Important Carefully Ask PPMD about the Tiara Guy

[Bones0]

Just because throwing Falco off stage is a 50-50 doesn't mean you'll get punished as hard as he does. Half the time he dies. ~1/4th of the time you hard read for DJ dair, and the last 1/4th you play it safe and react to all his other options, tap him, and he's dead. Simply waiting for DJ dair/airdodge is perfectly safe. If you're wrong and they sweetspot the ledge through some method (ignoring the fact that you can usually cover both of these options), you're still in an advantageous position. Falco is trapped on the ledge within your grab range. He's either going to hold shield, roll, spotdoge, or jump (FH or aerial OoS). He literally has no other options. I'd say Marth is one of the best at shutting down characters when they are forced into digital decisions as opposed to analog decisions where there's a million different spacings or timings that can be used.

Sure, you can stick with Theory Bros. and try to juggle everyone to 200% every stock, but until someone demonstrates that doing it is a realistic possibility, it's not a clearly optimal course of action. Telling Marth players to just space perfectly all match is comparable to telling spacies to camp the ledge all game with Firestalls and ledgedash punishes. The only reason spacies don't camp ledges like that is because ****ing up is inevitable, and they get wrecked when they eventually make a mistake. As I've said more than a few times on these forums, playing perfect is not optimal. And the funny part is, this is coming from the biggest tech nerd on the planet who constantly puts his stocks on the line with shield drops, multishines, platform cancels, and ledge cancels when there are easier options available that accomplish 90% of what the ideal option does.

 

[Mahie]

Can we just focus on what to do in very specific situations because everytime we get onto more general playstyle, everyone says the same thing they've always said and no one learns from it. Maybe we should just take it one step at a time.


Can you give more details into the situation you were on about originally bones ? Matchup / Stage / % / exact position. The more accurate the better ofc.

 

[knightpraetor]

back in theory bros land again. lol, i hate arguments like this, I can think of places where i agree with umbreon, but top platforms are bad for marth, and high firefox is not something marth can cover well without going offstage and committing.

edit:
actually marth could cover all of that as well on stage in ken's era when tech instant phantasm and shortens weren't around I would still stay on stage all the time.

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

Any good paper for publication would normally start fairly broad. The purpose of a publication is typically to contribute something relevant. So, with a general introduction one can easily see the purpose behind the paper. The supporting evidence as follows helps contribute to strengthening the proposal and the readers understanding of the underlying meaning.

So, I think starting out broadly, then working into specifics is the better route. It helps keep track of where to apply these specific things we are talking about. Like, okay, lets talk about Uair/Utilt on fox, but what leads into that. Oh, you can apply what we talked about with Uair/Utilt on fox because CG leads into this. That sort of thing.

 

[S l o X]

pivot dtilts are stupid hard and seem almost impossible to do consistently.

marth players mm my spacies at apex (because marth dittos aren't my thing)

5$ and teach me hidden marth secrets / gimmicks

 

[Mahie]

Any good paper for publication would normally start fairly broad. The purpose of a publication is typically to contribute something relevant. So, with a general introduction one can easily see the purpose behind the paper. The supporting evidence as follows helps contribute to strengthening the proposal and the readers understanding of the underlying meaning.

So, I think starting out broadly, then working into specifics is the better route. It helps keep track of where to apply these specific things we are talking about. Like, okay, lets talk about Uair/Utilt on fox, but what leads into that. Oh, you can apply what we talked about with Uair/Utilt on fox because CG leads into this. That sort of thing.

Except we're not trying to write a paper, just to take a step forward. There's no time for months of research, we just need to solve problems one at a time. Eventually they'll lead to something else, either a new problem or a new tool, and from that you take another step and so on and so forth. You then end up with marth 2.0.

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

That or you end up recovering the same thing over and over again because you aren't keeping track of what you learned.

Okay, but how about this. Strong missles are easily powershielded. I didn't think about crouch powershield for her missles at all was so effective until that video was shown. But how about when the seeker missles are thrown in? Not so easy to powershield anymore methinks, but I don't get to play a samus to try it out.

 

[Mahone]

talking about it isn't keeping track of it either, itll just get brought up in another 20 pages or so

 

[AustinRC]

@ Xeylode - if you short hop a little after the missle comes out then crouch you can PS it super easy.

 

[Mahie]

They're not as easy to powershield to me, but to be honest I think it's only because I lack the practice against them in particular.

It's not like they achieve much in terms of giving Samus a better position though, so you can probably just walk back or purposely get hit/hit them and get a move out of the stun before Samus does anything.

Edit : Or what Arc said yeah, that's pretty smart actually. Try and maneuver around them so that they eventually reach you from above.

 

[Deleted member]

Except we're not trying to write a paper, just to take a step forward. There's no time for months of research, we just need to solve problems one at a time. Eventually they'll lead to something else, either a new problem or a new tool, and from that you take another step and so on and so forth. You then end up with marth 2.0.

I think he's trying to say that we should structure our learning process, which is a completely reasonable approach. start general, and work your way down to the specifics.

i'll go first. super smash bros is a glorified king of the hill style game. you win by keeping the stage when your opponent can't. when your opponent fails to keep the stage 4 times before you fail to keep the stage 4 times, you win. therefore, the best strategy is to stay on the "hill" while keeping your opponent off of it. we should optimize the best way to do this.

 

[Mahie]

The thing about that Umbreon is that there is so much data and that we all interpret it differently. I feel like if we all were reading off the same theory book, and with the same general metagame, we might be able to get into these discussions but as of now, it didn't bring anything good to this thread ever.

Hence my saying we should start by writing the theory book down first. Disregard it as Theory bros all you want, but at least know what we're all talking about first.

 

[AustinRC]

Thank's Mahie, I came up with the idea after what you showed me with the samus ps stuff. :D

Edit: I'd also love to discuss Marth's meta game with anyone! PM or AIM me, I'll be on most of today.

 

[Mahie]

No problem man. Did you get to try Crouch PS against Falco / Peach / Other situations ?


Edit : We should get a Marth skype group like the one Mahone made for puffs a few months ago. That s*** was tight.

 

[AustinRC]

Yeah I have, I was practicing that with PP and learning to ps lasers while dashing away. With what I've learnt from him and now this I'm able to use it against a LOT of things now! Marth Skype group would be cool. Do you have AIM? If so message me!

 

[AppleAppleAZ]

Hey I don't mean to interrupt this metagame evolution, but can anyone tell me how to WD to the ledge fast? Whenever I try I just end up hitting the end of the stage and sliding off vs that smooth ledgegrab.

Edit: sorry if this is a noob Q.

 

[Mahie]

You mean like you're facing towards the stage while drifting away from it ?

That's either because you held down or away, afaik.

Also you need to fast fall to get the smooth ledgegrab you see on videos. But you also need to return your stick to neutral/forward to grab the ledge, or you'll FF through it.

 

[Deleted member]

The thing about that Umbreon is that there is so much data and that we all interpret it differently. I feel like if we all were reading off the same theory book, and with the same general metagame, we might be able to get into these discussions but as of now, it didn't bring anything good to this thread ever.

i think we should just give up while we're ahead lmao

 

[AppleAppleAZ]

You mean like you're facing towards the stage while drifting away from it ?

That's either because you held down or away, afaik.

Also you need to fast fall to get the smooth ledgegrab you see on videos. But you also need to return your stick to neutral/forward to grab the ledge, or you'll FF through it.

I assume whats happening is that I'm hitting right on the ledge so its cancelling, and then the momentum is carrying me straight out from the stage. so I'm not sure if I should Wd farther or not. Whenever I try to go far I end up suiciding.

 

[Mahie]

i think we should just give up while we're ahead lmao

err who's we in that sentence lol ?

I assume whats happening is that I'm hitting right on the ledge so its cancelling, and then the momentum is carrying me straight out from the stage. so I'm not sure if I should Wd farther or not. Whenever I try to go far I end up suiciding.

Try this way :

1. Wavedash / Dash Forward
2. Dash back
3. Wavedash backwards. Make sure to get more than 45° angle, you need to get it as close to horizontal as possible.
4. Imput the fast fall as soon as you're offstage
5. Release the stick right away

 

[AppleAppleAZ]

err who's we in that sentence lol ?



Try this way :

1. Wavedash / Dash Forward
2. Dash back
3. Wavedash backwards. Make sure to get more than 45° angle, you need to get it as close to horizontal as possible.
4. Imput the fast fall as soon as you're offstage
5. Release the stick right away

Thanks for that. I'll try it.

 

[knightpraetor]

marth is playing king of the hill, but peach and jiggs ignore stage control, and falco can reacquire control much too easily with laser if you give him space, thereby leading to marth not giving him as much space, thereby letting falco actually be able to attack you easier, thereby creating a mixup for him despite being boxed out if you try to dashdance camp him when he's boxed out.

marths use less dashdance and more sh and dtilt now when falco is boxed out to maintain stage control. Regardless falcos these days use their full hop to at least allow him decent options and create mixups even when in a disadvantaged position. That's why falco is far scarier than fox. Fox's full hop doesn't go very far so he's easy to chase vertically. Falco actually creates mixups in which marth must make commitments to cover him or he will reach the top platform and then have more mixups for getting down. and he can also fake going for them and then actually come in with a dair, though that is easy to bait. realistically marth wrecks falco with stage control, but not as consistently as he can vs fox.

also, i make it sound like marth is god tier, but sheik and marth equally wreck each other with stage control. Falcon's stage control though is pretty garbage, but the threat of getting hit is a lot higher. That said, this makes falcon higher variance, less consistent in tourney even against marth and far less likely to win a national. If falcon were a god tier char then maybe he could get away with high variance, but he's not

marth and falcon both have quite a bit of variance to their char that weakens them a lot. though i don't think marth's variance is from his stage control issues. It's more from Dreamland, where stage control doesn't exist against people with a good full hop (falco), his high variance recovery, and high variance combo system on platforms. Marth would be a lot better if we played FD only, even in a world with no space animals.

 

[AustinRC]

marth is playing king of the hill, but peach and jiggs ignore stage control, and falco can reacquire control much too easily with laser if you give him space, thereby leading to marth not giving him as much space, thereby letting falco actually be able to attack you easier, thereby creating a mixup for him despite being boxed out if you try to dashdance camp him when he's boxed out.

marths use less dashdance and more sh and dtilt now when falco is boxed out to maintain stage control. Regardless falcos these days use their full hop to at least allow him decent options and create mixups even when in a disadvantaged position. That's why falco is far scarier than fox. Fox's full hop doesn't go very far so he's easy to chase vertically. Falco actually creates mixups in which marth must make commitments to cover him or he will reach the top platform and then have more mixups for getting down. and he can also fake going for them and then actually come in with a dair, though that is easy to bait. realistically marth wrecks falco with stage control, but not as consistently as he can vs fox.

also, i make it sound like marth is god tier, but sheik and marth equally wreck each other with stage control. Falcon's stage control though is pretty garbage, but the threat of getting hit is a lot higher. That said, this makes falcon higher variance, less consistent in tourney even against marth and far less likely to win a national. If falcon were a god tier char then maybe he could get away with high variance, but he's not

I will agree that if you give Falco too much room he can regain stage control with the snap of his gun but Jigglypuff and Peach fall into the same category as the other characters. They can be boxed out just as well it's just a LOT slower and much more different, keep in mind peach's float only lasts so long and only like three of the six jigglypuff jumps are actually amazing.

Edit: Examples of this is basically pushing them to the edge of the stage with dash dances and forcing them into the air at that point they'll either go off stage or try and go above you. That's only if you box them out perfectly/ theory bro's but w/e I'm trying to be insightful.

 

[knightpraetor]

boxing out jiggs and peach only serves to force them into the air, what they would have done anyway. you can't dashdance close enough to catch jiggs retreat and her approach, you have to bait and take a mixup. It's a good situation but not significantly better than just getting jiggs to land with you spaced perfectly in the center of the stage, all she has lost is her wd out backwards into fsmash, and peach has lost her dash attack, but i would hardly call that stage control since both of those chars stay in the air to begin with

similarly for peach you can't dashdance close enough without risking a nair out of shield or a sudden float.

if by stage control you mean just sit there and maintain stage, that's fine, but jiggs can punish you for camping, and peach? Peach has no reason to approach marth when he has stage control because her aerials are landing lag only nonsense.

I do think that stage control helps a good bit against peach if you are up and she has to approach you, but against jiggs it has little to no effect.

Oh there is one good affect, the risk rate for going for fsmash and ftilt decreases a lot when jiggs is out of space

That isn't to say i am suggesting marth can ignore stage control. marth will get wrecked by jiggs and peach if he runs out of stage, so you should be still be wary of reversals and losing stage even if it's to something as simple as a roll

 

[AustinRC]

You can bully both of those characters with your superior movement speed.

Keep in mind this is theory bros once again someone playing at a perfect game this is how it should end up for the Marth.

Peach example:

Dash dance just out of dash attack range, if she tries to pull a turnip run up grab/ run in dtilt. Most peach mains know good marth's will do this so they have to give up a little stage space in order to try and bait the marth, however if the marth player is patient he'll just wait for her to either dash attack early or try to pull a turnip. A LOT of players will cumble under the pressure and jump and float. From that position you have the advantage, get close to her but not so close that she can fall down and fair you. From that position you can get close to her and then full jump fair or run under her and sh uair. It's a bad position for peach because eventually she'll run out of float AND she cant change direction with her float very well at all.

 

[ShroudedOne]

Peach and Jiggs ignore stage control? What are you talking about? There's no such thing as ignoring stage control....

When you force them into the air, you're putting them in the air on your terms, not theirs. How is that bad?

 

[knightpraetor]

if floating suddenly gave a dashdancing marth the advantage armada would not be able to beat m2k.

if the peach is being stupid and sitting in float then yeah they are bad, realistically they should instantly float high into approaching fair, camping fair or mid float into nair for a trade. marth cannot block all of them simultaneously. if he's just reactively moving backwards in fear of the fair then peach lands with her lack of landing lag fair taking 1cm or so of space and now she is on the ground again, so marth hasn't committed? is he too close? you have the option to dash attack or low float nair, is he far away, you have time to float again or even dash/wavedash.

if by stage control you mean having the stage, then of course no one ignores it. But i'm saying marth has no real control

if marth could reach a spacing where he could reactively punish their movement from their landing point it would be fine. But peach and jiggs can jump offstage while floating. Effectively they have ground to retreat too. Luckily there is a limit, but it's definitely not what i would consider control.

having fox pinned at the ledge, that's control. having jiggs/peach at the ledge is: let's get a read

 

[AustinRC]

I will retract my previous statement about being able to box jigglypuff out. You both have to stay in each others range till one of you gets a read I'll admit that.

Edit: @knightpraetor - I feel like them floating is a risk, Marth is always wanting his opponent above him. I suppose I can kind of understand the use of floating like that it's just another mix up. Like I said if the Marth is patient enough peach really can't do much. I'm talking simply about character vs character not M2K vs Armada. All in all, those floaty *****'s gotta come down sometime : /

 

[knightpraetor]

floating is a risk, and marth is in a much better situation there, i would probably react to what peach does and camp them even if i was down in tourney. But peach can punish dashdance camping and can take space back if marth camps with his aerials.

I guess what i mean when i say a char ignores stage control is that i mean that char has a mixup that allows them not only to regain stage control, but also reverse the situation. Chars like fox...they are lucky to get an escape, that's why it feels like control. well even fox can sometimes reverse it but the odds are really bad if he just goes in and tries to compete on those terms. Jiggs, I don't think her odds of winning the mixup are even worse than normal against marth, the only difference being the quality of the punish marth gets if she is wrong goes up.

As for Peach, her odds of winning the exchange are probably significantly worse, but at the same time her odds of a complete reversal are much higher due to the strength of her fair or nair into grab/dsmash

 

[AustinRC]

"Ahem" I guess it's settled then we are all right! :D

 

[knightpraetor]

yeah. i am just rambling..niko must be having a fit amused at how much another year of playing marth changed my tune on the char. Sigh, those first two years of marth playing you are just so young and full of belief. I still stand by marth beating falco if marths can consistently powershield the whole match. but i'm more realistic about whether i will be able to do that every set in a tournament

 

[AustinRC]

Yeah if the marth can powershield consistantly and the falco can't deal with it well then the matchup tilts into his favor quite well. It's pretty funny!

 

[Tarv]

We should get a Marth skype group like the one Mahone made for puffs a few months ago. That s*** was tight.

If you guys do end up doing this could you please please please stream the calls on twitch?

 

[AustinRC]

I mean, what would even be discussed in these calls anyway? I mean I'm completely down to have them and everything but yeah.

 

[Mahie]

I meant just text chatting, I don't think there's anything urgent enough that would justify calls.

 

[AustinRC]

I meant just text chatting, I don't think there's anything urgent enough that would justify calls.

What about an in depth pivot guide?! EHHHH!?!?!?!?! :D

 

[Mahie]

Well that's your specialty, I'm all up for that haha.

 

[AustinRC]

Yeah actually if we recorded that I wouldnt even have to do the video. HmmmmmmmmMMmM!!!!!!! Maybe we could just do an interview type thing and I could show demonstrations of it being done and stuff.

 

[PB&J]

arc- i dont use aim anymore,get on skype son and add me: pbnj23

 

[Mahone]

pbnj im on skype now, u play mtg, lets goes