John12346
Smash Master
Okay, let me rephrase the question there.
How about a public discussion about opening a poll, then?
How about a public discussion about opening a poll, then?
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Character Bans
- Thread starter Flutter NiTE
- Start date
Ripple
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- Messages
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lol, you guys should just wait until the BBR has a new director of public relations and when the BBR themselves has settled on what to do regarding MK. i.e. if we discuss it, bbr-rc discusses it, or whatever
Ripple, I'm not sure what counts as leaking, so be careful about that, just sayin' :x what was said about a public discussion is definitely a no for now, but depending on the circumstances and whatnot I think they'll revisit their position if it seems necessary/reasonable. Either way, no opening up a discussion anytime soon, if anyone opens a public discussion it will be one of the BBR officers when a conclusion is reached. The BBR realizes that this is a topic that deserves attention and is trying to find the best way to approach it, but please understand that the situation needs to be handled delicately and will take some time to progress.
Also, +1 for John#s doing awesome stuff on a regular basis. I'm interested in how you constructed that tier list of yours, can you PM me a general sumamry of how you went about it?
Also, +1 for John#s doing awesome stuff on a regular basis. I'm interested in how you constructed that tier list of yours, can you PM me a general sumamry of how you went about it?
John12346
Smash Master
Wait, so the BBR IS talking about it?
I don't want to shove any ideas or plans in your face, and I know you want to keep the # of leaks you have at a bare minimum, but if you do come to such a conclusion that MK deserves a re-evaluation, will you guys ultimately talk to the BRC with intention to persuade them to take up the result of said re-evaluation?
If that kind of information is too private to speak out in public, could you at the very least PM me about it? I won't let a word of your answer slip out in that case.
Also, there wasn't any real complicated plan on my tier list. I just started by arranging the tier list based on how I perceive each character's ability to win a match, then I turned to my data to correct any inaccuracies I may have had. I used the amount of money each character won, the number of successful users for each character, and each characters' success/usage ratio to fine tune any problems my tier list may have had.
I don't want to shove any ideas or plans in your face, and I know you want to keep the # of leaks you have at a bare minimum, but if you do come to such a conclusion that MK deserves a re-evaluation, will you guys ultimately talk to the BRC with intention to persuade them to take up the result of said re-evaluation?
If that kind of information is too private to speak out in public, could you at the very least PM me about it? I won't let a word of your answer slip out in that case.
Also, there wasn't any real complicated plan on my tier list. I just started by arranging the tier list based on how I perceive each character's ability to win a match, then I turned to my data to correct any inaccuracies I may have had. I used the amount of money each character won, the number of successful users for each character, and each characters' success/usage ratio to fine tune any problems my tier list may have had.
So many live edits lol. Interesting @ your tier list info, for some reason I thought you had a more concrete formula-type thing that you used for it 
Not quite, we are considering what to do about talking about it in the BBR. It's such a sensitive topic that we need a decent amount of time just to figure that part out lol... I'm going to stop there, because that's all I really know and if there ever is a discussion confirmed there will probably be some unnecessary issues on the rest of the boards so imo it'd be best if the BBR kept that part to themselves :x
If it is decided that there needs to be a re-evaluation, I'm pretty sure the BBR will work with the BRC to figure out a way to go about the whole thing. Can't imagine why not tbh, seeing how the BRC has the Unity Ruleset and whatnot :x
Not quite, we are considering what to do about talking about it in the BBR. It's such a sensitive topic that we need a decent amount of time just to figure that part out lol... I'm going to stop there, because that's all I really know and if there ever is a discussion confirmed there will probably be some unnecessary issues on the rest of the boards so imo it'd be best if the BBR kept that part to themselves :x
If it is decided that there needs to be a re-evaluation, I'm pretty sure the BBR will work with the BRC to figure out a way to go about the whole thing. Can't imagine why not tbh, seeing how the BRC has the Unity Ruleset and whatnot :x
Leave it to the BBR? This may take a while....not seeing any of it doesn't help either
There needs to be some sort of poll though. The BBR/BRC or whoever will run this shouldn't make such a huge decision by themselves.
So yeah, waiting starts.
There needs to be some sort of poll though. The BBR/BRC or whoever will run this shouldn't make such a huge decision by themselves.
So yeah, waiting starts.
John12346
Smash Master
Why not just open a thread in the BBR, link everyone to what has transpired in this thread, give a brief summary of all the points we're trying to make, and say, "What do you think of this?"?
But seriously, I don't want to rush you guys, because as you said, MK is a really controversial topic and you should definitely approach it in the safest way possible to avoid any possible rage wars back there, but I guess the above would be a pretty decent format to base the thread on or something?
And... one more thing... if you guys start a discussion back there on whether or not MK should be publicly re-evaluated to determine whether or not he should be put under the gun of a ban vote again, would you... maybe... tell us when you do so? It's alright if you don't, but it'd definitely give us something to look forward to and stuff. We don't exactly want to be left in the dark, if you know what I mean.
In any case, I guess the rest of us will carry on with this discussion... although I think we already covered all of the points we needed to cover...
But seriously, I don't want to rush you guys, because as you said, MK is a really controversial topic and you should definitely approach it in the safest way possible to avoid any possible rage wars back there, but I guess the above would be a pretty decent format to base the thread on or something?
And... one more thing... if you guys start a discussion back there on whether or not MK should be publicly re-evaluated to determine whether or not he should be put under the gun of a ban vote again, would you... maybe... tell us when you do so? It's alright if you don't, but it'd definitely give us something to look forward to and stuff. We don't exactly want to be left in the dark, if you know what I mean.
In any case, I guess the rest of us will carry on with this discussion... although I think we already covered all of the points we needed to cover...
-Ran
Smash Master
Just raise up your hands, and listen to the man asking you to give you his energy. Keep doing what you guys are doing. Let the Z-Fighters handle this.
John12346
Smash Master
Well, if we're gonna keep doing what we're doing, we should consider completing this list, so we actually have a case when and if the time comes.
What's So Good About MK?
- MK has won about 45% of all tournament money in 2011 so far, which is an increase of 15% from 30%, which he held during the last ban vote.
- MK has 118 different users who have won at least $20 with him(<$20 isn't significant), while Snake only has 44 such users.
- MK has extremely strong options on his counterpick, such as the infamous Brinstar/RC combo(as well as Frigate and Delfino, depending on the MU) in the face of his opponent's one stage ban.
- MK is agreed to have no disadvantageous matchups, and very little to no even matchups.
- MK, as a character, has extremely strong abilities and options that completely eclipse those of other characters, such as an abnormally large recovery, a ground game that works outside the frame of human reaction, and many unusually high priority or glitchy moves.
- MK is capable of stalling out many matches to time, through the use of tools that include but are not limited to: planking, scrooging, and air camping.
- MK has multiple surgical and arbitrary nerfs in the current Unity Ruleset designed to keep him within an acceptable legal boundary, such as the IDC/EDC controversy, and the lower LGL that is directly targeted as him.
I might be pushing my luck on the whole "MK is very strong as a character because of his tools" business, but that's a legitimate topic... right?
What's So Good About MK?
- MK has won about 45% of all tournament money in 2011 so far, which is an increase of 15% from 30%, which he held during the last ban vote.
- MK has 118 different users who have won at least $20 with him(<$20 isn't significant), while Snake only has 44 such users.
- MK has extremely strong options on his counterpick, such as the infamous Brinstar/RC combo(as well as Frigate and Delfino, depending on the MU) in the face of his opponent's one stage ban.
- MK is agreed to have no disadvantageous matchups, and very little to no even matchups.
- MK, as a character, has extremely strong abilities and options that completely eclipse those of other characters, such as an abnormally large recovery, a ground game that works outside the frame of human reaction, and many unusually high priority or glitchy moves.
- MK is capable of stalling out many matches to time, through the use of tools that include but are not limited to: planking, scrooging, and air camping.
- MK has multiple surgical and arbitrary nerfs in the current Unity Ruleset designed to keep him within an acceptable legal boundary, such as the IDC/EDC controversy, and the lower LGL that is directly targeted as him.
I might be pushing my luck on the whole "MK is very strong as a character because of his tools" business, but that's a legitimate topic... right?
Would it be more plausible to show(from your data) the 118 users out of the total amount of users(not uses) for MK in addition to saying that MK has much more unique users paying higher than the next highest character? Like MK obviously has much more users(and uses) than Snake. I think it'll paint a brighter picture about how MK almost equals money(at least $20 dollars).
John12346
Smash Master
Uh... what? I think you're asking for what you just quoted...
There are 118 different people who have used MK and have won at least $20 with him.
There are only 44 different people who have used Snake and have won at least $20 with him.
Re-word your request, because it's kind of confusing me.
There are 118 different people who have used MK and have won at least $20 with him.
There are only 44 different people who have used Snake and have won at least $20 with him.
Re-word your request, because it's kind of confusing me.
John12346
Smash Master
Should that ??? be:
- the total amount of different people who have used MK and won money with him
or
- the total amount of different people who have used MK
???
- the total amount of different people who have used MK and won money with him
or
- the total amount of different people who have used MK
???
WoodyWiggins
Smash Journeyman
Meta Knight isn't the issue. It's the stages that make Meta Knight an issue.
I know I'm not the only person to think of this, but, check it out:
http://allisbrawl.com/forum/topic.aspx?id=181238
I know I'm not the only person to think of this, but, check it out:
http://allisbrawl.com/forum/topic.aspx?id=181238
The second one lol. Sorry about the wording.
John12346
Smash Master
Oh, well, I can't do that, unfortunately. I haven't been keeping track of that, and backtracking like that would take a stupidly large amount of time and messaging to figure all of that out...
Its just plain silly that they would shoot down an MK ban thread because of trolls. Trolls are gonna troll ANY major topic of discussion. Look at the results thread of any major tournament. Maybe BBR shouldn't have made a tier list because people will troll the thread. Maybe this entire forum should be shut down because of all the trolling.
How about modding these topics HARD. Add special rules for threads list this and double the points on infractions (or if you can temp ban people for specific sub forums or threads, DO THAT).
But STOP trying to win the battle by simply preventing it.
How about modding these topics HARD. Add special rules for threads list this and double the points on infractions (or if you can temp ban people for specific sub forums or threads, DO THAT).
But STOP trying to win the battle by simply preventing it.
John12346
Smash Master
Well, strictly speaking, I'm advocating for the following threads:
- A discussion on whether or not we should open a poll.
- A locked thread with the poll in it.
One only indirectly discusses the banning of MK, and the other can't be posted in, so I figure it would draw less flames in that scenario, y'know?
Edit: Also, people, if you have something to add/revise to that "What's So Good About MK?" list that I posted above, by all means, go ahead and add it in.
- A discussion on whether or not we should open a poll.
- A locked thread with the poll in it.
One only indirectly discusses the banning of MK, and the other can't be posted in, so I figure it would draw less flames in that scenario, y'know?
Edit: Also, people, if you have something to add/revise to that "What's So Good About MK?" list that I posted above, by all means, go ahead and add it in.
If I recall correctly, the problem was mostly flaming and spam posts.
The threads back then needed constant moderation, and I'm pretty sure mods complained otherwise they wouldn't be saying that.
MK always wins the battle.
"Victory is my destinyyyyyyyyyyyyy"
Increasing the amount of points for spamming and trolling in the topic means you don't have to deal with the same guy derailing the topic 6 times. You only have to get him 3 times or twice or even just once. If mods can't handle that, maybe they should stop being mods. Its not that hard to skim through reported posts and see if someone is just trying to damage the discussion.
John12346
Smash Master
I know it's a rule of thumb to not ask for modship on an Internet forum, since it makes you sound like a n00b, but I think this would be a special case, because my only intent is to ease the load that such a thread would put on the moderators. Plus, it's an extremely important topic to me, so it's very likely I'd be watching that thread like a hawk, 24/7...
I also have experience modding a few other sites, so w/e. Just... please don't think I'm throwing this idea out of left field, or that I'm aiming for some position of power on the site; I'm only proposing a solution that would enable such a topic to survive, and temporarily electing a person of interest to watch it very carefully would be an extremely effective solution to the problem.
Actually, screw it, The above solution will cause more harm than good in the long run, and I honestly feel a little sick for thinking of it in the first place.
Moderators, if management of such a thread is honestly so hard that you can't simply ban a few repeat offenders, then maybe you should consider temporarily electing more people for the job. It shouldn't be necessary, though, for all of the reasons outlined by Tesh on the previous page.
Flutter NiTE
Smash Lord
This isn't even a "Ban MK thread" entirely, it's what all of you turned it into
•Col•
Smash Champion
- Joined
- Nov 19, 2007
- Messages
- 2,450
Yeah, I'm reporting all of you for making off-topic posts!!!!
metaknight da bess
But in all seriousness, several people have already explained why what you're suggesting is a bad idea. D:
-Ran
Smash Master
All they'd really have to do is temp-ban anyone that trolled until the voting/thread was over. Being a douche would remove your ability to vote.
John12346
Smash Master
Ran, I said this a few times now, but would you suppose that opening a thread to discuss whether or not MK should be re-voted on, followed by a thread that:
- is locked
- contains the poll vote(with the voter filter, obviously)
- contains the arguments from both sides
would be much less likely to draw flames and trolling than if we only make a ban poll thread that isn't locked?
And I also made a request, but never got an answer on it, but... I understand that a lot of you BBR members are still trying to figure out a way to bring up the discussion within the confines of the BBR, and I understand all of the care you're taking before popping such a question, considering how touchy the subject is... but do you suppose you could at least let us know when and if you actually start that discussion? We really don't want to be kept in the dark on this matter, and you shouldn't be leaking anything too drastic in terms of information if you tell us this one and only thing...
I'd also be willing to make a generalized public statement encompassing all of the user-generated reasons behind the rationale of re-opening a discussion on MK, so hit me up on that, while you're at it, k?
- is locked
- contains the poll vote(with the voter filter, obviously)
- contains the arguments from both sides
would be much less likely to draw flames and trolling than if we only make a ban poll thread that isn't locked?
And I also made a request, but never got an answer on it, but... I understand that a lot of you BBR members are still trying to figure out a way to bring up the discussion within the confines of the BBR, and I understand all of the care you're taking before popping such a question, considering how touchy the subject is... but do you suppose you could at least let us know when and if you actually start that discussion? We really don't want to be kept in the dark on this matter, and you shouldn't be leaking anything too drastic in terms of information if you tell us this one and only thing...
I'd also be willing to make a generalized public statement encompassing all of the user-generated reasons behind the rationale of re-opening a discussion on MK, so hit me up on that, while you're at it, k?
-Ran
Smash Master
I really can't say much, since I'm waiting on replies at the moment. Just know that the people that care are trying their best. The Back Room is in the middle of elections right now, so our leadership is rather lax since there's going to be a lot of transitions occurring.
John12346
Smash Master
Well, I understand why you can't leak much regarding the second and third paragraphs, but the first question was more of an "in your opinion" kinda thing, so could you just answer that one for now, just for my peace of mind?
Also, elections? What for...? Or am I poking too deep here...?
Also, elections? What for...? Or am I poking too deep here...?
-Ran
Smash Master
Every year, the major positions in the Back Room are voted on. It's just that time. Also, I can't really give a personal opinion on it, since I'm tied up rather deep in the situation.
John12346
Smash Master
Rats, I guess you didn't fall for my ruse! I was hoping to get my hands on some more... confidential information, and that seemed like a good place to strike.
Oh well, I guess the best we, as users, can do for now is just pitch some ideas around, as it's pretty obvious at this point that quite a few BBR members have their eyes on this thread, and if we can help instigate some ideas for our pro-re-evaluation side, then we should do everything we can.
MK26
Smash Master
isnt ripple doing that?
edit: 118/988 = 12%
44/411 = 11%
Where is your
diddy: 31/274 = 11%
falco: 36/256 = 14%
wario: 24/203 = 12%
marth: 23/318 = 7%
ics: 23/144 = 16%
but then again the use count has multiples and the winners count doesnt
but either way mk isnt far and away beyond everybody else
Conviction
Human Nature
Simple solution to Trolls: Room ban.
#HBC | Red Ryu
Red Fox Warrior
- Joined
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- Milwaukee, Wisconsin
- NNID
- RedRyu_Smash
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Forum support is a great place to go and show your concern of forum policy. If you don't like the outlaw of discussing MK that is where you can at least ask about it.
That said, you should either talk about the OP's post and not about banning MK.
That said, you should either talk about the OP's post and not about banning MK.
Supermodel From Paris
Smash Hero
I think the biggest problem with banning MK ban discussion is that you've made us feel powerless to change anything. There's been a lot of really strong reasonable discussion in this thread.
Steam
Smash Hero
pretty much this ^
we're having tame intelligent discussion... I don't see what's wrong with it.
we're having tame intelligent discussion... I don't see what's wrong with it.
John12346
Smash Master
Not quite, MK26.
We want the number of different MK mains, not the number of times MK has been used.
Assume there's only been 2 tournaments in 2011, and Mew2King was the only MK main in the world and he attended both tournies. Ripple's data would show "2" for MK, but we'd want to divide 1 by 1, not 1 by 2, resulting in 100%, rather than 50%. It can make a big difference, especially considering I have a LOT of MK mains who have won money from a lot of different tournaments.
In this case, if you wanted to divide over Ripple's numbers, you'd want to use the amount of money a character has won by those numbers. ICs win that, but only because of Ally's outlier performance at Pound 5, where he won 350/700/1050 for ICs by using them in only one match. When we remove that instance, MK is in the lead.
Actually, here, I'll just show you the graph. This is when we exclude Ally's winnings for ICs at Pound 5, and we divide "Average" by "Usage":
Also Red, cuhmaaawn, we're keeping the discussion really mild mannered...
MK26
Smash Master
that chart doesnt seem quite as preposterous as '45% of all money goes to mk!', does it?
Conviction
Human Nature
YO tell me why Ryu can't be chill like Ish -____-