Official Character Competitive Impressions - Tourneys, Tiers, Theories, Tactics

[Big-Cat]

Is anyone else having the most insane fun with Bowser?

With his grab being an actual threat combined with his good run speed, Bowser is pretty terrifying for a lot of characters to deal with. Uthrow combos are super powerful (there is NOTHING more satisfying than Uthrow Bair) and Uthrow Uair kills at very solid percents.

He still loses to rushdown and being zoned out, so most of the top tiers and some of the high tiers still beat him pretty badly. But against the average mid-tier and below, Bowser is really effective.

I don't want to put an arbitrary number on it but I think Bowser's made a really big leap from bottom ~10 to probably the top of mid tier. He and DK are probably about as good as each other, DK might slightly edge him out but there's not much in it.

Bowser, IMO, only has real trouble against very safe rushdown (you know EXACTLY who I'm talking about) and projectiles. That being said, I'd place most of those matchups at 6-4. Maybe 7-3 against Robin. That Arcfire makes things very difficult.

One common issue that Bowser has had is that he's combo food, but Showtime can even this out, but this isn't guaranteed.

 

[Antonykun]

By the way, Beast 6 Ruleset is now set in stone http://beast-series.com/rules/smash4/



First 3 Stock Major hype !

hey that swordfighter set looks really nice
that reminds me, I've been trying to learn how to wavebounce swordfighter's SoL and Chakram since it sounds theoretically useful to be able to shift momentum while throwing out versatile projectiles but OMG is it so tough it feels like im trying to perfect pivot a special :/

 

[Locke 06]

Cloud players need to learn to hold onto Limit Break for the mobility and be a lame butt, running away from everyone to charge it. Throwing away Limit Break to potentially hit with Cross Slash, Blade Beam, etc. is really stupid. You don't take guesses and throw out LB specials with Cloud. You need to wait until you've absolutely confirmed you can land something that's actually worth it (basically never use them until you're ready to kill). Luckily, once that time comes, you got gdlike dash dance and increased mobility to bait stuff.

You should never be hitting a shield with a Limit Break special. It's tempting to use them, but if you don't have it close within full charge or active at the time you're thrown offstage top tier characters will end your stock right there and then.

edit: btw gonna add stage dl in like 30~ minutes yay

On the contrary, I don't think throwing out limit break specials is all that bad since they beat everything. Invincibility/intangibility during the hitbox and transcendence.

Since limit break Cloud doesn't have any pokes to easily do on someone's shield and he has a poor throw game, punishing their OoS option with a limit break special is a strong option since they're also quite safe on block. And if they hit, you get about 1/2 to 2/3rds of your limit back if they're at a decent %. That's as a general rule, but I think limit management will be very MU based (generally want to hold on to limit vs ZSS to discourage grabs and increase mobility, for instance)

Re recovery: characters that have great ledge games will really test Cloud players. After burning your limit to come back from something, you still need to reset and get your footing and ledge pressure can lead to early KO's.

and finishing touch isn't much of an anti-edge guard type move. You shouldn't be able to use it as a reversal (airdodge>down-B or down-B out of hitstun) because it's frame 16.

 

[Djmarcus44]

Sheik's will not always be completely aware of the spacing of the 50/50 bouncing fish option that will lead to them getting hard punish.
Again this is the example i was talking about.
https://twitter.com/BearUNLV/status/679184795365019648
She uses needles? You can just keep charging limit. I'd take a limit break if it means i take 20% damage. Fair is a slow move but its there for covering your space as it outranges sheik's fair and gives sheik something to think about when trying to go offstage.
If you watch Cacogen vs Nicko you'd see Cloud can still do good vs sheiks disadvantage.

Cloud still has one of the best punish games in the game and its ignorant to think that his metagame will develop slower than others because you think he is super easy to play. (Which he probably is.)

Yes warionumbah2 k9 beat nicko but Nicko still beat cacogen with a 6 day old cloud, when he wouldnt have a chance with his marth.

Yes a lot of cloud's kill tools are 'reads' but we never talk about ike having trouble killing and he reads bigger reads.

Cloud's punish game is pretty good, but it is not among the best in the game yet. He is still too weak against sheilding (he gets very little out of a throw, and he has no moves that are safe against out of shield options) to have one of the best punish games.
At this point in the game, Cloud's neutral is better than his punish game due to the quick options he has and the ability to cancel limit break charging into attacks. His neutral is very good overall since he can force most of the cast to approach him by charging limit break and blade beam, and he approaches well due to his speed and fast aerials.

 

[warionumbah2]

I wouldn't be surprised if Sheik's Fair outranges Cloud's (not that it matters since Fair is one of Cloud's worst moves). Someone should check.

Sheiks Fair outranges his Nair.

 

[Y2Kay]

Sheiks Fair outranges his Nair.

that's just......not f-air

 

[DanGR]

This comparison ignores the other ~330 degrees of disjointed hitboxes Cloud's nair provides, as well as its different knockback angle, damage, hitbox duration, amount of disjoint (not just range), etc.

Do you really feel comfortable comparing two moves with completely different use cases?

 

[Blobface]

For the record, Sheik leans wayyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy into her F-air, so it's range, especially with her horizontally small hurtbox, can seem ridiculous. Having a character roll to the edge of BF then visually seeing how far the aerial reaches into BF using the platform is generally a more accurate way to gauge the range of a move.

It is true that Sheik's F-air is absurd (leaning into a move doesn't matter if you can weave back or your hitbox shrinks to the size of a grape the second you land), but exaggerating is unnecessary.

 

[DblCrest]

idk. I just get experimented on and suffer from mako poisoning while living out delusions of my dead best friend/savior.

I think your head is in the clouds honestly hehe

Looking at vanilla Crossslash and its uses can't you mix things up between slashes in case someone shields or escapes to chase or grab them? Limit Cross slash is great way to KO near the edge of the stage but I'm not seeing much use of vanilla. What is it good for?

I like using it for catching people who land after an upthrow.

 

[Nobie]

How you decide to use your Limit Breaks is probably going to be a cool space for many styles of Cloud to emerge.

That said, I do think there are certain limitations to saving it just for LB Climhazzard. Namely, when you have the Limit Break and decide not to use it, you're actually restricting a decent chunk of your moveset. You can't use your projectile anymore. You can't dash side b anymore with wanton abandon. Down B changes entirely but kind of counts too. It's not like Little Mac who doesn't even need his Neutral B because it's bad otherwise, and still has access to the rest of his specials.

 

[Mario766]

Cloud can't use his awful proojectile



Damn. Such a loss.

I'd gladly give it up for enhanced mobility and a better sh

 

[S_B]

How you decide to use your Limit Breaks is probably going to be a cool space for many styles of Cloud to emerge.

That said, I do think there are certain limitations to saving it just for LB Climhazzard. Namely, when you have the Limit Break and decide not to use it, you're actually restricting a decent chunk of your moveset. You can't use your projectile anymore. You can't dash side b anymore with wanton abandon. Down B changes entirely but kind of counts too. It's not like Little Mac who doesn't even need his Neutral B because it's bad otherwise, and still has access to the rest of his specials.

This is true, but you also gain an intimidation factor because your opponent will forever be waiting for the LB special to come out.

You're basically holding a mini-KO punch the entire time.

 

[Locke 06]

I think your head is in the clouds honestly hehe

Looking at vanilla Crossslash and its uses can't you mix things up between slashes in case someone shields or escapes to chase or grab them? Limit Cross slash is great way to KO near the edge of the stage but I'm not seeing much use of vanilla. What is it good for?

I like using it for catching people who land after an upthrow.

What is a f10 move that deals 19% with mixup potential on shields good for?

I dunno. It's probably a terrible move. It doesn't kill well or start combos.

Nobie - totally agreed. It's like how some Lucario players actually dislike fully charged aura spheres or Sheik players and fully charged needles because they lose access to the charging shenanigans. Not having vanilla blade beam and cross slash takes away two of his biggest low risk tools. Depending on the matchup, I don't mind throwing out limit blade beams for option coverage (not to hit) like I would normal blade beams. Or, having the increased mobility can really help you punish characters with low cool down. Player style has a lot to do with it.

 

[Rizen]

@anyone who thinks Link is braindead: stop playing for glory.

Cloud would be well balanced if there was some way to knock LB out of him like with Mac's KO punch. The problem is he's very well equipped to abuse the competitive mindset of running and making the opponent put themself at a disadvantage to engage him.

 

[bc1910]

I don't know about sheik but Mario is/will be Cloud's worse MU by far, not even close.
cape reflects even the OL projectile and the upb loses to fludd all the time since it never sweetspots, also his weight is great for his combos

Greninja is pretty bad for Cloud for the same reasons. Except he can also angle Hydro Pump straight down, so no matter how low Cloud tries to recover he can't avoid the water.

He doesn't beat Cloud that bad up close (though he does out-frame him with jab alone) but he zones him pretty effectively and can punish a lot of his spacing with dashgrab. He can abuse Cloud's disadvantage extremely well, too.

I could legit see Mario, Sheik and Greninja in that order being Cloud's worst 3 MUs.

 

[FullMoon]

Hydro Pump does look like it'll be the bane of Cloud's existance when he's offstage lol

Absolutely no risk in trying to gimp him with it. I haven't played a single Cloud yet though so I can't really talk much about the MU in particular, but it being one of his worst MUs? Not too confident on that front.

 

[meleebrawler]

Cloud can't use his awful proojectile



Damn. Such a loss.

I'd gladly give it up for enhanced mobility and a better sh

Now, would you say that for Ryu? The frame data for his and Cloud's projectiles are very similar. Behold the best example of Street Fighter fireball wars in Smash when these two meet (besides Ryu dittos).

Normal Blade Beam works well enough against characters who are poor against zoning, as well as a poke and landing trap like hadouken. It's good enough that I actually avoid charging Limit all the way to use it until killing percents. It's versus strong zoners that you want the added mobility of Limit and transcendent Blade Beam to instill respect.

 

[Asdioh]

On the contrary, I don't think throwing out limit break specials is all that bad since they beat everything. Invincibility/intangibility during the hitbox and transcendence.

I'm a bit late, since others have already said similar things, but this is what makes a good Cloud so scary. Unlike Mac, and kind of like Wario, Cloud gets to hold onto his trump card as long as he has his stock. He can choose to hold onto it forever for better mobility+pretty good recovery, or he can throw it out at any given moment, or as part of a combo for a lot of damage, or early kills.

Cloud would be well balanced if there was some way to knock LB out of him like with Mac's KO punch. The problem is he's very well equipped to abuse the competitive mindset of running and making the opponent put themself at a disadvantage to engage him.

This is actually pretty true. Imagine how terrifying Mac would be if you couldn't knock KO punch out of him by giving him knockback after a few seconds pass.
Imagine if Kirby couldn't have Copy powers knocked out of him randomly :|
Well, Kirby loses powers in his games, and Cloud loses limit breaks in his game only if he uses it, or if he dies.
I'm not sure how Mac's KO punch works in his games, but I imagine it's something like how it works in smash.

Sheiks Fair outranges his Nair.

Well, "forward" aerials generally reach farther "forward" than "neutral" aerials, so it kind of makes sense.

 

[bc1910]

Hydro Pump does look like it'll be the bane of Cloud's existance when he's offstage lol

Absolutely no risk in trying to gimp him with it. I haven't played a single Cloud yet though so I can't really talk much about the MU in particular, but it being one of his worst MUs? Not too confident on that front.

Care to elaborate on why you're not confident on that front? Kinda annoying that you just ignore the points in my fairly well-considered, if overly enthusiastic, post, and disagree with a blanket statement. Not for the first time either.

It's way too early to call anything like this anyway, which I'm fully aware of. Greninja just has a certain combination of strengths that look particularly difficult for Cloud to deal with.

 

[Radical Larry]

@anyone who thinks Link is braindead: stop playing for glory.

Cloud would be well balanced if there was some way to knock LB out of him like with Mac's KO punch. The problem is he's very well equipped to abuse the competitive mindset of running and making the opponent put themself at a disadvantage to engage him.

First off, let me say that thank goodness there's someone who can agree Link isn't braindead. Some people have the mindset he's just a bad character because all they normally see is an FG Link.

On a side note, recently I went against an amazing Diddy Kong player, and while I did lose the game, I completely lost it on the first match against him. Something came over me and I swear I went the equivalent of Super Saiyan 3. I have the match recorded, and it was a ranked match from Anther's Ladder. Only one other occasion have I gone ape on someone and that was on an unfortunate Duck Hunt player.

But it's true, Cloud needs to have his Limit nerfed in some degree. Maybe the charge rate can be lowered to double the time it takes to charge.

I'm not sure how Mac's KO punch works in his games, but I imagine it's something like how it works in smash.

No, he loses a little bit of bar whenever he's hit. His KO Meter is based off of the original Punch Out!! arcade games as well as his Star Punch from the Wii game. However, he doesn't lose a little bar when hit by an opponent in Smash Bros., but rather he gains more bar than when he hits. The KO Punch depletes in the same fashion as his Star Punch from the Wii game AND taking damage from an opponent in the arcades and SNES games. When you use up the attack in the Wii version, all stars will be used up just like how KO Punch goes, and if you're hit, you lose KO Punch (akin to losing meter from the original arcade games).

 

[FullMoon]

Care to elaborate on why you're not confident on that front? Kinda annoying that you just ignore the points in my fairly well-considered, if overly enthusiastic, post, and disagree with a blanket statement. Not for the first time either.

It's way too early to call anything like this anyway, which I'm fully aware of. Greninja just has a certain combination of strengths that look particularly difficult for Cloud to deal with.

I can't really elaborate, like I said, I haven't played against a single Cloud yet and I haven't seen much of what he can do yet. I'd have to get some actual experience (and good one) in order to form thoughts on the matter.

For all I know you could be completely right in your statements, but for now I'm just skeptical about it until I see some actual proof of it being a bad MU for Cloud. This is all theorycraft after all.

 

[S_B]

I can't really elaborate, like I said, I haven't played against a single Cloud yet and I haven't seen much of what he can do yet. I'd have to get some actual experience (and good one) in order to form thoughts on the matter.

For all I know you could be completely right in your statements, but for now I'm just skeptical about it until I see some actual proof of it being a bad MU for Cloud. This is all theorycraft after all.

No Clouds online...at all?

I'd laugh like crazy if the day Cloud was released I went into FG and only encountered Robins, Bowser Jrs., and Marths or something...

 

[IsmaR]

Considering Cloud can use FT's windbox to gimp other Clouds, I wouldn't doubt at all that Greninja (and to Mario, with Cape in addition to F.L.U.D.D.) give Cloud absolute hell just by exploiting his situational recovery alone.

 

[FullMoon]

No Clouds online...at all?

I'd laugh like crazy if the day Cloud was released I went into FG and only encountered Robins, Bowser Jrs., and Marths or something...

Emphasis on good experience.

Plus I haven't played this game online for a long time now. I've been sticking mainly to offline and after having a reasonably big tournament here in Brazil I've been taking a break so I won't get burnt out.

 

[Kresent]

Limit break buffs are great but you guys make it sound like you should always have full charge. IMO, it's better to only charge to like 80% limit most of the time (especially at lower percents). You don't need limit when both players are at low percents, so why remove access to so many of your moves? You lose a projectile (not good for projectile wars but a great stage control/landing trap tool), a safe-ish on shield side-B, and you lose the charging shenanigans with down b (escaping tumbles, landing laglessly, baiting attacks). If you charge to 80%, you get to keep access to those moves but if you were to get knocked off stage, you will either get LB from getting hit, or be able to charge it just enough off stage to get LB Up-B.


And as far as saving it always, I disagree too. LB Neutral B is a great shield pressure tool (can also be shot into walls and other projectiles to create a temporary barrier, good for shooting at the ledge while trying to recover) and LB Side B is safe on shield too. At higher percents, if you hit with a LB move, you get to charge 50+% back because you shouldn't be chasing them off stage as Cloud without full Limit anyway.

Everyone is talking about Cloud's recovery, and yeah, it's bad. But I think people are overstating it. It's bad, but he has a way to make it better AND the better Cloud players get, the better they will get at stage control and avoiding situations where they get put off stage (just like the relevant Little Mac players have done). Did we forget how good having big and disjointed sword normals can be for spacing?


TL:DR
Cloud has bad recovery but it will become less relevant (not completely irrelevant though) as Cloud players get better at stage control.
Don't always charge Limit Break fully (Especially at lower percents) and don't always save your limit (why get it at 0% if you won't use it until they are at 90%? You're giving up tools for that entire time and the threat of your limit break moves aren't as scary until they are at higher percents anyway.) Don't be afraid to use your limit while at low percents because you can get it back so fast.

 

[Sonicninja115]

I think Cloud is incredibly balanced. I doubt he will get any buffs to anything. Though it depends on if any game breaking techs or weaknesses suddenly appear.

 

[C0rvus]

I love how when I say Link is braindead, literally everyone assumes I've only played For Glory Links. Thanks for the vote of confidence, guys. One of my few tournament set wins of note was against a Link, at SKTAR this year. It's not like I know nothing about the character. The characters that EmblemLord listed in his post were a clear cut above Link in terms of physical and mental strain. Maybe in his hard MUs it can be hard to play the character, but that's a given. The guy is a whirling ball of strong disjoints and projectiles, now with strong guaranteed down throw combos. Precision is the last thing that comes to mind when Link is brought up. Not to bash the character or bring down his players, but lets not fool ourselves. He's not hard to play.

 

[Sonicninja115]

I love how when I say Link is braindead, literally everyone assumes I've only played For Glory Links. Thanks for the vote of confidence, guys. One of my few tournament set wins of note was against a Link, at SKTAR this year. It's not like I know nothing about the character. The characters that EmblemLord listed in his post were a clear cut above Link in terms of physical and mental strain. Maybe in his hard MUs it can be hard to play the character, but that's a given. The guy is a whirling ball of strong disjoints and projectiles, now with strong guaranteed down throw combos. Precision is the last thing that comes to mind when Link is brought up. Not to bash the character or bring down his players, but lets not fool ourselves. He's not hard to play.

I think there is a tier of characters designed to be easy to pick up. The nice thing about these characters is that they are usually hard to master on a competitive level. Like, Little Mac is probably the easiest character to play in the game. But on a competitive level, he requires precise timing and MU knowledge. As well as stellar DI.

 

[C0rvus]

I agree, and I don't want it to seem like I think being easy to play is a bad thing. Your character is simply an agent through which you play the game. If anything, playing a character that gets in the way of you and the game the least a good thing. Playing the other player is possibly the biggest part of high level play. After execution becomes a given, and MU knowledge is more or less even between players, it comes down to playing the player.

 

[Pauleke]

I think Cloud is incredibly balanced. I doubt he will get any buffs to anything. Though it depends on if any game breaking techs or weaknesses suddenly appear.

He might be balanced at high level play, which will satisfy most people here I would figure, but he seems just easy enough to dominate lower and mid level play. In my semi-competitive circle, the worst players on Cloud are beating the best players on their mains fairly regularly. Now, that obviously could be matchup unfamiliarity but I didn't notice the same thing happen with Ryu when he came out. It's too early to tell until we start to get some results from higher level tournaments, but I think he might be too forgiving at low level play.

Basically, I don't see Cloud winning too many majors or regionals(yet, anyway), but I see him doing very well in locals and in casual settings.

 

[G. Stache]

Bear in mind before reading into this post that, yes, some characters are easier to learn than others. Much easier at times, in fact. That's just how fighting games tend to go, really (at least, that's how smash goes).

If we all use our magnificent brains and think back to the discusion of character archetypes ( those archetypes being brain, body and heart) we can go on and easily conclude that being 'braindead' means requiring little to no tech skill. Personally I don't mind being the guy who uses the 'braindead' character as long as I like the playstyle or the character itself (Luigi fitting both of these requirements). What I don't understand is how people ignorantly call out how I, or some other player, only won because my character requires no technical skill. That's blatantly disregarding A) the two other types of characters (Heart and Body, which are equally as competitive as Brain) and player skill. Just because a character is braindead doesn't mean it's heartdead or bodydead (sorry for making these terms, but it's for the best). That being said, there were characters that WERE dead in all these areas to the point where it was unhealthy for our metagame (Luigi and Diddy come to mind). But, my point is, just because a character is braindead doesn't mean the character is incredibly easy to use at top level play.

Take Cpt Falcon and post-nerfed Luigi. They fit the braindead category, but are very strong in the heart and body department. With those two, you have to read for your kills, or complete a combo to put the enemy in a unfavorable position (like a position where you can edgeguard). But they can struggle against top level play because top tier characters/players can exploit their weaknesses. Weaknesses that can't be nullified by technical depth because they simply don't have any. Just one more point, and this is tying it to melee Kirby. Kirby in melee is known for being ****e. We know this, but do we also know just how easy Kirby is to use? Seriously, his game consists of suicide tactics and getting the foe offstage to use his surprisingly decent air game for edgeguards. Kirby is quite possibly the most braindead character in Melee. Yet, guess what? He's still literal garbage. Being braindead doesn't mean free wins, it usually means your character requires work in another area of his/her game. Obviously it goes deeper than this, but just getting the basics out.

I'm not trying to single out anyone who rants about braindead characters being essentially free condition, as much as spreading a bit of knowledge as to why some characters shouldn't take much technical skill. Anyways, I'm tired and it's quite possible that this post is either gibberish or just a bunch of bad points sloppily thrown together. So I'd like to end it like this: I'm sure most of us know by now that being 'braindead' isn't necessarily a bad thing for a character, but those of you who don't; understand that should see that every original character has certain strengths. Some of those strengths require technical skill, others require other skill sets. Don't use 'braindead' as an excuse as to why a player outplayed you. And finally, to those who take offense to the term 'braindead': why do you listen to those ignorant people who complain about your character. You know that your character does and what there strengths are. Don't listen to others as to why you won, because their rationalization is what we call 'Johns'.

 

[Pauleke]

Bear in mind before reading into this post that, yes, some characters are easier to learn than others. Much easier at times, in fact. That's just how fighting games tend to go, really (at least, that's how smash goes).

If we all use our magnificent brains and think back to the discusion of character archetypes ( those archetypes being brain, body and heart) we can go on and easily conclude that being 'braindead' means requiring little to no tech skill. Personally I don't mind being the guy who uses the 'braindead' character as long as I like the playstyle or the character itself (Luigi fitting both of these requirements). What I don't understand is how people ignorantly call out how I, or some other player, only won because my character requires no technical skill. That's blatantly disregarding A) the two other types of characters (Heart and Body, which are equally as competitive as Brain) and player skill. Just because a character is braindead doesn't mean it's heartdead or bodydead (sorry for making these terms, but it's for the best). That being said, there were characters that WERE dead in all these areas to the point where it was unhealthy for our metagame (Luigi and Diddy come to mind). But, my point is, just because a character is braindead doesn't mean the character is incredibly easy to use at top level play.

Take Cpt Falcon and post-nerfed Luigi. They fit the braindead category, but are very strong in the heart and body department. With those two, you have to read for your kills, or complete a combo to put the enemy in a unfavorable position (like a position where you can edgeguard). But they can struggle against top level play because top tier characters/players can exploit their weaknesses. Weaknesses that can't be nullified by technical depth because they simply don't have any. Just one more point, and this is tying it to melee Kirby. Kirby in melee is known for being ****e. We know this, but do we also know just how easy Kirby is to use? Seriously, his game consists of suicide tactics and getting the foe offstage to use his surprisingly decent air game for edgeguards. Kirby is quite possibly the most braindead character in Melee. Yet, guess what? He's still literal garbage. Being braindead doesn't mean free wins, it usually means your character requires work in another area of his/her game. Obviously it goes deeper than this, but just getting the basics out.

I'm not trying to single out anyone who rants about braindead characters being essentially free condition, as much as spreading a bit of knowledge as to why some characters shouldn't take much technical skill. Anyways, I'm tired and it's quite possible that this post is either gibberish or just a bunch of bad points sloppily thrown together. So I'd like to end it like this: I'm sure most of us know by now that being 'braindead' isn't necessarily a bad thing for a character, but those of you who don't; understand that should see that every original character has certain strengths. Some of those strengths require technical skill, others require other skill sets. Don't use 'braindead' as an excuse as to why a player outplayed you. And finally, to those who take offense to the term 'braindead': why do you listen to those ignorant people who complain about your character. You know that your character does and what there strengths are. Don't listen to others as to why you won, because their rationalization is what we call 'Johns'.

Ness is another fantastic example of this in Sm4sh. He has a braindead bread-and-butter combo and one of the best killthrows of any game, which makes him fairly high tier. However, his bad matchups and somewhat simplistic set of options keeps him from being S tier. Imagine if Rosalina didn't exist, I'd be willing to bet Ness would have been nerfed significantly because of how easy he can be against most of the cast.

 

[Sonicninja115]

Ness is another fantastic example of this in Sm4sh. He has a braindead bread-and-butter combo and one of the best killthrows of any game, which makes him fairly high tier. However, his bad matchups and somewhat simplistic set of options keeps him from being S tier. Imagine if Rosalina didn't exist, I'd be willing to bet Ness would have been nerfed significantly because of how easy he can be against most of the cast.

How advanced is Ness? Is he just considered brain dead because people haven't labbed him enough?

 

[Pauleke]

How advanced is Ness? Is he just considered brain dead because people haven't labbed him enough?

Pretty brain dead.

Your major combo is pretty simple. You basically want to set up Grab->Dthrow->Fair->Fair->If possible SideSpecial->If possible UpSpecial(risky but fun). You can sometimes UAir instead of Fair but it wont combo into anything I don't think. PK Fire sets this combo up easily, and Ness' dash grab is satisfactory in other cases.

The first three to four steps are guaranteed at low percentages-mid percentages and are a great way to rack up damage. The last two steps don't always work but if you do it right, and they don't expect PK Thunder 2, you have yourself an easy stock in ~10 to 20 seconds. Otherwise this combo is just to get damage up there, and it's really easy to learn.

Eventually they get to a point where you can kill throw them. You do that.

The hardest things about Ness are his recovery, which you can't do much about, and some PKThunder 2 mind games that are risky but fun. His side tilt, dash and aerials are good enough at racking damage for the kill throw. He has other kill options they just aren't as reliable as Back Throw.

Just to compare him to Lucas, Ness' combos don't require you to follow DI as much, you have fewer options(especially recovery) but other than recovery they are better options. Lucas has multiple Dthrow combos at varying percents into varying aerials that require good spacing and knowledge. Ness doesn't really have that. Lucas has a fair number of mix ups while Ness would rather just go with what works. It's easy to get off to a 30% lead with Ness if you net a PK Fire or a grab, while Lucas can do the same but with more inputs/more difficulty, though the Lucas Nair buff may change that.

 

[JesterJaded]

He might be balanced at high level play, which will satisfy most people here I would figure, but he seems just easy enough to dominate lower and mid level play. In my semi-competitive circle, the worst players on Cloud are beating the best players on their mains fairly regularly. Now, that obviously could be matchup unfamiliarity but I didn't notice the same thing happen with Ryu when he came out. It's too early to tell until we start to get some results from higher level tournaments, but I think he might be too forgiving at low level play.

Basically, I don't see Cloud winning too many majors or regionals(yet, anyway), but I see him doing very well in locals and in casual settings.

^Little Mac was this in a nutshell when the game first came out, and low-level players demanded nerfs. Lo and behold, the nerfs came.

 

[Pauleke]

^Little Mac was this in a nutshell when the game first came out, and low-level players demanded nerfs. Lo and behold, the nerfs came.

This is why I really hesitate to say "OMG CLOUD SO OP SAKURAI PLS" even though at my level of play he's incredibly strong and a little overwhelming at the moment. I don't know that he's good enough at the top to really warrant nerfs unless he gets some sort of buff in compensation that overall makes him less of a "pubstomper." We'll definitely see in time.

 

[Teshie U]

I wouldn't say braindead is related to tech skill. Most people use that to refer to flowcharty playstyles regardless of how technical it might be.

Braindead character designs allow you to pick options without having to really consider your opponent's options.

 

[Sonicninja115]

I wouldn't say braindead is related to tech skill. Most people use that to refer to flowcharty playstyles regardless of how technical it might be.

Braindead character designs allow you to pick options without having to really consider your opponent's options.

So on a low level, characters like little Mac are considered brain dead because a Fsmash will beat out most options? They have a move powerful enough that they can spam it?

And I agree wholeheartedly with the flowchart analogy.

 

[SaltyKracka]

I don't know that I'd necessarily consider Little Mac braindead, but I will say that he's the worst piece of game design I've ever seen in Smash.

Strong or weak, Mac as he is now is just plain boring.

Half of it is his KO punch and how it affects any match ups he has. The other half is that he only gets to really play the neutral game; his advantaged state is nil since he's always knocking people away with tilts and smashes, and his disadvantage comes down to well timed side Bs and guessing games with his counter.

 

[UberMadman]

Strong or weak, Mac as he is now is just plain boring.

Half of it is his KO punch and how it affects any match ups he has. The other half is that he only gets to really play the neutral game; his advantaged state is nil since he's always knocking people away with tilts and smashes, and his disadvantage comes down to well timed side Bs and guessing games with his counter.

Sounds like you haven't seem much in the way of high level Little Mac play; if you watch Solreth play him, he always finds interesting ways to move about the stage to string Mac's moves together, (he actually has quite a few followups off of up/down tilt, for example). Watching high level Mac play is like watching an actual boxing match; one opening in the opponent's defense is all either of them need. The only thing I would agree with is he doesn't have any good options in disadvantage, but that's one of the interesting things about watching people succeed with the character; good Little Mac players don't LET themselves get disadvantaged very often because they are constantly moving around and mixing up their gameplan.