Important Carefully Ask PPMD about the Tiara Guy

[Fortress | Sveet]

if you're not getting hit, you could try dtilting right back and clanking then hoping you have the faster reaction time (read: port advantage) and do something with that

 

[ArcNatural]

is this just one of those bad situations where it's legitimately hard to get out?

Yes. Marth isn't fast enough to realistically escape another Marth's shield pressure once your already cornered. It's a guessing game but they definitely have the advantage, especially if they are still able to CC. If your really good at wavelanding I would probably just wavedash regrab the ledge and work from there.

 

[ComboTurtle]

Comboturtle plays PAL though so if they grab it's not as bad as in NTSC.

i was also stating a case where i was playing vs a bad sheik and more or less ****ing around. The main point i was making is that if you whiff you mayswell just incase

 

[sauc3]

I was watching pkmvodka play I.B. in marth ditto's a while back and saw pkm do a fthrow to dair to regrab (at low percents) multiple times throughout their matches, is this a legitimate tactic or just gimmick that works with lol-DI. I'm guessing his other options are better, but it was ... intriguing to say the least. I guess my question is, is it worth learning?

 

[AIDS]

I was watching pkmvodka play I.B. in marth ditto's a while back and saw pkm do a fthrow to dair to regrab (at low percents) multiple times throughout their matches, is this a legitimate tactic or just gimmick that works with lol-DI. I'm guessing his other options are better, but it was ... intriguing to say the least. I guess my question is, is it worth learning?

I am un sure if it actually is a combo but assuming it is:
IMO Marth is a combo machine who also is good at getting low % kills. I think you will have better options that are easier. So to answer your question I guess it just depends on if you want the cool points.

 

[ChivalRuse]

Marth's fthrow should never combo into anything against Marth (above like 10%) if you DI down and away. You'll be able to tech before he can combo you. Needless to say, you risk getting tech chased.

 

[Tee ay eye]

i wish marth's ledge wd was as good as the other top tiers'

 

[ChivalRuse]

I feel like ledgehop -> airdodge is underused nowadays. It's pretty good.

 

[Tee ay eye]

what do you do vs falcos that like to space ftilts on your shield and just run around in front of you for pressure? just fair out?

 

[ChivalRuse]

I don't play Falcos as good as Forward - but fair is probably the best option if you're facing the Falco. If not, wavedash away out of shield.

 

[KAOSTAR]

Retreating fair oos should work pretty well.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

And if he is out of range, just wd backwards OoS and respace

 

[Tee ay eye]

im not even talking about forward

which is the frustrating part

also sean hasnt been playing falco much lately

 

[ChivalRuse]

Forward is known for ftilting shields with Falco though.

 

[Tee ay eye]

yeahhhhhh true

 

[Likeness101]

So uh I am new to marth. Before I played marth I used fox which has lead to me picking a number of bad habits. Anyways, the main thing I want to ask is:
What is the first thing I should practice with marth?

I can L-Cancel and Wavedash with him solidly right now I am trying to get WDing OoS with him.

 

[ChivalRuse]

So uh I am new to marth. Before I played marth I used fox which has lead to me picking a number of bad habits. Anyways, the main thing I want to ask is:
What is the first thing I should practice with marth?

I can L-Cancel and Wavedash with him solidly right now I am trying to get WDing OoS with him.

Yea. Good start. Well, practice all the advanced techniques until you can basically glide around the stage at will. Then just play the best people you can find. If you have any specific questions, feel free to ask away.

 

[Likeness101]

Yea. Good start. Well, practice all the advanced techniques until you can basically glide around the stage at will. Then just play the best people you can find. If you have any specific questions, feel free to ask away.

I don't have access to anyone better than me so that is the main problem. However my friend does play sheik and I have some questions:

Throws
Typically at low %s I will do a uthrow to utilt and try to follow up on that if not then I leave him alone

Att higher %s I tend to fthrow and dthrow and try to tech chase or follow up with a fsmash or something if he DI'd wrong.

Are there any better options?

Killing
I have a really big problem killing people. If I don't edgeguard the person successfully then they typically live higher than 130%. I am very good at getting tippers as yet so I don't rely on them.
Essentially, my question is how else can I kill with marth?


All I can really think of that I usually do are utilt and fsmash not including edgeguarding.

I'll probably ask more questions when I think of them

 

[KAOSTAR]

Forward is known for ftilting shields with Falco though.

Angle your shield as far out as possible and lessen the pressure on R or L.

Switching to a lighter shield should push you away, and angling it gives you the optimal contact point to transfer his attack into backwards momentum.

Then go with Fair oos and WLD backwards and respace.

 

[ChivalRuse]

I don't have access to anyone better than me so that is the main problem. However my friend does play sheik and I have some questions:

Throws
Typically at low %s I will do a uthrow to utilt and try to follow up on that if not then I leave him alone

Att higher %s I tend to fthrow and dthrow and try to tech chase or follow up with a fsmash or something if he DI'd wrong.

Are there any better options?

Killing
I have a really big problem killing people. If I don't edgeguard the person successfully then they typically live higher than 130%. I am very good at getting tippers as yet so I don't rely on them.
Essentially, my question is how else can I kill with marth?

All I can really think of that I usually do are utilt and fsmash not including edgeguarding.

I'll probably ask more questions when I think of them

Concerning throws --

Utilt can follow from it, but depending on DI and %, Sheik might be able to jump before your utilt can get to her. If you're consistently able to uthrow utilt the Sheik, then follow up with more utilts as knockback and DI dictate and then keep juggling with uairs. If Sheik uses her jump to get away, it's actually a good thing. Follow her from below and keep her above you with uairs. Occasionally you'll be able to catch her with an fsmash when she's landing. Furthermore, some Sheiks will try to regain their feet by falling with an aerial. Whenever you suspect this of happening, just dash dance around the aerial and grab her.

In terms of which throws you should use, it depends, of course. If you grab Sheik with your back to the ledge, regardless of percent, usually dthrow is the best option. Uthrow at low percent if you're not confident in your gimping abilities or just for the mix-up. But at high percents, dthrow is standard. Get Sheik off the stage, take the ledge, wait for her to return to the stage with her laggy up-b and punish. Occasionally she'll be able to double jump back on and airdodge, but usually you can read it and punish accordingly. Fthrow and dthrow are good for techchasing too. Like you said, you can tech chase for regrabs and fsmashes, so ... yea, that's the right thing to do when she's at higher percents (such that uthrow won't combo into uair or fair).

Consistently scoring KO's at reasonable percents is no walk in the park. Um - yea, you certainly don't want to be relying on tippers. It would be good for you to learn the gimp setups and such. Take a couple hours and watch some of the Mew2King vs LOL Master series.

For non-gimp KO's, you're gonna get a lot from edgeguarding. Go for cheap kills. Non-tipped fsmashes, dtilts, charged shield breakers, bairs. Utilt is pretty great on floaties. You can set it up with the first hit of the side-b. Empty SH mindgames. Fsmash. Sometimes empty short hop next to a shield and then utilt will catch people jumping out of their shields. Sheik's recovery is fairly predictable. If you can get her off the stage, usually you can keep edgeguarding her until she just dies.

Random tip - a lot of Sheiks will try to roll behind you at high percents when they expect fsmash. Try and take advantage of this. Or if they're the spotdodge spamming type like Drephen, just wait for the spotdodge and tip them.

 

[Shinku]

dear cactuar

now im sure we all know your style where you just stand there, go crazy technical, ****, play awkward, stand there etc etc.

how did you come up with type of style, like its very good like say fighting falcons. ive been using that in melee and also in street fighter 4, doing nothing, play awkward, ****, and its soooooo gooood. even some other games i play competitively like marvel it works. most people just play super aggressive from the start except for maybe like maybe azen where you just start slow then build up speed gradually

point is, where did you come up with this style of play? with fox, marth, or whatever

 

[SwiftBass]

haha his style is DEF very unique and I have bitten off it quite a few times.

 

[Daniel_the_Seraph]

What is a JC grab and how do you do it?

 

[ArcNatural]

what do you do vs falcos that like to space ftilts on your shield and just run around in front of you for pressure? just fair out?

Quarter-circle smash DI forward -> grab.

 

[ChivalRuse]

What is a JC grab and how do you do it?

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=42749

 

[ComboTurtle]

is it actually possible to shield di far enough forward to get the grab?

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

duh

edit:

 

[ComboTurtle]

on a well spaced ftilt? I find it hard to time. Do you just try to smash di when they hit your shield? Can you ellaborate?

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

When they hit your shield there are frames of hitlag (look in the gif and watch sheik's animation, as soon as she hits the shield her animation stops for 4 frames). During the hitlag you smash DI forward and then grab.

btw if you look at the spacing in the gif, thats basically max range on sheik's ftilt

 

[ComboTurtle]

thanks ima have to practice this vs spacies? is it easy enough to do reliably?

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Depends on what you call easy. You have more than 1 frame leeway, so by my standards yes

 

[Tee ay eye]

i found what i'm trying to ask

how do you play against falcos that play like Dope?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kuy_yn8XCe0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dhJq7a5Cgu4

just even in the match vs m2k, his style seems to be working, but m2k just got like, one hit which led to death

----------------------
guesswork:

seems like vs the dope-style falco, you have to just catch them by surprise. it seems to be heavily based on robocop-pressure and spacing and reaction and making the move (grab, laser, ftilt, etc) after the opponent throws something out (shieldgrab, whiffed fairs, WD oos, dtilt i think)

on the last stock, you can see mew2king grabbing dope before the f-tilt comes out, catching dope by surprise. i'd imagine rolling and long-range moves like fsmash or ftilt working. seems like you just have to find when the falco will hit and get it in before them, but not so that they can react to you with some dumb bs

i picture doing a rising fair (with short hop OR full hop) working if the spacing is right too

(agree/disagree?)

 

[Kira-]

what do you do vs falcos that like to space ftilts on your shield and just run around in front of you for pressure? just fair out?

iono but when that happens to me i just wd backwards out of shield
or like if sheik is shield pressuring me with well spaced ftilts then i just wd backwards and start over

tai i think you're focusing too much on overall strategy and what beats what rather than simply trying to outplay your opponent. You're smart and good enough so that you can think of your own solutions to situations like the one you just describe above, you just need to focus your efforts on reading/predicting what they're going to do. For example, when you asked that question I just quoted, you instinctively thought of an answer already just by asking about it. But that solution will only work if you're quick enough to react to it (ie you're expecting an ftilt and you subconsciously prepare yourself to fair out of shield). If you don't know it's coming, then you won't act quickly enough, so even the "correct" answer won't hit because you didn't know they were going to ftilt. Bottom line, try to read better.

Honestly that's just a guess since I haven't seen you play recently but yeah I need to go back to straight up reading/outplaying people instead of finding the "best" thing to do against certain things so it came to mind. I still don't know how to beat Fox's bair though. I'm just gonna stay back from it until I can predict their jump or next move.

duh

edit:

O_o that's crazy

how did i end up in this thread
cactuar is too good

 

[Tee ay eye]

lol i dunno

but your answers always ****, Dave

i learn things without feeling like a noob somehow

 

[TheCrimsonBlur]

duh

edit:

God thats ****ing sexy.

This game is amazing.

 

[KAOSTAR]

lol i dunno

but your answers always ****, Dave

i learn things without feeling like a noob somehow

dam, just puttin his government name out there like that haha.

TAI lol

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Guys, FluxWolf just told me about this trick to grab edge after fox shines you no matter how close you are from the edge.

As soon as you leave the stage, press down (fast fall). Thats it. In the gif i wasn't holding in, i only put in 2 inputs (downb on fox, down on marth).

My hypothesis is fast falling lets you fall into range to grab the edge when otherwise you wouldn't get that low until you were too far horizontally.

 

[Niko45]

I've been trying to work on that for the longest time. Being able to do that makes a huge difference and can improve your vs fox game by like a full stock.

 

[I.B]

oooh man, that makes a lot of sense. Thanks a ****load Sveet.


i wonder if fox has enough time to wavedash out and shine you again before you can grab the edge.

 

[Dynamism?]

No, you just grab the edge.

How is this news? I barely know anything about this game, but I knew THAT.

Maybe because it's easy and doesn't require button pressing skills LOL

Yes, this game is amazing.