Important Carefully Ask PPMD about the Tiara Guy

[knightpraetor]

well yesterday i tried weak hit upair combos a lot and they seemed really good...the main thing is not to try to hit them on the opponent when they are too high...

but yesterday I was making sure to not take too many uptilts/ strong upairs early so that i could hit weak hit upairs on FD and was able to chain two of them pretty consistently..i don't think it technically combos but i doubt they can jump out without getting hit by the 2nd one...

and chip arguing helps convince people so it never hurts..but i'm already convinced by trying it that it's pretty good..i really think most marths just miss it because they try it on opponents that are a bit too high..if they are high up even if you're fastfalling the upair hit it probably doesn't allow time to get back up there in time...

but i had really really high consistency with weak upair hits yesterday and was averaging about 15% higher damage output on my FD combos than i normally get on anything that I end in Fsmash instead of aerials

anyway i decided to use it more..but i will at some point test it in training mode, because there are definitely a lot of situations i've seen where it doesn't true combo..i'm not really worried about jump out, just shine..but i think that you can just space around that

on another topic...i saw some videos of some top marths tech chasing the top platform with dair on tech roll in/away..and that just seems horribly bad after testing it...

they just DI off the platform and bounce...am i doing something wrong? if i hit earlier can I prevent them from doing this?

cause as it is...it doesn't matter if i hit a dair on them if they end up on the side platform and below me before i recover. My training partner then immediately drops to the ground before i can get down (since he's a fastfaller) and then has advantage on me.

I was thinking that maybe it would be more optimal to only use dair on the top platform for tech in place and to waveland to cover rolls and just grab..i did that twice and there wasn't all this stupid risk of getting pushed off by my dair hit and ending up below me

also, i tested this:
"
Depends on how you do Dtilt then. I just run up close to most DD people(they all run away) and Dtilt. This results in a shield or dash away the majority of the time. As Marth, I really enjoy both of those things because Falcon has less options then and it's much easier to control a Falcon with less options. S2J never once Nair'd/stomped me, but I guess no one will accept that as a solid anecdote despite him being a good player, so I'll just say you should try Dtilt'ing closer to the opponent and seeing how that goes based on my word. If Falcon jumps before you do the move, then free Fairs/other things are cool to me lol.
"

a lot yesterday in friendlies...it seems really solid..except that i don't really understand why falcons give you enough room to get running dtilt..they just lose all the space on the stage..

feel like they should just be dashdancing closer, but there are definitely times when it comes up....especially on big stages like FD/PS...i guess they just don't want to fight marth near the edge so then they give him too much space.

 

[Inty17]

Am I the only Marth on the planet that intentionally invisible ceilings people with counter to gimp them? It's soooooooooo trolly and good. And it kills spacies on Yoshi's

 

[Dr Peepee]

I was gonna test Dair tech chasing but atm I have no comment on that KP haha.

Also yeah Falcons won't DD close to Marths because they're afraid of his moves and want Marth to throw out something then get punished, so it's fun to just run up to them and Dtilt lol.


@Inty: I certainly don't do it, but I like the idea of doing it lol. Maybe I'll try it out....

 

[.Chipmunk.]

I was gonna test Dair tech chasing but atm I have no comment on that KP haha.

Also yeah Falcons won't DD close to Marths because they're afraid of his moves and want Marth to throw out something then get punished, so it's fun to just run up to them and Dtilt lol.


@Inty: I certainly don't do it, but I like the idea of doing it lol. Maybe I'll try it out....

Is run up grab not an option on a Falcon?

 

[Dr Peepee]

It can be, but I don't like doing it very much since Falcon likes to run away when I run at him. Also, unless Falcon is by the edge, I don't think Marth gets as big of a reward off of a grab on Falcon as he does on many other characters because of Falcon's weight and Dair(if Marth wanted to throw Falcon upward to juggle).

 

[leffen]

While most Marths complain about Dair not spiking in PAL, I LOVE dair in PAL.

Dair hits straight down in PAL (compared to NTSC where it hits at an angle) which makes it GODLIKE for tech chasing, especially on platforms. In NTSC, you can usually just DI his Dair and slipoff the closes edge/platform or simply land too far away for a good tech chase.

In PAL, they'll hit the ground land in grab range (if they were in the air) and if you hit them on the ground it pops them up PERFECTLY. From there you can easily combo a tipper fsmash/dsmash/usmash (all works at kill%) or you can just continue the combo with a (weak) uair or dair (->charged dsmash techchase;D). Your dair covers the entire platform so its stupidly easy to cover all options.

Finishing off combos (esp vs cf/ganondorf, but also against sheik/spacies) with a weak uair->[platform tech]-> dair tech chase ->dsmash/usmash/fsmash/up b is sooooo good on platform stages and your best option imo for doing a "true" 0-death combo.

Marth doesnt have this in ntsc tho, his dair tech chase sucks there lol.
Together with all of the other top tier characters nerfs (sheik, fox) Marth is imho clearly better in PAL.

 

[Dr Peepee]

I didn't know that about the Dair angle Leffen, cool to know. So you don't think Marth should Dair tech chase in NTSC then? Should he just look for a grab, or a really delayed Uair/tippered Fair, or just do different things?

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

I have been theorizing a bit about marth lately... I think marths have too quickly discounted his best move: fair.

Strengths: Disjointed, fast start, low lag, combos.
Weaknesses: Can be shield *****, can be CC'd, some moves can trade or win.


Rising fair is rarely used in neutral, but why? It covers quite a lot of space and leaves various attack and retreat options open. The place to use it is not while in a cross stage stand off or in defense: it is an aggressive move. Marth out ranges everyone, so if you have them semi-pinned (say, you are invading their half of the map) a rising fair forces them to shield. They have frame advantage, but you have mobility. WD OoS stuff can be accounted for either with a dj->waveland or an aerial (uair/dair if they encroach or [dj-optional] fair). The only thing that is necessary in this case is that you cannot be attacked directly from their shield.

This is the kind of thing that I was thinking about when I made the post about dash forward retreating fair. By retreating the rising fair, you are generally not in danger and have various follow up routes. One of marth's biggest weaknesses in the current metagame is that he has a hard time maintaining or gaining positioning. There are generally two ways to punish marth's approach: stuff it or stay out of the way and punish, with the latter being the most common. In that way, marth's approaches are equivalent to all-ins in starcraft; you run in guns blazing saying "ok one of us is going to get hit!". I am not a fan of all-ins, they are too shallow. A solution to this is to set up position with a rising fair when they have given you a certain amount of space.

Ideally, a rising fair should be done near or directly below the approaching edge of a platform. This minimizes horizontal and vertical escape routes as well as gives you head cover and an escape route of your own (dj->waveland). If your opponent has retreated enough for you to be able to dash to that location and do a retreating rising fair, you have sucessfully taken a lot of their space and fortified your position.

Now, I don't think fair is the best move for all situations, but it is certainly a move that is way too underused at the moment. It has the range of ganon's fair, much less lag, and has the ability to stuff any move in the game if timed right. In the current metagame, people don't challenge marth on the ground very often and instead abuse the holes in his vertical attacks. Fair, i propose, is the solution to that problem.

 

[Beat!]

Yeah, tech chasing with Dair is really good

My only "complaint" is that Dair is such a cool finisher in NTSC =(

 

[Dr Peepee]

I have been theorizing a bit about marth lately... I think marths have too quickly discounted his best move: fair.

Strengths: Disjointed, fast start, low lag, combos.
Weaknesses: Can be shield *****, can be CC'd, some moves can trade or win.


Rising fair is rarely used in neutral, but why? It covers quite a lot of space and leaves various attack and retreat options open. The place to use it is not while in a cross stage stand off or in defense: it is an aggressive move. Marth out ranges everyone, so if you have them semi-pinned (say, you are invading their half of the map) a rising fair forces them to shield. They have frame advantage, but you have mobility. WD OoS stuff can be accounted for either with a dj->waveland or an aerial (uair/dair if they encroach or [dj-optional] fair). The only thing that is necessary in this case is that you cannot be attacked directly from their shield.

This is the kind of thing that I was thinking about when I made the post about dash forward retreating fair. By retreating the rising fair, you are generally not in danger and have various follow up routes. One of marth's biggest weaknesses in the current metagame is that he has a hard time maintaining or gaining positioning. There are generally two ways to punish marth's approach: stuff it or stay out of the way and punish, with the latter being the most common. In that way, marth's approaches are equivalent to all-ins in starcraft; you run in guns blazing saying "ok one of us is going to get hit!". I am not a fan of all-ins, they are too shallow. A solution to this is to set up position with a rising fair when they have given you a certain amount of space.

Ideally, a rising fair should be done near or directly below the approaching edge of a platform. This minimizes horizontal and vertical escape routes as well as gives you head cover and an escape route of your own (dj->waveland). If your opponent has retreated enough for you to be able to dash to that location and do a retreating rising fair, you have sucessfully taken a lot of their space and fortified your position.

Now, I don't think fair is the best move for all situations, but it is certainly a move that is way too underused at the moment. It has the range of ganon's fair, much less lag, and has the ability to stuff any move in the game if timed right. In the current metagame, people don't challenge marth on the ground very often and instead abuse the holes in his vertical attacks. Fair, i propose, is the solution to that problem.

Fair is AMAZING.


Another "weakness" of Marth's Fair is that it starts high and swings in the middle/lower later on. This is a problem that many Marths aren't fully conscious about but it makes the effective range of the Fair much smaller AND later than what it seems. This weakness is dealt with when rising with Fair because the part of the Fair that is useful(the lower part) will be connecting/threatening just as Marth enters his opponents' dangerous zones.

I believe that, if someone gets under you and you have to DJ waveland, then you have been screwed over by executing this maneuver though. Marth is not well-suited for handling opponents attacking below him.

You say that Fair should be done by the edge of platforms. You also say that Marth has trouble gaining positioning, and that this tactic should not be used when Marth doesn't have lots of stage. So then, what would you suggest Marth do to gain stage control if not this tactic?

 

[TheCrimsonBlur]

Sveet, I am a really really (really) big fan of dashing rising retreating fair. People who know me hear me talk about it a lot.

I honestly believe the main reason it isn't commonplace atm is because its so technically intensive. And I don't mean in the Fox/Falco sense. Being able to have full aerial control during your retreat, getting the rising fair immediately (this is very important because you will start fading back during your retreat and if the fair doesn't come out on frame 1 or 2 your range is severely limited), spacing it so it tippers at every distance of your dash, keeping track of which direction you are facing (a lot of times you'll get a retreating bair), and implementing proper ingame reactions to their response (hitconfirm fair -> combo, shielded fair->waveland/fastfall/falling fair or uair, etc). Its a lot to take in and not easy to implement.

Its not perfect, so its not the answer to everything, but its hella good. Not being able to do it consistently is often indicative of a common problem I see among a lot of Marth mains: a separation between sword and movement modes with awkward transitions inbetween. Most Marths lack variety because of this; in stationary they threaten ground moves, in initial dash grab and grab only, and in full run dash attack/dtilt. I think the better people get the more they naturally pick up on these threats, and snuff them appropriately; adding a kooky or uncommon element like a rising retreating fair in those situations can definitely add more depth to the puzzle.

 

[knightpraetor]

hmm, i feel like marth has trouble gaining stage control when he's boxed out near the ledge, and i would risk using this then....

i am bad at neutral when fox doesn't approach...i just dash attack, grab for aggression then..but mostly just camp a mix of dashdance and aerial.. i bet if they give you lots of space you can use running dtilt like pp was talking about for falcon...but foxes typically...just approach

i keep thinking that at neutral i can just bait out their approach with aerials at different spacings...but jumping too far in gets ***** because they get under the aerial, so i feel like i only take a cm per jump if i'm doing it safely..

uggh..i really want to learn how to play neutral without camping as marth or going for only grab and dash attack...

Edit: is this why mango started playing spacies? he just wanted the option to truly approach relatively safely???

 

[leffen]

Marth can still tech chase in NTSC, but its way more situational =/


If you're talking about dash->retreating fair, why the hell aren't you talking about dash->SHIELD->Retreating fair/nair? Its much better in most cases and it covers the options that approaching nair/fair/grab/dashattack doesn't much better than normal dash retreat fair

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

In this picture marth is being defensive, being under his platform and ready to dash back and grab an approach. His opponent is not particularly aggressive, but isn't fortified.


At this point marth has the option to move forward, generally marths do a dtilt, fsmash or dash attack when moving forward like this so the opponent gives room in order to punish the attack.

Instead marth goes forward to take the space and sets himself up with a retreating fair.

Here marth has done a fair instead of a dtilt. Not necessarily "better" but definitely "different" and requires different punishes. I think it has better anti-escape coverage.



Yes it has failed if you have to waveland escape, but it is at least an escape option and not a direct punish. After the waveland you can falling aerial, dj->waveland on the top platform or waveland towards the edge and defend from there.

 

[TheCrimsonBlur]

leffen, shieldstops are awesome and an integral part of the new age Marth metagame (see: TAI, pewpewU who love it). Its not explicitly required for dashing retreating fair (a short hop back has the exact same effect), but it can definitely help make it easier if you are struggling with the jump back motion.

As always with shieldstops though, you've gotta make sure you jump out of the shield quickly so you don't lose frames sitting in shield.

 

[.Chipmunk.]

Okay, how do you guys take anything Leffen says seriously with that Yoshi snickering like that?

 

[Tee ay eye]

shieldstopping is probably better in most cases, but if you don't shield, it'll probably be more threatening, and therefore, it would be a useful mixup for baiting people. if someone sees you shield, they should know that you can no longer dash straight at them (you can still WD out, but that's still beside the point), and they might be less prone to running into you. if you act straight out of a dashdance, they might be slightly more inclined to run at you and into your attack.

 

[Tee ay eye]

Fair is AMAZING.


Another "weakness" of Marth's Fair is that it starts high and swings in the middle/lower later on. This is a problem that many Marths aren't fully conscious about but it makes the effective range of the Fair much smaller AND later than what it seems. This weakness is dealt with when rising with Fair because the part of the Fair that is useful(the lower part) will be connecting/threatening just as Marth enters his opponents' dangerous zones.

I believe that, if someone gets under you and you have to DJ waveland, then you have been screwed over by executing this maneuver though. Marth is not well-suited for handling opponents attacking below him.

You say that Fair should be done by the edge of platforms. You also say that Marth has trouble gaining positioning, and that this tactic should not be used when Marth doesn't have lots of stage. So then, what would you suggest Marth do to gain stage control if not this tactic?

are you saying that marth should approach with rising fair?

 

[Bones0]

You guys should get off rising fair's ****. Late fair is where it's at. Watch some M2K vids, ya scrubs.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

u forgot the

 

[Bones0]

u forgot the

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u185QWhZYLc

I can't get the BB Code stuff for YouTube to work. D:

 

[Bones0]

Sad face.

 

[Tee ay eye]

thats cuz youre not a mod

 

[Bones0]

thats cuz youre not a mod

I figured that out. :/

[yt]u185QWhZYLc[/yt]

Quote-ception?

Damn it. It works on the Preview Changes screen. >_<

 

[Dr Peepee]

Marth can still tech chase in NTSC, but its way more situational =/


If you're talking about dash->retreating fair, why the hell aren't you talking about dash->SHIELD->Retreating fair/nair? Its much better in most cases and it covers the options that approaching nair/fair/grab/dashattack doesn't much better than normal dash retreat fair

The shield is meant to stop Marth exactly where you want to, right? I don't know of any immediate advantages beyond just stopping Marth sooner though...

are you saying that marth should approach with rising fair?

Nah I don't think so normally, but approaching with rising/medium SH Fair is pretty useful once in a while.

I figured that out. :/




Quote-ception?

Damn it. It works on the Preview Changes screen. >_<

LOL

 

[.Chipmunk.]

The shield is meant to stop Marth exactly where you want to, right? I don't know of any immediate advantages beyond just stopping Marth sooner though...

Well you still slide when you shield. So I agree with you, I don't see a point in shield stopping once you've broken into a run when you could simply crouch to stop yourself unless you're worried about the opponent attacking. Doing it just to do a reverse fair seems silly to me. Or is the point to make the opponent see the shield and react to it? In which case jumping right away is pointless as well.

 

[Bones0]

Pretty sure you can jump further back if you shield stop first. I know with Falco that shield stop bair goes significantly further behind him than just jumping out of a dash or a run will (and I know I'm doing a jump-back, not a straight jump because Falco does a backflip).

 

[TheCrimsonBlur]

shieldstopping is probably better in most cases, but if you don't shield, it'll probably be more threatening, and therefore, it would be a useful mixup for baiting people. if someone sees you shield, they should know that you can no longer dash straight at them (you can still WD out, but that's still beside the point), and they might be less prone to running into you. if you act straight out of a dashdance, they might be slightly more inclined to run at you and into your attack.

TAI, I am not talking about those shieldstops where you stop and evaluate/react. Rather a quick shieldstop, where you barely see the shield go up.

The advantage over shorthopping back is consistency. You likely lose a couple frames going from shield->jump, but it makes the motion much easier; you can use A for fair more comfortably for example.

Well you still slide when you shield. So I agree with you, I don't see a point in shield stopping once you've broken into a run when you could simply crouch to stop yourself unless you're worried about the opponent attacking. Doing it just to do a reverse fair seems silly to me. Or is the point to make the opponent see the shield and react to it? In which case jumping right away is pointless as well.

We are primarily talking about out of initial dash, though I suppose in full run it is useful too.

Think of it like how Zhu or other Falcos use shield stops in their laser patterns.

Pretty sure you can jump further back if you shield stop first. I know with Falco that shield stop bair goes significantly further behind him than just jumping out of a dash or a run will (and I know I'm doing a jump-back, not a straight jump because Falco does a backflip).

This is not true.

 

[Niko45]

Marth may be worse in NTSC, but he's way more badass. That's what counts.

 

[.Chipmunk.]

Marth may be worse in NTSC, but he's way more badass. That's what counts.

Worse? Pfft. Marth can tech chase with Dair on platforms just fine in NTSC.

 

[Niko45]

dair to dair kills are my flavor of the week

 

[Divinokage]

Dair into tipper is pretty mean too.

 

[ChinesePanda777]

Does anyone have tips with Marth VS Young Link and Marth VS Pikachu matchups?

The hell? Are you playing Indigestible Wad? haha

Sorry this is kinda late and my limited experience against a really good one/giving advice but:

Young Link - If it's super campy, be super patient. Find an opening and juggle with up-airs and up-tilts or whatever. Obviously have to recognize when he's out of stun and might go for a dair. Bait it and try and get any punishment you can.

Pikachu - Similar thing, up-throw/tilt/airs work really well to juggle and get easy percent. I kinda treat him like a spacey in that he can combo you pretty well, is really fast, and can gimp you off stage. Against lesser Pika's, teeter at the very edge of the stage and F-smash during his Up-B. I think they can't truly sweetspot without coming above the ledge so they'll get hit and die. Not 100% on this but it's worked for me a stupid amount in the past.

Dair into tipper is pretty mean too.

This and double dips are my favorites

 

[Shroomed]

I feel like I have a lot to say but I can't articulate it well LOL

Does anyone else feel like aggressive Marth is way better than defensive? The only reason Marth is good is because of how he can outrange the entire cast (aside from projectiles). M2K's Marth is really defensive (until he gets a grab) and I think he'd do a LOT better if he was aggressive because he has great spacing. If you play defensive I feel it gives your opponent a chance to look for holes, while if you space aggressively it's way more dependent on you making a mistake.

Maybe I just like aggressive over defensive in general.

 

[Dr Peepee]

in a way, Marth has to be somewhat aggressive because he has to at least set up a zone close to someone in order to bait them.

I do not know how I think Marth should be played yet, but I would say you certainly value aggression over passive play.

Playing Marth aggressively is really good to me because people can't really escape your range once you're all over them, but it's hard to get inside with Marth as he's not quite fast enough in any way(mobility, jump speed, or overall attack speed).

Defense with Marth is just as fine though when done correctly. Marth gets to ensure his slower attack speed is compensated by how big most of his moves are and he can control an approach through effective zoning and solid movement abilities.

 

[.Chipmunk.]

I feel like I have a lot to say but I can't articulate it well LOL

Does anyone else feel like aggressive Marth is way better than defensive? The only reason Marth is good is because of how he can outrange the entire cast (aside from projectiles). M2K's Marth is really defensive (until he gets a grab) and I think he'd do a LOT better if he was aggressive because he has great spacing. If you play defensive I feel it gives your opponent a chance to look for holes, while if you space aggressively it's way more dependent on you making a mistake.

Maybe I just like aggressive over defensive in general.

I was gonna make a post saying pretty much that exact same thing but more specifically geared towards approaching in general. We're all taught not to really approach all that much, and if you look at any other character's MU guide it basically says wait for Marth to approach, but after looking at it a little more closely I believe they all mean to say 'wait for marth to lose his space advantage'. Which, if we begin to approach regularly but keep our spacing priority, we'll most likely begin to fool opponents into tossing out moves that are either unsafe or laggy because we've kept spacing but fooled them into thinking we haven't because we've approached. When you're on the defensive, every is conscious of Marth's spacing but not so much when Marth is out for blood.

That's much my 2 cents on it. I have a dollar in my pocket but I'm just too lazy to dig it out right now (I could do a whole right up on the advantage of approaching with Marth)

in a way, Marth has to be somewhat aggressive because he has to at least set up a zone close to someone in order to bait them.

I do not know how I think Marth should be played yet, but I would say you certainly value aggression over passive play.

Playing Marth aggressively is really good to me because people can't really escape your range once you're all over them, but it's hard to get inside with Marth as he's not quite fast enough in any way(mobility, jump speed, or overall attack speed).

Defense with Marth is just as fine though when done correctly. Marth gets to ensure his slower attack speed is compensated by how big most of his moves are and he can control an approach through effective zoning and solid movement abilities.

Marth is fast enough to get inside. It's not all that difficult for Marth to get inside because that's where people want him (See above on approaching). If you show that you are willing to approach, people are gonna let you do it because they think they get the advantage out of it. Marth's WD is like...exactly the same as his dash so his movement is one of if not the best in the entire cast. I know I don't have to tell you that, I just wish Marth has Roy's dtilt haha. Dtilt should become a staple move for Marth imo, that move is awesome and covers marth so well. Not just for approaching a falcon like you mentioned, but something like missing an attack on purpose at a certain range to bait the opponent just to eat a tipper dtilt (or a jab). Marth is a character that doesn't really lose the ability to combo a character at high percents because of the weaker hitboxes on the inside of his attacks so nickle and diming damage isn't a problem.

 

[Blood Falcon11]

What should I watch out for in a Marth VS Young Link/Pikachu matchup?

 

[JPOBS]

Marth's metagame for the last 5 years has been based largely on m2k, so its not surprising the default style is defensive with marth.

I don't even now what an aggresive marth is supposed to look like. How do you compensate for his poor effective hitbox:lag ratio?

 

[.Chipmunk.]

Marth's metagame for the last 5 years has been based largely on m2k, so its not surprising the default style is defensive with marth.

I don't even now what an aggresive marth is supposed to look like. How do you compensate for his poor effective hitbox:lag ratio?

You maintain spacing. Tippered attacks are almost always unpunishable. If you are going to get in close you'd wanna use something like a tippered uair or overshoot with a bair or a nair.

 

[Tee ay eye]

shortly before apex, i had put a lot of thought into approaching with marth, with relative success, but not as much as i will try to in the future (e.g. if you watch my games vs tope, i did a lot of risky grabs because that was the main thing i was experimenting with at the time)

even though marth's current metagame (and probably his design as a character) very heavily favors defensive play, the thing is, you're not going to be able to USE your defensive play if your opponent never runs into it. it's okay to default to his defensive game, but it's bad to pigeonhole yourself into only playing defensively because it limits you and makes you more predictable.

if you're able to make good risks and approach correctly, you will make your opponent respect you. if you're able to make them respect the possibility of you approaching, you'll be more able to scare them into making a bad move and falling into the traps you love so much.

IMO, a lot of options in this game aren't good because of how good or efficient they are in a vacuum, but they're good because they condition your opponent into expecting them, which enables you to go back to the things that you're best at.

by the way, i think one of the reasons i beat S2J was because he told me earlier in the day that i played too safely and needed to take more risks/go for more reads. i just adjusted my game accordingly and added a little bit more aggression, and it seems to have worked out well.