Tee ay eye
Smash Hero
the jerk circle?
-
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- Thread starter Cactuar
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clowsui
Smash Legend
Nvm then. Tai request me on Skype (same name) and ill add you to the marth group
Tee ay eye
Smash Hero
skype request sent
PP,
After reviewing GF's over again what was it that made you decide to approach Armada while he was in the air? What are the mixup's in this situation where Peach is floating diagonally above you? I was able to catch onto some slight things like you'd short hop back while he was floating and then run forward and fair that way Armada would have already started floating and couldnt change directions quickly enough to get away from the fair and would be forced to air dodge. I'd love to hear more of your input on this though. I was struggling with this in particular and would love some help thanks.
After reviewing GF's over again what was it that made you decide to approach Armada while he was in the air? What are the mixup's in this situation where Peach is floating diagonally above you? I was able to catch onto some slight things like you'd short hop back while he was floating and then run forward and fair that way Armada would have already started floating and couldnt change directions quickly enough to get away from the fair and would be forced to air dodge. I'd love to hear more of your input on this though. I was struggling with this in particular and would love some help thanks.
Because he floats at ranges that are within dash to Fair before he can react. He needs to gtfo me and he basically has to start a Fair early and/or weave back to beat out my dash jump Fair.
Approaching Peach air to air is okay as a mixup and generally serves to make her not come into you as hard later because she respects your options(unless he starts/started rambo'ing me which was funny) and then you just wreck em on the ground. If you can't hit a Peach out of the way you are either misjudging your character, not conditioning your opponent well, or they simply don't want to actually zone close to you(they should lose to you taking free stage in this last case.)
Approaching Peach air to air is okay as a mixup and generally serves to make her not come into you as hard later because she respects your options(unless he starts/started rambo'ing me which was funny) and then you just wreck em on the ground. If you can't hit a Peach out of the way you are either misjudging your character, not conditioning your opponent well, or they simply don't want to actually zone close to you(they should lose to you taking free stage in this last case.)
Dart!
Smash Master
If peach has a turnip in her hand she can't Nair. Obviously. Which means she has no GTFO me move. Just keep hitting her. PP was doing a very good job of this. It's a very underrated strategy vs peach IMO
Also PP how does your falco do vs armada on dreamland?
I was hoping you would go falco on dreamland, marth just struggles to get easy kills there.
Also PP how does your falco do vs armada on dreamland?
I was hoping you would go falco on dreamland, marth just struggles to get easy kills there.
KirbyKaze
Smash Legend
If Peach is holding a veggie she becomes combo food if you have any combo skill at all. With like every character.
I think on DL if you lack a throw KO on Peach or kill moves that are lower commitment or fast enough to do spontaneously then you have to deny her height and fish for gayer things. U-throw drags the game into a long match of consistency and exploiting position but that's nerfed on DL because Peach has 8 stocks on DL. More d-throw mixup would have helped PP IMO. He was using f-throw in that manner but d-throw becomes better and it's often the most powerful throw while retaining a similar option coverage game to the others.
I think on DL if you lack a throw KO on Peach or kill moves that are lower commitment or fast enough to do spontaneously then you have to deny her height and fish for gayer things. U-throw drags the game into a long match of consistency and exploiting position but that's nerfed on DL because Peach has 8 stocks on DL. More d-throw mixup would have helped PP IMO. He was using f-throw in that manner but d-throw becomes better and it's often the most powerful throw while retaining a similar option coverage game to the others.
knightpraetor
Smash Champion
- Joined
- Oct 20, 2005
- Messages
- 2,321
how many frames is it for peach to drop the turnip? cause i nair by drop into instant nair a lot. Just curious how slow it is
Dart!
Smash Master
The one time PP down threw armada actually DI'ed it well enough to hit PP trying to follow up.
If Peach could Dsmash then don't swing moving into her when she's on the ground. If she's in the air then counter vs Fair tricks vs shield breaker vs regular getups.
Yeah I like hitting turnip-holding Peach. Only thing she can do assuming I'm playing decently is turnip OOS and lol if I can't beat that then I deserve to lose.
My Falco was buttcheeks all weekend so I had to try Marth on DL. Assuming both of my characters are playing well I'd rather go Falco on that stage because it feels slightly in Falco's favor overall there.
I think you're right and totally forgot about Dthrow but I did need to fish for earlier ways to kill. Not sure if AR knows how to break my grab mixups or not so I won't talk about it beyond that.If Peach is holding a veggie she becomes combo food if you have any combo skill at all. With like every character.
I think on DL if you lack a throw KO on Peach or kill moves that are lower commitment or fast enough to do spontaneously then you have to deny her height and fish for gayer things. U-throw drags the game into a long match of consistency and exploiting position but that's nerfed on DL because Peach has 8 stocks on DL. More d-throw mixup would have helped PP IMO. He was using f-throw in that manner but d-throw becomes better and it's often the most powerful throw while retaining a similar option coverage game to the others.
Dthrowing at 0 was kinda stupid lmao. I'm pretty sure I could have walked away and poked or regrabbed instead of trying to Fair or something lol. I could have also just tried Dthrow at later percents for mixups but I don't know when Dthrow starts becoming viable since I got hit trying it around 0.
Jun.
Smash Lord
Dr Peepee
I have to know.
are you better than Mew2king?
I have to know.
are you better than Mew2king?
With Marth? I believe so(overall. there are things like killing and other punishment setups he can do better than me).
If I played Marth vs M2K at an apex-sized event I may lose though because he knows the Marth vs Sheik matchup really well but I believe I can win that.
If I played Marth vs M2K at an apex-sized event I may lose though because he knows the Marth vs Sheik matchup really well but I believe I can win that.
ChivalRuse
Smash Hero
Thank you for the signature, good sir.
Jun.
Smash Lord
you heard it here folks.
Dart!
Smash Master
There were times where you hit him off the stage and dashed into dtilt to poke his jump. Use dsmash. It's faster and will kill at obscene percents if they aren't aware.
Can you give me an example?
I'm also pretty afraid to Dsmash because of the ending lag =(
I'm also pretty afraid to Dsmash because of the ending lag =(
Dart!
Smash Master
Let me look through your set again. Armada was at 80-90ish I think and you hit/threw him and he DIed down an away. You dashed into dtilt and BARELY missed. One sec
yeah if you get a timestamp I'd really appreciate it man
Just throwing my 2 cents in here but I don't think the risk to reward ration on that is pretty ballsy. One great way to kill peach though is to bait her into dash attacking you and shielding it then reverse up b oos. Or regular not sure but I think reverse does better knock back or something, least it feels that way. Up B oos would **** imo because good peach player's will be holding down expecting to get shield grabbed and DI the up B horribly.
It was tough to get AR to stop dash attacking like a froob every time I wanted him to at later percents but yeah I'll keep it in mind haha.
Jun.
Smash Lord
Dash to shield vs a dash attacking Peach is your friend
but then again I highly doubt that would work against high class players multiple times.
Peach DA is just broken. Why it can beat/clank with disjointed hitboxes I do not know.
but then again I highly doubt that would work against high class players multiple times.
Peach DA is just broken. Why it can beat/clank with disjointed hitboxes I do not know.
The hitbox is a little weird on it if I remember correctly, like SUPER weird. But yeah, if you just dash dance bait it out it's not so bad. Watching a good Marth vs a good Peach is really funny. Marth just chases her to the ends of the earth and back lol.
What is the best stage to take a peach to? I am never sure and I know that it relies on preference, I like BF because my sword can hit her basically no matter where she is and her float options are limited due to the tightness of the stage. Is BF an ok stage for this 2013 matchup?
- Joined
- Mar 14, 2011
- Messages
- 5,493
Very good for you: Final Destination (let's you abuse her horrible landings to the fullest, uthrow leaves her a super bad position because there are no platforms to help her out), Yoshi's Story (sword covers everywhere, tipper kills super early)
Good/Decent: Pokemon Stadium (Marth covers side plats really well, so uthrowing her still puts her in an awful position; the stage gives you decent kill power too, but the transformations can be troublesome for Marth)
Even/Ok: Battlefield is....good. You cover a lot with your sword, but platforms help her some when you get her above you...Not much to say
Bad for you: Dreamland (Obvious lack of coverage, lack of kill power completely, platforms here are safer for her than on any other stage)
I honestly don't know about FoD. Sword covers a lot of room, but Peach likes this stage in general....someone else will have ideas on it, I'm sure.
Just my two cents.
Good/Decent: Pokemon Stadium (Marth covers side plats really well, so uthrowing her still puts her in an awful position; the stage gives you decent kill power too, but the transformations can be troublesome for Marth)
Even/Ok: Battlefield is....good. You cover a lot with your sword, but platforms help her some when you get her above you...Not much to say
Bad for you: Dreamland (Obvious lack of coverage, lack of kill power completely, platforms here are safer for her than on any other stage)
I honestly don't know about FoD. Sword covers a lot of room, but Peach likes this stage in general....someone else will have ideas on it, I'm sure.
Just my two cents.
Niko45
Smash Master
YS, Pokemon, Battlefield.
FD is gigantic.
FD is gigantic.
knightpraetor
Smash Champion
- Joined
- Oct 20, 2005
- Messages
- 2,321
back when i was a marth main, i thought PS, FD, YS, BF, FoD, DL was the order from best for marth to worst for marth. Now that i'm a peach main; hmm, honestly I'm struggling more on YS than on FD, but I think that is more other marths not being willing to camp me as hard as I would do if I were the marth. But BF, FoD, DL are pretty clearly the worst stages for marth
clowsui
Smash Legend
I don't know about FoD being bad for Marth. Getting edgeguarded on that stage is *** but variable platform heights altogether provides some nifty things wrt your pressure and also escape options against the opponent's offense
MT_
Smash Ace
FoD having closer side blastzones is also worth mentioning.
Good Peaches always ban YS against me. But it's good for obvious reasons.
I used to think FoD was good, but now that I think about it, it's not a good choice, haha. High ceiling, weirdly positioned platforms that don't affect her floating but affect my dash-dancing, not enough room to DD camp but also not small enough that I cover enough of the stage with my sword, and bad recovery.
Battlefield: I dislike Battlefield because I feel like her edgeguarding against Marth is super good when you can't ride/tech the stage. But I suppose the platforms are a good height to combo her until 70 or so with uairs and fairs... and there is enough main stage to DD camp. It's just that I typically don't DD camp, so that's not a plus for me.
Pokemon Stadium: I really like the neutral stage for Marth, because DD space and great platform height. I find Marth doesn't benefit thaaat much from having a top platform, so I'm fine without it. Lower ceiling. Transformations suck, but then, it's not like they're that great for Peach either. So I guess it's in general good.
FD: I find it too hard to kill Peach here. I suppose you could space her out/try to keep her above you til she's at like 150+, but this is a pain. Meanwhile, her combos are not insignificant. Makes me think of M2K vs. Armada, but maybe PP's more patient style is the way to go on a stage like this. I don't know. Mixed feelings.
So what do I strike to? Normally it goes like this, with P= Peach and M = Marth
P: strike YS
M: strike FoD and DL
P: strike BF. Ergo, FD.
OR:
M: strike DL
P: strike YS, BF
M: strike FoD or FD. The better choice here is probably FD, but again, this is painful.
So maybe in that first match, I should just play Marth and show her I can be patient. That way, regardless of whether I win/lose, she will think twice about taking me to a super big stage.
@ AustinRC: I find that when Peach dash attacks my shield, she is far enough into me that the strong part of the up+b (esp. reversed) doesn't hit. I get reverse up+b's out of her fair->jab sometimes, though.
I used to think FoD was good, but now that I think about it, it's not a good choice, haha. High ceiling, weirdly positioned platforms that don't affect her floating but affect my dash-dancing, not enough room to DD camp but also not small enough that I cover enough of the stage with my sword, and bad recovery.
Battlefield: I dislike Battlefield because I feel like her edgeguarding against Marth is super good when you can't ride/tech the stage. But I suppose the platforms are a good height to combo her until 70 or so with uairs and fairs... and there is enough main stage to DD camp. It's just that I typically don't DD camp, so that's not a plus for me.
Pokemon Stadium: I really like the neutral stage for Marth, because DD space and great platform height. I find Marth doesn't benefit thaaat much from having a top platform, so I'm fine without it. Lower ceiling. Transformations suck, but then, it's not like they're that great for Peach either. So I guess it's in general good.
FD: I find it too hard to kill Peach here. I suppose you could space her out/try to keep her above you til she's at like 150+, but this is a pain. Meanwhile, her combos are not insignificant. Makes me think of M2K vs. Armada, but maybe PP's more patient style is the way to go on a stage like this. I don't know. Mixed feelings.
So what do I strike to? Normally it goes like this, with P= Peach and M = Marth
P: strike YS
M: strike FoD and DL
P: strike BF. Ergo, FD.
OR:
M: strike DL
P: strike YS, BF
M: strike FoD or FD. The better choice here is probably FD, but again, this is painful.
So maybe in that first match, I should just play Marth and show her I can be patient. That way, regardless of whether I win/lose, she will think twice about taking me to a super big stage.
@ AustinRC: I find that when Peach dash attacks my shield, she is far enough into me that the strong part of the up+b (esp. reversed) doesn't hit. I get reverse up+b's out of her fair->jab sometimes, though.
@Diakonos - Is that based off one particular player or against peaches in general. Also never thought about up bing them after their jab stuff, ill have to try that out. Also the reason marth takes peach to FD is because she doesn't have platforms to retreat to. She loses the neutral game and either retreats to the air to start floating or she chooses another option like dash attack or pull a turnip. being in the air on marths terms is a bad thing and enouhh of it can be mentally fatiguing to your opponent as well. To keep getting grabbed and re up thrown or combined has to take quite a mental toll on the opposing player. You do have to be patient but I feel this level benefits marth more overall.
Also starting to think about FoD as a counter pick. It's really small and she suffered from the neutral game too because of the platforms sometimes. Getting around dtilt for her would be a lot more difficult because of the short platforms.
Also starting to think about FoD as a counter pick. It's really small and she suffered from the neutral game too because of the platforms sometimes. Getting around dtilt for her would be a lot more difficult because of the short platforms.
clowsui
Smash Legend
We're talking about just vs peach or in general?
I mean against Peaches in general. Unless only the tip of their dash attack hits you, she is too far into your shield to hit with the strong part of the up+b. That's my experience, at least.@Diakonos - Is that based off one particular player or against peaches in general. Also never thought about up bing them after their jab stuff, ill have to try that out. Also the reason marth takes peach to FD is because she doesn't have platforms to retreat to. She loses the neutral game and either retreats to the air to start floating or she chooses another option like dash attack or pull a turnip. being in the air on marths terms is a bad thing and enouhh of it can be mentally fatiguing to your opponent as well. To keep getting grabbed and re up thrown or combined has to take quite a mental toll on the opposing player. You do have to be patient but I feel this level benefits marth more overall.
Also starting to think about FoD as a counter pick. It's really small and she suffered from the neutral game too because of the platforms sometimes. Getting around dtilt for her would be a lot more difficult because of the short platforms.
Yeah, I can see why FD would be good. Maybe I'm just not patient enough. What should I do when Peach is diagonally above me, floating, waiting for me to attack? I often end up eating a fair against Vwins and other good Peaches. And I guess Marth does win the neutral, but I'd have to see more of this to see how it actually works.
As regards FoD, I wouldn't say it's really small at all. High ceilings, and I don't think think the sides are thaaat close to the stage. She has enough room to move around. And again, the platforms get in your way more than they get in hers.
@Clowsui, I was talking about vs. Peach.
That's weird I have the opposite problem sometimes they are behind me after they dash attack. Well in any even I guess you could still punish with fair oos and stuff. PP's set vs Armada was a great example to base your neutral game vs Peach off of. There is a certain range that marth can full hop and fair her for free. That way it keeps her thinking before she comes down on you. She'll start to either air dodge or aerial early to prevent that from happening. Also mid high floats can be beaten by nair/ ftilt/ jab. But you have to be REALLY careful and make sure they'll hit because if she's just a little too high she'll get you with fair or nair. In instances you are unsure I'd say stick with full hop early fair.
And as for FoD yeah, you maybe right. I'll need to play around with it for awhile. Is the ceiling really that big on the stage? I had no idea.
Mahie
Smash Lord
I also have trouble with the floating diagonally thing. Armada always tricks me into thinking I can fair, and it just whiffs and I get ***** instead. I guess DDing and waiting for the float timer to run out is one way to solve it... the goal being to cover all options while she goes back to the floor, knowing that she won't have FC and will have to Lcancel (=Lag = Shieldgrab if you shield), and while being able to punish if she airdodges through something.
Gotta refine the timing on that and see what moves achieve it best.
Gotta refine the timing on that and see what moves achieve it best.
AustinRC, if Peach dash attacks, ending up behind you, then up+b still doesn't help. And she's happy there, since your dair OOS won't do much and may even leave you vulnerable. Marth's not good at point-blank unless you have a read.
Mhm... I guess it just sucks to be waiting for her float to end. I wonder if WD right under her and wait for her reaction would work. She wouldn't have time to nair (you could shield it), though she may try to FC a bair->dsmash. Hmmm. Any advice here? How do we beat a floating Peach diagonally above Marth?
Haha, yeah I know Diakonos. I don't do it when she goes behind me, it's just aggravating! Best thing I've found so far is sh bair, it can help you get a little percent and also gain back stage space depending on how far away she goes.
Also peach floating diagonally above Marth can be dealt with a few different ways. Depending on where she is diagonally above you you can either full jump fair immediately or run and full jump fair. This will keep her honest after you get her with it a few times. After that they'll be pressured to doing an early aerial so if she tries to early aerial and land you can dash dance away or dash dance and go under her and get a grab. I think forward B would also work in this instance. Also keep in mind if she hits your shield early with nair or bair you can grab her. It's the same as Fox or Falco early nairing your shield.
Hm, I haven't found fair to be that helpful for me for some reason. I think most of the time the Peach anticipates it and floats back. If I whiff it, I get punished pretty bad. I'm not sure; maybe I'll have to wait til I have some videos up.
But yeah, DD grab would be good.
But yeah, DD grab would be good.
Well fair only works like I said if you do it in the right positioning. If you give me your Skype account we can discuss it and ill show you what ranges I'm talking about through there. Or I could point then out to you during the GF set with PP and Armada.