best letting the opponent make the first move.

Dre89 plenty of brawler characters have projectiles that, well, kind of suck as projectiles. Things like Mii Brawler's Shot Put, Ryu's Hadouken, Mario's Fireball... they're average at best in a neutral scenario, and are generally just there so that the character isn't COMPLETELY helpless at a range.

You can argue that there's a bit of false advertising going on in Samus's case, but she's not Zelda where she's forced into a sub-optimal playstyle because her "optimal" one doesn't work as intended.

I'm pretty sure she was designed to be a projectile character because she's not fast and her frame data sucks. Character's like Mario and Luigi who have projectiles but it's not their entire meta have other strengths like frame data to compensate.

Look at Toon Link. He's clearly designed to be projectile reliant because he's light and short ranged yet his frame data is effectively worse than Bowser's. So clearly his projectiles are designed to compensate. Samus's speed and frame data are too bad for someone with 3 projectile specials if she's not designed to be heavily reliant on them.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

So, got some rough numbers on Electroshock with rage and max freshness, on FD, against a Mario with no DI or interrupting hitstun a roll's distance away from the ledge. Not entirely sure how rage itself works and I'm working in increments of 5% on Mario and 20% on Dark Pit but these are the numbers I got.


*<50?% 80%
50-70% 75%
90% 70%
110% 65%
130% 55%
150+% 45%
*Tested at 0%, anything in between 50% and 0% wouldn't be relevant regardless of rage's mechanics and I don't feel like it ATM.

Like... What!? Mario could be stylin' on Dark Pit for most of a match then Dark Pit's goes "Gruh, ELECTROSHOCK!" through a jab or something and now Dark Pit's a stock up. Like... Holy ****. This is like giving Dorf Fsmash to Mario.

I'll get more data on different positions tomorrow, hopefully.

The numbers weren't changed very much, like, -1 BKB and +7 KBG and 0.5% and a small angle change shouldn't affect a move's KB that much. Either the patch notes are wrong or Dark Pit has always been able to do this.

What were the KO percents last patch?

 

[DblCrest]

If you buff Bowser's Fsmash so it always breaks shields, Bowser would be better competitively, sure, but he'd also be a NIGHTMARE in casual play, so he gets a hoo-haa instead.

I recall that's one of the reasons Kirby's stone and hammer are so punishable due to new or casual players having difficulty dealing with them if they did too much damage and were too safe .

Speaking of Samus I just miss her old Nair . That's honestly the only reason I don't play her as much these days. Shoving a big boot in someone's face offstage or when you're jumping away from them.

 

[Sonicninja115]

I kind of agree with both statements, mewtwo is a bad matchup for zard

nah, that would be terrible matches will get everyone sleepy with sheik doing 1 damage per attack, sheik needs 3/4 the travel distance in her upb and remove the windbox so she is vulnerable to edgeguarding

Mewtwo vs. Zard is the only JV 3 I have ever gotten. It wasn't online either.

 

[TriTails]

I can say that he still struggles against the likes of characters like

How the heck does Link struggle with Luigi. We no longer kill you at 100% near the ledge with down throw B-air nor can we get past through your projectiles easily. Riding the boomerang often backfires to us because unless you're pulling some laggy stuffs and somehow miss, we'll just get outspaced by F-smash or grab, and landing against Link is ******** with your U-smash and U-air. Your bombs go through Fireballs and shielding is a fidgety choice to do due to your grab's massive range and fair reward. And F-air killing now? With 12 frames of landing lag? Uhhhh....

----------------------------------
I still stand with my suggestion to remove growth on Sheik's needles and make them have fixed KB that does not send people into tumble. That alone should make her much more tame. Cut out F-air's range or at least move them back, it's ridiculous to think someone can win a swordfight with only his fists, even more when you think an arm can outrange a sword. I don't think its autocancel is justified either, but if they cut out its range then I suppose autocancelling after the hitbox ends would be fine. These buffs in my hypothesis would tone her down but wouldn't destroy her, all while still keeping her archetype, low damage but speedy with high safety.

And no, F-air with disjoint of a sword with 4 frames of startup (Hits at frame 5) that autocancels right after the hitbox ends in a character with really fast and far reaching SHFF with one of the best mobility specs in the game is not balanced nor healthy any kind. Balancing Sheik is literally just a few steps away.

 

[Browny]

Ban SV

Leave BF/DL open


Good luck m8.

Id MUCH rather give him those stages than give him a free limit break charge every 20 seconds.

Did you even see the matches? All he did was hit people, run away to the platform and charge limit break. He must have got like 3+ every single stock.

Giving cloud platforms is far more desirable than giving him free limit breaks, he might as well have no weaknesses.

 

[meleebrawler]

I'm pretty sure she was designed to be a projectile character because she's not fast and her frame data sucks. Character's like Mario and Luigi who have projectiles but it's not their entire meta have other strengths like frame data to compensate.

Look at Toon Link. He's clearly designed to be projectile reliant because he's light and short ranged yet his frame data is effectively worse than Bowser's. So clearly his projectiles are designed to compensate. Samus's speed and frame data are too bad for someone with 3 projectile specials if she's not designed to be heavily reliant on them.

Samus's frame data isn't bad, not the best, but she's got plenty of fast startup moves. Samus doesn't need a whole lot of speed when she can poke you with zair and dtilt, harass decently at a distance with super missiles or the threat of charging a shot, can grab you from a long distance (slow, sure, but you can't argue with that range. It has non-standard uses as a grab like her alter-ego), and also her dash attack is kind of insane.

You know what Super Missiles are good for? Low-commitment landing traps. Bombs? Create a trap that can lead to shield-breaking strings. These options plus her other fast moves let her systematically apply pressure to her opponent in almost any scenario until they trip up enough to get hit by Charge Shot, or fsmash, which is also pretty darn quick for a smash. She has endlag issues which punish her if she isn't precise but she's far from slow.

Mario and Luigi have awesome frame data because their range sucks.

 

[Fatmanonice]

I'm not so convinced we won't see anymore Sheik or ZSS nerfs in the next patch. I get the impression the dev team has been focusing on one or at most just a few aspects of the game in each of the recent patches. Devs do this in a lot of games. Some of those aspects include shield changes and balance around that, custom specials, and tuning up underwhelming characters that don't fit their archetype very well.

Who's to say we won't see a follow-up balance patch for the shieldstun and hitlag mechanic changes? ZSS would surely be a candidate for removing a bit of safety. Sheik could easily be impacted by something else, more indirectly, as well. Recovery safety patch? Resetting-to-neutral patch? Plenty of categories exist.

I agree with this. On this topic, I don't think the developers have static visions of how characters should play. This idea does have credibility when it comes to newcomers but it doesn't explain how veterans can shift wildly from game to game. As a Ness user since Melee, this is an especially strong case. In the past three installments, the character has gone from hilariously bad to underwhelming to fairly intimidating and I feel like how the developers have approached the character has greatly changed too. Characters like Dedede and Bowser were practically turned into different characters between Brawl and Smash 4. Falco and Marth were knocked off their coveted competitive perches that they held for two installments. It's pretty clear that the ideas behind what they should be changed overtime.

 

[Big-Cat]

I'd imagine the changes done to veterans is a mix of a new direction for those characters and adapting them to the current game's mechanics. Some change less than others over time.

 

[Radical Larry]

How the heck does Link struggle with Luigi. We no longer kill you at 100% near the ledge with down throw B-air nor can we get past through your projectiles easily. Riding the boomerang often backfires to us because unless you're pulling some laggy stuffs and somehow miss, we'll just get outspaced by F-smash or grab, and landing against Link is ******** with your U-smash and U-air. Your bombs go through Fireballs and shielding is a fidgety choice to do due to your grab's massive range and fair reward. And F-air killing now? With 12 frames of landing lag? Uhhhh....

Well, I believe I have to get some more time against Luigi players.

 

[Big-Cat]

I don't mean to advertise my thread, but this vid was sent to me by Lord Mix that goes over Bowser's UThrow followups with this recent patch. I can't say for certain that Bowser will be top 20, but he'll definitely be in the upper half. If you want to disucss this without sidetracking the thread, go here.

EDIT: Wrong video at first.

 

[RonNewcomb]

So it seems the final hit of Cloud's LB Cross Slash is a projectile. I nailed a reflecting Pit with it, who tanked all hits like a boss, but the final hit killed Cloud.

In other news, Ness was mentioned twice as having worser MUs post-patch, once by a Dark Pit player and once by a Mewtwo player.

Well, I believe I have to get some more time against Luigi players.

Yeah, Luigi has a hard time vs good zoning.

 

[Nobie]

So it seems the final hit of Cloud's LB Cross Slash is a projectile. I nailed a reflecting Pit with it, who tanked all hits like a boss, but the final hit killed Cloud.

In other news, Ness was mentioned twice as having worser MUs post-patch, once by a Dark Pit player and once by a Mewtwo player.

Mewtwo already had a decent matchup vs. Ness (somewhere in the evenish 5:5 range). The new mobility works wonders, and if you miss an up air...you're getting up aired.

For a while, I was wondering why some people complained about fighting Cloud. Then I switched to a character that doesn't have a giant projectile and long-ranged tilts and it suddenly made more sense.

Speaking of Cloud, I keep having this minor thought of "what if an old, old school King of Fighters player used Cloud?" They're veterans of meter management, especially the "hold down button to charge" variety, so it'd be interesting to see if they'd bring anything to the table.

 

[Dre89]

I don't mean to advertise my thread, but this vid was sent to me by Lord Mix that goes over Bowser's UThrow followups with this recent patch. I can't say for certain that Bowser will be top 20, but he'll definitely be in the upper half. If you want to disucss this without sidetracking the thread, go here.

EDIT: Wrong video at first.

Bowser was like 25th before the patch. Most people who have versed proper Bowsers thought that. The people who thought he was bottom 10 were the ones who knew nothing about the meta and thought you were supposed to do stuff like space with firebreath and dtilt.

Character is easily top 15 because he's basically a heavy pre patch Luigi. High damage and kill confirms out of his low counterplay dashgrab. Dashgrab is almost always the best option now because it covers several options at once due to the fact it goes through shields and its range beats out many hitboxes.

He was already the biggest rage abuser in the game and now he abuses it even harder because he doesn't lose the window to do it due to uthrow having low KBG, but allows his uair to kill earlier.