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Effff backspacei will grant the lasers are difficult to space properly; there is a reason most falcos aren't as broken as you. but what combos in this game do you consider difficult? I guess I can grant falco has some combos that are harder than marths if you can consider wavelanding a difficult technique (which i guess relatively it is), but i don't really think combos are that difficult to execute in general. it's memorizing the various percents and DI responses that affects consistency the most. Fox doesn't have hard combos that are commonly used in tourney. I guess if everyone did that raynex combo that was posted the other day on the boards then maybe..but realistically, most of the combos in this game aren't that hard.
When i think of difficult combos with marth, i can't think of any on fox/falco..it's only when i start getting into weird weight classes where i need char specific knowledge that it starts to matter. even then...i don't think any of them are that bothersome anymore.
for marth what makes things difficult is when the optimal combo at a certain percent is A, but with the platform on pokemon stadium being the proper lengh to nair them onto it you should suddenly do B. But this kind of thing is probably true for everyone to some extent. I don't usually see people dropping combos at high level due to missed inputs; it's usually them attempting something suboptimal or something that would have worked at another percent. When you're in an intense match sometimes you can't find time to check the percent meter till it's too late.
i guess what i'm saying is that when i was saying peach had easier inputs, it wasn't so much the combos being easier to execute that bothered me. I just like that i don't need to look at a percent and judge between the 6 different options i take at different percents; 3 is a lot more manageable
PP play marth at apex some, use him to beat armada..then i'll feel better about his viability. The problem is no one good is actually willing to use him. If you say marth is good and don't play him while m2k says marth is not that good and doesn't play him, whose word is going to carry more weight? My last memory of your marth in tourney is you barely 3-2ing chillin or redd or something.
at the very least do some MM against some respectable players that are actually near your level. A legit set vs KK would be superhype, as would one vs westballz or mango's falco.
yeMarths need to master pivot fsmash so that they can finish all of their combos with tipper fsmash at any spacing. Arc knows what's up.
M2K grabbed or hit a CPU of varying levels and %s and watched what they did. That's what I wanna do. It's a great strategy that has led me to come up with combo ideas as Falco(on a lvl 1 FD Fox) and I'm sure it works amazingly for Marth on everyone.I do wonder what effective way there is to maximize your punishes on one's own. I suppose the idea of shadowboxing might work? While the CPU cannot mix-up its jumping out of Uthrow if they were sheik, or fast falling an aerial as a spacie in the middle of juggle, you could try to imagine it the places where it might happen.
saving link with this quote
Green Falco is because no one else played green falco in 09(zhu was blue then) and I thought he was cool, and blue Marth because of Azen and M2K was black and blue is a calming color which I feel like I personally need for my style of Marth play.pp plays green falco but blue marth. What's the story there?
LMAO at color thing.Green Falco IS blue Falco. #elementarymydearwatson
Yeah? How do you properly chaingrab into uair chains into tipper? Can you give some details? Do you mean uthrow w/ pivots until 30, tipper utilt (or just regrabs) into grab, then either tipper uair or soft uair into tipper? Is it guaranteed every time? How?And how does this help on tri-platform stages?
By the way, have there been any developments on how to punish fastfallers who just crouchcancel the utilt when they're above us on a platform? I mean, clearly we try to tip it, but even so...?
And, when comboing spacies up onto that top platform on YS/BF/FoD, is it best to waveland onto it and shield for the get-up attack? To wait below and try to hit an uair? To land on a side platform and go from there? To anticipate their wait and punish with a dair to continue the combo? To just fair them off and keep going? Taunt?
yeRegarding the CG thing, I think Leffen would be able to give a much more accurate description than me. He's the one who taught me. You want to really minimize utilt use, usually I only do one, just regrab uthrow if they DI away, and regrab or uair at mid% if they don't DI, and eventually uthrow uair fsmash tipper.
On FD it's like 0~90 guaranteed, and on other stages usually you just want to keep regrabbing until they end up on the platforms, or if you're on a platform already, you try to somehow make it end with the uair fsmash or just fsmash if they DI away from the stage.
Also from under a platform , uair --> DJ on the platform uair --> fsmash is a great , great tool. No need for fancy fair stuff when you can just do that and end the stock.
About CCing stuff though : They can't do that if they're still in their teching animation, so you need to make sure to aim during those last frames where they're vulnerable, because as soon as they go back to idle position then they will CC for sure, and then yeah it won't end up good.
Oh you can hit them earlier in the animation and be fine? NeeeaaaattttYea, I just did some stuff debug. If you get a spacie on a platform and attempt to Utilt, they can ASDI down and it will be enough to slam back into the platform. If they get the tech, then no follow-up on marth will be guaranteed since they can shield the hit. Otherwise, ASDI is not a problem since you can cover the whole platform with Utilt on any of there options from down. And Mahie said, you want to aim for the animation before they can crouch cancel/shield.
I tried this earlier, and so long as a spacie techs in place, then trying to waveland onto a platform after say an Uthrow gives you no advantage whatsoever.
I dunno. I'd say that Utilt is the best and only option Marth has to covering spacies on the platform reliably at the lowest percent range. A FH Uair/Dair does not work for combo off it at the lower percents. SH, then doing an Uair as you are falling is about as good as Utilt, but you could be attacked for get-up attack if you try SH on anything other than dreamland.
If you get the Utilt off, then it either puts them right back on the platform for another Utilt off a tech chase, or off it where you can grab or Fair/Uair/Nair as they get off. The only downside too is if they specifically plan to DI the Utilt just enough to platform cancel off the edge and Bair you in lag.
Either way, I think spacies have some sort of get-out for free method if on the platforms. So, I can see the point in getting them off it and into an edgeguard as soon as possible to capitalize on the hit.
this is how you do it right here, but that Falco shoulda edgecanceled
yeah, but it's more of a mixup imo. bair combos well and surprisingly doesn't have very bad lag.random thought: has anyone ever considered turning around and zoning with bair instead of fair? Could there possibly be some benefit to this?
but, marth can SH Bair into DJ shenanigans. that's cool.the main benefit to bair is that it starts low and ends high, which is nice when you want to cover the standard low approach to marth's fair (think like peach dash attack). however, there's a few problems with bair. one is that when it hits low, you don't actually have the same range as you do with fair, so the area you want to cover isn't really covered anyway. to compensate for it, you can fade your bair so you have less of a hole, but then you're even less likely to hit the opponent and you're giving up stage area to do it. since it's not particularly threatening, your opponent has no reason to not try to pin you. then in a straight comparison, marth can only do 1 SH bair instead of 2 fairs, so it's easier to play around, and then you can't really convert it into a grab either. you don't really want to FJ it either because marth loses a lot of control by getting far away from any ground. usually it ends up being that the best thing to do is to stick to fair and movement to play around low approaches.
She has 5 jumps, so the more she jumps the worse her position gets and the more likely she is to actually do something. the big thing at controlling her is keep yourself moving and count jumps. puff likes slowing you down since she's so slow. keep moving. keep her from crossing you up in the air if possible so she can't weave too much.can we talk about puff?
She's the only character that I don't really get what "bad position" means. Against everyone else I can just get below them and let gravity do its stuff, but against puff it's not so clear because she's phenomenal in the air. As a result I can't get a lot of mileage out of my neutral game wins.
This isn't necessarily just with marth, but you guys are actually discussing things here.
Pigeonholing yourself into one style of play is bad. Take risks sometimes especially if they lead to kills, but otherwise play kinda like what you're saying too. Doesn't have to be a one or the other type of thing. =)The thing is that it's not perfectly guaranteed. Maybe in some match ups at some percents. But I was speaking against a completely "safe" play style where the better positioning is always chosen over the kill opportunity.
I don't believe that you can keep them "in position" forever, or have it necessarily lead to a kill. I haven't seen a Marth that good, or opponents that predictable. There is a hole somewhere, albeit a small one, and the longer you keep trying to outposition them, the better chances that they'll hit it. And then Marth gets owned and you lost your opportunity. So, in general, yes, I will try to keep them in position, but if I see a pretty good chance to kill, I'll take the risk. Swatting them with fairs and uairs until 175 just doesn't cut it for me.
what if they stay away from the bair? the DJ could lead to a platform waveland or it could lead to more walling. not a staple tactic by any means, but a very interesting one with niche uses.you're going to use bair to wall someone out, and then when it finally works, you want to use that to lead into gimmicks? what are you, new?
add me to the skype chat:
I wasted 3 hrs designing combos this morning with peach. I find that with practice and experience you can visualize whether something will work or not and visualize options you cannot force the computer to do. Then you can go practice them with real people later. I even knew whether weak bair would link even though i can't freaking use the Cstick in training mode. You just recognize the spacing and the strength of the hit if you practice long enoughI do wonder what effective way there is to maximize your punishes on one's own. I suppose the idea of shadowboxing might work? While the CPU cannot mix-up its jumping out of Uthrow if they were sheik, or fast falling an aerial as a spacie in the middle of juggle, you could try to imagine it the places where it might happen.
if they stay away, you silently thank them to yourself because bair is pretty easy to exploit lolwhat if they stay away from the bair? the DJ could lead to a platform waveland or it could lead to more walling. not a staple tactic by any means, but a very interesting one with niche uses.
last time anything skype-related between us happened I was bird-feet-lol'd into oblivionif they stay away, you silently thank them to yourself because bair is pretty easy to exploit lol
however i like the transition into stage mobility.
why aren't you making fun of my skype name
[01:00] mycatgoesmow: you just want to do that thingbooo hisssssss
Here's where I think we disagree. I don't believe that you can actually successfully out-position them indefinitely. Marth is great when they're above, but I haven't seen it become an auto-combo to death, which is what you're implying ("they WILL die"). Each individual move might be 80% likely to succeed (rather generous, imo), but then you're relying on consecutive hits of 80% each; .80^x where x = number of hits needed before kill. If that Falco, let's say, happens to hit you with something like a dair, you're going to get *****, as we all agree. And Falco will usually convert into something much more hurtful than Marth's weak swats. So, if I can do a move at midpercentages that has a 60-75% (for example) chance of killing, I will do it, because the other option is not guaranteed.that's the point. don't get me wrong, i get what you're saying, but you have made a false dichotomy for yourself in this instance: successfully outpositioning the opponent with marth means that they die lol. it will take them a long *** time maybe and you're going to need to be consistent etc, but make no mistake: they WILL die.
marth is a character with enough holes in his game such that the 60-75% chance for a kill or w/e from a suboptimal decision is not good enough. because on the instance that you fail in making that risk or w/e (25-40% chance according to you), you lose a whole stock at worst or forfeit your advantage completely at best.
on the other hand, if you choose to keep positioning throughout and go for things that are highly likely to succeed (80-90% chance), the opponent dies (and rather easily at that) from making a mistake because marth's ****ing stupid. hell, even if you mess up, they are in a terrible terrible position and might as well have died in any case because marth's ****ing stupid.
I'm with Umbreon and PP on this. Marth's grab on the edge just isn't as good as it used to be, thanks to great DI and edgecanceling. Fthrowing Silent Wolf near the edge, for example, feels dangerous to me because he almost always finds a way to either get out or else to punish me. Maybe I'm doing it wrong, though, and you can teach me what I'm supposed to be doing.honestly what umbreon mentioned about spacies having ways out of marth's edgeguard was way too negative..marth can cover all those options reactively except jump on airdodge shine mixed up with jump to the ledge. bigger problem is his good edgeguarding coverage often doesn't net an instant kill against fox so you have to work multiple times. Against falco it's not that bad.
edit: technically marth can cover those two at the same time as well, but then he can't have 100% coverage on the rest. Marth has really good coverage on opponent's offstage as long as they aren't too high vertically
and against fox air dodge on shine is hardly a reversal.. just make sure the shine sends you back on stage...it's definitely worth the risk.
This was very useful, thanks for putting it that way.Yeah, what i have realized from watching PP's marth is that you really don't want to be hitting your opponent if it doesn't lead to a good chance of killing them.
He kept getting hit more in neutral than I would, yet he can't winning his matches because when he did take the time to swing it was something that could lead to killing his opponent, where I tended to swing to protect myself too often with poor placement that didn't net anything useful.
Again, maybe I'm doing it wrong, but I haven't seen a Marth do it "guaranteedly". (I'm allowed to make up words; I'm an immigrant.) Do you have any vids of Marths doing it this consistently?The good part about juggling people above you is that you can just do it until they die. You don't have to guess to hit them again, and the only difference damage makes is how long you wait until they come back down. It doesn't matter how long it takes if it's guaranteed. Whenever I have problems killing I usually notice that I'm trying to kill them from neutral, and if you setup your kill its no different than them being at a lower %.
Your prose could be less irritating.this is correct actually, but that's because the marth made the mistake of "trying to kill" rather than just holding stage position. i guarantee that if you just hold stage position indefinitely, which marth is completely capable of, your opponent will die eventually with very minimal risk.
Can I recommend Fox?
This is a very good insight.Funny that PP plays like this despite getting advice from umbreon who says to just worry about position and maintain it. However, i think in most situations I agree with umbreon that marths don't play for position enough. But there are definitely times to just take the risk. The problem is marths often go for super high variance options when they have a cleaner option if they just move to a solid position where often the Expected return is higher. But instead they have this conception that they must take the mixup immediately when they can wait for a better one
This is good too, except your font colour is rather grating.Just because throwing Falco off stage is a 50-50 doesn't mean you'll get punished as hard as he does. Half the time he dies. ~1/4th of the time you hard read for DJ dair, and the last 1/4th you play it safe and react to all his other options, tap him, and he's dead. Simply waiting for DJ dair/airdodge is perfectly safe. If you're wrong and they sweetspot the ledge through some method (ignoring the fact that you can usually cover both of these options), you're still in an advantageous position. Falco is trapped on the ledge within your grab range. He's either going to hold shield, roll, spotdoge, or jump (FH or aerial OoS). He literally has no other options. I'd say Marth is one of the best at shutting down characters when they are forced into digital decisions as opposed to analog decisions where there's a million different spacings or timings that can be used.
Sure, you can stick with Theory Bros. and try to juggle everyone to 200% every stock, but until someone demonstrates that doing it is a realistic possibility, it's not a clearly optimal course of action. Telling Marth players to just space perfectly all match is comparable to telling spacies to camp the ledge all game with Firestalls and ledgedash punishes. The only reason spacies don't camp ledges like that is because ****ing up is inevitable, and they get wrecked when they eventually make a mistake. As I've said more than a few times on these forums, playing perfect is not optimal. And the funny part is, this is coming from the biggest tech nerd on the planet who constantly puts his stocks on the line with shield drops, multishines, platform cancels, and ledge cancels when there are easier options available that accomplish 90% of what the ideal option does.
Could you please explain how this CC thing works? And I read something earlier about SH before CCing... does that actually do something?No problem man. Did you get to try Crouch PS against Falco / Peach / Other situations ?
Thanks for your response. Do you mean that as soon as you know they're going to be getting onto the platform, you should start SH for the uair? What if they get-up attack? For the top platform trick, do you have a video that shows this? And does this avoid get-up attack, too?Uair into Utilt when they're on the platform! Waveland regrab!
Hitting a spacie onto a top platform just SH no FF just before they land. You can DJ FF Uair and tipper them no matter what and you'll burn their DJ or reset them afterward.
Pigeonholing yourself into one style of play is bad. Take risks sometimes especially if they lead to kills, but otherwise play kinda like what you're saying too. Doesn't have to be a one or the other type of thing. =)
Uhhh I think I just falling Uair(from initial SH after throw) them if they miss their tech lol. You just have to kinda FF it quickly so you can stay safe and Uair just in case they spam getup attack or something. Maybe there's a situation where you're more concerned about getup attack though that I'm not understanding?Thanks for your response. Do you mean that as soon as you know they're going to be getting onto the platform, you should start SH for the uair? What if they get-up attack? For the top platform trick, do you have a video that shows this? And does this avoid get-up attack, too?
I think we agree about the play-style thing.
Thanks everyone, for a productive day on the Marth forums!
My prose is keen and intentional.Your prose could be less irritating.
Anyway, I'm still waiting to hear how Marth is "completely capable" of holding stage position indefinitely without error. I keep hearing arguments based on near 1.00 probability, when I'm thinking of 0.80^x, as discussed above.
And yes, I play Fox when I don't feel like putting in the work with Marth. Both work well for me -- yourself?
i think he means sh under the platform and just reactively rising upair, if you were already on the side platform it's pretty easy to do. I don't know how you would get hit by get up attack while under the platform. maybe i misunderstoodI'm with Umbreon and PP on this. Marth's grab on the edge just isn't as good as it used to be, thanks to great DI and edgecanceling. Fthrowing Silent Wolf near the edge, for example, feels dangerous to me because he almost always finds a way to either get out or else to punish me. Maybe I'm doing it wrong, though, and you can teach me what I'm supposed to be doing.
Thanks for your response. Do you mean that as soon as you know they're going to be getting onto the platform, you should start SH for the uair? What if they get-up attack? For the top platform trick, do you have a video that shows this? And does this avoid get-up attack, too?
If you're using a character with a low crouch relatively to your standing height, e.g. Marth or Sheik, then any move that's right above your head when you crouch would have hit you , were you standing.Diakonos said:Could you please explain how this CC thing works? And I read something earlier about SH before CCing... does that actually do something?
Okay, maybe I'm being paranoid. I think you mean to jump in such a way that I'm hovering under the platform if they miss their tech, staying low enough that the get-up attack won't hit. I'm pretty sure there's a way around this, but I'll just have to keep an eye out for it so I can explain what I mean.Uhhh I think I just falling Uair(from initial SH after throw) them if they miss their tech lol. You just have to kinda FF it quickly so you can stay safe and Uair just in case they spam getup attack or something. Maybe there's a situation where you're more concerned about getup attack though that I'm not understanding?
And I don't have a video outside of just M2K putting any spacie on a platform on like YS or FoD kinda that demonstrates this but he tends to pretty reliably do that Uair stuff to spacies. I mean I do it fairly well myself but that's not online <.<
This SH vs DJ Uair trick is more based on reaction than prediction it feels to me, so you should never/almost never be threatened by getup attack. I feel like there's another concern that comes with this but I may just be paranoid since I haven't played the matchup in a couple days and I don't always get that situation when I play it(I try to avoid it honestly since it's a pretty grueling one even if I do believe the hits are fairly guaranteed in it.)
Thanks for your response. I think we agree that it's not "guaranteed", so perhaps that word was being used too liberally. There is a margin of error, and imho it's not negligible. The chance of successfully hitting all those fairs/uairs in a row without interruption is not as high as we'd like, I think, and for this reason it's not fair to say that Marth can indefinitely keep position. Seeing as how the risk-reward factor is not so lopsided, the better option may in fact be to take that .70 chance over a .80^x chance: if you do kill, then that stock is won for you, whereas if you opt for "indefinite positioning", you are still vulnerable and are more likely to get to a point where they're at percentages in which it's difficult to kill them. Unfortunately, in Marth's important matchups, he is more likely to get combo'd into death at higher percentages than he is to do that himself. For example, Fox has uthrow uair, Falco has laser/shine ->attack ->edgeguard, Sheik has throw->fair, Falcon has move->knee, etc.My prose is keen and intentional.
If marth was capable of fully holding stage position, he'd be completely busted and we wouldn't be talking about it. The margin or error is when your opponent fights back. Given that your opponent will fight back and that the character has limited kill options, why would anyone advocate any action other than stage control?
If fox is going well for you when marth is "work", you can probably separate the two and find a discrepancy in your marth style. I would not advocate any player to focus on more than one character for tournament purposes.
Well, if I forward throw and he edgecancels it, a great Fox isn't in an absolutely terrible position since I'd be quite close to the edge. He could ledgedash on with invincibility and work me woe. He could come up with a crafty attack, forcing me to back up and give up space. Otto uses shine to stall and space his moves perfectly. Sometimes he will walljump and airdodge, as you mention. He could edgecancel the throw and jump to come down with an attack. I'm not even sure these are all the options, but hopefully I'm not the only one in this position?i have no idea how any fox could possibly be reversing the situation except with instant airdodge, which some marths mix in run off rising nair to catch and kill the fox with that. If you showed me a video I am sure i could tell you what you're doing wrong, but if you had a video you yourself would probably realize what you were doing wrong.
Ah, that's a great explanation. I know people said that crouching helps PS, but I was pretty good at PS without crouch so I never bothered to investigate. Thanks!If you're using a character with a low crouch relatively to your standing height, e.g. Marth or Sheik, then any move that's right above your head when you crouch would have hit you , were you standing.
That's how Crouch PS operates. If you wait for the move to graze your head, then press shield, you will never ever miss the powershield, it's automatic, because Marth will go back to standing, and then the move will already be 'inside' you = free PS.
Example : http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=MgV3_uUgxh0#t=805s
Samus will never get a missile lower than crouch height on FD, so it's really easy to abuse it against her.
The SH then Crouch thing was to control the Seeking missile's trajectory, so as to make it hit from above, instead of from the front, allowing you to then PS it.
Any Falco that doesn't pay attention to laser height makes it free to PS, too. If the laser goes above your head, you can just PS, wavedash out of that, dash dance, etc. Above = Free PS, always.
Goes for Peach, as you'd imagine, most of them go for Float --> Turnip, and you'll just PS it right back at them. Just WD underneath the turnip then PS.
Example : http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=dLT97ivKo_4#t=304s
Peach is tricky though. That worked against any Peach ever but Armada ***** me hard still.
Works against physical attacks by the way, like Falco's dair approach, Falcon attempting a Knee, etc.
<3I hate Dr. Peepee
Throw closer to the edge or just pummel more to see if you can trip up their DI. Sometimes you just gotta Uthrow and get more damage instead. Sometimes them getting the edge is alright if you just WD back afterward so you're still sort of controlling the situation. There's a lot of very situational/%-based stuff related to throwing spacies offstage.Well, if I forward throw and he edgecancels it, a great Fox isn't in an absolutely terrible position since I'd be quite close to the edge. He could ledgedash on with invincibility and work me woe. He could come up with a crafty attack, forcing me to back up and give up space. Otto uses shine to stall and space his moves perfectly. Sometimes he will walljump and airdodge, as you mention. He could edgecancel the throw and jump to come down with an attack. I'm not even sure these are all the options, but hopefully I'm not the only one in this position?