Character Bans

[Chuee]

Meta Knight should not be banned.

 

[Man of Popsicle]

Some people only use one character. One terrible character that requires significant time investment. aka screw this

 

[John12346]

Regardless of your stance on his legality, Chuee, you cannot deny that he, at the very least, deserves a re-evaluation of his character as a whole.

A lot of things have changed since the last ban vote, and he definitely needs to be looked at again.

 

[-DR3W-]

I think a large portion of anti-ban voters are people who rely on Meta Knight (and his 5 jumps + glide + 4 recoveries/crazy range/priority/many kill moves/little to no lag/scarcely punishable tornado) to make up for the losses that their normal character can not prevail over.

I would love to see this legitimately be re-discussed and re-voted upon.

I'd say ban the mofo! More-so because of the variation we would see in the tournament/competitive scene than the reasons I posted above. It would be fun, you have to admit, to watch something we haven't seen since the beginning of the game - variation.

 

[Chuee]

Regardless of your stance on his legality, Chuee, you cannot deny that he, at the very least, deserves a re-evaluation of his character as a whole.

A lot of things have changed since the last ban vote, and he definitely needs to be looked at again.

Cool
but he won't be banneddddddddddddd

 

[-DR3W-]

Cool
but he won't be banneddddddddddddd

Stop trying to be cool and try posting intelligent **** for once. This is the reason many other Meta Knight threads are locked, my friend - idiocy.

 

[san.]

Here were the initial arguments formulated at the 4th poll

Pro-ban

Spoiler

1. Metaknight is bannable.
2. Metaknight is the best character in the game by a significant margin.
3. Metaknight has a perfect recovery and an abnormally safe ledge game.
4. Metaknight has too many safe options.
5. Meta Knight breaks the counterpick system.
6. Metaknight detracts from the metagame.
7. Meta Knight is a very serious detriment to the mid level of play.
8. The community favors a ban.
9. Meta Knight is already clearly bannable, but we have artificial and unclear rules in place to keep him in the game.
Counterpoint #1- The game is still growing and evolving
Counterpoint #2- Metaknight really IS too good/over centralizing

2,5, and 8 have only gotten worse. The rest can still be argued in some way. I'm not entirely sure about the mid-level play and 3+4. They may be true but those traits by themselves may not be too bad.

This was created at a time MK held roughly held 22% of all tournament places. Right now, MK holds much more than that percentage in tournament winnings.

Anti-Ban

Spoiler

Argument #1: Metaknight is not broken.
Functional definition for "broken": Character somehow ignores game mechanics, cannot be beaten, or has some random uncontrollable effect.
Argument #2: Metaknight does not dominate the metagame.
Argument #3: The game is still growing and evolving.
Argument #4: Implying that Metaknight breaks the counterpick system also implies that Brawl is a game based on counterpicking.
Argument #5: Metaknight’s extraneous circumstances are already resolved.
Metaknight has been explored to the point where stalling has been a major issue with the character. However, the two primary methods of stalling already have solutions
Counterpoint #1: Metaknight is too good and/or over-centralizing.
Counterpoint #2: Metaknight circumvents the current counter picking system.
Counterpoint #3: Metaknight is easy to use and makes the game less fun and less fair.

I am unsure how people can think that 2,3,4 and 5 hold today. MK's dominance has grown. Growth and evolution towards MK dominance is not a good thing for some. Brawl IS pretty heavily based on counterpicking. Stage discussions are among the hottest of topics. For #5, it's apparent that it's not.

1 is just a battle of semantics.

Much has changed over the last few years.

 

[Steam]

Stop trying to be cool and try posting intelligent **** for once. This is the reason many other Meta Knight threads are locked, my friend - idiocy.

that's all part of his plan <.< >.>

but yeah... we should get an official thread for this. or at least a new title and new first post with a bunch of info in it about how MK is progressing

 

[BSP]

Just add to the list, guys:
- MK has won about 45% of all tournament money in 2011 so far, which is an increase of 15% since the last ban vote.
- MK has 118 different users who have won at least $20 with him(<$20 isn't significant), while Snake only has 44 such users.

Also note, if we wait even longer for some reason, the gap's just going to get bigger. Snake has been falling farther and farther and yet farther behind MK, and no one else is really catching up to snake.

Add to the fact that most top players are pocketing him just in case, MK is nearly guaranteed top 3 at any national or big tournament. No one is catching him anytime soon.

 

[F A N G]

If MK is banned, it could open the door for other bans

Without MK, could Diddy or Snake be the next MK?

Just thinking about it

 

[ChKn]

Diddy and Snake have unfavorable MUs compared to MK.

We can't predict exactly to which characters the winnings will go with MK gone. If there's a distribution between a greater amount of characters, then the ban is justified.

 

[Chuee]

without mk diddy and snake would probably dominate most of the meta game anyways.
*shrugs*

 

[T.J.]

It looks like there is easily enough evidence to go for a ban on MK. But there also might be some risks, like diddy or snake just taking over after that, taking all the wins.

Maybe what is needed to be done now is some sorta test. like for 2 weeks or so ban him for small tournys and see how the numbers change. if its for best, then yeah ban, if its all diddy everywhere, games broke anyways. Just a idea though.

 

[BSP]

We won't know for sure until it happens

I don't think Diddy or Snake could reach the same level of dominance as MK though. We are definitely going to have "the best characters". My guess are Snake, Diddy, and Falco. However, it's only a problem if one them reaches a level where MK is now. I doubt that will happen since these guys are not 100% cp proof, and have unfavorable matchups.

This is all theorycraft though. We need to focus on MK now. If we don't do anything, we can watch what variety we have left -> MK vs X and MK's gap continue to increase.

 

[Juushichi]

Maybe Marth becomes relevant with an MK ban.

 

[Steam]

Maybe Marth becomes relevant with an MK ban.

as would tink/peach/D3

 

[Tesh]

Marth will still suck.

 

[C.J.]

Marth will still suck.

It's true

 

[z00ted]

Snake and Diddy taking over the metagame is a very poor argument.

Keep in mind that Metaknight has absolutely no bad matchups, practically no bad stages (after he strikes), and he has a plethora of stages to choose from to counterpick his opponent to.

Snake and Diddy simply do not have that and it's already apparent in our current metagame. The Unity Ruleset has even somewhat justified that Metaknight alters the game by implementing the specific LGL on him. Yet they ban Pictochat (a stage that is highly used by Diddies, Falcos, and Snakes), which really doesn't help anyone but Metaknight out at all.

San's post was extremely well written. People should focus more on those claims.

I'm glad I provoked this discussion and it didn't get locked immediately.

 

[Chuee]

Snake and Diddy simply do not have that and it's already apparent in our current metagame. The Unity Ruleset has even somewhat justified that Metaknight alters the game by implementing the specific LGL on him. Yet they ban Pictochat (a stage that is highly used by Diddies, Falcos, and Snakes), which really doesn't help anyone but Metaknight out at all.

To be fair, Diddy and Snake could arguably have no disadvantaged MUs with MK banned but meh.

 

[Ussi]

Best characters exist but Snake and Diddy are not characters you can pocket so easily and expect success.

Well they seem to have a significant amount of even MUs

 

[John12346]

Well, to be fair, there is a gap between Snake and the rest of the cast as far as success...

...but it's nowhere near as large as the one between MK and the rest of the cast.

I really can't see there being one single dominant force in the meta-game with MK out of the picture. For starters, we have claims from all over the place saying that Snake/Diddy/Falco/ICs will be the next MK, but when we consider the fact that we have a lot of theoretical overpowered characters in the face of a MK ban, isn't that just saying that more characters will become viable? Sure, in the end there will be a "best" character, but I'm pretty sure we can be guaranteed a significantly more balanced game without MK being legal in it.

Also, I'm gonna go ahead and add to my list:
- MK has won about 45% of all tournament money in 2011 so far, which is an increase of 15% since the last ban vote.
- MK has 118 different users who have won at least $20 with him(<$20 isn't significant), while Snake only has 44 such users.
- MK has extremely strong options on his counterpick, such as the infamous Brinstar/RC combo(as well as Frigate and Delfino, depending on the MU) in the face of their opponent's one stage ban.

 

[z00ted]

To be fair, Diddy and Snake could arguably have no disadvantaged MUs with MK banned but meh.

Are you serious?

This isn't even going off of the Brawl Back Room Matchup Chart (which would list MUCH more), just my opinion on where I think the current metagame stands.

has FOUR characters that beat him: and

has THREE characters that go even with him: and

has TWO characters that beat him: and

has SIX characters that go even with him: and

 

[Ishiey]

John#s, I wouldn't necessarily say this is a "legitimate" thread for such a discussion, but as far as I am aware no rule is being explicitly broken. I don't even moderate this part of SWF lol, just doing what I can to prevent trouble and encourage healthy discussion, y'know?

EDIT: Basically, I haven't talked to anyone else on the staff about this, I'm just going with previous rulings on the issue afaik. Not like anything here is under my jurisdiction anyways

 

[Chuee]

Are you serious?

This isn't even going off of the Brawl Back Room Matchup Chart (which would list MUCH more), just my opinion on where I think the current metagame stands.

has FOUR characters that beat him: and

has THREE characters that go even with him: and

has TWO characters that beat him: and

has SIX characters that go even with him: and

That's why I said arguably.
I've heard notable people say snake goes even with said characters you listed that beat him. Same with Diddy. Also going even has nothing to do with disadvantaged MUs.

 

[John12346]

John#s, I wouldn't necessarily say this is a "legitimate" thread for such a discussion, but as far as I am aware no rule is being explicitly broken. I don't even moderate this part of SWF lol, just doing what I can to prevent trouble and encourage healthy discussion, y'know?

EDIT: Basically, I haven't talked to anyone else on the staff about this, I'm just going with previous rulings on the issue afaik. Not like anything here is under my jurisdiction anyways

Oh... I see...

Well, let's keep the discussion going, anyway. At the very least, we'll show 'em we're capable of handling this topic maturely, so let's do it!

 

[z00ted]

Everyone in their right mind knows that and easily beat .

the same goes for and beating

 

[Chuee]

Everyone in their right mind knows that and easily beat .

the same goes for and beating

I don't know about marth but I've heard both Atomsk and coney say D3 doesn't win.
As far as snake beating Diddy, I know ADHD said it was even while gnes said snake wins.
As far as wario I know Felix thinks it's even or slightly in Diddy's favor, and If I remember correctly DMG said it was possibly even.
So yeah, I guess those people are crazy.

 

[Steam]

regardless of what it is. neither diddy nor Snake go 6-4 or better with most of the roster while everyone knows the matchup retardedly well. with MK gone people will start learning the diddy and snake matchup... but even now they don't demolish everything that isn't MK.

 

[John12346]

What Steam said.

Also:
Marth is a really stupid MU for Snake. Definitely one that both sides agree on as tough for Snake.
And the Diddy boards have their MU against Snake recently set as a -1.

So there we have it, I suppose.

 

[san.]

Pika is also considered pretty good (at least even) vs Snake.


I understand the point Illmatic is trying to make.
The top characters other than MK still have quite a few MUs they consider threats/have the disadvantage. In addition, the top characters will compete with each other as the dominant force.

As Chuee said, top players still have somewhat variable opinions on a lot of the high tier MUs, also.


Concerning MK and domination, how much is enough? Most of the money from other high tiers come from MK mains' secondaries from what I notice, and many more secondary MK regardless.


Concerning "Is it not just M2k/Ally dominating?" Even years back, when M2k and Ally were outliers for their respective characters, MK's superiority above other characters was apparent at every level of play.
Since MK has increased 15% to 45% in earnings, a 50% increase, one can only assume that the graph has MK at even higher levels.

 

[Tesh]

Considering the amount of skill it takes to play an efficient Diddy Kong and how he has defined weaknesses and can be punished very hard for a mistake, I don't think it would matter to most if he beat everyone or went even.

 

[John12346]

Uh, San, I like all of the points you made in that post, but in the last line, it's 30% to 45%, and it's a 15% increase...

 

[BSP]

Centralizing is inevitable and we're going to have it. Overcentralizing is a problem though.

I can't see Snake or Diddy becoming so good to where they establish a lead like MK has now.

 

[san.]

Uh, San, I like all of the points you made in that post, but in the last line, it's 30% to 45%, and it's a 15% increase...

Oops, I was thinking of 50% of 30%, but even then, numbers aren't exactly static.

Increased 15% to 45% should have been written increased by 15% from 30% to 45% to be more clear.

 

[John12346]

Oops, I was thinking of 50% of 30%, but even then, numbers aren't exactly static.

Increased 15% to 45% should have been written increased by 15% from 30% to 45% to be more clear.

Oh, now I see it, lulz. Typing percentages and phrasing them to not be confusing is hard, so don't worry about it. "Increased by 15% from 30% to 45%" sounds about right.

Now, onto the real problem. Why do we have a character increasing their winnings by so drastic of an amount?

 

[BSP]

regardless of what it is. neither diddy nor Snake go 6-4 or better with most of the roster while everyone knows the matchup retardedly well. with MK gone people will start learning the diddy and snake matchup... but even now they don't demolish everything that isn't MK.

also, those two can't be pocketed to protect you from all CPs, and they can't CP you to a stage heavily in their favor comparable to MK/brinstar.

Like I said, I can't see any other character building a lead or usage that rivals MK's.

 

[Flutter NiTE]

mhmm... Did anyone actually read my OP and think it was actually a good idea? instead we have this huge metaknight debate.

 

[John12346]

Sorry, Nite, the main problem is that your solution hurts EVERYONE who mains one character, and really badly.

It's also a really random rule tossed out of left field, and is extremely alien to the other rules we have in place.

But... what makes you think this rule is good? I want to hear your reasoning.

 

[WindMajor]

Nite, in a nutshell, your rule hurts more than it helps.