Important Carefully Ask PPMD about the Tiara Guy

[MT_]

To follow up on what Tai posted, I feel like the optimal "style" of play is one that is difficult to predict/tell when switching between offensive and defensive play. Like Tai said, a defensive play can only be truly effective when the threat of offensive play is present; I guess it's pretty a pretty generic conclusion, but essentially what I'm trying to say is, be offensive when they expect you to be defensive, and be defensive when they expect you to be offensive.

I guess. lol.

 

[Beat!]

I've always felt like offense is ultimately better than defense, because you're taking matters into your own hands and creating advantageous positions yourself, instead of having to "rely" on reacting to your opponents decisions. It also generally gives you more room to work with. Not to mention that it's easier to fluster your opponent if you're pressuring constantly.

 

[Divinokage]

That is only if you are able to do that. You can't just apply pressure when you want to, you have to adapt to the other player's style and beat it.. sometimes one style will counter another one so it's kinda hard to maintain momentum sometimes. It's cool because you have to define your own way of playing with your own hands indeed whatever it is defensive or offensive, it should be what best suits you. So pretty much, you have to have a good balance between the 2 and notice when it's good to attack or when it's good to defend.

 

[Dart!]

all about dat unreadability in your own style.

 

[Cactuar]

Playing a completely unreadable style leads to the opponent playing more random in response as their actions become guesses rather than reactions.

There is as long section of writing that goes with this, but I am lazy atm and don't feel like writing it lol.

 

[Dr Peepee]

What should I watch out for in a Marth VS Young Link/Pikachu matchup?

YL will throw things and you should swat them away or shield/dodge them. Then you pin him into a corner and don't let him get away.

Pikachu is fast so you can't just swing as much vs him. Watch for Nair approaches, defensive Uairs(especially OOS) and grabs by the edge.

Playing a completely unreadable style leads to the opponent playing more random in response as their actions become guesses rather than reactions.

There is as long section of writing that goes with this, but I am lazy atm and don't feel like writing it lol.

Do you believe someone can play an "unreadable" style?

Do you believe it's better to be mostly structured but layered and conscious of which layers you have been exposing to the opponent recently?

 

[Cactuar]

There are exceptions to everything obviously, but as a general statement, nothing is unreadable. It is mostly determined by the opponent's ability to read. You can only make yourself resistant to interpretation, but regardless of speed, there is a moment of commitment for every action and thus a moment that the action can be read. If the opponent's ability to recognize that moment is poor, then you can become unreadable to that opponent, but that doesn't mean you would be unreadable to all opponents.

 

[Bones0]

I prefer being aggressive with Marth because I think it essentially buffs all his defensive options as a results, and I think he flows better from aggressive to defensive than vice versa. It seems like his defensive game is all about waiting for the opponent to approach too far, but if you're too far away for them to hit you, you're probably too far away to hit them. So if you're just DDing looking for a grab off of a missed SHFFL, you can never really just decide to run at them with a fair. There's too much room in between you to surprise them with it. On the opposite end, going from aggressive to defensive is really natural. If you are tipping their shield with aerials and they are under a lot of pressure to do something because of the threat of getting hit and grabbed at all times, that's when they reach their breaking point and have to make a decision, and trying to be aggressive out of this situation is usually pretty easy for Marth to deal with. If you late fair someone's shield, they can't really do any attack OoS because Marth can DD grab or DD aerial virtually any attack. With this threat in mind, most people revert to defensive mode in order to escape Marth pressure with things like rolling, spot dodging, and extended shielding time in hopes that you'll fsmash their shield. All of those options are fairly weak, which begs the question why Marth's aren't trying to force the situation more?

 

[Niko45]

I think aggressive play is very key for Marth at times in order to open up your defensive game but I also think Marth pays very very dearly for whiffing anything so it's not something you can really do endlessly before it'll catch up with you imo. It's more about passive aggression to me. Staying in their face without actually committing.

I mean, in some matchups, like say Falcon or Samus, they literally are just waiting for you to whiff anything so they can actually do something to you. So in some matchups I think being aggressive can be really detrimental. Against spacies it's very good.

Marth doesn't have very long lasting hitboxes or safe "strings" that he can just throw out there so his entire offensive game is vulnerable to sidestepping and shield camping, which any character can do, and it's a big part of why people think low/mid tiers do relatively well against Marth. In fact, I think that's why some Marths (myself included) have big problems with "bad" characters because they feel like they're Marth and they should be able to just roll over this inferior character but Marth's moveset is just not designed to do that to even the worst of characters so my new mentality against those characters is to play super gay and never commit first, etc.

 

[Aber]

This topic of M2K being defensive/campy was brought up before and it makes no sense to me. I think this reputation just came about because of his gimping abilities...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fsqlstAQeg8

How is this defensive/campy???

Also in general I HATE when people are labeled as "defensive" or "offensive" players.....Smash doesn't work like that. Both defensive and offensive strategies have to be implemented depending on situation/opponent/stage position/instinct.

 

[Bones0]

Not sure why you're acting like defensive/campy is somehow bad. It's just his style, and linking to him destroying people doesn't really support your case. Watch M2K play people on his level from recent tourneys and he always plays more defensive than offensive.

 

[Aber]

Not sure why you're acting like defensive/campy is somehow bad. It's just his style, and linking to him destroying people doesn't really support your case. Watch M2K play people on his level from recent tourneys and he always plays more defensive than offensive.

Who's saying its bad??

It's great when it works and offensive maneuvers are great when they work
I argue with people being classified at merely defensive or offensive (too black and white)

The community in general has put negativeness on playing defensive/campy....I personally have no problem with that strategy and think there is a counter to just about everything in smash

 

[Bones0]

You were the first person to say anything about being "campy" which has a very negative connotation, so I figured you were just upset with people calling him defensive. I don't think people try to classify every player as offensive or defensive in black and white, but there's definitely a pretty clear distinction. M2K plays very defensively, and Mango plays very aggressively. They aren't bad or limited to only those play styles, but it's by far their most popular styles. Mango is an aggressor most of the time, and M2K is defensive most of the time. Just watch his first stock vs. Isai from that video. He just spaced like crazy until Isai fell into his grab.

Also, what state do you live in (for the SSBPD)?

 

[ShroudedOne]

Well, when you label something as offensive or defensive, it means that they leans towards a certain side of play. Mango certainly employs defensive strats, but he's overall more offensive, which is why he is labeled as such. The same for other players.

But I agree with you generally.

 

[Aber]

I am from Connecticut

 

[Bones0]

Thanks. If you could flag your friends for locations and names that'd help too. :D

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SauWiwkELgY

Mango appears to really like the rising fair aggression...

 

[Bones0]

What? He got punished for like every single one in the first game (except the one he followed up with a late fair). >.>

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Are you smoking? I just went thru the match again, first stock he did 2 rising fair and both connected. On the 3rd stock low percent he does another and gets away free even though jman CCd it. A few seconds later he does another one, and after he gets shined but I'm not sure if it should even count as mango didn't do a 2nd fair and completely disregarded the spacing he had been maintaining previously. Later in the third stock mango does a fullhop rising fair, and that is the first time he is punished for a rising fair. On the last stock, mango connects with a rising fair but jman is so low% that he can punish without CCing and jabbed mango. Mango continues to SH rising fair their entire 5 game set.

thats not even counting all the rising fair recoveries mango used (dj rising fair to the platform)

 

[_eternal]

Couple of questions:

- Where is dolphin slash's sweetspot? Is reverse different? See img1, img2.

- How does the Luigi MU work? Dtilt seems good. Approaching with falling fair doesn't feel safe for some reason (dsmash oos is a big option for him, right?). I'm guessing I should respect his WD range. Does fthrow/dthrow -> tipper mixup work or should I just not grab?

I like this talk about rising fair btw. Don't have anything to add but I want to see where this goes.

 

[Bones0]

If you want to use rising fair, be my guest. I'd rather just space a split second longer and late fair. If they are already airborne or in a combo, rising fair is great. I just think it sucks for pressuring because it's so easily shielded and yields very few follow-up opportunities.

 

[Dr Peepee]

I don't think I saw Mango use rising Fair too much as an approach. I saw it used mainly as a counterattack or what he used to win exchanges after baiting Jman to come close.

4:21- Mango comes down, does a Nair bait, then does a rising Fair and just keeps doing it because Jman is now stuck close to Mango and keeps attacking because if he doesn't then he probably fears Mango will pressure him first or some other similar psychological thing. The point is that the first rising Fair came from a bait though.

Mango likes rising SH Fairs, but the FH ones I'm not so sure about. Even then, it doesn't really seem like aggression from what I've watched(first 2 games).

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

the biggest problem with late fair is whats going on before you fair: nothing. You are airborn for ~26 frames without an active hitbox until the very end. Rising fair gives you the same late fair possibilities but with coverage at the beginning.

 

[.Chipmunk.]

the biggest problem with late fair is whats going on before you fair: nothing. You are airborn for ~26 frames without an active hitbox until the very end. Rising fair gives you the same late fair possibilities but with coverage at the beginning.

Except that after you fair the first time your opponents thinks, 'okay, he cant really do anything for a while'. When you jump and do nothing, you can still toss out the fair at any time really so they have to wait a second to get that extra bit of read.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

the lag on a rising fair is generally not something that can be reacted to in a direct punish, the exceptions are if its shielded or CC'd.

Idk how many people do it, but it is generally a good idea to challenge marth early when he is doing his sh late fairs, especially at low percents. If say a fox shffl nairs at marth near the peak of his jump, marth can either take the hit or do a fair at that time to stop fox. If fox is mid% or lower, he can recover and punish marth before he is out of his lcancel lag. If instead marth did a rising fair, he would have covered the space fox needed to be in to challenge the jump.


Anyways, i know i'm arguing for it, but i don't want people to think i'm saying rising fair all over the place or anything. It is really good, and marths don't do it enough anymore, thats all im saying. I remember a discussion on the marth boards a while back (maybe a year ago) and a noob asked when SHDF was useful and pretty much everyone said it sucks and not to use it.

 

[Bones0]

Yeah, exactly. Marth's hitboxes are effective in Melee because what other characters gain from hitboxes that have extended time, Marth has extended space. Being able to threaten from a distance is effectively the same as being able to throw out a long hitbox that stays in their way. The big difference is Marth has really weird commitment levels. Poorly spaced aerials require FULL commitment because if you don't hit them, you have a lot of lag. Well spaced aerials allow him to throw out almost any aerial and be safe from 90% of counter attacks out of shield. The occasional WD OoS utilt from a Doc/Mario or WD OoS dash attack from Sheik may land, but they all rely on you fairing early because if you late fair, you can (as far as I know) ALWAYS get off a utilt or at the VERY least get your shield up before anything remotely threatening happens.

Even if Marth does an empty hop with no plan of doing any aerial at all, what can they do? The fastest thing they can do OoS towards you is a WD, and you can pretty easily react to that and fair them. They can roll away while you wait, but that's just giving up huge amounts of space with virtually no risk on Marth's part. Falcon is one of the few (only?) characters that can actually surprise a Marth floating in his SH with a quick move (nair/uair) except, obviously, another Marth. Everyone else is mostly stuck with the choice of stay shielded or GTFO. And Marth has plenty of "**** you" responses to people who do try and run from him. Whether it's a simple land and run up grab, dash attack, or WD forward to continue pressure, any time anyone shields against a Marth SH in tipper range it's disastrous for them the majority of the time.


As for when rising fair (or SHDF specifically) is useful, I think it's fine if you can hit-confirm or if you are the one on the defensive. If I am shielding vs. a fast ground character, I'd often opt for fade away double fairs over WD back because it's very safe and there's always the chance you'll catch them chasing you. I think using it as any sort of aggressive pressure (even when they're not in shield) is a tactic that's falling by the wayside because people are simply better at observing Marth and punishing his laggy *** aerials when they are used too far off the ground.

 

[ShroudedOne]

I imagine that Falco could laser you if you empty hop, but that's not the worst thing that could happen, so long as you aren't jumping within range of an aerial (duh).

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Even if Marth does an empty hop with no plan of doing any aerial at all, what can they do? The fastest thing they can do OoS towards you is a WD, and you can pretty easily react to that and fair them. They can roll away while you wait, but that's just giving up huge amounts of space with virtually no risk on Marth's part.

WDing towards marth into shield or CC is pretty annoying for him. Also, rolling into him in this case is pretty obnoxious. Or you can just WD backwards OoS and suddenly marth's spacing is F'd.

Falcon is one of the few (only?) characters that can actually surprise a Marth floating in his SH with a quick move (nair/uair) except, obviously, another Marth. Everyone else is mostly stuck with the choice of stay shielded or GTFO.

Ganon (uair), Sheik (fair/bair), fox/falco (bair, if backwards), puff (fair), etc...

And the characters that don't have an OoS attack that can threaten marth's range can simply WD back a small distance and be in great position (samus, peach).



I just think late fair is a really gimmicky pattern.

 

[Dr Peepee]

Hmmm Sveet has convinced me to try less delayed Fair and see how it goes.

 

[Stylez]

the lag on a rising fair is generally not something that can be reacted to in a direct punish, the exceptions are if its shielded or CC'd.
I remember a discussion on the marth boards a while back (maybe a year ago) and a noob asked when SHDF was useful and pretty much everyone said it sucks and not to use it.

What was their reason to not use it? I always thought it was good whenever you catch the other player off guard, or as a quick follow up because it could lead into so much more. I thought it was something that keeps you in control as the aggressor.
If it's easily punishable, I might rethink using it to swat away projectiles.

 

[Niko45]

Late fair is ok, def not that good or really abusable or anything. You can get completely ***** if called on it as it puts you in the worst defensive position possible (no cc, asdi, etc). Some people don't just shield automatically cause Marth jumped.

You can space rising stationary or retreating double fairs on shields safely on just about anybody and you get good mixups out of it. Fair fair utilt. Fair fair dtilt. Fair fair dash away. Fair fair grab. Etc.

 

[Dr Peepee]

Tried more rising SH Fair vs Puff today, and had success.

Good call Sveet Ima play around with more of this lol.

 

[Aber]

Couple of questions:

- Where is dolphin slash's sweetspot? Is reverse different? See img1, img2.

- How does the Luigi MU work? Dtilt seems good. Approaching with falling fair doesn't feel safe for some reason (dsmash oos is a big option for him, right?). I'm guessing I should respect his WD range. Does fthrow/dthrow -> tipper mixup work or should I just not grab?

I like this talk about rising fair btw. Don't have anything to add but I want to see where this goes.

You can't Dsmash OoS (maybe you meant up smash)

Stay grounded and dont mindlessly move into his facinity cuz he will wd forward into ftilt downsmash and nonsense like that

Also when he gets in the air don't let him down......Sorta like peach

 

[Shroomed]

SH fair to uair is really good imo. Especially against falcon because they like to try to nair after your fair. If you space it your uair will hit and setup for combos. I REALLY like using SH double aerials to grab.

 

[knightpraetor]

lol@ pp finding new success against jiggs with rising fair.....how quickly pp forgets..

you do realize that on that first night that we stayed up all night and you played mahone for hours...you lost like two matches....then "figured out" the matchup...which mostly consisted of you dashdancing ridiculously perfect and approaching with rising fairs and defending with a mix of dash attack and grab...

it just seems really funny for you to say that you are going to experiment with rising fairs...

sometimes i think i study your marth more than you do..

 

[Dr Peepee]

I forget a TON of my own stuff unless I write it down lmao

=p

I'm getting better about it lol

 

[knightpraetor]

yeah i can understand that..i write everything important down too

 

[Niko45]

SH fair to uair is really good imo. Especially against falcon because they like to try to nair after your fair. If you space it your uair will hit and setup for combos. I REALLY like using SH double aerials to grab.

This is a really good point. Since fair starts above Marth and up air starts basically right in front of him, up air is faster for covering yourself after the first fair, and I can imagine that there are possibly punishes on double fair that it helps with.

 

[Dart!]

I forget a TON of my own stuff unless I write it down lmao

=p

I'm getting better about it lol

we will find the secret to the matchup
since it's not a clear do this and win obviously it will take time
keep plugging away peypey

 

[.Chipmunk.]

we will find the secret to the matchup
since it's not a clear do this and win obviously it will take time
keep plugging away peypey

What matchup, Puff? Pfft. I got that **** on lock