Important Carefully Ask PPMD about the Tiara Guy

[Mahie]

I don't like staying close to Peach too much, but my approach to the MU is usually powershield air turnips and deny her the float game, and focus all of my attention to DDing and baiting the dash attacks, once they feel like that's their only approach tool, and shield grabbing those into juggles.

 

[Dr Peepee]

Weaving in and out of dash attack range still denies turnip pulling with solid reactions iirc.

 

[Bones0]

When do you dtilt her?

 

[Deleted member]

When do you dtilt her?

when she sticks her hand up with an umbrella in it.

 

[odinNJ]

^^

also see: when do you shamelessly roll and watch peach float helplessly against the stage within grab range of the ledge

 

[Dr Peepee]

Dtilt is good when approaching/zoning her and also when she pulls a turnip.

You don't have to move forward when you Dtilt since Peach can't really beat the move without massive foresight lol. I just usually do it when I dtilt because I'm more or less confident she won't attack/dodge well enough if I do use it.

 

[odinNJ]

Also it's hard for people to expect when Marth can interrupt the dtilt with an Utilt or something that covers the spot that he left open (or inadvertently led peach into).
Thus dtilt can seemingly invite peach to float herself over to you but then when you cancel it with an Utilt and swat her into a bad position she thinks twice about attempting to punish it.

 

[V]

Can somebody give me a match up synopsis of the Marth ditto? I have a $20 Bo5 MM with another Marth and I don't know many specifics about the match up yet. There isn't any information in the current match up thread.

 

[Deleted member]

Can somebody give me a match up synopsis of the Marth ditto? I have a $20 Bo5 MM with another Marth and I don't know many specifics about the match up yet. There isn't any information in the current match up thread.

[1:19 AM] ShroudedOne: I was tempted to type "DD, uthrow, combo, edgeguard, repeat"

He forgot "if you start losing, dashdance better"

 

[Dr Peepee]

CC him, DD/WD better than him, swinging first is pretty dangerous if it's not Dtilt

in addition to that other stuff Umbreon said

 

[ShroudedOne]

LOL

Umbreon is rubbing off on me. I'm not sure what to think about this.

 

[Deleted member]

CC him, DD/WD better than him, swinging first is pretty dangerous if it's not Dtilt

in addition to that other stuff Umbreon said

you're like santa claus, beard and everything.

 

[V]

Thanks guys. The only recent video I've seen is of M2K vs Arc. Are there any other good video examples that are less than 2 years old?

 

[Dr Peepee]

whatever umbreon I'm tryna be nice

you and m2k need to stop callin me that LMAO

 

[Bones0]

Thanks guys. The only recent video I've seen is of M2K vs Arc. Are there any other good video examples that are less than 2 years old?

M2K vs. PP at Zenith 2012 was pretty good. PP went Marth on M2K's FD counterpick in both GF sets, I believe (definitely not WF).

One specific piece of advice I would offer is that DI is super important in this matchup. Missing DIs on fthrows gets you tipped and killed a lot earlier, and DIing in will lead to avoidable fair chains, Ken combos, or fair to up-B combos. That was actually at least a small reason why PP lost to M2K because he DIed in on like 4-5 combos that led to stock losses. Tipping all of your moves is also important because hitting with the weak part will often let your opponent just aerial right after you hit them, and it can happen even if you tip if they were at low %s.

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

whatever umbreon I'm tryna be nice

you and m2k need to stop callin me that LMAO

Dr. Santa "Peepee" Claus?

 

[Kadano]

Does anyone have example videos or can tell me how to play against Pikachu, Peach, Mario/Doc and Luigi? Playing these matchups like the spacies matchup doesn't work for me at all.

Also, what do you think about Ken's thesis "Pikachu/Marth is 70/30"? Watching Axe vs PewPewU, I couldn't find anything that PewPewU did blatantly wrong, his character just seemed outsped. So I think Ken might be right.

 

[AustinRC]

As Marth against characters that cant be chain grabbed just upthrow. Up throw ***** so much it's dumb. Yes Pikachu is fast and it can be difficult but it's no more difficult than Fox or Falcon. Marth might not get as much off of throws as he does against other characters but it's still not too bad. I'm talking strictly character vs character not player vs player. However to completely contradict myself here I think that if PewpewU had more experience against Pikachu it would have went a lot better for him. I'm not sure how much experience he has vs pikachu but sometimes it seemed like he was respecting Axe too much idk just my opinion.

 

[Tee ay eye]

uthrow is good against pikachu

 

[Bones0]

As Marth against characters that cant be chain grabbed just upthrow.

As opposed to characters that CAN be chain grabbed?

 

[Diakonos]

So who is the Marth authority vs. Falcon? Can anyone give me any tips? I fully expect to be arped by Hax, but I would like to at least give him a good match. I recall doing well against him with Fox back in 2010, but I kinda want to stick to Marth if I can.

Also, any tips vs. Sheik, or favourite videos that I should be looking at? Thanks for your help, guys.

 

[Cactuar]

Who is the Marth authority vs Falcon...

 

[Yodery]

**** my ***** based PP, please!

 

[Kadano]

So who is the Marth authority vs. Falcon? Can anyone give me any tips? I fully expect to be arped by Hax, but I would like to at least give him a good match. I recall doing well against him with Fox back in 2010, but I kinda want to stick to Marth if I can.

Also, any tips vs. Sheik, or favourite videos that I should be looking at? Thanks for your help, guys.

Falcon: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p5oaMh07TfI
You want to take his momentum and ground away. CC his nairs and jabs, intercept him when he starts jumping (before his hitbox comes out) with ftilt, uptilt or side-b. Side-b especially when he wants to do something out of shield. Spaced dtilts are always good, too. When edgeguarding, use lots of nairs if he goes high, they are safe.

Sheik: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C49T1x-3uB0

 

[Diakonos]

Falcon: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p5oaMh07TfI
You want to take his momentum and ground away. CC his nairs and jabs, intercept him when he starts jumping (before his hitbox comes out) with ftilt, uptilt or side-b. Side-b especially when he wants to do something out of shield. Spaced dtilts are always good, too. When edgeguarding, use lots of nairs if he goes high, they are safe.

Sheik: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C49T1x-3uB0

Great tips and links! I'll keep all of this in mind.

Anything else?

 

[MasterShake]

Don't let hax take you to yoshis story.

 

[clowsui]

Great tips and links! I'll keep all of this in mind.

Anything else?

if there's one phrase/idea that describes the falcon matchup, it's "pin him down"

falcon vs marth is a dumb matchup because while falcon autocombos marth, if marth camps the balls off falcon and plays to his advantages at neutral the falcon (FOR THE MOST PART) relies on baiting marth as his lack of effective range sucks massive balls vs your disjoints and your ability to control the terms of engagement. your strategy should principally be based on controlling his movement and jump points with changes in your own movement (mostly DD, mix in WDs and dash cancels to change the starting point/) combined with dtilt.

so then you're going to say "well, falcon can jump over dtilt!"

and then i tell you that you're a marth player and you should know what happens when people jump at you: you destroy them.

the matchup of course isn't this linear as falcon can play baiting game and also take risks that have a decent risk/reward ratio but this is at the very least how the neutral game should go, which comprises about 50-60% of the best falcon vs marth matches. it's actually a boring matchup when it comes down to it.

 

[Mahie]

Yeah I feel like it comes down to whomever approaches the least in Marth Falcon.

Couple things I remember : Uthrow Utilt around 40%
Uthrow Fsmash without moving around 80%, even on no DI, albeit an uair before is better.


Dash dance a lot, keep it as tight as possible, Falcon has speed so you just want to deny him a small part of the stage and make sure he can't approach you there, while still moving of course, rather than running around trying to outrun him, which you won't be able to do.

When you get a hit in, focus as much as possible, you need to compensate for Falcon's combos, keep it going, techchase a lot, throw him out, be patient in edgeguards, as long as you throw him out again you're fine.

Don't hesitate to hold the ledge and go for reverse fair and regrab the ledge if they come from underneath. If they don't you can waveland on stage then dash off fair, or variations of these.

 

[knightpraetor]

in my opinion actually approaching him with aerials is too risky, but you can dash approach a bit and do aerials with slight fadeback (especially AC nair) and remain safe, he can obviously dashdance around it but it's hard for him and even if he does you aren't actually in lag (4 frames is hardly real lag in this game unless your opponent has a shine).

dtilt is good, fade out nair beats his aerial approaches, once he runs out of space sh into fairs and the like becomes really good. if you're on FD stick to a heavy ground game though as jumping invites getting grabbed even if you're really good at mixin up your options after the aerial you're still going to be getting less than he will get if he manages to grab you once.

PAL players are so fancy with their edgeguards

 

[Kadano]

The most basic and most important thing: Don't take guesses. Don't go for an fsmash unless you are completely sure it connects and doesn't get punished. Falcon intimidates Marth by dashdancing where Marth can't reach him. Don't take this bait and approach blindly, instead run up and do something to bait his approach, like AC nair, dtilt or retreating / neutral late fair. Those attacks have little lag so you can retreat safely and not get punished, but you'll have him close so you can start something.
Unless you're close to the ledge, you want to upthrow Falcon at any percent above 30. Uptilt or, if he's DIing outside of uptilt range, go for a tipper fair / double fair / fair-uair and combo from there.
AC nair to dash away, side-b or dtilt is excellent for pressure.
Edgeguard with fair to rejump up-b if he's trying to sweetspot. Just watch the video and take notes, PewPewU is doing incredibly effective things in this set I've never seen before.

 

[Mahie]

PAL players are so fancy with their edgeguards

Yeah gotta make up for the spike. That being said, can they tech the dair if they're riding the wall ? in which case close fair might be a better choice, especially when you can just get the ledge again right away.

 

[Deleted member]

remember to convert your first hit game into an optimal punish. this sounds dead obvious but it's particularly true against falcon. any good hit falcon gets can be converted into upairs. any MU where falcon can just upair the other character all day is basically good for him. if he starts getting you with really basic **** like upthrow > upair > something obvious then you're going to spend the whole match struggling to match his offensive output. if you don't lose to upairs, you can generally just trade with him and come out ahead with better range.

charles: i'm pretty sure it's ken right?

edit: you should absolutely play hax at YS if you get the chance outside of bracket. it'll be the best practice you can get, his platform game is fantastic.

 

[Diakonos]

Noted, guys! Thanks for this. I'm rushing before having to leave for New Jersey later today, so I'll respond in a bit more detail later.

 

[knightpraetor]

pretty sure the angles they can tech the spike from your fair would also send them into the wall and be easier to tech. and the other angles they couldn't touch the wall. PAL players have it hard

 

[Mahie]

Nah if you hit with fair they won't be able to tech at all, I do that at lower %s, which is when they get to ride the wall usually. Unless you hit with tipper fair, then yeah.

 

[knightpraetor]

not sure what you're referring to..if you're doing drop off fair from the ledge and they come up hogging the ledge you hit them into the ledge..are you referring to something else?

 

[Van.]

i love how kp doesnt even play this char anymore but he still haunts these boards with his breezy cynicism

really i love it

 

[Mahone]

yo kp u should change ur avatar to this

 

[ShroudedOne]

It's funny cause I've been considering switching to Marth. KP and I are keeping the balance in check.

 

[Bones0]

yo kp u should change ur avatar to this

Marth's grab game is too good.