Important Carefully Ask PPMD about the Tiara Guy

[knightpraetor]

what i posted was just me being pissed off at the logic that is typical on this site. But Smashboards exists so people can theorycraft away their time. if that happens to involve ignoring reality, so be it.

 

[ShroudedOne]

People aren't ignoring reality, so much as they are drawing different conclusions from what they see. Armada's performance may mean "Peach is better than we thought" or it might mean "Armada is really, really good." PP's performance with Marth can be seen the same way. It can be one, the other, or both, but almost no one is really qualified to make that judgment, and I don't find that asserting what you think as though it's reality helps much.

I'm not trying to be a douche or anything, just my thoughts.

There was probably a time when SWF was good for reading, though, lol.

 

[AustinRC]

I don't understand the logic of "wait for someone else to do it then maybe ill gve it a try." You should be the one to try and be the first to help advance the characters meta game. I dropped fox for this amazing character and I can see his true potential even if the general public cant. Who else is with me?! Also ill be aiming to make top ten at the next national/ international tournament with just marth. Just saying.

 

[knightpraetor]

it's not the logic of 'give this char' a try that pissed me off...it's just the flawed logic that pp managing to take one set off of armada, something he can already do with falco, suddenly makes everyone start going off about how good marth is, yet neglecting two years (4?) of data demonstrating marth's weaknesses

Meanwhile when a marth loses someone always says the marth was just off or played badly, rather than realizing that it is the nature of marth's psuedo pressure. He makes you respect options out of the fear of what he can do, but he isn't actually able to cover multiple options well at all. However, he needs to get high damage off each hit just to compete with spacies. Pewpewu's set with silent wolf had a place where anyone could have just looked and easily understood what happens when the fox just ignores the chance that he could get zero to deathed and goes in anyways. I honestly think 70-80% of the time, Silent wolf's choice would have been wrong. Despite that this one time it probably saved him a stock.

marth needs to get too much off of each advantage, especially after light hits that knock the opponent away. He can not cover everything and is a high variance character making him bad for progressing through tourneys with, though perhaps an adequate secondary. However, what helps marth get through at the low mid level are his baits. With baits you get out of the mixup that exists and play with the opponents head making them think they can get out for free, and then you have your guaranteed damage. Pewpewu chose to bait rather than in several times during his match, which is the right way to play marth in my opinion, but if they don't fall for the baits you often get weak pressure.


Anyway the tendency by people on smashboards to A. selectively choose data they want instead of viewing a year or two's worth of data (while at the same time selectively ignoring matches), and B. to use the argument 'Results don't mean anything,' as if their bull**** theorycrafting holds more water, is starting to get to me.

The better you get, the more you realize that the top level matchups play out as they do for a reason. i would go so far as to say results strictly match the top player's current understandings of those matchups.

people keep saying that m2k has some falco issue, but the matchup is even, and the problem lies with him, and think that if m2k suddenly played like they wanted then he would be able to win. Or they think that PP and mango are in just such a different league that M2k can't compete, but if pp or mango played marth it would be different.

If these players had grasped basic concepts like when to use marth's fair vs his nair, or how to properly cover opponents coming down, then maybe it would be a little more bearable to listen to how they think they know marth falco better than m2k. But nah it's player issues. No doubt hbox's problem is also just a player issue. Getting outplayed by armada in that intense fight.

and marth sheik is even, but all top players know to avoid it somehow and top marths have dropped sets to midlevel sheiks multiple times in the last two years, and sheik is probably the single largest lifetime reason for marths being knocked out of tourney.

I don't get why this community thinks it is unreasonable to let results shape a tier list. Do other fighting game communities really build their tiers on theorycraft alone?

One part of my earlier rant was that the time it takes a move to come out directly impacts the reaction speed for a char and thus the distance in which he can react to options. Dashdancing and other movement takes you in and out of reaction distance. A char's options constantly change based on the distance modified by some reaction factor for all moves when reacting. This means that the faster your moves are the easier it is to react and the more reactive options you have, while the slower your moves are the harder you have to read to keep up. Reading creates variance when your reads are wrong. A lot of playing at high level play is learning where you can react to remove the variance from your game and make a "soft read" where you move to a spot where you can punish on reaction if you are right about what they will do but have other options. Marth cannot deal with fast chars inside a certain distance because he cannot react past a certain point. Playing low level players or players you play regularly you eventually memorize their patterns and you suddenly become a god tier char who can punish everything for massive damage based on your read. But in real tourneys you are too often wrong and don't have nearly as good of a reaction game as char with fast movesets.

 

[TKD+ITA+Mar=]

If these players had grasped basic concepts like when to use marth's fair vs his nair

Sorry for the off topicness, but I am terribad at this game/character and I was wondering the answer to this for awhile. When does one choose fair vs nair? (Other than nair to send them off stage or not nair because the other character is really short.)

 

[ShroudedOne]

[COLLAPSE="My response to your post, if you care, KP"]

it's not the logic of 'give this char' a try that pissed me off...it's just the flawed logic that pp managing to take one set off of armada, something he can already do with falco, suddenly makes everyone start going off about how good marth is, yet neglecting two years (4?) of data demonstrating marth's weaknesses

Is it Marth's weakness, or the player's weakness? How do you truly know, compared to someone like PP/Armada, who say that people overstate Marth's weaknesses? Even M2K has had Marth at the same spot as most people (5th) on the tier list. Are these players just using useless theorycraft, or do they know things about this game that you don't/are overlooking?

Meanwhile when a marth loses someone always says the marth was just off or played badly, rather than realizing that it is the nature of marth's psuedo pressure.

Psuedo pressure? I understand what you mean here, but I think his pressure is a very real threat, due to his punishment/positional game. Tell me if I'm misunderstanding, though.

marth needs to get too much off of each advantage, especially after light hits that knock the opponent away. He can not cover everything and is a high variance character making him bad for progressing through tourneys with, though perhaps an adequate secondary. However, what helps marth get through at the low mid level are his baits. With baits you get out of the mixup that exists and play with the opponents head making them think they can get out for free, and then you have your guaranteed damage. Pewpewu chose to bait rather than in several times during his match, which is the right way to play marth in my opinion, but if they don't fall for the baits you often get weak pressure.

Does this mean that Falco/Fox are bad characters for progressing through tournament with as well? Or am I misunderstand what you mean by "high variance"? I know how you're applying it to Marth, and I agree (his biggest weakness by far is when he looses his footing, because he is so very awful at getting it back), but spacies deal with a similar issue, where one hit on them can very well be their stock.

Anyway the tendency by people on smashboards to A. selectively choose data they want instead of viewing a year or two's worth of data (while at the same time selectively ignoring matches), and B. to use the argument 'Results don't mean anything,' as if their bull**** theorycrafting holds more water, is starting to get to me.

Again, the amount of variance in player styles/player skill, the limited pool of usable talent (maybe 20 percent of people who play this game are high/top level), and the fact that people aren't really playing to the optimal strategy in every set (and other human errors)...I think all of these factors combine to say that we can't just look at results and say, "This is what it must be."

A lot of SWF tend to take theorycrafting into their own hands, I suppose, but I don't agree with letting results alone dictate how good a character is, for the reasons above and more.

people keep saying that m2k has some falco issue, but the matchup is even, and the problem lies with him, and think that if m2k suddenly played like they wanted then he would be able to win. Or they think that PP and mango are in just such a different league that M2k can't compete, but if pp or mango played marth it would be different.

M2K has had a fair number of close Marth/Falco sets, but he says it himself that he "gets emo" when playing against them at times, and that influences his performance (look at Zenith 2012 GFs, set 2, game 5, for example). Is it hard to believe that a player can just be uncomfortable in a matchup?

If these players had grasped basic concepts like when to use marth's fair vs his nair, or how to properly cover opponents coming down, then maybe it would be a little more bearable to listen to how they think they know marth falco better than m2k. But nah it's player issues. No doubt hbox's problem is also just a player issue. Getting outplayed by armada in that intense fight.

How hard is it to believe that you can simply be outplayed? You're assuming that M2K knows everything that will ever need to be known about Marth, just because he's a top player who has used him for so long, and that all he says about Marth should be taken 100% at face value. Don't misunderstand me, M2K is without a doubt extremely knowledgeable when it comes to Marth, but human beings make mistakes, errors in judgement, and come to revise these as they learn. Don't throw out that possibility.

and marth sheik is even, but all top players know to avoid it somehow and top marths have dropped sets to midlevel sheiks multiple times in the last two years, and sheik is probably the single largest lifetime reason for marths being knocked out of tourney.

Can you name tournament sets that high level Marths have dropped to mid level Sheiks?

I don't get why this community thinks it is unreasonable to let results shape a tier list. Do other fighting game communities really build their tiers on theorycraft alone?

It isn't unreasonable (it actually follows reason), but don't take them as they come.

One part of my earlier rant was that the time it takes a move to come out directly impacts the reaction speed for a char and thus the distance in which he can react to options. Dashdancing and other movement takes you in and out of reaction distance. A char's options constantly change based on the distance modified by some reaction factor for all moves when reacting. This means that the faster your moves are the easier it is to react and the more reactive options you have, while the slower your moves are the harder you have to read to keep up. Reading creates variance when your reads are wrong. A lot of playing at high level play is learning where you can react to remove the variance from your game and make a "soft read" where you move to a spot where you can punish on reaction if you are right about what they will do but have other options. Marth cannot deal with fast chars inside a certain distance because he cannot react past a certain point. Playing low level players or players you play regularly you eventually memorize their patterns and you suddenly become a god tier char who can punish everything for massive damage based on your read. But in real tourneys you are too often wrong and don't have nearly as good of a reaction game as char with fast movesets.

I agree with most of this. But if it's within human capabilities (I'm tired of people saying that Fox is placed where he is because of TAS expectations when that CLEARLY isn't the case), should the difficulty of the technique be counted as a character weakness? I'm not really answering the point you make in this paragraph, but one you had in your other post.

I'm just trying to understand/explain/perhaps enlighten. Tell me if my interpretations of your statements are off-base.[/COLLAPSE]

 

[Dr Peepee]

wusguuuuuuuuuuud

 

[Cactuar]

Scumbag PP. Marth forum blows up with lengthy posts in response to M2K and PP's Marth play at Apex, PP responds with "wusguuuuuuuuuuud"

 

[knightpraetor]

[COLLAPSE="My response to your post, if you care, KP"]

Is it Marth's weakness, or the player's weakness? How do you truly know, compared to someone like PP/Armada, who say that people overstate Marth's weaknesses? Even M2K has had Marth at the same spot as most people (5th) on the tier list. Are these players just using useless theorycraft, or do they know things about this game that you don't/are overlooking?

My position isn't that marth's position is that wrong, only that peach's is obviously wrong. Also, 5th is **** in this game compared to the top 3's matchup spread or even top 4

Psuedo pressure? I understand what you mean here, but I think his pressure is a very real threat, due to his punishment/positional game. Tell me if I'm misunderstanding, though.

The strength of pressure corresponds directly to the strength of your char to punish the opponent from having the opponent pinned. When any actual commitment (dashing close enough to cover the roll away reactively or shing to pin them [best option ever unless they are fast like fox/falcon or have a dash attack that cuts under like sheik/peach]) runs the risk of completely reversing the situation for marth. Marth does well when he manages to pin the opponent, better than fox/falco. The issue is that every small hit at low percents doesn't actually serve any real purpose if the opponent is good and moves promptly and gets lucky (times the roll in/dash attack/fast flying nair while marth is committing, partially reaction, partially guessing correctly when marth is committing. I don't feel like elaborating a half dozen situations just for this).. everything from low percent dtilt to nair to fair have these problems. just using grab is not a consistent option at high level (did anyone else get amused by the grab spam and think they would do the exact same thing?). Anyway fox/falco can deal with this because they do low commitment moves and then cover the roll anyway (has anyone else watched the video where mango is teaching smash and just keeps telling the crowd the opponent is going to roll until he does while doing low commitment zoning with AC bair? if he had been marth in that situation misreading the 4 times in a row that he did would have been his opponent getting out for free 4 times in a row). Dashdance on the other hand like pewpewu/PP prefer to use deals better with the random roll out (even if they roll at a timing you can't guarantee a grab on, you still have your pressure though now they are on top of you), but the weakness of this is if the fast char just mix-up ignoring your pressure and attacking and just rolling away if there is any room. falco can ignore your pressure and reverse the situation as well by lasering or by taking the time to turn around so that he has access to AC bair pokes. sheik/peach can just dash attack you/wd tilt you. Anyway i don't know why i'm bothering to argue that marth's pressure is far weaker and higher variance than falco/fox's pressure. I think almost everyone on the board would already agree with that. What i really want to argue is that peach hands down beats marth in terms of pressuring pinned opponents except for falco on the larger stages where she can't cover top platform). Peach in float has stronger coverage of actual movement from shield. aggressive options from bad positions don't work because peach can just trade, and if she is wrong and they roll while she was about to commitment, fade back and aerial dsmash aerial jab jab and you may get something anyway. Marth and falcon in their fail pressure situations get wrecked for it, top level chars (sheik falco fox) do not.

Does this mean that Falco/Fox are bad characters for progressing through tournament with as well? Or am I misunderstand what you mean by "high variance"? I know how you're applying it to Marth, and I agree (his biggest weakness by far is when he looses his footing, because he is so very awful at getting it back), but spacies deal with a similar issue, where one hit on them can very well be their stock.

Fox/falco need to die within 2 grabs if you plan to keep pace with them at high level. Dying in one adds variance, but to be blunt, fox/falco have ways to avoid that even on FD. Dying in one grab is just being bad. And dying in two may be a problem at low level but only gives marth a chance of winning at higher level. The assumption also is that fox/falco can't match marth's damage output, which they can, learn to combo. fox is the only one where it even requires a huge amount of tech skill to combo marth at high level, and that's only because marths have learned to smash DI upair. Regardless I feel like this is offtopic. THe real issue is that winning neutral and maintaining pressure are far more useful than marth's grab

Again, the amount of variance in player styles/player skill, the limited pool of usable talent (maybe 20 percent of people who play this game are high/top level), and the fact that people aren't really playing to the optimal strategy in every set (and other human errors)...I think all of these factors combine to say that we can't just look at results and say, "This is what it must be."

There are sufficient players to expand marth's tiny variance of styles. Pressuring with nair to catch jumps out of shield like PPu does is not new. I've seen 2 marths that play like that in the last year. You can vary how you pressure and you can vary how you camp. For marth that tends to be varying within 2-3 decent options.

when we have hundreds of matches that people can just sit down and analyze the tiny 4-5 decent options marth has in various situations it should be easy to see after watching 40+ videos of marth-falco why he has issues.

The real reason people don't see this is they want to believe this game is nice and balanced and even, just like in brood war, where somehow a sudden shift from even win rates to 80% plus in terranvszerg after switching to one build was just "flash being an amazing god tier player" rather than an obvious imbalance due to changes in the way the game was played. That is until everyone else started duplicating his strategy and it suddenly became, 'maybe terran is a little good vs zerg.'


A lot of SWF tend to take theorycrafting into their own hands, I suppose, but I don't agree with letting results alone dictate how good a character is, for the reasons above and more.


M2K has had a fair number of close Marth/Falco sets, but he says it himself that he "gets emo" when playing against them at times, and that influences his performance (look at Zenith 2012 GFs, set 2, game 5, for example). Is it hard to believe that a player can just be uncomfortable in a matchup?

PP 3 stocks him when he's playing well and still 1 or 2 stocks him when PP plays horrendous and gives him free grabs....the difference is you don't spend the hours watching m2k's vids in slow mo. M2k isn't off, he isn't gettting emo and losing from nerves. He's losing cause falco is good. God tier goodl Those matches where he feels off come from a very specific reason; you get Freaking pinned in shield by a laser and any move you do out of shield if not a perfect read on how and when falco chooses to come in results in you getting wrecked. When your only response for several stocks of a match is to determine how you're going to play from stun and the stun from laser consistently results in falco breaking your spacing and reaching a spot from which you cannot react but must read. As long as marth continues to be forced to commit, he will continue to lose to falco. Maybe not every set, but there will never be marth dominance vs falco again unless the falcos just suddenly decide to retire


How hard is it to believe that you can simply be outplayed? You're assuming that M2K knows everything that will ever need to be known about Marth, just because he's a top player who has used him for so long, and that all he says about Marth should be taken 100% at face value. Don't misunderstand me, M2K is without a doubt extremely knowledgeable when it comes to Marth, but human beings make mistakes, errors in judgement, and come to revise these as they learn. Don't throw out that possibility.

I don't disagree with this statement; i just think it's utter bull**** to discuss and design tier lists based on some theoretical possiblities that may exist somewhere that no one can even propose. What kind of useful strategies have we seen promoted instead: A. just fail to commit, if marth has stage control he will win eventually (umbreon) and B. fsmash more. Hmm, all these revolutionary ideas from the marth boards. The last revolutionary idea was leffen's introduction of dash back powershielding, but most of the marths can't even do that consistently enough to realize that this doesn't deal with falco unless you can do standing powershielding as well.


Can you name tournament sets that high level Marths have dropped to mid level Sheiks?
Tai and someone else. probably pewpewu? don't remember. It's not really relevant though cause at top level marths don't try the matchup. anyway, i'm biased, PP's matches vs redd and chillindude's sheik in tourney are enough to demonstrate the issues marth has, if not, m2k vs over, or m2k's other recent match he lost to a sheik that i can't remember showcase that jumping around like an idiot gets you wrecked by people in the know. PP plays the matchup solidly, but 4 stocks his non-top level opponent with falco, while getting taken to last match vs redd. And no, he wasn't off; he played like a god, literally the best I have ever seen any marth play vs sheik in history and i've been watching marth vids a long time. It's a pity that the rest of you have not seen even half as many sets of PP's marth in tourney because he tends to only pull it out at locals and then not get recorded. m2k, PP, and tai have issues with the matchup, and PewpewU doesn't because he doesn't actually get stuck with high level sheiks in his bracket at majors somehow


It isn't unreasonable (it actually follows reason), but don't take them as they come.



I agree with most of this. But if it's within human capabilities (I'm tired of people saying that Fox is placed where he is because of TAS expectations when that CLEARLY isn't the case), should the difficulty of the technique be counted as a character weakness? I'm not really answering the point you make in this paragraph, but one you had in your other post.

I'm just trying to understand/explain/perhaps enlighten. Tell me if my interpretations of your statements are off-base.[/COLLAPSE]

Anyway, I would have less issues with people giving their opinion as authority if they had actually played marth.

arguing for viability on something you haven't tried has to be the height of stupidity.

That and I'm tired of single sets being used to argue viability of a char without even mentioning anything revolutionary done in the set because there was nothing revolutionary or new, just typical marth variance where if he gets a read right he gets lots of pretty combos. Then the several years of marth smackdown get conveniently forgotten.

 

[Beat!]

wusguuuuuuuuuuud

You did much better with Marth vs Armada than I thought you would. Your Marth is awesome and inspiring. Good ****.

 

[knightpraetor]

i actually thought PP would win after the first set, but PP, don't you think falco would do better than marth vs peach on dreamland? Or were you worried that switching chars would throw you off too much?

edit: also sorry for cluttering the thread. This thread helps me relieve my rage lol. I wonder why IB, niko, and m2k didn't rage more about marth before quitting/switching chars. IB as far as I know just never bothered to rage against the numerous hours he wasted pouring into marth. am I the only one who is bothered that he stupidly believed the talk about marth having even matchups practically across the board (you can always find someone to say a matchup is even if you want to believe) and wasted two years of his life. Looking back, i wonder how i ever believed marth could be underrated and potentially top 3.

i feel morally obligated to help marths quit this character, but i also feel obligated to help, so when diakanos and players who are actually putting in the work to get good ask questions, i try to answer honestly. Still think they would be better off switching. What we should do instead, is all switch to peach, then when there are so many peaches that falcos cannot survive, some of us can switch back to playing marth. except sheik will still be around, but then we all move to europe and blammo, marth heaven, suddenly only light foxes, peach, falcons, and sheik's little sister to deal with

where did HBK go? i had a little faith that he would get up to top 20 level but he disappeared

 

[Jolteon]

People giving Peepee advice in an "Ask Peepee" thread.

 

[Diakonos]

i actually thought PP would win after the first set, but PP, don't you think falco would do better than marth vs peach on dreamland? Or were you worried that switching chars would throw you off too much?

edit: also sorry for cluttering the thread. This thread helps me relieve my rage lol. I wonder why IB, niko, and m2k didn't rage more about marth before quitting/switching chars. IB as far as I know just never bothered to rage against the numerous hours he wasted pouring into marth. am I the only one who is bothered that he stupidly believed the talk about marth having even matchups practically across the board (you can always find someone to say a matchup is even if you want to believe) and wasted two years of his life. Looking back, i wonder how i ever believed marth could be underrated and potentially top 3.

i feel morally obligated to help marths quit this character, but i also feel obligated to help, so when diakanos and players who are actually putting in the work to get good ask questions, i try to answer honestly. Still think they would be better off switching. What we should do instead, is all switch to peach, then when there are so many peaches that falcos cannot survive, some of us can switch back to playing marth. except sheik will still be around, but then we all move to europe and blammo, marth heaven, suddenly only light foxes, peach, falcons, and sheik's little sister to deal with

where did HBK go? i had a little faith that he would get up to top 20 level but he disappeared

I share much of your pessimism, but I think that Marth can do "well" as in top 13 at a tournament like Apex if you really push him. I feel like you are not rewarded as well as if you played Falco at that same level, but what can you do?

Years of Marths getting owned shouldn't be ignored-- you're right. But with PP, PPU, and M2K showing us that Marth can compete, at least in certain matchups, it would be wrong to consider him a waste of time. IB did not waste two years of his life playing Marth. He performed very well during that time and was recognized for his ability with his character. I played him this weekend--his Marth is still good! My Flaco is 2gud at dittos, so we started playing Marth dittos instead ;D

BTW, I thought PP's Marth was amazing, but I think Armada wasn't playing the matchup as well as he normally does. He hardly pulled turnips (I know, PP made it hard, but still) in that first set, and that led to Peach forcibly approaching a patient Marth. When this changed in the second set, along with Armada's remembering that dash attack is a good move, I think I saw more of what I expected. Marth doesn't lose to Peach, but he doesn't have a big advantage over her. I'm pretty sure of that.

 

[MT_]

i actually thought PP would win after the first set, but PP, don't you think falco would do better than marth vs peach on dreamland? Or were you worried that switching chars would throw you off too much?

edit: also sorry for cluttering the thread. This thread helps me relieve my rage lol. I wonder why IB, niko, and m2k didn't rage more about marth before quitting/switching chars. IB as far as I know just never bothered to rage against the numerous hours he wasted pouring into marth. am I the only one who is bothered that he stupidly believed the talk about marth having even matchups practically across the board (you can always find someone to say a matchup is even if you want to believe) and wasted two years of his life. Looking back, i wonder how i ever believed marth could be underrated and potentially top 3.

i feel morally obligated to help marths quit this character, but i also feel obligated to help, so when diakanos and players who are actually putting in the work to get good ask questions, i try to answer honestly. Still think they would be better off switching. What we should do instead, is all switch to peach, then when there are so many peaches that falcos cannot survive, some of us can switch back to playing marth. except sheik will still be around, but then we all move to europe and blammo, marth heaven, suddenly only light foxes, peach, falcons, and sheik's little sister to deal with

where did HBK go? i had a little faith that he would get up to top 20 level but he disappeared

No one cares if you're going to quit Marth but don't come into this thread full of dedicated Marth mains who are trying to push our character to the next level and try to reaffirm your conclusions that Marth sucks and isn't viable. You're condescending as **** ("everyone that disagrees with me either sucks or doesn't even play Marth!") and reading your posts is actually quite annoying. Even if you are correct and Marth DOES suck, it's like you assume that everyone chooses to play characters strictly to increase their chances of winning, not because, I dunno, maybe they enjoy playing certain characters? Or maybe they enjoy the challenge that using Marth brings and have pride for when they win with him.

Anyways I am not commenting on whether Marth sucks or not, but it's seriously annoying to read your whining (in hindsight I should have just skipped over your posts but occasionally you post good things and I don't want to miss that kind of information).

 

[Acryte]

The only big things PP gave up vs armada... well there were a few times he hit with fair near ledge and could have carried it with another repetition of fair or nair to the edge for a ken combo, and twice I remember he hit the first fair off edge and just had to jump into dair but opted for another fair instead of the guaranteed KO.

The other thing was fsmash, and I'm not talking about spamming it or anything or even trying to combo into it since based off DI that can be a risk, those are all choices of playstyle. I'm talking about the guaranteeds. PP did an amazing job of forcing Armada to airdodge to ledge and recover stage. This primarily came from his perfect threat by positioning. It led to many, many grabs (which is great) but when you threaten you're planning to react based off of what they do. You cover options, and if they pass on them you are prepared for the next couple options, until they only have one and then you cover that if it comes to it. The idea in that situation is you are removing options by threat and simultaneously plotting to combat the option they take. PP was looking for the airdodges on stage but he went for grab instead of a tippered Fsmash/Ftilt. Also Ftilt's lower knockback angle should be considered when knocking peach out because it's has more gimp potential when they start recovering at a lower angle aready, you probably won't get a dair but threatening options could lead to edgehog kills more frequently. My 2 cents.

I feel like PP concentrated entirely on controlling peach in the matchup (which was excellent) and that he played it the right way, he just needed a little more kill opportunity off fair/nair, and to take any free fsmashes Armada gives him. And maybe more use of Ftilt followups. But yea, PP your play was excellent, you just need a couple tweaks to the formula and Armada might have to find a secondary for your secondary LOL

 

[Deleted member]

there's so much misinformation in here and uninformed interpretations. interpretations are good because at least you're thinking about the game though. misinformation is...less good.

i'll try to sum this up briefly:

1. scumbag pennsylvania fox players

2. you guys should read my posts more

3. cactuar is apparently the best coach ever by sitting there and laughing

4. kevin's sets vs armada were both experimental and successful

that's really all you need to know. kevin will post his obligatory "i'll beat armada next time" or some other **** to look cool to his fan nerds.

edit: arc i told you marth sucks in teams. you did pretty good for outplaying his badness though.

 

[clowsui]

are tai and taj joining the circle too?

 

[AustinRC]

Dear Umbreon,

Thank you for the semi compliment, but do not tell me my character can't perform well in teams when he clearly can. PewpewU did well enough with him too. I guess its a little arbitrary to argue this point but PewpewU and I will prove you dead wrong soon enough. It was nice hearing your personal opinion though!

 

[knightpraetor]

yeah i apologize mt. i will try to avoid going off on rants in the future. it's hard though when people consistently use logic if only you guys actually knew how to play marth you'd realize he was secretly god tier. I will admit I am condescending, but the other side is just as much so. At least I played the character first

 

[Bl@ckChris]

KP quit being a punk lol. your character is far better than ganon and people still waste tons of time on him. relax.

diakonos, thanks for your background talk during my set with sung. it means more to me than you realize, and you actually kept me calm enough to win, although my execution lacked in the end.

texas marths are cool.

this character looks fun.

 

[knightpraetor]

marth is the most fun character, hands down. I still miss playing him at times.

also, armada not pulling turnips is not surprising. Marth can easily hit a range where he can camp well enough to block turnip pulls. However, you're correct that armada got baited into approaching a lot in the first set, while marth has no projectile, so he is under no real obligation to do so anyway

ok i'm done whining. I won't do that again on the boards again. Promise.

2013 Year of the Marth gogogo

 

[Dr Peepee]

"Alright you convinced me Marth is a good character."

-Mew2king

 

[knightpraetor]

i hope that means m2k will start going marth more

 

[Diakonos]

diakonos, thanks for your background talk during my set with sung. it means more to me than you realize, and you actually kept me calm enough to win, although my execution lacked in the end.

this character looks fun.

No problem, man. You definitely could have pulled it through, since you were able to swing back a stock each time he combo'd/gimped you. I wish you all the best in your future sets!

marth is the most fun character, hands down. I still miss playing him at times.

also, armada not pulling turnips is not surprising. Marth can easily hit a range where he can camp well enough to block turnip pulls. However, you're correct that armada got baited into approaching a lot in the first set, while marth has no projectile, so he is under no real obligation to do so anyway

ok i'm done whining. I won't do that again on the boards again. Promise.

2013 Year of the Marth gogogo

Attaboy. I'm not so sure about the turnips not being useful thing; it seems to me that the very presence of the turnip means that Marth has to approach or else be boring forever and hope that the Peach doesn't somehow use the turnips to catch him off guard. That's how most of me vs. Vwins went, at least, and IIRC when Armada pulled out more turnips the neutral dynamic changed considerably in that second set.

gomarth

 

[SUNG666]

KP quit being a punk lol. your character is far better than ganon and people still waste tons of time on him. relax.

diakonos, thanks for your background talk during my set with sung. it means more to me than you realize, and you actually kept me calm enough to win, although my execution lacked in the end.

texas marths are cool.

this character looks fun.

I love marth so I stalk this forum :] (TX marths are pretty sick)

Yea yea first match of the day execution haha

I didn't see the set but I thought for sure I would be playing you in losers and not smurfy. Speaking of losers, it turns out that losers finals were supposed to play out diakonos, it was only brawl pools that weren't supposed to play it out

That was a beautiful grand finals set PP, brought tears to my eyes

 

[MT_]

That was a beautiful grand finals set PP, brought tears to my eyes

LOL I bet you weren't even watching you noob playing friendlies all throughout top 8. Unless you watched the recording on YouTube. Then nevermind.

 

[strawhats]

"Alright you convinced me Marth is a good character."

-Mew2king

Confirmation that there is a God.

PP I must say, your marth brought the goods and then some...keep that pimp hand strong man! (Your neutral game with marth is ****ing nasty)

The Marth shall rise again!

 

[Beat!]

"Alright you convinced me Marth is a good character."

-Mew2king

Are you serious?

Was he serious?

Am I serious?

Why so serious?

ahdjskakenvcbshe

Marthhhhh

2013 will indeed be Year of the Marth.

 

[Dr Peepee]

Daaamn PP that was one hell of a show. What happened to side-b-->utilt being illegitimate ?

I honestly was surprised when that worked LMAO

PPs edgeguarding made me sad, going out there and back airing peach is bleh. Back end of up air is much easier to hit if you know bair isnt going to kill, and you can jab peach to bait airdodges, and stuff. I'm 100 percent sure PP would have won with better edgeguarding. Might have won easily. Either way awesome stuff.

Back part of Uair seems like it would take a while to hit....but then I started waiting and just grabbed/threw him again anyway.

I was getting tired that's why I kept going out there. I just need to practice Marth(vs Peach) more is all!

lol THIS so much.


Don't get discouraged, PP. This has only just begun. I noticed a couple things you kept doing that weren't working out that well, so I'm sure you have a whole book of things you can tweak and take out Amanda next time.

I will say one thing I think that specifically hurt you was you getting a little too hype during matches (and I'm sure others have said similar stuff, so hopefully you don't take it personally). I've always liked that your desire to win is > your desire to "showboat", and I think that's the element Mango has that costs him important sets that you otherwise win (suicide dair vs. M2K in winner's, for example). I think you may have been able to stave off Amanda's adaption better if you were more focused on the match than fist pumping to the crowd (that said, it WAS pretty badass... lol @ making the utilt motion with your arm!). Definitely look forward to next time you get to play him. /$0.02

Cactuar for Most Valuable Coach? Or should that go to Inui... You were just grinning like crazy the entire first set of GFs. lol If Amanda had turned to you mid game, pretty sure all he would have seen was:

**

got tired. needed to have fun to keep energy. worked out because lolllll hype

might mean-mug next time. I'm not sure yet.

PP, I remember there being a few instances where you should have retreated back to the ledge after a LH fair instead of kind of trying to force your way onstage. You started later mixing it up with nair/uair (which do a better job of getting the opponent out of the way so that you can take back the stage), though.

Watching your marth if GFs was so hype. Everyone in my apartment was screaming.

Good to see you so happy during the set, too. Dat grin

Yeah I had to time/space some Fairs better or just be trickier. I kept looking to Cactuar after I died and said "man I shouldn't have Fair'd" then just laughed LOLLLL

lol no. tell you what, if PP places top 10 at a tourney going all marth, I will start trying questionable stuff like that again.

however, it is nice to see PP's marth doing so well. He shouldn't have gone marth on dreamland though.

Why do I have to go all Marth LOL I'll MM and stuff to prove he's amazing but I just can't start using him to appease everyone. You either like him and wanna do your thing or you don't. Don't wait for me to do something first when you could just outplay people your level with Marth or whoever you're using and beat them anyway.

Damn PP that set was amazing. Switching to secondary in GFs? Super hype. Armada knows he has some competition now. The only thing that I was wondering is why did you only do uthrows?

Because Uthrow gives me better followups.

lmao @ this thread

sucks to be you kev LOL

I love Marth.

Oh God, now people are going to tell me that I have no excuse to say Marth sucks. Well, he does. Insofar as you can place only 13th by going Marth only. The other top placing Marths need a Sheik or Falco to help get them that far.

I am partially kidding. Kind of. I don't know, PP's Marth gave me mixed feelings.



wut

Marth doesn't suck. I plan on testing this more.

Scumbag PP. Marth forum blows up with lengthy posts in response to M2K and PP's Marth play at Apex, PP responds with "wusguuuuuuuuuuud"

Scumbag Cactus, makes Marth thread then doesn't even make troll posts anymore *pompom* <3

You did much better with Marth vs Armada than I thought you would. Your Marth is awesome and inspiring. Good ****.

yeuhhhhh <3

i actually thought PP would win after the first set, but PP, don't you think falco would do better than marth vs peach on dreamland? Or were you worried that switching chars would throw you off too much?

Yeah ran outta gas johns(bad preparation/sleeping). It was whatever I coulda won so I just will next time no biggie.

My Falco was playing too badly to win on DL even if I probly would've preferred Falco there if both characters were good. Like my Falco....was BOOOOOTYYYYY

there's so much misinformation in here and uninformed interpretations. interpretations are good because at least you're thinking about the game though. misinformation is...less good.

i'll try to sum this up briefly:

1. scumbag pennsylvania fox players

2. you guys should read my posts more

3. cactuar is apparently the best coach ever by sitting there and laughing

4. kevin's sets vs armada were both experimental and successful

that's really all you need to know. kevin will post his obligatory "i'll beat armada next time" or some other **** to look cool to his fan nerds.

edit: arc i told you marth sucks in teams. you did pretty good for outplaying his badness though.

ye

marth's kinda cool in teams doe

Are you serious?

Was he serious?

Am I serious?

Why so serious?

ahdjskakenvcbshe

Marthhhhh

2013 will indeed be Year of the Marth.

he said that to me on stage after the tourney

YEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE

 

[SUNG666]

LOL I bet you weren't even watching you noob playing friendlies all throughout top 8. Unless you watched the recording on YouTube. Then nevermind.

Nah I played friendlies until M2K v PP came on

 

[Bob Money]

PP:
I see what you mean about it up air taking too long to come out , but if peach is in the up air arc behind/above you(huge arc) she's almost guaranteed to get tipper upaired which has potential KO depending on her height and DI. It's guaranteed damage and she's still above you.

The thing is peach has to come down from her float sometime right, why not just wait for the float to end>jab> something something

Know you said you were getting tired, I can only imagine the mental strength it requires to play Armada for that long, insane.

Great set! I was super impressed by your reactions to Armada's DI after your forward bs. You're soo good!

I know you'll destroy him next time as your marth peach matchup keeps evolving

 

[Dr Peepee]

PP:
I see what you mean about it up air taking too long to come out , but if peach is in the up air arc behind/above you(huge arc) she's almost guaranteed to get tipper upaired which has potential KO depending on her height and DI. It's guaranteed damage and she's still above you.

The thing is peach has to come down from her float sometime right, why not just wait for the float to end>jab> something something

Know you said you were getting tired, I can only imagine the mental strength it requires to play Armada for that long, insane.

Great set! I was super impressed by your reactions to Armada's DI after your forward bs. You're soo good!

I know you'll destroy him next time as your marth peach matchup keeps evolving

If it's upper %s I'd rather just jab or other ground move instead of Uair if I had to pick a move lol but maybe at some combo %s Uair could be cool. Thanks I'll fiddle with it.

And I got tired partially because of AR/Peach and partially because I just didn't prepare well enough/sleep well enough(crewz.) I'll take my fair share of the blame for that.

And thanks, I plan on breaking both Falco and Marth vs Peach for next time! =)

 

[Strong Badam]

i love marth!!

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

i love marth!!

Drop the monkey. Pick-up the blade.

 

[holymarth007]

100 people are gonna switch to marth..... Calling it now.

Oh please, you and Dr.PP are forgetting who the OG Carolina Marth truly is.

I'M NOT EVEN AFRAID OF YOU DR.PP COME ON BRING IT, YOU'RE NOT SO TOUGH, YOU KNOW, I'LL MONEY MATCH YOU FOR YOUR SHOES AND WHEN I BEAT YOU I'LL TAKE YOUR SOCKS INSTEAD, BLISTERS SON, BLISTERS

P.S I am so intimidating

 

[AustinRC]

You are right, I didn't mean to sleep on ya. Respect!

 

[holymarth007]

You are right, I didn't mean to sleep on ya. Respect!

Lies money match me now best 8/14 coin battle onett charizard only rock smash w/ Lt.Surge impressions

 

[Zoler]

PP you have a decent marth

 

[Tee ay eye]

are tai and taj joining the circle too?

what circle

 

[Bones0]

The circle... of jerks.