Important Carefully Ask PPMD about the Tiara Guy

[Tee ay eye]

why do we think rising fair approaches are bad in the first place, again?

i think it'll be easier to accept all of this if we address what pre-conceptions we previously had and discuss what is right and what is wrong about them.

 

[.Chipmunk.]

why do we think rising fair approaches are bad in the first place, again?

i think it'll be easier to accept all of this if we address what pre-conceptions we previously had and discuss what is right and what is wrong about them.

CC ****, OoS ****, bad spacing ****. For the record, I don't think rising fair is bad when properly spaced. It's just too easy not to space it properly. Why is it too easy not to space properly? Because of the speed the fair comes out. I know many Marth's like to double fair or 'rising fair' with A instead of c-stick so it requires forward motion and so you can get ***** because of it. Personally, I can only c-stick double fair 1 direction when using X or Y, otherwise I need to use up which I can accidentally turn into a full jump instead. I think plenty of people have the same issue.

 

[Tee ay eye]

i do rising fairs with Z

Spoiler

sometimes

 

[.Chipmunk.]

i do rising fairs with Z

Spoiler

sometimes

I tried that, but I don't have my timing down well enough so I grab sometimes, and you still end up with the same problem as you do with A in that you have to hold the direction you wish to attack which means you're drifting forward which means your spacing can get *****.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Tried more rising SH Fair vs Puff today, and had success.

Good call Sveet Ima play around with more of this lol.

oolmonke







I definitely suggest using cstick for your rising fairs. The level of control is too good.

 

[Dr Peepee]

I wanna use A =(

I'll try lol I know I need it.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

It wasn't directed at you, some people above were discussing it. Thought I would suggest it to you as well. Retreating rising fairs would be really difficult to do without cstick IMO, but do whatever works for you

 

[Bones0]

I can do retreating fairs with A. It's really not an issue once you get used to it. The way to test if your A-pressing abilities are legit enough is to see if you can do waveland bairs with full drift with Doc (wavelanding/drifting left, but bairing right, or vice versa).

 

[.Chipmunk.]

So what do you do just pivot the stick the direction you want, press A, then pivot it back the other direction? I've tried that but all I can manage is to pretty much go nowhere and not actually move backwards. Guess I'm just doing it wrong.

@Sveet: It's not a question of what I want to use. I definitely want to use c-stick. It's the fact my thumb can't go from Y to the left side of the c-stick fast enough.

 

[Strong Badam]

index finger on y, thumb on c-stick
the best fairs you ever seen

 

[.Chipmunk.]

index finger on y, thumb on c-stick
the best fairs you ever seen

claw? gross. I can't short hop like that haha.

 

[Niko45]

cstick FTW

 

[Bones0]

So what do you do just pivot the stick the direction you want, press A, then pivot it back the other direction? I've tried that but all I can manage is to pretty much go nowhere and not actually move backwards. Guess I'm just doing it wrong.

@Sveet: It's not a question of what I want to use. I definitely want to use c-stick. It's the fact my thumb can't go from Y to the left side of the c-stick fast enough.

Tilt the fair. It's helpful to practice with Falco (and I think Sheik, and probably other charactesr) because he back flips when you jump back. Most new players don't make the distinction between jump and jump backwards/forwards, but the difference in momentum is huge, especially for Marth. Chances are if you are going nowhere it's because you're moving the stick forward before you leave the ground.

 

[VietGeek]

So I'm a scrubby Marth player that just went back to playing this game. I'm having some trouble with the Samus match-up. It seems killing Samus is very difficult, as is edgeguarding her. Any tips in particular?

Am I right that in this match-up, I should treat Samus the same way I would treat Peach during the neutral game and swat away her missiles as I would turnips and keep her on her toes?

Finally, is this match-up still played relatively the same as it was pre-Brawl? I plan to watch Ken vs Hugs @ EVO2007 again to try to gain a deeper understanding of this match-up.

obv

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Oh i gotchu. shdf with cstick was like my first AT i learned back in the day before i even learned how to waveshine. If you practice a little bit, i'm sure you'll get it.

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

How should you be treating projectiles from other characters such as doc, samus and peach? I feel like trying to hit them away from time to time, but I feel like it puts me in an awkward position. I typically resort to shielding, then do some sort of jump out of shield option: full hop to platform or wave dash back.

 

[Beat!]

Yo, thanks for all the advice on teaming with Puff, everyone. We did great, got 5th place and almost beat Dev and Nedech.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

How should you be treating projectiles from other characters such as doc, samus and peach? I feel like trying to hit them away from time to time, but I feel like it puts me in an awkward position. I typically resort to shielding, then do some sort of jump out of shield option: full hop to platform or wave dash back.

Depends on the match-up. In general, you don't want to be backing up for no reason. Doc's pills are pretty safe to swat away since he has quite a bit of lag. If you can powershield samus' strong missiles, you will turn the advantage into your own. Otherwise, use fair or jab to kill them. Samus players want you to shield so they can set up their spacing

 

[Bones0]

Shielding also runs the risk of getting shield poked (which is less of a risk, and more of a matter of time for Marth).

 

[MT_]

Try to avoid swatting Doc's pills with grounded moves; if Doc is falling toward you with his pill covering his front and you try to swat the pill, the lag from swatting the pill is too big to avoid getting hit by like ftilt or dsmash from the Doc. If you want to swat the pills, using fairs (or nairs if you think it'll connect with Doc) is better so you can stay mobile since they don't "clank" with the pills.

Lately I've been playing a decent Doc a fair amount (anyone heard of old school Cyphus?) and picking up a lot about the matchup that was entirely new to me previously... did you know that Doc's dash attack can poke Marth's full shield?? It's BS lol

 

[Bones0]

Anything can poke Marth's full shield. Aim for his noggin or cankles.

 

[Construct]

So I'm a scrubby Marth player that just went back to playing this game. I'm having some trouble with the Samus match-up. It seems killing Samus is very difficult, as is edgeguarding her. Any tips in particular?

Am I right that in this match-up, I should treat Samus the same way I would treat Peach during the neutral game and swat away her missiles as I would turnips and keep her on her toes?

Finally, is this match-up still played relatively the same as it was pre-Brawl? I plan to watch Ken vs Hugs @ EVO2007 again to try to gain a deeper understanding of this match-up.

obv

Watch
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OssFnNwJHXo
and
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MbOAYmjXzIk
They're in PAL, but the idea remains the same.

 

[JPOBS]

what part of dolphin slash has the most knockback/kill potential? the front or he reverse?
are there any gifs showing the hitbox?

 

[Fregadero]

If you want to include chance to hit in potential then I'm pretty sure its the reverse. Iirc the sweetspot hitbox is a lot bigger and in an easier place to use.

I dont have frame date or an image to look at though, I could be wrong.

 

[Tee ay eye]

Try to avoid swatting Doc's pills with grounded moves; if Doc is falling toward you with his pill covering his front and you try to swat the pill, the lag from swatting the pill is too big to avoid getting hit by like ftilt or dsmash from the Doc. If you want to swat the pills, using fairs (or nairs if you think it'll connect with Doc) is better so you can stay mobile since they don't "clank" with the pills.

Lately I've been playing a decent Doc a fair amount (anyone heard of old school Cyphus?) and picking up a lot about the matchup that was entirely new to me previously... did you know that Doc's dash attack can poke Marth's full shield?? It's BS lol

did cyphus move away from louisiana?

i was born in new orleans (well, gretna, to be exact), and some of my friends from louisiana were actually the ones that introduced me to competitive smash, but i didn't actually pick it up until i moved to arizona.... but i used to think that cyphus and lee martin were like, god-tier melee players cuz i heard they were way better than my friends, and i thought my friends were amazing LOOOLLL

 

[MT_]

Yea Cyphus moved to Austin a few months ago and plays with us regularly now. One of the most chill guys I've ever met lol.

 

[knightpraetor]

claw definitely simplifies things, but i could do all of that before when i used C stick..but it was annoyingly difficult to do..i think i was just cheating too..for one direction i used my thumb to press the Cstick and the other direction i just used the side of my lower thumb...

ahh life is so much easier when clawing...only regret clawing when i accidentally press R


"why do we think rising fair approaches are bad in the first place, again?
i think it'll be easier to accept all of this if we address what pre-conceptions we previously had and discuss what is right and what is wrong about them. "

the reason we think falling fair approaches are bad is because certain characters are too fast and can get under because marth hovers in the air too long.

the reason we think rising fair approaches are bad is because we compare it to fox's nair (the ideal good approach), and we find that fox can overshoot his nair to avoid having it miss, but we cannot overshoot our fair and still have it be a safe spaced aerial..

obviously fox's overshot aerials can be punished in other ways, but marth's rising fair has significantly more lag than other character's approaching aerials.it's still really really good to punish overly aggressive opponents as well as good when the opponent is boxed out at the ledge...but for FD and PS I just can't picture marth trying that much center stage.

 

[Tee ay eye]

i'm playing around with cpus right now and i'm still not really convinced that rising fair is a good approach vs people that stay grounded unless you're able to hit tippers consistently

 

[Mew2King]

Fair is good at low % because if you get hit out of the air at 0% you can often hit them right back with another Fair lol

 

[Dr Peepee]

i'm playing around with cpus right now and i'm still not really convinced that rising fair is a good approach vs people that stay grounded unless you're able to hit tippers consistently

yeah tippers are ideal vs grounded opponents when fair'ing until higher percents, but the way I do them is I catch someone trying to move around with Fair or zone them into moving away with it rather than always just go for a flat out approach with Fair.

This kind of depends on the matchup though. For example, I am fine zoning Fairs vs Fox at times because he doesn't have threatening enough range to always catch me if I whiff and I am suddenly encroaching on his space. Yes, he can upsmash in between Fairs but that is difficult timing and hard to catch on Marth unless Fox is specifically waiting for the Fairs. Falcon, however, loves it when Marth whiffs in the air so the Fairs are better done to try and either connect with Falcon when close/he jumps or farther away to bait a counterattack.


I would never rising Fair vs a grounded Sheik though lol. That character dumb. I also might not do it vs Marth either because he handles his own jumps well too.


@M2K: Word. Noted.

 

[leffen]

@PP: Shield stopping allows you to retreat much more than if you just run->hold back. Since you use A you probably don't notice though... =/ Still, try to do : dash->retreating nair, and then do dash->shield[1frame]->retreating nair. The difference is a bit smaller with fair but very noticeable

also: Marths should start aiming for each thing they do out to hit, or rather to have a purpose. Not getting punished if you miss should be a bonus, not the aim of using that specific move. Sure, sometime intentionally whiffing is a good bait, but it should not be the center of your game like many marths use it today.

This also aplies to dash dancing. Why do marths rely on it so much? You're intentionally limiting yourself to just "confuse" your opponent most times. In this metagame, top players know how dash dancing works way to well that "confusion" to work.

While it is true that always moving is good (which is the "true" purpose of dash dancing) when you do it so predictably it loses it purpose.

I'm not saying don't dash dance, dash dancing is a great way to broaden your options once you've started your dash. Oh, and I hate the term Dash dancing btw. It has come to imply that the forward and backwards part of the "dance" are even remotely alike.
The important part is to not do that first "dash" (which limits your options greatly) without purpose.

First we have dashing forward. When you dash forward, it indicates that you want to gain space/approach. Since having stage control is so immensely good in this game, moving forward is a necessity.
However, you need to consider why that you should choose to dash forward, instead of walk/wd/jump forward. Yeah, each of these options have their own faults, but none of them is as limiting as dashing forward.

Dashing forward real (non metagame influenced) use to me is that it moves forward quickly. While it is slower than WDing, it doesn't have any start up lag (this lag is much more important than some realize I think, it heavily limits characters like luigi and ice climbers)
The fact that dashing still gives you quite a few options is indeed nice, but since it still limits you quite a bit you should be very aware of what exactly dashing forward limits and how you should cover these limits.
A important aspect to dealing with these limitations is realizing that its not just "what can I do during my dash". It is how these limitations affect your decision to dash forward in the first place, and how you should condition your opponent while not dashing so that these limits do not cripple you.

I could go on for a lot longer but its getting really late ;o


oh and a quote from armada about playing my marth with falco:
"I can at most shoot about 7 lasers a match - and 6 of those are when you're in the air"

powershielding = broken

 

[Niko45]

whoa, we should try to hit things when we swing?

*rushes home to turn on cube*

 

[Dr Peepee]

@PP: Shield stopping allows you to retreat much more than if you just run->hold back. Since you use A you probably don't notice though... =/ Still, try to do : dash->retreating nair, and then do dash->shield[1frame]->retreating nair. The difference is a bit smaller with fair but very noticeable

also: Marths should start aiming for each thing they do out to hit, or rather to have a purpose. Not getting punished if you miss should be a bonus, not the aim of using that specific move. Sure, sometime intentionally whiffing is a good bait, but it should not be the center of your game like many marths use it today.

This also aplies to dash dancing. Why do marths rely on it so much? You're intentionally limiting yourself to just "confuse" your opponent most times. In this metagame, top players know how dash dancing works way to well that "confusion" to work.

While it is true that always moving is good (which is the "true" purpose of dash dancing) when you do it so predictably it loses it purpose.

I'm not saying don't dash dance, dash dancing is a great way to broaden your options once you've started your dash. Oh, and I hate the term Dash dancing btw. It has come to imply that the forward and backwards part of the "dance" are even remotely alike.
The important part is to not do that first "dash" (which limits your options greatly) without purpose.

First we have dashing forward. When you dash forward, it indicates that you want to gain space/approach. Since having stage control is so immensely good in this game, moving forward is a necessity.
However, you need to consider why that you should choose to dash forward, instead of walk/wd/jump forward. Yeah, each of these options have their own faults, but none of them is as limiting as dashing forward.

Dashing forward real (non metagame influenced) use to me is that it moves forward quickly. While it is slower than WDing, it doesn't have any start up lag (this lag is much more important than some realize I think, it heavily limits characters like luigi and ice climbers)
The fact that dashing still gives you quite a few options is indeed nice, but since it still limits you quite a bit you should be very aware of what exactly dashing forward limits and how you should cover these limits.
A important aspect to dealing with these limitations is realizing that its not just "what can I do during my dash". It is how these limitations affect your decision to dash forward in the first place, and how you should condition your opponent while not dashing so that these limits do not cripple you.

I could go on for a lot longer but its getting really late ;o


oh and a quote from armada about playing my marth with falco:
"I can at most shoot about 7 lasers a match - and 6 of those are when you're in the air"

powershielding = broken

So it allows you to retreat more? That's cool then thanks for the information. Maybe I'll start doing C stick Fairs with Marth soon enough. =p


Agreed with all said on DD'ing and wish you had continued.

<333 dash dancing

DD'ing at times other than pure neutral are also really interesting. For Marth I think DD'ing when someone has their shield up after teching is pretty potent, which is why M2K did it so much to bait spotdodges in like 07.

 

[TheCrimsonBlur]

@PP: Shield stopping allows you to retreat much more than if you just run->hold back. Since you use A you probably don't notice though... =/ Still, try to do : dash->retreating nair, and then do dash->shield[1frame]->retreating nair. The difference is a bit smaller with fair but very noticeable

I'll test this when I get home since you are the second person to say this, but as I said before, I am fairly sure this is not true.

I also strongly disagree with your analysis of dashdancing, particularly in relation to Marth, but since that topic is more...philosophical, I'll let the better players discuss it lol

 

[Construct]

Shielding quickly stops Marth's momentum; merely jumping out of a dash and holding backwards has to overcome the inertia from the initial dash first.

 

[TheCrimsonBlur]

^Yeah that makes sense but the reason I was questioning it is because the difference between the distance jumped is so small.

After testing it a bit, I now know I was dead wrong and Marth does indeed go a farther distance with a shield stop. A very small difference because Marth's short hop is so low to the ground, and one which (I think) may differ depending on where in your dash you are, but its there.

I'm happy we had this conversation though, because it makes me a) even more inspired to incorporate shield stops in my game and b) makes me curious about the dash/jump mechanics of the game. If a Fox nairs at the very beginning of his initial dash vs. at his full run, what is the distance difference? Things like that..

 

[Warhawk]

oh and a quote from armada about playing my marth with falco:
"I can at most shoot about 7 lasers a match - and 6 of those are when you're in the air"

powershielding = broken

Are there videos of these matches or are there going to be in the future? I kinda wanna see this lol.

 

[knightpraetor]

question leffen..i assume you are using the light shield removal trick when pluggin in your controller to get these high rates?

I just couldn't convince myself to do that vs falco because falcos are so good at shield piercing marth as it is...if i don't have the option to light shield i feel like falco's pressure is going to break me down..but then i don't know..maybe if falco could never laser he can't get the pressure to actually damage your shield. I will play with it some more though since everyone keeps raving about it.

the other thing is if that powershield trick is so good, why doesn't armada actually powershield falco's lasers with peach? is peach's shield too small? i always thought the problem with powershielding was the light shield coming up first and blocking it rather than a problem of shield size

 

[MT_]

question leffen..i assume you are using the light shield removal trick when pluggin in your controller to get these high rates?

I just couldn't convince myself to do that vs falco because falcos are so good at shield piercing marth as it is...if i don't have the option to light shield i feel like falco's pressure is going to break me down..but then i don't know..maybe if falco could never laser he can't get the pressure to actually damage your shield. I will play with it some more though since everyone keeps raving about it.

the other thing is if that powershield trick is so good, why doesn't armada actually powershield falco's lasers with peach? is peach's shield too small? i always thought the problem with powershielding was the light shield coming up first and blocking it rather than a problem of shield size

What's the lightshield removal trick?

I'm not sure that the difficulty in powershielding lasers come from the lightshield interfering laser; I think it's strictly a timing thing but I could be wrong.



Kind of related:

Lately I have been thinking that powershielding lasers isn't something to rely on playing the neutral game with. I feel that powershielding lasers relies on being (quite) familiar with the Falco's laser patterns and timings, and the Falco can easily mix up these timings once he realizes that you're aiming for a powershielding and can then get you to shield needlessly and set you up for, well, getting stuck in shield. Of course, that's not to say that more Marths shouldn't aim to powershield more since it is a strong tool; it just doesn't seem like it is something that can ultimately be relied on for playing the neutral game against Falco.

Also, it's incredibly hard to be consistent with powershielding in the first place IMO... even without Falco mixing up laser timings, I just feel like powershielding lasers is just too inconsistent to become anything more than a trick/tool that will work once in a while (though if you're on fire with your powershields, it can definitely be used to force Falco to truly hesitate to laser which can work REALLY well in your favor).

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

rising fair is so good against falco... fair over a laser, if falco moved forward you hit him and combo, if not you can platform waveland mixup.