CASUAL ELITISTS vs COMPETITIVE ELITISTS!!!!

[TheBuzzSaw]

Personally, I think my wall is right on the border of technical skill. I've pretty much got everything else down, but frame intensive stuff like WDing and L-cancel? Er...not so much.

Wavedashing and L-canceling are not frame-intensive. Samus' super wavedash is very frame-intensive (I do believe it is a one-frame window of opportunity).

 

[BigRick]

Oh and casual is actually hard to define. Some casuals are more...er...casual(?) than others? Some are fairly good, just need to polish their skills. Some couldn't K.O. a lvl. 1 Mr. Game and Watch (I've met a few. I almost cried)

I guess that my 4 year old niece is a pro then.

She beats level 1s with ease.

 

[Ogre_Deity_Link]

Nah. Beating a lvl. 1 Mr. Game and Watch is FARRR from pro. I'm talking about level of...n00bishness and/or casualness.

And frame intensive to me is anything less than a seconds worth of time. I have a hard time with WDing (of course, I use Link and he's not easy to WD with...) And L-canceling I hear you need to be within a few frames of landing so...ya.

 

[JEBesh]

yea sure casuals can gain skill there's no doubt about that

but you said true skill

80% of competitive players doesn't even have it, there's always an aspect of their game holding them back

you think that a casual would have it?

nearly everyone, if not everyone, has an aspect of their game holding them back.

by "true skill" i meant just that, actual skill. i was referring to buzz's earlier post saying that casuals' definition of skill is distorted or something along those lines. i never said that a casual is going to reach the pinnacle of smash as far as level of play goes, but very few do. this elitist view is what sets a lot of the casuals i've seen off.

If my logic is "horribly flawed", how come casual players act like there is a line? They call my tactics cheap, but they fail to define how much I have to hold back in order to not be cheap. They remind me of how Comcast advertises unlimited Internet but yell at their customers for exceeding some limit.

If they truly do not follow a set of standards, then they just need to say so. If they truly have no standards, then why do they complain when they have their butts handed to them by "cheap" players? Are they not just better? Why can't casual players just admit that? What is it about their ego that has to generalize us in that we lack "true skill"? You claim to know what a "casual player" is, yet you overlook the fact that they are the ones marching into the forums and calling all competitive players cheap. As I said before, I have zero opposition to casual gameplay. It is their attitude towards competitive players that bothers me.

And yes, there is a wall that casuals cannot surpass. For each player, it is different. For some, that wall is as silly as Link's up-B. >_>

Did you even read my post at all? You said "they" or "their" or "casual players", referring to them as a definite group, 15 times. you either didn't read it or you didn't grasp what i was saying.

STOP general views of the opinion of an entire group of players simply because the examples you have seen are not flattering ones. insulting the individuals in question is fine if you don't mind sinking down to their level, but you just make a fool of yourself in grouping everyone together like this.

your attitude towards the casual community bothers me as well, but do you see me making obsurd statements degrading the competitive community as a whole?

 

[SWORDMASTER X7]

I am just fine with casuals playing causally. But I simply don't enjoy playing casually now. I used to enjoy casual free for all matches with items even when I played with advance techniques. And then I started going to touraments frequently. My 3 casual and my 3/4 competive friends forced me into all of these free for all item matches when I simply wanted to get better at smash, at first I was okay with it, but it got worse and they tried talking me out of playing competetively and we did more casual matches and I quickly started to not enjoy casual matches. Even now, they don't want me too play comepetively.

 

[TheBuzzSaw]

Did you even read my post at all? You said "they" or "their" or "casual players", referring to them as a definite group, 15 times. you either didn't read it or you didn't grasp what i was saying.

STOP general views of the opinion of an entire group of players simply because the examples you have seen are not flattering ones. insulting the individuals in question is fine if you don't mind sinking down to their level, but you just make a fool of yourself in grouping everyone together like this.

your attitude towards the casual community bothers me as well, but do you see me making obsurd statements degrading the competitive community as a whole?

Yes, I read your post. I am referring to the casual players who are outspoken against advanced tactics. You would know that if you followed my posts more closely. I am not applying these statements to all casual players. I am referring to a select group of stubborn players who refuse to accept the competitive lifestyle. Somehow, casual gameplay is perfectly acceptable, but competitive gameplay sets people off. My attitude toward the casual community is a direct byproduct of their attitude towards us. They criticize us for playing the game NOT like they do.

 

[BentoBox]

Imagine the community as a potential gigantic orgyfest! You wouldn't want to miss out on such a thing AMIRITE? (sponsored by lube. inc!) But the best way to a man's heart isn't by labelling them as fgts! (Because we all are deep down inside!) Hencee why we should all hold hands and warmsticks!

Mucho lubz~ xoxoxoxxoxo



p.s. whats a casual elitist? o,o

 

[Terrorcon Blot]

Hello, I'm Terrorcon Blot, and I'm a casual.

I could, can, and will not compete on a level of a tournament player. Believe me, I tried. Got schooled bad at an anime convention a few months back.

But I am not the dreaded casual. The one who tosses down the controller in a huff and says that you cheated/were cheap/generic insult.

I take loses in stride, hope to learn from them, and concede that my opponent was better. If some random element (stage hazard, item, heck, even freak controller not working 100%), I'm not about to blame anyone. A loss is a loss to me, and there is potential for improvement always.

That said, I cannot (as the constantly linked Sirlin page says) "Play to Win". It's not my mentality going in. Not how I fight. I play off the Gentleman's Ideal. "To play to win, is to completely miss the point of a competition". Do I fault others for having the Sirlin mentality? Hardly. It's simply not mine.

In the end, the elitists are always my least favorite part of anything. They're always the most vocal, going to the other side "No, YOU". It's pointless, and gives both sides of the argument a bad impression. And that we argue about things we like. It's a shame. Casual? Competitive? Suddenly these are dirty words because both sides have those few who cause them to be perceived as a stereotype.

 

[Banana_Dragon]

Well, just to get back on topic in relation to the first post that, ya know, said we should all get along...

*GROUP HUG*
*especially Gimpy!*

Items on big blue, no items on final destination...
We all play smash and these very forums were created by Gideon to talk about and share our experiences with a common interest.
Let's use these forums for that.

Peace.

 

[JEBesh]

Yes, I read your post. I am referring to the casual players who are outspoken against advanced tactics. You would know that if you followed my posts more closely. I am not applying these statements to all casual players. I am referring to a select group of stubborn players who refuse to accept the competitive lifestyle. Somehow, casual gameplay is perfectly acceptable, but competitive gameplay sets people off. My attitude toward the casual community is a direct byproduct of their attitude towards us. They criticize us for playing the game NOT like they do.

sigh. i don't think you understand.

if you're talking about a group of individuals that you have personally come in counter with, that's fine. but constantly grouping them with the casual community and the casual community with them, which is exactly what the words you are using implies, is not fair at all, and you just did it again in this post. no one is a representative of anyone but themselves unless they hold an official position to do so.

you constantly keep arguing against "casual players" and not "people that did not agree with the competitive scene and did not have the composure and/or intelligence to express this view in a way that doesn't offend the entire party.. who happened to be casual players".

 

[FightingGameGuy]

And frame intensive to me is anything less than a seconds worth of time. I have a hard time with WDing (of course, I use Link and he's not easy to WD with...) And L-canceling I hear you need to be within a few frames of landing so...ya.

Wavedashes just need to be inputed before your character finishes his jump which is 4/5/6/7/9 frames depending on your character. Link happens to be a 7 frame character. That means he's actually among the 4 easiest characters to wavedash with. (You might have confused ease of WDing with its effectiveness -- Link is the 3rd worst wavedasher.)

If you can short hop, (where you must release jump before the frame in question) then all you have to do to wavedash is push a button and a direction instead of releasing a button. Since you said L-canceling and WDing are the only things you have trouble, I think you could easily get WDing with a bit of practice.

I don't mean to denigrate you or your dedication to learning techniques or anything, I just feel a lot of people greatly exaggerate how difficult WDing is and feel your comments about how these techniques elude you are contributing to what I feel is a widely help but incorrect notion, especially as you are at least partially wrong in your facts. (Mine are taken from the Official Everything thread or whatever they call it and frames guides I found on the DC++ hub.) Similar to many anecdotes, I've never met someone in real life who couldn't wavedash after 10 minutes of practice. In my college dorm I taught at least 5 people how do it in that amount of time.

------

1 second is an incredibly long period of time in video game, let alone a fighting game. For example, it's the entire duration of all 3 of link's slashes during his upsmash. Rolls range between 31-39 frames for their entire duration. By your standard rolling would be an advanced technique ...

 

[Pookiez]

im half competitive half not, i wavedash l cancel only againt sum1 who is got at melee

I can't not do ATs it's just imbeded in my head... unless i go into super ******** level 9 tilt a lot mode.

 

[Pookiez]

Sorry, pet peeve.

It's spelled y'all. Short for you all.

Sorry, pet peeve.

"y'all" or "you all" is a redundancy because the word "you" is already plural.

 

[Dylan_Tnga]

Imagine the community as a potential gigantic orgyfest! You wouldn't want to miss out on such a thing AMIRITE? (sponsored by lube. inc!) But the best way to a man's heart isn't by labelling them as fgts! (Because we all are deep down inside!) Hencee why we should all hold hands and warmsticks!

Mucho lubz~ xoxoxoxxoxo



p.s. whats a casual elitist? o,o

Sup bento box I cant believe I smash with someone from the brawl forums lol XD

This thread is dumb play however you want dont give people ****, easy. And for the love of god if you didnt win its your fault.

 

[The Hypnotist]

Now, gimpyfish, I know your god, and I didn't read the thread yet. But the problem with the main post is the casuals (some of them) say they don't l-cancel because it's a GLITCH and we are cheaters who can't win without glitches. And that's simply bull****.

 

[crismas]

So here's the easy to solve all this.

If you like the competitive scene go to tournies, weeklies, bi-weeklies whatever. That way you're with people who all think the same and won't complain.

If you like casual play then stick with people who like casual play and no one will complain.

There's no way everyone is gonna get along as long as someone get's offended and won't accept the other side. Me? If I'm with people who like casual only I just kinda level and relax and have fun. I like the competitive scene so I stick to that. Works the same way around really if you're casual you don't have to change your way of playing but if you want instead of fighting it...just be open to new ideas.

That's just how I see the whole arguement.

 

[Kokichi]

But the problem with the main post is the casuals (some of them) say they don't l-cancel because it's a GLITCH and we are cheaters who can't win without glitches. And that's simply bull****.

If that's the problem that everyone's complaining about, then just don't listen to those people. I wouldn't even say those people fall under the "casual players" category...they're just flame provokers, looking for a fight. Sure, they may of a point, which is that we're exploiting the game's physics in order to do more advanced techniques, but I feel that that exploitation actually further enhances the game's replay value and level of depth. I believe that is the general consensus with most people. If you feel like exploiting is exploiting, then sure, think that way, you have every right too. But if you lose a match to someone who does those things, realize that they take a decent amount of skill to pull off accurately. You don't have to be a competitive battler to do wavedash or l-cancel.

Now, if the argument here is that there are some people (casuals) who feel like the game should only be played as a casual game and that tournaments are either unfair or pointless, then I would listen to their arguments, but would feel like they're missing the bigger picture. Videogames can be played on either a casual level or a professional level, just like sports. Do they feel that sports should be confined to scrimmaging and not professional leagues? If you don't want to spend the time to become a pro and you're happy just scrimmaging, then fine, do that. I love soccer scrimmages and playing games just for fun, and I don't have any sort of interest in becoming a professional goalie, but I certainly understand and respect those people that do.

 

[Gimpyfish62]

needs moar hatred.

 

[Ogre_Deity_Link]

needs moar hatred.

i hat u gmpyfsh




J/K

 

[Eternal phoenix Fire]

lol seriously i dont understand how many of you can be SO harsh to the other side, play the game how you want and have fun doing it. competitive players have fun playing competitively, casual players have fun playing matches with their friends w/o anything on the line.

Stop being ridiculous everyone.

the fact that somebody doesn't bother learning how to l cancel doesn't make them a bad human being, just like the fact that soembody wavedashes doesn't make them a bad human being.

basically...

CANT WE ALL JUST GET ALONG?!

Why can't we be friends?

Why can't we be friends?

Why can't we be friends?

I dunno, I got better at smash. I care less about wavedashing because I proved myself at a tournament recently and realized that a lot of the time, the simple things at the right time are what sepperate a good player, from a crappy player. And with low tiers even to the extent of pichu and roy I can now destroy people with bad mindgames and lousy DI (most people) who show up at the montreal bi-weeklies.

Also, cancelling lag from aerials is in brawl. That's one I really was hoping for and it's back. Wavedashing can stay in melee I DONT CARE. NOT AT -ALL- anymore. Ill just find a new way to get you!

Anyway, I don't think there's any reason for anyone to fight over this. Play to win, or don't. Just try to enjoy yourself and for the love of god don't whine about every little thing.

Wow, what a revelation Dylan. I look forward to playing you on Wi-Fi.

needs moar hatred.

K then...

CURSE YOU GIMPY!!!

You forgot our Money Match. That additional 1 dollar was going to feed my etheopian brothers for a month. Curse your phear of MetaKnight.

 

[Gimpyfish62]

and curse you for double posting!

nah i wont warn you, i'll just merge them and we'll pretend it never happened

 

[Elusive Taco]

needs moar hatred.

Delicious Drama.

Also: There is no God given genetical ability that seperates the "pro" from the "casual". You're not neccecarily(?) more intelligent or an "übermensch", to quote Mr.Adolf(who by the way was extremely cheap and wavedashed all across France)
It merely comes down to time spent playing and focusing on the game, goes for anything.

Also, i dare say there are quite a larger amount of "casual", and a vastly overwhelming number of "stupid" in the world as opposed to the alternative. The percentage of elitists in both parties is quite even, i assure you.

 

[Eternal phoenix Fire]

and curse you for double posting!

nah i wont warn you, i'll just merge them and we'll pretend it never happened

Yes.... It never happened.

:flame:

 

[Tagxy]

Part of the complaint against the competitive side are those who complain about how stupid brawl will be because it will have a few different techniques and in general be different. Of course these people can join the casuals that think theyll somehow be better for the same reasons. I see brawl as a new opportunity to pick up my game and smash competitively with the same effort that others put in before.

 

[xianfeng]

If the game wasn't made to be played with items on they wouldn't be in the game, and Zero Suit Samus wouldn't unlockable through an item. Tourney***s suck and will never get to use Zero Suit Samus ever and will only make piss boring stages out of create a stage (assuming they don't deem this as "cheap")

Well the way I see it we have a new game to play here and if you wanna win youll do what you can to be the best, and if you just wanna relax and play you'll have to accept that people with more determination will beat you. But that doesn't make your style of play wrong.

Also off the bat I think we should have the items on but I pray to god the boxes dont blow up.

It's the guy from /v/ that stole his piano music from Kingdom Hearts and calls everyone who plays with items on scrubs because he's a little ***** and is going to boycott brawl because the glitch known as wavedashing was removed. LOOK!

 

[NES n00b]

If the game wasn't made to be played with items off they wouldn't be in the game, and Zero Suit Samus wouldn't unlockable through an item. Tourney***s suck and will never get to use Zero Suit Samus ever and will only make piss boring stages out of create a stage (assuming they don't deem this as "cheap")


It's the guy from /v/ that stole his piano music from Kingdom Hearts and calls everyone who plays with items on scrubs because he's a little ***** and is going to boycott brawl because the glitch known as wavedashing was removed. LOOK!

OMG, you cannot not be serious. Tell me this guy isn't serious. Now I remember why people are pissed. Who says the game was meant to play with wo without items? If it was meant to be one way or another, there would be no on and off switch but guess what, there is.

Second, since when do you get to make such arbitrary dsecisions like things being "boring." You can say that we will make boring stages but that we cannot say anything about how much Brawl might be "boring." Hypocritcial stuff with inflammatory rhetoric to boot.

Third, we never consider anything "cheap" (noted exception is wobbling but I hope others stop complaining about how cheap that is) and it is mostly the scrubs (casuals that complain about competitive play, there is a better definition but screw it) that complain about cheap and stuff like that (wavedashing, lcanceling, etc).

Fourth, Dylan has changed and I don't see why you have to go and do that. Are you seriously that much of a troll?

Last, look at your first sentence. Double negative so you are saying that if items were not meant to be in the game, they wouldn't be in which makes no sense. <_<

 

[VA]

I think we competitive players just need to learn to quit whining about Brawl not being good enough for us. I don't care that wdashing is out. However I do rely on it with my 1337xorz samus in Melee. I'm the best Samus in the UK so ofc I have some kind of viewpoint on pro techniques. So what if Brawl requires a different style of play, probably much less technical, the community is going to be massive. Dylan_Tnga is right, Wdash can stay in Melee, no one should care, those that do are imo narrow minded.

I have no problem with casual players, as long as they accept the competitive scene for what it is (no items etc). When we start Brawl, everyone will be at the same standard, no more learning my Samus tips off HugS, I can do it myself. The Pro's will have the advantage of mindgames etc. So bring on a whole new style of smash with an even bigger community I say. (btw go here http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=123236 to see how **** uk smash community has been, I know you all want to.)

 

[xianfeng]

Doubt it. If he got a page of ED that he must still be the same, I doubt he's changed, watch soon he'll come on get ticked off at what I said and call me a scrub.

 

[tirkaro]

Doubt it. If he got a page of ED that he must still be the same, I doubt he's changed, watch soon he'll come on get ticked off at what I said and call me a scrub.

what the f*ck is wrong with you, xianfeng? all you're doing is perfectly fitting the much-hated stereotype of a casual elitist who's obviously been on 4chan too much.

If the game wasn't made to be played with items on they wouldn't be in the game, and Zero Suit Samus wouldn't unlockable through an item. Tourney***s suck and will never get to use Zero Suit Samus ever and will only make piss boring stages out of create a stage (assuming they don't deem this as "cheap")

smash is a heavily customizable game. there is no "real" way to play it. as long as we're playing it at all, we're playing it the way it was meant to be, the end. That means, if you're playing with no items, final destination, GUESS WHAT!? you are not "disgracing" nintendo by any means. you're just playing a fighting game on a competitive level. Casualf*gs have thier own way of playing, while torneygoers have thier own method of playing. WHY CANT YOU BE HAPPY WITH THAT!? if you dont like the way smash is played at tourneys, DONT PLAY AT TOURNEYS!!! HOW THE HELL IS THAT TOO MUCH TO COMPREHEND!?!?!? if you're a casual player, whether wavedashing was in or not shouldn't even matter to you.
and I'm unsure if you can comprehend this, but in case you didn't notice, torneyplayers ARE considering final smashes, since it's a reletively balanced item so far. heck, we dont even know if it is an item. but then, how would you know? it seems I've lost you to 4chan now.

It's the guy from /v/ that stole his piano music from Kingdom Hearts and calls everyone who plays with items on scrubs because he's a little ***** and is going to boycott brawl because the glitch known as wavedashing was removed. LOOK!

Its a guy who's obviously just 'typing dylan because of what he read on 4chan/encyclopedia dramatica, and obviously has no idea that dylan has changed his opinions over the past months! LOOK!

oh, and one other thing:
the people at encyclopedia dramatica are a bunch of IDIOTS, F*CKTARDS, AND....WELL.... IDIOTS! if you actually believe in what they say, then you are a complete moron, and whatever respect I had for you has now been lost. good day.

 

[xianfeng]

lulz. It's funny, and they got two pedos (Douglas L Payne Jr and Chris Forcand) so they are funny people and good people, but mainly funny.

Anyway even Sakurai wants people to try out all the different options, I'm pretty sure he made this game for the casual fans (or as Dylan says Scrubs) not the tourney***s who ban everything because it's unfair and only use cheap characters (Fox, Marth and Sheik).

 

[VA]

Melee wasn't designed with Pro players in mind. A pro scene will evolve from Brawl, you'll just have to sit there and cry while people get good. Clearly this game will have hidden depths, smash always has. Join the community or sit down and shut up. For the most part pros just want to play other pros, and if casual players join the scene it's no harm done, which will happen with brawls release. I don't even know why people are arguing.

 

[NES n00b]

Doubt it. If he got a page of ED that he must still be the same, I doubt he's changed, watch soon he'll come on get ticked off at what I said and call me a scrub.

Stop trying to troll. If you go through life without a elitist attitude, you will go farther. Also, please learn about the thing (i.e. the competative scene and their "bad" attitudes) that you are going to argue about so fervently. Tikaro already said most of what I was going to say. I also have to say that competitive people have been talking about making stages so they don't consider it "cheap" and they have also talked about making some stages for fun. So yeah. . . . . . . . .

What is with you and bringing 4chan into this like their references mean something? These are the same people who made Enyclopedia Dramatica. If you believe any of that stuff that they have there (some of the articles have a basis for being made but it is definitely not accurate), then read the Wii section so you can see what they say about you for buying a single product. That is just flame bait stuff for the "lulz" or for the "internet justice" or whatever the heck they are thinking with their stuff.

Edit: OMFG, you are a 4chan elitist. I shouldn't even try but here it goes. LOLz I use Link because he is teh cheapZ. Ohh wait, that doesn't fit the description of cheap character does it? There is lots of stages not banned, there is like 6 neutral and about 14 total (can't remember). Tournies are about testing skill not about having fun stage hazards. I can't see how hard it is to understand. People do not allow random things in sports so why should they in something that is competitive too?

 

[Eggm]

How did this battle start in the first place? Did competitive players leave a tournament go to casuals house and start forcing that player and his friends to play FD no items? Casuals would never be forced to play by the rules unless they went to a competitive tournament... and in that case they should expect it as they went to a competitive tournament. I don't see how this argument even got started at all its dumb, nice post gimpy. Lets all just be glad melee is so adaptable that it can cater to both players just fine, and hope that brawl is the same way.

 

[CHAOSDRAGON88]

I could care less about the exclusion of advanced techs in smash because we will always use what makes us good and allowed us to win. Advance techs never made us good, it was our brain and our ability to adapt to new scenarios. No one wants to lose, so we learn and practice and mimic the techniques of our peers so that we can be victorious in combat. There is no hate on the side of competitive players at all because we were them (Casuals) and then we evolved into superfighters.

 

[thesage]

I could care less about the exclusion of advanced techs in smash because we will always use what makes us good and allowed us to win. Advance techs never made us good, it was our brain and our ability to adapt to new scenarios.

Agreed, all adv techs do is make the game deeper, more exciting, and they give you more options, otherwise *thinks of smash64* *shudders*. It had l-cancelling but I mean there is no possible competitive scene in that game. It's like 8 people can 5 stock everybody else in the world.

No one wants to lose, so we learn and practice and mimic the techniques of our peers so that we can be victorious in combat. There is no hate on the side of competitive players at all because we were them (Casuals)

Agreed.

then we evolved into superfighters.

WTF?

 

[BentoBox]

How did this battle start in the first place?

When competitive smashers started giving a crap about whatever stupid stuff casuals had to say, which was their mistake. Just how many "scrubs" came along to express their views on Wavedashing only to get flamed like there's no tomorrow? Neither side can ever seem to let it go.

 

[AlphaZealot]

Also: There is no God given genetical ability that seperates the "pro" from the "casual". You're not neccecarily(?) more intelligent or an "übermensch", to quote Mr.Adolf(who by the way was extremely cheap and wavedashed all across France)
It merely comes down to time spent playing and focusing on the game, goes for anything.

I disagree with this statement. Some people have a natural talent to be good at video games, just like they would any other medium, from sports to school, some people are just born with it and other people have to work at it.

Cases in point: Fatality in PC gaming. Azen for Smash/Stepmania/Mario Kart/Pokemon Puzzle league/anything he touches. The Orge twins in Halo 1 and 2. Ken in Smash.

If you want more proof, take the amount of time Ken put in the game to get to number 1 and compare it to Mew2King. Mew2King took the "what I don't have in talent I can make up in with practice" approach, meanwhile Ken was just mad talented.

 

[Witchking_of_Angmar]

Also; Godwin's Law.

 

[Sandwich]

If you want more proof, take the amount of time Ken put in the game to get to number 1 and compare it to Mew2King. Mew2King took the "what I don't have in talent I can make up in with practice" approach, meanwhile Ken was just mad talented.

QFT.
Some people take to some things better than others.

 

[element_of_fire]

When competitive smashers started giving a crap about whatever stupid stuff casuals had to say, which was their mistake. Just how many "scrubs" came along to express their views on Wavedashing only to get flamed like there's no tomorrow? Neither side can ever seem to let it go.

it started long before that....

its called, 'tiers'