Important Carefully Ask PPMD about the Tiara Guy

[Tee ay eye]

i found myself moving forward with it a lot, but sometimes i also just mixed it in with my dtilt

wobbles told me that his most reliable way of getting over dtilt is jumping over it (alternately, he can roll, triangle jump, or do some other IC gimmicky shenanigan), so i think that moving forward sorta telegraphed a dtilt, and then the jab just stuffed his jump attempt.

 

[Dr Peepee]

I see. Wouldn't moving forward into retreating Fair be safer though? I guess if you call that wrong you could get whupped by WD smash though....

Well, couldn't you get more reward for retreating Fair? lol

What about side B?

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

SideB agaisnt anything grounded, get random CC.

 

[Dr Peepee]

I would think jab has a similar problem with CC?

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

It does. But I'm bias against SideB since it happens far more frequently to me.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

tip of marth's jab doesn't get CC'd very well, and sends away. sideb tends to pull them towards you.

 

[Meneks]

Crouch canceling needle camping shiek..

What do?

 

[Bones0]

Learn to tip.

 

[TheCrimsonBlur]

Crouch canceling needle camping shiek..

What do?

dtilt. Shield a needle within wd oos dtilt range and you'll get a dtilt on their shield (usually in the corner). This is exactly the type of situation you should be trying to get in this matchup anyway, so it can be rather rewarding..

(i'm assuming you mean grounded needles since you are talking about crouch cancelling. aerial needles have more...complex answers)

 

[Dr Peepee]

Soooo I really wanted to write up some stuff I learned from Northwest Manifest, but between me managing time poorly and not sleeping much(related to the time management thing lol) it has taken me a while to get time to write about Marth. Now I'm not even sure what I want to talk about anymore lol. I know I wanted to discuss edgeguarding Falco, but I did that already luckily.

I'll start with the more positive thing I remember about playing Marth this trip, and that was that I didn't struggle with Falcon quite as much as I thought I did. Dtilt'ing to force Falcon to move back so you can take stage is great. Playing around with SH Fair tricks on his shield is nice since he can't really beat your options outright then. Grabs are fun too because the tech chases are pretty easy and if Falcon DIs Fthrow in ever he gets Dtilted(another tech chase with more damage or an edgeguard aka free kill). His FH is pretty tough to handle since his Dair is massive and he gets platforms to play around on, but if Marth WDs under Falcon after he jumps then on many stages that is one of the best positions to be in vs Falcon. SH AC Uair(pretty sure it ACs....whatever) and Uptilt and tippered Fair(starts mostly above Marth's head but forces at least a straight up angle if not outward) all do work on Falcon from this position. I think S2J gives me too much free space when I'm Marth though, so I'm not sure how much of this knowledge of Dtilt being an easy answer to him is just S2J not liking Marth or the tactic being really strong anyway. *shrug


I discovered that I am quite weak against Falco though, which I find hilariously ironic, though not really surprising. I've decided I should master powershielding if I want to **** Falco with Marth, but I think I'm missing something beyond that too. I don't like staying grounded for an extended period of time with Marth, I prefer switching between grounded play and some SH shenanigans quite quickly. However, if I ever jump against Falco and call an attack wrongly, then I'm getting shot up and have to DJ to a platform and hope I don't get shine comboed lol.

Whenever I tried to outspace Falco's aerials and SH appropriately, I noticed that Falco's NAIR would actually nick me or trade with my Fair and then I'd get comboed. I think in order to beat Nair I'd have to harder predict it and swing sooner, but that's pretty uncomfortable for me to do. I'll see what people think about that.

Seriously though, Nair gave me a lot of problems. I felt like that was all that I was getting hit by lol. I was thinking I could also DD after taking a laser hit then mash CC counter if he tried to nick me with nair while I'm on the ground but I'm not sure if there are better options?


Also, if you break out of Falco pressure with appropriate shield DI+WD OOS, it's best not to blow your nice break with Fsmash more than once or twice initially. Falco learns to shield quickly when he loses his pressure, so I'd say WD OOS+SH pressure/feints/grabs/mixup this stuff is pretty good. Fsmash is nice out of the WD OOS sometimes though because it catches Falco jumping(can include lasering) or running away if he's just barely reacting to you getting out of his pressure.


Side B gave me mixed success when trying to use it to stop lasers when decently close to Falco. I'm not sure what to say about that yet. I guess test it yourself and see what you think lol. Falco being in the air to shoot can make for some cool side B combos if it works and it can get you ***** if it doesn't, I know that much haha.

Oh yeah, and Axe liked to WD into me whenever I would SH and shield/CC sometimes to **** my spacing(any character). I found that funny, but I could bait it by not always going into him when I jumped and getting free pressure. Definitely something good to keep in mind if you have to play the ditto or wonder why someone is running into you if you do wonder that. I'm willing to bat around more ways to handle this of course.


I think there was supposed to be more, but that's all I remember now+the edgeguarding thing.

 

[KILLA.FOR.CASH.]

s2j sucks vs marth

he admits it all the time

he has no good marths to practice against in socal, cus im inactive

LOL

 

[Tee ay eye]

i don't think dtilt is that great vs falcon cuz he can jump over it
but maybe im missing something

it gets me naired or stomped half the time against GG7

by the way, what do you guys like to do against falcos that stay in one spot (about falco's shffl nair range) and don't commit to anything? i feel like all of my openings against falco come from me being able to bait them in, but i feel kinda useless if they just stay in place and wait for me to get trapped in shield or to throw out something stupidly. do i just have to take space REALLY slowly and figure out whether they're going to stay in the same spot, attack me, or if they're going to run back?

 

[Niko45]

^I agree about dtilt, not really something you can throw out there vs Falcon. Once conditioning has set in I think it becomes pretty useful cause Falcons love to just DD shield camp and be really really gay (once you start exploiting their aerial approaches/gimmicks). I might push an advantage with dtilt but taking stage sounds like neutral and you could be losing a stock there tho I have a feeling I'm not envisioning what PP's talking about correctly.

Playing against Falcon imo boils down to abusing your shield, him abusing his shield, getting grabs at low % and being insanely gay and then trying to find utilts at mid % and then killing him. Dropzone fair/DJ dair to blow up him just DJ sweetspot recovering which every Falcon loves to do since it's their most obviously safe recovery option if not called on it. Not falling for gimmicky stuff like them dairing you on top of platforms or like full hopping and coming down with a non FF dair/knee etc. If you ever get caught out of position anticipate uairs with a counter I find to be pretty good as most falcons get bloodthirsty when they see an up air opportunity, and considering how (besides counter) you can't at all challenge it from above they're likely to just go for it.

Stationary Falcos I think the best thing is to take lasers and dash attack them. Or if they just wait for you to get close and go in and THEN come at you then it's just taking lasers and getting close enough to bait something and make him scared to laser without committing yourself and getting nair'd in the face.

 

[Bones0]

@PP
As a Falco, I feel like Marth's nair is much better at beating out my own nair than fair. Sort of along the same line you were saying, Marth's fair just takes too long to get around to his front, but nair starts quickly in the front, and I like Marth's follow-ups off of nair more than fair anyway. It's also harder for Falco to punish nair because of the second hit and Marth ACing the nair makes it that much tougher.

@Tai
I agree with Niko that you really just have to not panic and close down space. When Falco stands still during lasers it makes spacing much more difficult because he doesn't have any aerial momentum to work with. This is why most Falco players prefer to repeatedly DD and mix in dash forward SHLs and dash backward RSHLs. Especially vs. Marth, Falco needs to be either fully out of his range or fully on top of him. In between is where he always gets caught by dumb stuff like utilt, grab, or fair/nair OoS. Once you get into that awkward distance and Falco doesn't have any momentum to work with, you can just hit him before he is able to land with another laser. Him just SHing backwards with a laser doesn't take him far enough, plus like Niko said, dash attack destroys any attempt Falco may make to retreat (I like dtilt when I don't want to commit that hard because you can try to just poke him as he lands with a laser and see what happens; if he's by the ledge or something it's a great way to force a recovery just because you sandwiched him by the ledge). He won't be close enough to just SH an aerial from standing in place, and he won't have time to dash into a SHFFL because it just takes too long. I think overall it's important to know that if Falco is in front of you, any laser he shoots needs to be out of your grab range or within his shine range (he could jab if he misspaces the shine, but that's so risky because it's easily shield grabbed). When you're closing this distance and he's committed to a SHL, it's also a great opportunity to PS grab. Even if you miss the PS you should still grab assuming you closed enough space while he was doing the SH. Just remember any time you see Falco SH for a SHL, he is committed as ****. And I don't mean just mentally. It's just that there are really no mixups that he can implement midway through a stationary SHL except maybe late nair, but he'd have to hard read you walking into him with shield or something dumb, and you can probably just out-space his nair and still get a grab off anyway.

 

[Dart!]

I still think marth vs falco is all about getting on top of him and grabbing him > death
Marth should be able to swallow up all the room falco has with stage control. Letting falco get comfortable is what loses marth the match in this matchup.

 

[I R MarF]

I have several theories and questions about Marth I would like to discuss.

Are Marth's catering too much towards getting grabs?

Marth is a character with enormous disjointed range and yet it seems DD grab is slightly favored for approach, baits, and punishes.

Would Marth's metagame benefit from a higher emphasis on cutting to the chase (no pun intended) and getting opponents offstage with ftilts, body utilts, nairs, and fair>fsmash... instead of grabs?

Is up-b, as a punish, underused?

When Marth's uair the crap out of Fox, Falco, etc. shouldn't they finish with an up-b, and not a nair?

Why is shffled fair to dair near the edge incredibly underused... despite how good it is on almost the entire cast? (tippered for Fox/Falco and C. Falcon at low percents, untippered for the rest of the cast)

 

[Bones0]

Are Marth's catering too much towards getting grabs?

Some Marths grab too much, some too little. In either case, I don't think a Marth that relies on grabs and treats attacking as a mixup can do very well. Each situation is different, so always looking for a grab is going to make you miss a lot of opportunities.

Marth is a character with enormous disjointed range and yet it seems DD grab is slightly favored for approach, baits, and punishes.

Marth has great range, but all of his moves have a lot of cool down (and some significant startup), so vs. shielding opponents, he's largely limited to late tippered aerials. Grabbing beats shielding, and Marth's large hitboxes force people to shield a lot more than other characters. I think that's a big reason Marth's metagame involves his grab (Fox and Falcon have a similar effect due to their speed, and Falco due to his lasers). The other reason his is grab is ****ing huge. It has range that can compete with some characters' tilts for ****'s sake.

Would Marth's metagame benefit from a higher emphasis on cutting to the chase (no pun intended) and getting opponents offstage with ftilts, body utilts, nairs, and fair>fsmash... instead of grabs?

I think most people understand Marth's strength is getting people off stage fairly quickly. Whether they use attacks or grabs that lead into attacks is pretty irrelevant so long as it works.

Is up-b, as a punish, underused?

Yes, but it's becoming more common. There's a lot of stuff like substituting up-B for dair in Ken combos or drop down up-B for gimps that is frequently better than the alternative, but people are either not confident enough in their ability to do it or they've been doing it the other way for so long that they don't want to change.

When Marth's uair the crap out of Fox, Falco, etc. shouldn't they finish with an up-b, and not a nair?

It depends on how high they are and where they are on the stage. You really should just combo them into fsmash anyway...

Why is shffled fair to dair near the edge incredibly underused... despite how good it is on almost the entire cast? (tippered for Fox/Falco and C. Falcon at low percents, untippered for the rest of the cast)

Are you saying do a fair and dair in a single SH? I'd rather just take them off stage with another fair and then up-B/dair/jump back to the stage and edge guard. It also probably wouldn't sweetspot vs. most of the cast, so it just becomes an inferior version of fair.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

dash forward retreating fair is OP

 

[I R MarF]

Are you saying do a fair and dair in a single SH? I'd rather just take them off stage with another fair and then up-B/dair/jump back to the stage and edge guard. It also probably wouldn't sweetspot vs. most of the cast, so it just becomes an inferior version of fair.

Nah, I'm saying a SHFFL'd fair to knock an opponent offstage Dash>SH dair and kill them.

Thanks for the feedback btw

 

[ChinesePanda777]

I agree with Bones on the Nair > Fair vs Falcos. That's just my recent personal experience though.

Whenever I throw out d-tilt vs a Falcon, I get punished super hard. I prefer to dash dance in a lot closer than I normally think to bait something out then tech chase to eternity with down-throw - works for me for now.

I really don't know what to do against Falco pressure. I still crumble way too easily and throw out terribad shield grabs and forget about other options. This has been a problem for a really long time but Mattdottzeb shut me down hard with lasers during some friendlies at NWM.

And PP, sounds like you should come to the NW more often to play ^_^

 

[knightpraetor]

is the consensus that dtilt sucks on falcon? i don't know cause I don't use it, but I can't think of where i would want to use dtilt. The only place I could think of is when the opponent is retreating in his dashdance and i want to steal some space, but it seems like it would be strictly inferior to nair if the falcon is out of space at the edge...and if the falcon has space...isn't approaching with something other than grab not worth the risk? I feel like the matchup boils down to techchasing in midstage and boxing them out at the ledge with nairs/grab dtilt and then try to edgeguard them...but then i lost to yay this weekend in the matchup so i'm open to new ideas

i guess if they're out of space approaching dtilt into fairs would be relatively hard to punish, but unless the dtilt is going to send them offstage it still doesn't seem like it would net positive in risk vs reward

oh so pp likes dtilt against falcon...hmm..wish i had vids..you know

kind of like an eternal maxim for me when talking about pp


btw dealing with this
"
Oh yeah, and Axe liked to WD into me whenever I would SH and shield/CC sometimes to **** my spacing(any character). I found that funny, but I could bait it by not always going into him when I jumped and getting free pressure. Definitely something good to keep in mind if you have to play the ditto or wonder why someone is running into you if you do wonder that. I'm willing to bat around more ways to handle this of course.
"

is my current research project vs fox. I feel like if you can learn to get enough off the free pressure it can even out the risk of going in for an aerial when they are boxed out at the ledge...

 

[Bones0]

I really don't know what to do against Falco pressure. I still crumble way too easily and throw out terribad shield grabs and forget about other options. This has been a problem for a really long time but Mattdottzeb shut me down hard with lasers during some friendlies at NWM.

If he aerials high and doesn't fade away, grab. If he aerials low or crosses you up, WD OoS away from him after the shine. Anticipate RSHLs out of the shine. If they were in front of you, you can sometimes get a dtilt in under their laser. Falco's almost always SHFFL a nair after this laser, so WD back will net you a lot of grabs unless they are really smart and dash abnormally far before jumping.

If they double shine, you have to wait a bit longer before WDing, and if they shine-grab, you have to buffer spot a spot dodge. If they aren't shine-grabbing at full speed or if their shine is staled, you might be able to get away with buffered roll or a shield grab to beat out their own grab.

 

[ChinesePanda777]

If he aerials high and doesn't fade away, grab. If he aerials low or crosses you up, WD OoS away from him after the shine. Anticipate RSHLs out of the shine. If they were in front of you, you can sometimes get a dtilt in under their laser. Falco's almost always SHFFL a nair after this laser, so WD back will net you a lot of grabs unless they are really smart and dash abnormally far before jumping.

If they double shine, you have to wait a bit longer before WDing, and if they shine-grab, you have to buffer spot a spot dodge. If they aren't shine-grabbing at full speed or if their shine is staled, you might be able to get away with buffered roll or a shield grab to beat out their own grab.

Nice tips. I'll try to keep those in mind. Thanks!

 

[Tee ay eye]

i suck against sheiks who jump a lot and peaches who float a lot

 

[Beat!]

Is up-b, as a punish, underused?

Yes

When Marth's uair the crap out of Fox, Falco, etc. shouldn't they finish with an up-b, and not a nair?

Sometimes, yes. Keep in mind that up-B has to be sweetspotted. You won't be able to get it every time, where as nair is... nair.

 

[Niko45]

Hmm reverse up B to finsih up air strings on FFers? Doesn't seem practical to me considering those combos should almost always end in tipper fsmashes.

 

[.Chipmunk.]

i suck against sheiks who jump a lot and peaches who float a lot

WD utilt, and float ends. just wait, haha

 

[knightpraetor]

well, on FD there is no guaranteed string of upair into fsmash finish at high percents..so we use nair like in m2k's match vs leffen in crews...but the problem with finishing with up b is often they are too high above us or they have a chance to jump out in which case we don't want to be up+B ing

though i really should start using it to end fair strings when they DI out of dair instead of just taking a nair or fair

also, that waas my conclusion too chip...play defensive till the float ends...contesting peaches float seems pretty high risk for low reward most of the time

 

[Beat!]

Hmm reverse up B to finsih up air strings on FFers? Doesn't seem practical to me considering those combos should almost always end in tipper fsmashes.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BkwQRhJVHIk#t=54m10s

Kinda hard to squeeze in an fsmash in those kind of situations.

 

[.Chipmunk.]

well, on FD there is no guaranteed string of upair into fsmash finish at high percents..so we use nair like in m2k's match vs leffen in crews...but the problem with finishing with up b is often they are too high above us or they have a chance to jump out in which case we don't want to be up+B ing

though i really should start using it to end fair strings when they DI out of dair instead of just taking a nair or fair

also, that waas my conclusion too chip...play defensive till the float ends...contesting peaches float seems pretty high risk for low reward most of the time

Well it depends on where they are floating as well. Often they are floating too high for you to hit, or off stage trying to bait you to come out there so they can recover safely and in those situations it is best to simply wait it out. If they are floating infront of you just outside of fair range to try to punish a missed attack with a fair then you can do a variety of things.

 

[.Chipmunk.]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BkwQRhJVHIk#t=54m10s

Kinda hard to squeeze in an fsmash in those kind of situations.

If M2K would have nair'd sooner, he could have fsmashed actually. He built up the percentage too high to be able to get one before doing his nair. He also could have used shield breaker instead of nair.

 

[Beat!]

Eh, maybe. I don't think going for the uair chain in that situation was a bad decision.

 

[.Chipmunk.]

Eh, maybe. I don't think going for the uair chain in that situation was a bad decision.

Nor do I. I'm just saying that there isn't only 1 'good' decision in certain situations. He could have done either and the net result would have been the same. Get them off stage or death. I was just saying that he could have fsmash finished if he wanted to by choosing a move with more horizontal knockback than vertical.

 

[leffen]

M2K should have used more weak upairs to keep me lower and then finish me of with a tipper. You should use the fact that you have leeway for your upair to keep them low.
I know Armada says this a lot, and its very very true. Even M2K doesnt really optimize his marth combos on FD

However, it should be noted that USA had such an incredible lead in the crew battle that all M2K had to do was go even with me and it was done. Using nair and tipper uairs was better considering the circumstances.

 

[Tee ay eye]

on top of that, m2k wanted to be a showboat cuz he doesn't like leffen very much

 

[MikeHaggarTHAKJB]

nah man he deffinetly made that choice for strategic reasons, all he could hope to do was to go even with leffen in such a safe way as possible.

 

[knightpraetor]

correct me if i'm wrong, but i thought weak upairs rarely if ever combo in those situations cause of the reduced stun from being a weak hit...

not to say that weak upair does not combo, because it can combo into uptilt and fsmash for sure, but i thought weak upairs do not truly combo into more upairs if they hit the enemy higher and if they are done lower only combo into ground moves

 

[.Chipmunk.]

correct me if i'm wrong, but i thought weak upairs rarely if ever combo in those situations cause of the reduced stun from being a weak hit...

not to say that weak upair does not combo, because it can combo into uptilt and fsmash for sure, but i thought weak upairs do not truly combo into more upairs if they hit the enemy higher and if they are done lower only combo into ground moves

No they combo into uairs again, but it becomes harder to tip with the second upair so you can end up with a second weak uair where your opponent lands before you do and gets to tech for free.

 

[Bones0]

No, KP is right. You can't sourspot a uair (staled, nonetheless) and combo with another uair. Even at high %s you won't even be able to get another uair off in time, especially if they DI to make you dash first.

 

[Niko45]

Ya as stated he could have easily gotten a tipper out of that combo if he ended it earlier. I mean considering the knockback of reverse up B and the insane lag if you can't edgecancel it I can't really see it being optimal for combo finishing in the middle of the stage at all. Even if nair or non tip fair are weaker they leave you more time for optimal positioning on edgeguards.

Non tip fair is just way better than people seem to realize because not giving height is way better imo than a move that's more powerful overall but gives them a ton of height and lags badly(if that power move won't outright KO).