Important Carefully Ask PPMD about the Tiara Guy

[Cactuar]

Also Cactuar I don't know if you know that frame perfect trick with Marths D-Throw in which you down throw them towards the edge and if you turn around and d-tilt you will hit them if they tech in place, hit them if they tech away, hit them if they don't tech and grab them if they tech towards you (you just gotta be perfect with the turn around grab), they gotta be close to edge too so that if they tech away they don't move at all or very little.

M2K and I were two of the first people to do this. M2K figured out the frames and such for it. I had always done it naturally because I thought it was just the best thing to do while near the edge. This strategy is probably 2+ years old.

 

[JBM falcon08]

^lol this **** is so broken its ubelievable.

every high level marth i've seen play does this.

 

[Havokbringer]

Yeah I had always done this naturally as well but I know Fox cant get out of it without getting grabbed or d-tilted.

I just want to know if it works the same way on Falcon.

 

[elvenarrow3000]

Does it really have to be frame perfect? Dtilt is only like... twenty frames, and a rolling tech is forty, isn't it? It seems like you'd have a little bit of wiggle room...

 

[Havokbringer]

Does it really have to be frame perfect? Dtilt is only like... twenty frames, and a rolling tech is forty, isn't it? It seems like you'd have a little bit of wiggle room...

Your right but as you do it more and more it becomes natural and you automatically do it as fast as possible, just like all things. (atleast thats how it works for me)

Also you need that time to read the tech.

 

[Jx31]

Yeah I had always done this naturally as well but I know Fox cant get out of it without getting grabbed or d-tilted.

I just want to know if it works the same way on Falcon.

I do it to Falcons anyways and I don't recall any of them getting out of it before getting knocked off the stage or what not. I honestly don't see any reason why it shouldn't work on Falcon to be honest.

edit:....bah too lazy to take out the double negative

 

[Havokbringer]

Well Falcons Tech is pretty slow so I think it does work on him.

 

[elvenarrow3000]

Tech-Neutral

Total: 26
Invincible:
1-20 - [Everyone Else]
1-24 - Pichu, Pikachu

Tech-Roll Forward
Total: 40
Horizontal Movement At: 11
Distance: 16.6 ft
Invincible: 1-20

Tech-Roll Backward
Total: 40
Horizontal Movement At: 8
Distance: 13.6 ft
Invincible: 1-20

Marth's dtilt is IASA 20, right? I mean... considering also the time it takes Falcon to land... you could whiff and still react on neutral/advantageous frames.

 

[JesiahTEG]

M2K and I were two of the first people to do this. M2K figured out the frames and such for it. I had always done it naturally because I thought it was just the best thing to do while near the edge. This strategy is probably 2+ years old.

I know I saw Ken doing this in some of his older vids, but he preferred just waiting most of the time. He definitely knew about it though.

 

[elvenarrow3000]

I don't really think there's any reason to not dtilt, since you don't really lose anything if you miss. This is assuming you're near the edge and are already in a position to grab them regardless of where they go.

Also, spamming Overheat would KILL your Special Attack. Why would you do such a thing?

 

[ArcNatural]

You guys are also forgetting that you have to add the 1 frame for the turn and the frames for grabbing. It's not like you can dtilt then in 20 frames grab. I think when it's all added up you have like a 5-10 frame window to do it.

The main reason it works so well on Falco is because you don't need to move from the dtilt position. His roll isn't far enough. Fox forces you eventually to move out of position so that they can avoid the dtilt by rolling back. So while Falcon has a slow roll, I'm pretty sure they can do the same thing to get out of it. If you have to move from your original position they can eventually get out of it.

It will still work a majority of the time though, cause most players don't plan to accept getting grabbed 3 times in a row just to move Marth enough to get out of the dtilt.

 

[elvenarrow3000]

Yeah... I dunno, I'm missing a lot of numbers here in general. Still, I feel like Marth has the frame advantage here.

EDIT: I'm too lazy to look it up now, but if I recall correctly, Falcon's tech roll goes pretty far and isn't that slow. I remember not knowing why everyone thought he was so easy to techchase. I'll post numbers in the morning, unless someone (hint hint?) posts them first.

 

[Havokbringer]

I think for the people that don't understand fully they should check it themselves.

 

[Dogysamich]

So, I got wrecked by this twice, and it was like, a week and a half ago, so I cant remember how I DI'd into this nonsense

This nonsense right here

Yeah I dont remember what I did to get wrecked by that nonsense.

So what Do i need to do (or what DONT I need to do) to get hit by that?

 

[ArcNatural]

Pretty sure DI away and DI down would both work seperately or together in that case. It looked like you were DIing in at first then started holding away.

 

[JBM falcon08]

i NEVER risk Diing in, good players react and i'd rather go with the intelligent option rather than the gutsy "this might trick him" one.

 

[elvenarrow3000]

Watch out for bthrows though.

 

[Dark Sonic]

^^B-throw has terrible ending lag and really won't lead to anything no matter the DI (unless they're a spacie at really high percents)

 

[Mew2King]

more accurately, around 125% + (if at the edge this % can be even lower since you can F smash them while they are still in stun but have no ground to quickly land on)

 

[Miggz]

Thanks for the info, M2K!

XD

 

[KAOSTAR]

Aight, Dogy here with a serious question (**** April fools, I can mess with people elsewhere)

__

So, I got wrecked by this twice, and it was like, a week and a half ago, so I cant remember how I DI'd into this nonsense

This nonsense right here

Yeah I dont remember what I did to get wrecked by that nonsense.

So what Do i need to do (or what DONT I need to do) to get hit by that?

haha u gotta di away and down playa lol. dont get tippered lol it hurts

 

[Dogysamich]

*laughs and scratches head*

Sounds like im just ********. Thanks. :D

 

[Havokbringer]

Did you try up-bing into marth faster then he can foward smash you?

Or are you stun for too long?

 

[KAOSTAR]

yea I played this noob doc once and like he was a casual but he just kept ****ing up + b ing and I couldnt get a single ken combo off lol or even a string of fairs. thats might be able to hit marth b4 he gets that smash off since his hitbox goes out so far.

but yea di away and down hopefully marth wasnt at the very edge of the stage and still gets the tipper lol.

 

[Aesir]

The best positon for sheik to be in against marth is crouching. Discuss.

 

[KosukeKGA]

Very basic question for someone noobish like me...Can he grab that? >.>

 

[ArcNatural]

Yes, but not at maximum distance for standing/JC. He can grab a crouching Sheik if when you grab his elbow is above Sheik. You can grab her farther away if she is standing.

I don't think Sheik crouching as a standalone position is what makes Sheik's CC so good. It's that plus that fact that her grab range puts Marth in a much more difficult spacing game.

If Sheik didn't have needles I'm pretty sure for some reason that this matchup would hugely be in Marth's favor. But Sheik does, and I feel like that changes EVERYTHING. Discuss.

 

[Witchking_of_Angmar]

@Elven about the Falcon tech thing:

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=129276&page=62

The Sheik boards know all.

....although considering that we didn't reach a conclusion, that's probably not quite correct. Maguuuuus.

 

[Mew2King]

sheik can space fair on marth's shield then immediately down tilt, and she'll be safe from most counterattacks

 

[Dogysamich]

Did you try up-bing into marth faster then he can foward smash you?

Or are you stun for too long?

yea I played this noob doc once and like he was a casual but he just kept ****ing up + b ing and I couldnt get a single ken combo off lol or even a string of fairs. thats might be able to hit marth b4 he gets that smash off since his hitbox goes out so far.

but yea di away and down hopefully marth wasnt at the very edge of the stage and still gets the tipper lol.

Both times I flat out got caught. I wasnt expecting a f.smash, but even after seeing it a second time I didnt exactly know what I did wrong, I was just making an effort to not get grabbed again.

As for up+bing, i might have been able to do it, but up+bing stuff like that gets doc in trouble more-often-than-not.

 

[KAOSTAR]

Both times I flat out got caught. I wasnt expecting a f.smash, but even after seeing it a second time I didnt exactly know what I did wrong, I was just making an effort to not get grabbed again.

As for up+bing, i might have been able to do it, but up+bing stuff like that gets doc in trouble more-often-than-not.

Yea I feel it. that can get u into some **** against marth. but real talk if u get caught in some fairs up +B outta that **** lol cuz theres a good chance u will land with enough time to protect yourself.

SEcond to everyone==Im really good at the falcon matchup due to WA having so many falcon mains(mainly UW) and thats what I got into smash with and Im really comfortable with marth and m2 in that battle but....

question1 most falcons recover high and I found it really easy on falcons across the board to just dair with a full hop/double jump after knocking them off the stage with an F smash. ive never seen anyone else do that tho. but I just wanted some feedback. I think it works better to just nip it in the bud with a dair away from the stage instead of waiting with fsmashes and dtilts.

Question2 is there anyway to really escape the dthrow or upthrow to knee???? I believe its at higher percents that its a problem

 

[Heart Break Kid]

sheik can space fair on marth's shield then immediately down tilt, and she'll be safe from most counterattacks

Makes me hate Sheik even more.

But KAOSTAR...

Question 1- Its a good idea to Dair as its definitly more reliable as a kill than waiting for fsmash. I dnt why people dont go out there and do it more. Falcons recovery sucks. But personally I suck v Falcon and I cnt time anything against him...I cnt speak for everyoneelse though. But I miss time dairs alot and sometimes I just run into his up b lol. My personaly preference if he recovers high is to try and jump out and fair/bair, otherwise Id wait for fsmash when he lands haha, I really suck at edgeguarding Falcon.

Question 2- I dnt think theres much you can do at those higher percents, I know at low percents Im pretty sure you can fair out, but once you get to that 70-90? (Just a guess, around that area though.) I think your getting knee'd unless the Falcon messes up. I just try and DI fromt there. Falcon players around the falcon boards would know something like that. Im not good at knowing frames and percents lol

And I have both Scar and Hax to practice against but I still suck at the matchup. Im learing Sheik/Falco for him though lol

 

[KAOSTAR]

Makes me hate Sheik even more.

But KAOSTAR...

Question 1- Its a good idea to Dair as its definitly more reliable as a kill than waiting for fsmash. I dnt why people dont go out there and do it more. Falcons recovery sucks. But personally I suck v Falcon and I cnt time anything against him...I cnt speak for everyoneelse though. But I miss time dairs alot and sometimes I just run into his up b lol. My personaly preference if he recovers high is to try and jump out and fair/bair, otherwise Id wait for fsmash when he lands haha, I really suck at edgeguarding Falcon.

Question 2- I dnt think theres much you can do at those higher percents, I know at low percents Im pretty sure you can fair out, but once you get to that 70-90? (Just a guess, around that area though.) I think your getting knee'd unless the Falcon messes up. I just try and DI fromt there. Falcon players around the falcon boards would know something like that. Im not good at knowing frames and percents lol

And I have both Scar and Hax to practice against but I still suck at the matchup. Im learing Sheik/Falco for him though lol

thanks. yea If I would have to pick my talent for smash its timing. I can time attacks pretty well often dairing fox falcos out of forward be and good at powershielding.

and yea Ill check the falcon boards I suppose to ask and Im sure m2k will respond at somepoint lol wont u m2k,,,, where are u at !!!!!!!!??? lol.

 

[elvenarrow3000]

Yeah, I remember the Sheik thread. Meh.

 

[Havokbringer]

When I edgeguard C.Falcon that is recovery from high above the edge I just fair them back off or bair them into a position that I can kill em.

It just takes patience.

 

[KAOSTAR]

When I edgeguard C.Falcon that is recovery from high above the edge I just fair them back off or bair them into a position that I can kill em.

It just takes patience.

yea thats what most ppl tend to do. but I receive alot of compliments from falcon players cuz they say it just doesnt even give them a chance. u just dair them and they arent even near the stage to tech or high enough to grab the ledge.

 

[metashinryu]

peope all u have to do to edgeguard falcon is hang on the edge and ledgehop with a dair(that **** always work T_T)

 

[KAOSTAR]

peope all u have to do to edgeguard falcon is hang on the edge and ledgehop with a dair(that **** always work T_T)

haha what if they go high. and you cant forward smash from the ledge

 

[elvenarrow3000]

Ledgehop uair to fsmash? Or ledgehop uair to dair if you're feeling lucky =P

Most of the time, I do feel like it's best to edgeguard from the ledge.

 

[Scar]

uthrow knee autocombos to death at every percent so you should probably just accept it and not even DI

also hbk i **** sheik and suck vs falco