Official Character Competitive Impressions - Tourneys, Tiers, Theories, Tactics

[ILOVESMASH]

Just popping by to saw that Mewtwo now has some of the highest damaging combos in the game. For way too long people complained about him having no combos. His fair and nair frame trap really well now.

jab - dtilt - fair is 22% and works on just about everyone and keeps working quite late on heavies and you can even get 2 fairs (true combo) on them for about 34% off a jab. uair takes the place of fair on lightweights for about 19%.
nair to grab/jab can do anywhere from 20% to 39% depending on the opponents % when they get set up for the aforementioned fair chain.
jab - utilt - usmash is 24% and a solid kill confirm on anyone that gets sucked into it
fthrow does 13%

I know what the difference between a string and a combo is, these are frame traps that only the fastest nairs can break and thats only if Mewtwo does it at point blank. With any sort of spacing whatsoever, these are true.

The reason I bring this up is because when you compare it to other popular combos youll see just how weak these other combos are.
Diddys uthrow - uair - uair does 17%, banana - dtilt - usmash 21%
Marios dthrow - dair - bair is 27% but only works once, or dthrow - utitil - utilt - uair - uair does 24%.

Mewtwo's combo game pre patch was pretty decent (nearly everything you listed worked pre patch as well). The issue was that Mewtwo lacked a combo throw and actually landing these combos was more difficult. The issue of lacking a combo throw was sort of resolved through d-throw's new angle (don't know why Mewtwo players are complaining about this, I've been able to land JC U-Smashes nearly 100% of the time at low to mid percents thanks to this new angle) while Mewtwo's other combos have become much easier to land as well as much safer due to the increase reach and lowered lag of several of his moves, along with the buff to his mobility.

Completely serious I think if there are categories of combo heavy characters, this is it



In terms of characters that have more than one method of combo starting, and have various combos doing over 20%. Some have combos that stop working at mid %'s but they are so powerful they make up for it.

Dr Mario, Falco, and Greninja should probably be on that list as well. Falco and Dr Mario both have combo throws with very high reward, as well Down tilts, up tilts and dash attacks that can setup into further aerial followups. Greninja on the other hand has 2 combo throws with high reward, a nair that can combo into virtually anythings, and potent footstool setups.

 

[FullMoon]

You remember people really don't remember Greninja at all in this game when someone talks about combo characters and doesn't include him in the list.

I mean.

N-Air -> Up-Tilt -> Up-Smash (34%, at higher percents you can skip Up-Tilt for 30%)

N-Air -> F-Smash (25%)

Charged Shuriken -> Up-Smash/F-Air depending on % (32%/27%)

Etc.

If Mewtwo has highly damaging combos then Greninja must be totally bonkers once we get down to footstool stuff lol

This character is so forgotten and it's kinda funny because I guess it fits with being a ninja, not gonna complain much about it though. I just find it funny how he manages to completely slip under the radar all the time.

 

[TriTails]

This character is so forgotten and it's kinda funny because I guess it fits with being a ninja, not gonna complain much about it though. I just find it funny how he manages to completely slip under the radar all the time.

Blame offstage Shadow Sneak screwing up gimps every time.

 

[Kofu]

This character is so forgotten and it's kinda funny because I guess it fits with being a ninja, not gonna complain much about it though. I just find it funny how he manages to completely slip under the radar all the time.

Well he IS a ninja. He WANTS to been unseen

I think he's forgotten because he's rather unusual for a viable (well, more than most) character in Smash 4 in that he requires intense precision and practice to get the most mileage out of.

I mean, every character requires dedication and practice to use at a high level. But the combination of Greninja's movement specs, trapping techniques, and consistent optimization is probably in the higher levels of the cast. I mean, why play Greninja and have to use perfect pivots to get your combos really going when you can use ZSS and get cheese kills from UAir chains or BThrow to Flip Jump meteor (the fact that that works is so stupid, I don't even play the character and I can just get that to work like it was nothing).

 

[Man Li Gi]

No offence but you sound like someone who doesn't have a lot of experience with these characters.

If DK doesn't kill someone with a grab, he doesn't kill them until 120 with moves like dsmash bair uair or bthrow. Bowser already killed people at 90 with stuff like with frame 11 downb (can combo from jab) and frame 9 bair.

Bowser's neutral being simpler doesn't mean it's worse. He just doesn't use as many tools as DK because he doesn't need to. Jab is a good spacing option and dashgrab beats so many options. DK doesn't have that dashgrab so he has to mix it up more, and struggles to approach defensive players because he doesn't have safe aerials or any burst that goes through shields. DK's neutral is only better against aggressive players who take to the air a lot. Anyone who knows the camp the fatties will have more trouble in neutral with Bowser than DK.

DK's superior gimping game is less meaningful against the top tiers because most of them are ungimpable anyway. His superior recovery is meaningful advantage though.

How on Earth is Bowser's advantage just as bad as DK's when he has a faster forward air, an aerial grab, and two downward options that can kill. One of which is fast and beats everything, the other of which has a slight stall the ruin shield timings and one shots said shields. I don't think you realise how often Bowser players kill people in disadvantage. Even firebreath is decent if you read that they won't commit to anything until you land. DK has zero landing options. All you have to do is be ready to shield his bair and whether he does it or not it's a free punish.

No ur right m8. Total newb Herr especially in regards to heavies. Total scrubby me, I apologize for my....

Enough of my sarcasm.

In truth, yes DK has to wait longer to get a kill, but DK has a way easier time racking consistent damage and that's what truly matters in this game. I mean Fox has to wait later than ever (in regards in usmash KO % this game) yet is considered top tier because how he easily can make the percents and force situations. Don't get me started on how Sheik Sheiks the ever living Sheik out of people by Sheiking them until they've been Sheiked out.

Bowser has less options to consistently rack damage and kills that don't leave him hella open. Yes he dair with 40 frames of landing. He has a strong bairs with horrid FAF and look at that, 40 frames of landing with just 3 frames of activity to boot. His command grab is legit, but that be it.

No bowser will be coming through the Midwest changing heads. His lack of offstage will make him an onstage character which makes him suffer and makes him fairly linear.

 

[HoSmash4]

No ur right m8. Total newb Herr especially in regards to heavies. Total scrubby me, I apologize for my....

Enough of my sarcasm.

In truth, yes DK has to wait longer to get a kill, but DK has a way easier time racking consistent damage and that's what truly matters in this game. I mean Fox has to wait later than ever (in regards in usmash KO % this game) yet is considered top tier because how he easily can make the percents and force situations. Don't get me started on how Sheik Sheiks the ever living Sheik out of people by Sheiking them until they've been Sheiked out.

Bowser has less options to consistently rack damage and kills that don't leave him hella open. Yes he dair with 40 frames of landing. He has a strong bairs with horrid FAF and look at that, 40 frames of landing with just 3 frames of activity to boot. His command grab is legit, but that be it.

No bowser will be coming through the Midwest changing heads. His lack of offstage will make him an onstage character which makes him suffer and makes him fairly linear.

thats correct. People forget that if everyone started at death %, sheik would suffer a lot. So it's not exactly that she kills better than most of the cast, she just gets everyone to that death % 2x quicker then everyone else in the cast.

 

[warionumbah2]

I've gotten the 6 and even on a T&C and didn't die to it. It had yet kill me. I've died from converted 3 while I was already mid air with shuttle loop. But the early stuff has yet work. I know the power that MK has, but it hasn't worked on me yet.

If possible, do you have replays of this happening? I've been labbing this out since you posted this, the only time the 2nd hit of SL didn't connect was when the I FF after the 1st uair. I staled down SL to 10% and uair to 2%/2.5% and it still killed DK with DI.

I deliberately went for the sweetspot of shuttle loop as well, this was on T&C.

 

[bc1910]

Some controversial opinions coming, don't shoot me fellow frog mains...

Greninja doesn't need perfect pivots. The importance of them is often exaggerated by Greninja mains who, IMO, want to make the character seem more complex than he is. The biggest use for perfect pivots is comboing Dtilt into perfect pivot Utilt, and retreating Dtilt is useful, but they aren't a requirement to play the character.

I... don't think Greninja is a particularly difficult character to use.

He has a simple neutral revolving around a very good projectile, fairly safe pokes after the shield nerf, top 3 mobility and probably the second best dashgrab in the game. What he wants to do is fairly simple. Some of his hitboxes do require a lot of precision, but so do ZSS'. Hell, so do Marth's. It's a common trait in this game to have fairly precise hitboxes. Sure, most aren't as precise as a 2-frame active 16f Fair, but 14% and kill potential on an aerial that can be comboed into and only has 18f landing lag has to be balanced somehow. Greninja was hard after his initial nerfs, but he's received a lot of love since then. With good shurikens comes a good character.

Greninja's neutral is underrated overall. It's very hard to crack an evasive Greninja open and apart from Sheik and Sonic, I can't think of a character who he really struggles to win the neutral against. Fox and Pika are tricky but very beatable in neutral. He's got a good shot vs all the other high tiers and starts running rings around the slower low tiers.

It is indeed concerning that Greninja gets left off a high damage combo list. His basic BnB (Nair Usmash) does 30%. Anything that combos into Fair does 20%+. He gets footstool combos at 0 for a guaranteed 44% or a trickier 68%. He has high damage combos off a lot of attacks. I'd say he has combo potential at least as good as Mewtwo's and is only truly outclassed in versatility by autocomboers like Mario, Pika, Sheik and ZSS. His low risk BnBs often do more than theirs though, especially Sheik who loses a lot of combo potential after mid percent while Greninja still gets 20%+ off simple combos into Fair.

IMO Greninja is harder than your average top tier but not so difficult that he should be turning people off. It's not hard to play his neutral, and he has a combination of strengths in safety, camping and combo potential that few other characters have. But maybe I'm just used to him, because I do see other players use him and do terribly and stick him low on their tier lists.

 

[Thinkaman]

Oh look, Santa left something new under the tree.

 

[Yikarur]

Thinkaman the best <3

WFT is probably the hardest character to get a cross up on since her jab and f-tilt out of shield hit behind her. Her best punishing aerial in bair comes to mind too.

Fox is definitely the best. Frame 3 uptilt for behind and Grab in front are too good.

WFT is a solid character. But you should not overrate it. We have a WFT who placed Top5 at a german national. You can see that a lot of people are struggeling with the match-up.
WFT is definitely not a Bottom10 or probably not even a Bottom20 character. She is probably right in the middle.
But just because a WFT beat Vinnie doesn't mean WFT jumps 20 places in the imaginary tier list.
You have to differentiate and try to think objectively about the facts. I realize most people tend to overhype recent things.
While this is not necessarily a bad thing (hype is hype) but this discussion derives too much because of random hype

But anyway, I'm interested in watching the set. Does anyone have a stream archive to the set? =) (youtube would be better)

 

[Browny]

I just dont buy it that Greninja is a combo heavy character. He has some decently high damage combos he can get from nair but its just so risky and inconsistent. Just then I watched a set of the Japanese Greninja 'Some' and you can count on one hand how many 2+ hit combos he manages to land in any given match.

I know he has combos but the fact that so many of them rely on nair which has low range, makes me not find his combo game as threatening. Some plays hit-and-run very effectively and only goes for combos when he lands a nair but misses them the vast majority of the time when the enemy just shields/attacks it.

It's such a massive difference to someone like mario who has 3 or so ways he can start his usual utilt/uair chains which do more damage and hit pretty much every stock while continuing to get uair chains throughout a stock.

 

[Pazzo.]

Greninja seems like he's been designed for hit-and-run tactics.

Jaw dropping footstool combos are just icing on the proverbial cake.

 

[Y2Kay]

Some controversial opinions coming, don't shoot me fellow frog mains...

Greninja doesn't need perfect pivots. The importance of them is often exaggerated by Greninja mains who, IMO, want to make the character seem more complex than he is. The biggest use for perfect pivots is comboing Dtilt into perfect pivot Utilt, and retreating Dtilt is useful, but they aren't a requirement to play the character.

I... don't think Greninja is a particularly difficult character to use.

He has a simple neutral revolving around a very good projectile, fairly safe pokes after the shield nerf, top 3 mobility and probably the second best dashgrab in the game. What he wants to do is fairly simple. Some of his hitboxes do require a lot of precision, but so do ZSS'. Hell, so do Marth's. It's a common trait in this game to have fairly precise hitboxes. Sure, most aren't as precise as a 2-frame active 16f Fair, but 14% and kill potential on an aerial that can be comboed into and only has 18f landing lag has to be balanced somehow. Greninja was hard after his initial nerfs, but he's received a lot of love since then. With good shurikens comes a good character.

Greninja's neutral is underrated overall. It's very hard to crack an evasive Greninja open and apart from Sheik and Sonic, I can't think of a character who he really struggles to win the neutral against. Fox and Pika are tricky but very beatable in neutral. He's got a good shot vs all the other high tiers and starts running rings around the slower low tiers.

It is indeed concerning that Greninja gets left off a high damage combo list. His basic BnB (Nair Usmash) does 30%. Anything that combos into Fair does 20%+. He gets footstool combos at 0 for a guaranteed 44% or a trickier 68%. He has high damage combos off a lot of attacks. I'd say he has combo potential at least as good as Mewtwo's and is only truly outclassed in versatility by autocomboers like Mario, Pika, Sheik and ZSS. His low risk BnBs often do more than theirs though, especially Sheik who loses a lot of combo potential after mid percent while Greninja still gets 20%+ off simple combos into Fair.

IMO Greninja is harder than your average top tier but not so difficult that he should be turning people off. It's not hard to play his neutral, and he has a combination of strengths in safety, camping and combo potential that few other characters have. But maybe I'm just used to him, because I do see other players use him and do terribly and stick him low on their tier lists.

I think greninja is more unorthodox than he is technical. I can't think of anyone who really likes this guerilla warfare-type playstyle. But after playing him about a couple weeks I got into his rhythm and it was pretty much a wrap.

hey but there's 55 characters, maybe I'm missing someone who also likes this playstyle........

 

[Man Li Gi]

If possible, do you have replays of this happening? I've been labbing this out since you posted this, the only time the 2nd hit of SL didn't connect was when the I FF after the 1st uair. I staled down SL to 10% and uair to 2%/2.5% and it still killed DK with DI.

I deliberately went for the sweetspot of shuttle loop as well, this was on T&C.

For one, it wasn't on my Wii U for the tourney ones, and the ones I faced on Anther's didn't get uploaded by me as they all ended with some Ding Dongs. If I face a good MK anytime soon, I will hit you up. Emphasis on the good tho.

 

[Jaguar360]

I just dont buy it that Greninja is a combo heavy character. He has some decently high damage combos he can get from nair but its just so risky and inconsistent. Just then I watched a set of the Japanese Greninja 'Some' and you can count on one hand how many 2+ hit combos he manages to land in any given match.

I know he has combos but the fact that so many of them rely on nair which has low range, makes me not find his combo game as threatening. Some plays hit-and-run very effectively and only goes for combos when he lands a nair but misses them the vast majority of the time when the enemy just shields/attacks it.

It's such a massive difference to someone like mario who has 3 or so ways he can start his usual utilt/uair chains which do more damage and hit pretty much every stock while continuing to get uair chains throughout a stock.

It's not just n-air man (and N-air is safe on shield...how is it risky and inconsistent?). U-tilt is a crucial combo starter for him (leads into U-air kill comfirm as well as U-air spike -> x mid percents and sweetspot U-smash at low percents) and D-tilt is a good and quick combo starter leading into U-smash and later f-air at high percents. Dash attack to f-air is also a bread and butter combo that does 21%. U-throw --> U-air/B-air isn't high damage, but it's worth a mention too.

He is a hit-and-run character yes, but high damage combos factor in so much into his gameplay that it's weird to not call him a combo-based character.

 

[|RK|]

Oh look, Santa left something new under the tree.

Aww...

 

[warionumbah2]

But anyway, I'm interested in watching the set. Does anyone have a stream archive to the set? =)

Its not on youtube yet. www.twitch.tv/houseof3000/v/30999071?t=3h35m38s

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Being good at countering cross-ups isn't something I would consider a particularly strong selling point. A lot of characters have a serviceable mix of good utilt, usmash, uair or nair that give them quick options to deal with cross-up attempts. And since a lot of these options tend set up nice juggle traps [or other follow ups in case of nair] being able to deal with cross-ups is more like something that you generally have to expect in any matchup.

Really sucks to not have any good options there but I don't think there's a lot of characters it applies to.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

Being good at countering cross-ups isn't something I would consider a particularly strong selling point. A lot of characters have a serviceable mix of good utilt, usmash, uair or nair that give them quick options to deal with cross-up attempts. And since a lot of these options tend set up nice juggle traps [or other follow ups in case of nair] being able to deal with cross-ups is more like something that you generally have to expect in any matchup.

Really sucks to not have any good options there but I don't think there's a lot of characters it applies to.

Aren't crossups and the like generally what dsmashes are supposed to deal with? The vast majority hit behind the player -- only ZSS, Mewtwo, Lucas, Ryu, and eventually Bayonetta don't hit behind them. Although I suppose frame data is a factor. Between having to shield drop and the back hit usually coming out later than the front hit, there can be a lot of wiggle room for the person doing the crossup.

 

[C0rvus]

Its not on youtube yet. www.twitch.tv/houseof3000/v/30999071?t=3h35m38s

Anyone saying Vinnie's Sheik wasn't warmed up, I invite you to watch the set. First match he gets the 2-stock, game two went very strongly in his favor. Then he switches to Cloud for some reason.

 

[Sonicninja115]

Mewtwo's combo game pre patch was pretty decent (nearly everything you listed worked pre patch as well). The issue was that Mewtwo lacked a combo throw and actually landing these combos was more difficult. The issue of lacking a combo throw was sort of resolved through d-throw's new angle (don't know why Mewtwo players are complaining about this, I've been able to land JC U-Smashes nearly 100% of the time at low to mid percents thanks to this new angle) while Mewtwo's other combos have become much easier to land as well as much safer due to the increase reach and lowered lag of several of his moves, along with the buff to his mobility.

Dr Mario, Falco, and Greninja should probably be on that list as well. Falco and Dr Mario both have combo throws with very high reward, as well Down tilts, up tilts and dash attacks that can setup into further aerial followups. Greninja on the other hand has 2 combo throws with high reward, a nair that can combo into virtually anythings, and potent footstool setups.

The opponent needs to learn to jump away... It is the deal breaker. There is a slight 50/50 on Dthrow though.

You remember people really don't remember Greninja at all in this game when someone talks about combo characters and doesn't include him in the list.

I mean.

N-Air -> Up-Tilt -> Up-Smash (34%, at higher percents you can skip Up-Tilt for 30%)

N-Air -> F-Smash (25%)

Charged Shuriken -> Up-Smash/F-Air depending on % (32%/27%)

Etc.

If Mewtwo has highly damaging combos then Greninja must be totally bonkers once we get down to footstool stuff lol

This character is so forgotten and it's kinda funny because I guess it fits with being a ninja, not gonna complain much about it though. I just find it funny how he manages to completely slip under the radar all the time.

Mewtwo has Fair-Dtilt-Nair-Dtilt-Nair-Dtilt-Fair-DJ Uair-Fair. Just saying...

He also has a lot more FF Fair and FF Uair combos.

Mewtwo has better combos then browny let on...

 

[Smooth Criminal]

Anyone saying Vinnie's Sheik wasn't warmed up, I invite you to watch the set. First match he gets the 2-stock, game two went very strongly in his favor. Then he switches to Cloud for some reason.

'Cause he was feeling himself, basically. He lost steam after basically falling flat on his face with Cloud.

Even then, though, it is a local. It's cool that Numbers got the win against such a strong player, but let's see some other stuff before we start saluting the sun like WFT does.

Smooth Criminal

 

[Nobie]

Re: Crossups, I've learned that the best defense as Mewtwo against crossup-heavy characters to just roll or run away, don't even play that game.

 

[meleebrawler]

Re: Crossups, I've learned that the best defense as Mewtwo against crossup-heavy characters to just roll or run away, don't even play that game.

That's Mewtwo's main gameplan: space out the opponent and avoid uncomfortable situations whenever possible. Even with his landing lag buffs (and fair being safe on shield), he still doesn't have the frame data to apply constant pressure.

On the other hand Mewtwo himself is excellent at crossovers with his awesome SHAD, nair, air speed and b-reverse shadow ball.

 

[Radical Larry]

I have a really funny edge-guarding tactic with Link and it involves spamming F-Tilt at least 3 times in one sitting from a safe distance. What should happen is that your opponent will get up after the first one comes out, but get hit by the second one; if not hit by the second one, they will probably go for a grab on the third attack and get hit. If they go for a roll get up, likely possibility is that the first hit will miss, but the second's guaranteed (or you can use U-Smash, U-Spec, F-Smash or D-Smash to counter).

I know it sounds stupid, but it's all about that perfect timing against opponents. This actually does work and it's got a really decent success rate for me. The attack is somewhat slow, but that's the thing that will catch your opponent off guard if they do those two specific get ups.

Also, I believe some people need to start abusing Link's Spin Attack (grounded) stage spiking. That stuff is just silly and frankly, it's dangerous on opponents.

 

[Mazdamaxsti]

Not being able to efficiently to get your high damaging combos still makes you a combo character. Kirby and Faco both have some of the best combos in the game paired with some of the worst mobility, but they are still mainly combo characters.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

Not being able to efficiently to get your high damaging combos still makes you a combo character. Kirby and Faco both have some of the best combos in the game paired with some of the worst mobility, but they are still mainly combo characters.

So does that make them...bad combo characters? If a character has a certain gameplan but has a hard time implementing it...

 

[Big-Cat]

Not quite. Depends on how the combos are meant to be done. Do they require reads, but hit harder than usual as a result?

 

[Illuminose]

I'm pretty sure John Numbers is like 1-tons vs Vinnie overall.

It's one local. Yeah, let's not jump to conclusions.

 

[Sonicninja115]

So does that make them...bad combo characters? If a character has a certain gameplan but has a hard time implementing it...

That is why I am sorta reluctant about Bayonetta, she has a good combo starter, but how good is it at actually hitting? That is why people prefer grab combos IMO, because they are easier (usually) and are pretty reliable.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

That is why I am sorta reluctant about Bayonetta, she has a good combo starter, but how good is it at actually hitting? That is why people prefer grab combos IMO, because they are easier (usually) and are pretty reliable.

Especially since Sakurai made a point of telling us she has bad startup. But I think talking about yet-to-be-released characters (2 months away at this point) is a vaguely dangerous topic. Don't want the mod hammer to come down on us.

 

[Sonicninja115]

Especially since Sakurai made a point of telling us she has bad startup. But I think talking about yet-to-be-released characters (2 months away at this point) is a vaguely dangerous topic. Don't want the mod hammer to come down on us.

That is why i tied in another point, is says something about that in the OP.

It looks like the metagame is slowly going away from grabs. Before, it was completely grab-centric, but now we have Megaman and others making bigger splashes. I am expecting genesis to have many swordsmen.

 

[Djmarcus44]

He has a simple neutral revolving around a very good projectile, fairly safe pokes after the shield nerf, top 3 mobility and probably the second best dashgrab in the game. What he wants to do is fairly simple. Some of his hitboxes do require a lot of precision, but so do ZSS'. Hell, so do Marth's. It's a common trait in this game to have fairly precise hitboxes. Sure, most aren't as precise as a 2-frame active 16f Fair, but 14% and kill potential on an aerial that can be comboed into and only has 18f landing lag has to be balanced somehow. Greninja was hard after his initial nerfs, but he's received a lot of love since then. With good shurikens comes a good character.

Greninja's neutral is underrated overall. It's very hard to crack an evasive Greninja open and apart from Sheik and Sonic, I can't think of a character who he really struggles to win the neutral against. Fox and Pika are tricky but very beatable in neutral. He's got a good shot vs all the other high tiers and starts running rings around the slower low tiers.

While I don't disagree with your comments about Greninja's neutral, there are still easier and better neutrals. Mii Gunner, for example can beat out the options you have listed above with fair and reflector alone. When Gunner adds in the other options he/she has, Greninja doesn't have an easy time getting in. Another example is with Shiek winning neutral against Greninja with needles and fair. I must admit that Greninja has a very good neutral, but it is not as good as the elite neutral games like the ones listed above. Greninja will lose neutral more often than he wins against characters like Sheik, Gunner, Rosalina, Sonic, Pikachu, and Fox.

 

[Mazdamaxsti]

So does that make them...bad combo characters? If a character has a certain gameplan but has a hard time implementing it...

It makes it high-risk high-reward. Balance. Kirby has a 0-74 on Fox, but his bad mobility makes it hard to hit. That's fair kit-wise.

but then you have sheik with a 0-84 which is easy to set up but that's cuz PPs and being technical. fkkin top tiers

 

[BTVolta]

Hope I'm not too late for the WFT discussion, but as far as results go, 2 WFTs got top 32 at Evo(John123456 and Wii Twerk Trainer), and waveguider won Town and Sydney without using customs along with various top 8s from other majors and locals they have that you can find here on Smashboards.

To add to this I'm sure some of you remember The tournament data project that @Rikkhan made that tracked character wins and usage at majors spanning Evo 2015 to Big House. This shows WFT at 21st with her points coming from Evo, Nebulous, and Big House(ANTi). However you take this ranking is up to you, but it does show WFTs results aren't limited to johns recent win and it isn't some out of nowhere bandwagon.

 

[Radical Larry]

So does that make them...bad combo characters? If a character has a certain gameplan but has a hard time implementing it...

Not quite. Depends on how the combos are meant to be done. Do they require reads, but hit harder than usual as a result?

Falco I can vouch has a good combo game out of Up Throw. He can basically link into any of his aerials at various damages just out of U-Throw and the damage racks up pretty quickly; of course, it's hard to get U-Throw > B-Air/D-Air, but it's very rewarding when they connect into their sweetspots.

Falco's N-Air can link very well into his D-Smash if he can cancel out N-Air before it finishes, so that's a decent combo usage right there. The same thing can happen if Falco can B-Air > D-Smash, only that you shouldn't sweetspot B-Air (and instead hit with the late hit) on any damage higher than 20% to connect the attack. It stops however around the 60% mark even at the late hitbox. He can also link N-Air or B-Air (late) into F-Smash, but N-Air into U-Smash also works.

His combos often do not require reads whatsoever, and he can get some guaranteed combos and rack up decent damage. Falco has a guaranteed 0-102 on D3; and no, I'm not making this up. D3 has the worst mobility in the air, has heavy weight and very fast falling, so it's no wonder that I could garner up quite a bit of damage on him on Battlefield. I've tested it on Training Mode, then got someone to help out with DI'ing it, and D3 was able to go around the 82% to 102% ranges. What mostly happened was N-Air and canceling it into U-Throw or U-Air. Since D3 has worse mobility than Falco, I could keep up with the fat penguin pretty well with Falco.

 

[NachoOfCheese]

Is there a patch going out right now or is this just maintenence?

 

[Game7a1]

Is there a patch going out right now or is this just maintenence?

Just maintenance (the link is a good place to check how Nintendo Network and certain games are doing).

 

[S_B]

His combos often do not require reads whatsoever, and he can get some guaranteed combos and rack up decent damage. Falco has a guaranteed 0-102 on D3; and no, I'm not making this up. D3 has the worst mobility in the air, has heavy weight and very fast falling, so it's no wonder that I could garner up quite a bit of damage on him on Battlefield. I've tested it on Training Mode, then got someone to help out with DI'ing it, and D3 was able to go around the 82% to 102% ranges. What mostly happened was N-Air and canceling it into U-Throw or U-Air. Since D3 has worse mobility than Falco, I could keep up with the fat penguin pretty well with Falco.

The battle of the birds.

This is just one of the reasons D3 could use a few buffs. He has a combo throw at low percents, but still struggles on the confirm like most of the heavies did before they were given hoo-haas.

 

[Lavani]

It's kind of funny how Dedede's throw game over the patches went the exact opposite direction of the other heavies. Started with an amazing dthrow that comboed into bair and uair at kill percents that was eventually nerfed to remove kill confirms, meanwhile DK and Bowser go from no followups to (cargo) uthrow>uair kills.

I think at this point reverting that nerf would be justified.