CASUAL ELITISTS vs COMPETITIVE ELITISTS!!!!

[Witchking_of_Angmar]

it started long before that....

its called, 'tiers'

It started before that..... it's called "scrubs."

 

[Tony_]

lol seriously i dont understand how many of you can be SO harsh to the other side, play the game how you want and have fun doing it. competitive players have fun playing competitively, casual players have fun playing matches with their friends w/o anything on the line.

Stop being ridiculous everyone.

the fact that somebody doesn't bother learning how to l cancel doesn't make them a bad human being, just like the fact that soembody wavedashes doesn't make them a bad human being.

basically...

CANT WE ALL JUST GET ALONG?!

Bolded part is for emphasis.

Unfortunately gimpy, Tourney players will only play if something is on the line, be it money or something else, and these kinds of people, I am sorry to say, can ruin smash at times for the majority of us.

 

[vesperview]

Wow, I just hate that because this thread is made by a moderator it is left open for 11 pages, if someone else had made it, one of the mods would come and say:

This doesn't belong here *closes*

Seriously what the hell does this thread have to do with Brawl? No one has even played the game competitively to even have an opinion on the matter.

 

[Witchking_of_Angmar]

Wow, I just hate that because this thread is made by a moderator it is left open for 11 pages, if someone else had made it, one of the mods would come and say:



Seriously what the hell does this thread have to do with Brawl? No one has even played the game competitively to even have an opinion on the matter.

It has to do with Brawl because there are tons of noobs here whining about advanced techniques and glorifying in the fact that WD was taken out, and tons of people flaming them.

The Melee room has this problem occasionally, but not nearly as much as the Brawl rooms. No, the reason to close this is because it has devolved into what Gimpyfish has asked us not to do; a fight between competitive and casual.

Unfortunately gimpy, Tourney players will only play if something is on the line, be it money or something else, and these kinds of people, I am sorry to say, can ruin smash at times for the majority of us.

Please, please don't make stuff up about us. You're acting like every match we play is a tourney or money match. Don't be ignorant.

 

[vesperview]

It has to do with Brawl because there are tons of noobs here whining about advanced techniques and glorifying in the fact that WD was taken out, and tons of people flaming them.

The Melee room has this problem occasionally, but not nearly as much as the Brawl rooms. No, the reason to close this is because it has devolved into what Gimpyfish has asked us not to do; a fight between competitive and casual.

He also said that about tier lists, yet he has a closed thread telling you not to do it, this should be like that too, seriously anyone arguing about the gameplay and competitive aspects of a game they haven't played is an idiot.

 

[N1c2k3]

Wrong. Gimpy and I have both officially played this game competatively, and won money.

More to come later, I have to leave for school right now, but to summarize what I'm going to say later - Xienfang and that other guy whose name is in all caps and has MK as his pic like everyone else: You're idiots. Like I said, I'll expound later.

Sorry for the hatred, but it's really just too irking to let go. I'll calm down and present my views logically when I get back...

 

[Tony_]

Please, please don't make stuff up about us. You're acting like every match we play is a tourney or money match. Don't be ignorant.

Those are the only matches I've seen tourney players play, and I should have said certain tourney players, not all as a whole.

 

[Witchking_of_Angmar]

Those are the only matches I've seen tourney players play, and I should have said certain tourney players, not all as a whole.

WEll, then you haven't seen a lot of competitive matches. SEriously, half the vids on youtube are friendlies.

 

[vesperview]

Wrong. Gimpy and I have both officially played this game competatively, and won money.

I forgot when you and Gimpy where the entire SWF population...[/sarcasm]

 

[TheBuzzSaw]

I saw it in this thread among many other threads. I am baffled as to why certain gamers preach the unwritten law that games are to be played as the creators intended. That is hypocrisy. I guarantee that close analysis of any gamer in any game will reveal techniques that help the player win that the creator never intended. We all play our own style. I refuse to limit myself to the constraints of "intended gameplay".

Sometimes when I play my wife, she becomes frustrated and quits. She will say, "I don't like playing you. You're too good." Honestly, that is 1000x more effective than had she said things like, "You are cheap. You play dirty. That's not how the game was meant to be played." So, to compensate, I start playing characters I am no good at (Ice Climbers are currently my worst). Even though I am choosing characters I do not normally choose, I am at least allowing myself to play my best with what I am given. I do not hold back when playing as Ice Climbers, but my wife beats me now and again (she recently learned L-canceling and wavedashing).

I am OK with players stating their opinions on wavedashing. I am never against that. I only become involved when the opinion includes ban declarations and how the competitive community should not be able to use it ever. If you do not like wavedashing, do not use it. The competitive community likes playing with no items, but I never see them start threads discussing how the casual community should stop using items because "we said so". We just say we don't like 'em and move on! In order for both sides to get along, both sides need to play by some rules.

CASUAL SMASHERS: Stop telling people how to play the game. Stop defining "fun" for other people. Stop preaching about creators' intent. Just play the game how you want to. If you have an opinion on how the game "should" be played, a competitive smash forum is not the best place for it.

COMPETITIVE SMASHERS: Stop telling people how to play the game. It is OK for players to dislike advanced techniques. Stop throwing around terms like "noob", "scrub", etc. There are players out there who know advanced techniques yet oppose them.

 

[Witchking_of_Angmar]

Stop throwing around terms like "noob", "scrub", etc. There are players out there who know advanced techniques yet oppose them.

And people that oppose advanced techniques for the simple reason that they are such are scrubs, because they limit themselves to their own petty rules of "fairness."

The ideal casual player is one that is good at the game, knows of advanced techniques but does not use them, plays to win, and accepts competitive players and understands them, yet does not wish to be like them. You never find those casuals.

 

[DraginHikari]

There a simple saying a teacher once told me which kinda of wrap up the elitest views on both the casual and competitve side " You have no right to debate if you cannot at least understand your oppenent's viewpoint." Think that wraps it up quite nicely.

As far as it goes, I am a casual player more so then anything due to the fact I live in the middle of nowhere and tournments really don't show up around here. Hell, I didn't even know what Wavedashing was till recently. Considering I main was primarily Bowser I would have been decimated in most tournement.

Alot of time Casual hostility towards competitve players comes in the form of pure arrogance you do find with some better players. Like anything of competitve nature, people can develop inflated Egos without really intending to do so. Not saying at all that anyone here is but the thought tends to annoy people who don't really take the time or the necessary effort or even in reality don't know the same tricks as competitive players.

The competitive can do the same thing towards the casual particular in the comments referring to Casual as N00bs, Newb, or other things of that manner. As a result stereotypes develop and people merely assume everyone is grouped into these: N00b, elitist, or casual groups. Really I shrug off alot of it with it and take it for what it is, but others don't seem to be able to take it quite so simply from what I can tell.

 

[Witchking_of_Angmar]

There a simple saying a teacher once told me which kinda of wrap up the elitest views on both the casual and competitve side " You have no right to debate if you cannot at least understand your oppenent's viewpoint." Think that wraps it up quite nicely.

As far as it goes, I am a casual player more so then anything due to the fact I live in the middle of nowhere and tournments really don't show up around here. Hell, I didn't even know what Wavedashing was till recently. Considering I main was primarily Bowser I would have been decimated in most tournement.

Alot of time Casual hostility towards competitve players comes in the form of pure arrogance you do find with some better players. Like anything of competitve nature, people can develop inflated Egos without really intending to do so. Not saying at all that anyone here is but the thought tends to annoy people who don't really take the time or the necessary effort or even in reality don't know the same tricks as competitive players.

The competitive can do the same thing towards the casual particular in the comments referring to Casual as N00bs, Newb, or other things of that manner. As a result stereotypes develop and people merely assume everyone is grouped into these: N00b, elitist, or casual groups. Really I shrug off alot of it with it and take it for what it is, but others don't seem to be able to take it quite so simply from what I can tell.

Generally, the newbs are the ones with inflated egos. It goes like this:

A noob (not casual player) or scrub opens an anti competitive, anti pro, or anti advanced techniques thread. The offended people (competitive players) proceed to flame, and amidst all this flaming and confusion, casuals are caught up and wrongly insulted. Insults fly everywhere, everyone's reputation suffers, everyone gets mad.

Everyone is partially to blame, but mostly it is the fault of the scrub that identifies himself with casuals and opened such a thread. Scrubs exist only in casual players, although noobs can be competitive or casual.

 

[DraginHikari]

Generally, the newbs are the ones with inflated egos. It goes like this:

A noob (not casual player) or scrub opens an anti competitive, anti pro, or anti advanced techniques thread. The offended people (competitive players) proceed to flame, and amidst all this flaming and confusion, casuals are caught up and wrongly insulted. Insults fly everywhere, everyone's reputation suffers, everyone gets mad.

Everyone is partially to blame, but mostly it is the fault of the scrub that identifies himself with casuals and opened such a thread. Scrubs exist only in casual players, although noobs can be competitive or casual.

That is a point that skipped my mind when I posted I'll say that. The funniest thing about it is that mostly that Casual usually refers to something calmer then the Competitveness which is why I find some topics rather odd at that.

 

[element_of_fire]

there should be a seperate board for 'smash ethics' and all the scrubs can do their *****ing there

 

[Witchking_of_Angmar]

there should be a seperate board for 'smash ethics' and all the scrubs can do their *****ing there

Except that a "smash ethics" forum would not do much good. Scrub posts belong in a spam forum where post count is disabled.

 

[messiahfreak2000]

The ideal casual player is one that is good at the game, knows of advanced techniques but does not use them, plays to win, and accepts competitive players and understands them, yet does not wish to be like them. You never find those casuals.

i actually know a casual like that, my brother. he plays exactly like how you describe. thats one . i'd include myself but i'm trying to learn the advanced techs.

 

[Paranoid_Android]

I think it's obvious that the competitive community, while elitist *******s, recognize that the game can be played casually and that it's fun for the majority of players. The problem is elitist casual players who demand that their way of playing is the only one possible: This refers to people who wish there were no item switch, no random stage select switch, and no tricks like L canceling to add skill to the game that may not be necessary for a casual match. These players want LESS options in a game, where it is obvious that MORE options is ALWAYS better, no matter how stupid (or ****ing awesome) they are.

 

[Witchking_of_Angmar]

I think it's obvious that the competitive community, while pretty nice guys, recognize that the game can be played casually and that it's fun for the majority of players. The problem is elitist casual players who demand that their way of playing is the only one possible: This refers to people who wish there were no item switch, no random stage select switch, and no tricks like L canceling to add skill to the game that may not be necessary for a casual match. These players want LESS options in a game, where it is obvious that MORE options is ALWAYS better, no matter how stupid (or ****ing awesome) they are.

Fixed.

@ messiahfreak: The fact that there's smashers (or gamers in general) like that out there makes me one happy guy. Props to you and your brother.

 

[Smooth Criminal]

I saw it in this thread among many other threads. I am baffled as to why certain gamers preach the unwritten law that games are to be played as the creators intended. That is hypocrisy. I guarantee that close analysis of any gamer in any game will reveal techniques that help the player win that the creator never intended. We all play our own style. I refuse to limit myself to the constraints of "intended gameplay".

Sometimes when I play my wife, she becomes frustrated and quits. She will say, "I don't like playing you. You're too good." Honestly, that is 1000x more effective than had she said things like, "You are cheap. You play dirty. That's not how the game was meant to be played." So, to compensate, I start playing characters I am no good at (Ice Climbers are currently my worst). Even though I am choosing characters I do not normally choose, I am at least allowing myself to play my best with what I am given. I do not hold back when playing as Ice Climbers, but my wife beats me now and again (she recently learned L-canceling and wavedashing).

I am OK with players stating their opinions on wavedashing. I am never against that. I only become involved when the opinion includes ban declarations and how the competitive community should not be able to use it ever. If you do not like wavedashing, do not use it. The competitive community likes playing with no items, but I never see them start threads discussing how the casual community should stop using items because "we said so". We just say we don't like 'em and move on! In order for both sides to get along, both sides need to play by some rules.

CASUAL SMASHERS: Stop telling people how to play the game. Stop defining "fun" for other people. Stop preaching about creators' intent. Just play the game how you want to. If you have an opinion on how the game "should" be played, a competitive smash forum is not the best place for it.

COMPETITIVE SMASHERS: Stop telling people how to play the game. It is OK for players to dislike advanced techniques. Stop throwing around terms like "noob", "scrub", etc. There are players out there who know advanced techniques yet oppose them.

Ding!

This post (and just about every other thing that Buzz has said) is very true. Video games are meant to be played, plain and simple. Neither side should dictate what the other should be doing; if they wanna play a certain way, that's fine. That's good and well.

Smooth Criminal

 

[Prime Time]

what if you are god tier like me? sweet

 

[Tagxy]

Unfortunately gimpy, Tourney players will only play if something is on the line, be it money or something else, and these kinds of people, I am sorry to say, can ruin smash at times for the majority of us.

That's definitely not true of the majority. If anything the casuals who constantly give johns and ruin the game for themselves and others can only blame themselves.

pretty sure he made this game for the casual fans (or as Dylan says Scrubs)

No, I'm pretty sure he didn't make it for 'scrubs' like yourselves either. If that were the case there would be one character, one stage and one button to attack since anything that requires effort gives you an excuse to lose. Then again, maybe he is designing it with you in mind, after all what would you do if you didn't have any johns to fall back on?

If I had to guess Id say he made the game for everyone.

 

[Gimpyfish62]

he made the game to be fun and to have people buy it, we are all buying it, we are all having fun

you have your fun i'll have mine, as long as my way to have fun in the game isn't shoving the disk down your throat and choking you to death or something like that why bother telling me how to play? i'm not telling you how to play, you have fun, i have fun, we all have fun, nobody gets hurt, nobody gets mad.

that's all i'm saying.

i dont even know what you guys are arguing about up there, just read my post, agree, and move on.

 

[element_of_fire]

gimpy, i've said that to so many people.... somepeople actually take offense to, 'play how you want'.... some of them actually think we're talking down to them by saying that..... its rediculous....

 

[Witchking_of_Angmar]

Casuals =/= scrubs.

Casuals are often called noobs, but if you ever see someone using the terms "casual" and "scrub" synonymously, you should beat the living **** out of them (no you shouldn't, I just want to explain how wrong it is). Scrubs are anti-competitive, people that call things "cheap," john like crazy, and limit themselves to their little "rules" or "codes of honor," things that are "fair."

Casuals can be scrubs, but don't have to be.

Scrubs go under the category "casual gamer." Often they try to be competitive, but don't like being "cheap" and turn against competitive gamers.

Noobs can even be competitive gamers that view the game like pros, but are merely bad at the game (I am a noob because I suck, not because I am casual or a scrub).

Casuals=/=scrubs=/=noobs.

Be careful when using those terms interchangeably.

 

[Gimpyfish62]

^^
what a scrubby casual noob this guy is.

 

[Witchking_of_Angmar]

^^
what a scrubby casual noob this guy is.

What an anti-scrubbishly competitive pro you are.

 

[Gimpyfish62]

HEY SHUT UP.

err...

>_>;

 

[Drik Khaail]

give this man a cookie. and a high five. I think this thread should be stickied :D

 

[Witchking_of_Angmar]

HEY SHUT UP.

err...

>_>;

I HAVE A RIGHT TO SPEAK.

what?

 

[CHAOSDRAGON88]

This reminds me of the speech from Team America. I cant quote it with out(Sinning) getting hit with the ban hammer. It's at the end of the movie.

 

[Tagxy]

Let's be honest here though. Scrubs don't have a "code of honor" or "sense of fairness". 99.9% of them are competitive wannabees who don't to put the effort in to play well. I remember being that way when I first found out about the competitive scene and how my main character, pika, was a low tier character and that there were all these techniques that I didn't want to take the time to learn when I already considered myself to be really good (picked up and finished melee well before the competitive scene took off, and I was a lot better than everyone around me so there was no motive to keep playing or do better).

As I said before, these people are exactly like the people complaining about Brawl. Rather than adapt to something new, they'll come up with johns about "lack of advanced techniques" (for those complaining about brawl) or "something being cheap" (for existing scrubs).

 

[Witchking_of_Angmar]

Let's be honest here though. Scrubs don't have a "code of honor" or "sense of fairness". 99.9% of them are competitive wannabees who don't to put the effort in to play well. I remember being that way when I first found out about the competitive scene and how my main character, pika, was a low tier character and that there were all these techniques that I didn't want to take the time to learn when I already considered myself to be really good (picked up and finished melee well before the competitive scene took off, and I was a lot better than everyone around me so there was no motive to keep playing or do better).

As I said before, these people are exactly like the people complaining about Brawl. Rather than adapt to something new, they'll come up with johns about "lack of advanced techniques" (for those complaining about brawl) or "something being cheap" (for existing scrubs).

Exactly. Something "being cheap" is something that goes outside their "code of honor." Their code of honor changes to suit the scrub best.

 

[Tagxy]

Almost forgot:

[obligitory post in every thread asking gimpy for an update]

 

[Eternal phoenix Fire]

lulz. It's funny, and they got two pedos (Douglas L Payne Jr and Chris Forcand) so they are funny people and good people, but mainly funny.

Anyway even Sakurai wants people to try out all the different options, I'm pretty sure he made this game for the casual fans (or as Dylan says Scrubs) not the tourney***s who ban everything because it's unfair and only use cheap characters (Fox, Marth and Sheik).

F*ck you and F*ck 4chan.

First off, despite anything you say, there is no way in hell that i'm going to acknowledge a pedofile as a good person. Using humor is a way for a child to feel less intimidated of their presense.

Secondly, the encyclopedia dramatica opinions of the Smash Bros. tournament system is nothing but assumptions based on a majority of tournament play.

I know that each side of the players shouldn't be judging eachother or dictating the way we play, but there are serveral examples that uninformed people follow, which inevitably cause them to make assumptions on tournament play without even trying to play in tournaments themselves.

And lastly, the options. Sakurai designed Smash Bros in general to have a plethora of options to play the game with, whether it be without items, alot of items, lightning melee, or slow melee. If this feature didn't exist, the smash bros franchise would have died a long time ago. So tell me, how would the removal of advanced playing tactics benifit any community? Do you feel forced to use them? The removal of the advanced tactics wouldn't enhance the game engine, but you would still be able to seperate the professional player from the casual, which in theory, is the main reason most casual players with advanced playing tactics didn't exist.

A game can be played from both sides of the spectrum, your inability to accept that is asinine. tell me, have you ever been to a tournament before? Or are you just talking sh*t like the rest of your failure chan representatives?

 

[yoshi_fan]

The thing is...

Advanced tactics are bugs.

And these bugs destroy the "base" game...

Let's for example, get Mario strikers. If there was a bug where you can shot behind the keeper, yeah is cheap, but it takes a LOT of skill to do it (and it ocurred a lot of times to me), but is a BUG who destroys the metagame. I'm referring to boo's and toad's hablity to jump over the keeper. What have ocurred to the online of amrio strikers because of these tactics/bugs/omgwhateverpotatoessheik: it's sucks for people who wants to playthe game normal way, and you only sees teams with a lot of toads and boos. (Note: I use this bug in online tournaments and local tournaments, but i know it destroys the game)

The same ocurred with melee.

Anyway, i'm neutral. I think there must be some tactics, some must be changes, and some must be quited, like now.

 

[Gimpyfish62]

you aren't neutral if you'd bother coming here to tell us advanced tactics are bugs and destroy the game lol

 

[person701]

lol seriously i dont understand how many of you can be SO harsh to the other side, play the game how you want and have fun doing it. competitive players have fun playing competitively, casual players have fun playing matches with their friends w/o anything on the line.

Stop being ridiculous everyone.

the fact that somebody doesn't bother learning how to l cancel doesn't make them a bad human being, just like the fact that soembody wavedashes doesn't make them a bad human being.

basically...

CANT WE ALL JUST GET ALONG?!

I'm not reading this whole topic so I'll just answer the stuff in bold.

Yes, I can.

 

[Witchking_of_Angmar]

The thing is...

Advanced tactics are bugs.

And these bugs destroy the "base" game...

Let's for example, get Mario strikers. If there was a bug where you can shot behind the keeper, yeah is cheap, but it takes a LOT of skill to do it (and it ocurred a lot of times to me), but is a BUG who destroys the metagame. I'm referring to boo's and toad's hablity to jump over the keeper. What have ocurred to the online of amrio strikers because of these tactics/bugs/omgwhateverpotatoessheik: it's sucks for people who wants to playthe game normal way, and you only sees teams with a lot of toads and boos. (Note: I use this bug in online tournaments and local tournaments, but i know it destroys the game)

The same ocurred with melee.

Anyway, i'm neutral. I think there must be some tactics, some must be changes, and some must be quited, like now.

That's a horrible example because that's not a bug. In fact, it's pretty likely that the developers even noticed that. Most advanced techniques are not bugs, and instead of "destroying" the metagame, they contribute to it.

 

[AlphaZealot]

I think the other problem is that the players who are good at the game reside almost singularly in the competitive community. Competitive players can play in a casual setting (and by a casual persons rules) and will still come out on top and usually in dominant fassion. A casual though, will only come out on top against other casual players. This fact is what causes a lot of problems because some peoples ego's get hurt when they learn there are others better than them. If you want to argue otherwise, bring up an example and include names, in the meantime as evidence I submit the bottom 10% of placements at just about every tournament ever held through SWF.