if you wait for the phantasm shorten intending to dtilt and they don't cancel, they are going to go over your head....which is still getting out 50% of the time...which is unacceptable for marth.
Oh, nvm, I thought you were talking about going to the ledge.
the problem isn't that they jump back when they are too close..the problem is that they DI the dthrow off stage and then still jump back when jumping straight up would still be out of range of all of marth's moves. I think i see this happen in tourney at least 10 times a tourney, it's ridiculous.
Even if Falco DIs dthrow away and DJs back, Marth can still WD off bair and hit him at most reasonable %s. DJing straight up gives Falco a 3 or so frame advantage if he wants to side-B through Marth (assuming the Marth is trying to react in the first place), but completely exposes him to Marth throwing out any move, and he completely loses any potential Firebird mixup because he's too close. I can definitely agree that a lot of Falco players get carried away with DIing away even after it's obvious Marth isn't chasing them off stage though. It's definitely not some unnecessary precaution that has any notable impact on Falco's overall ability to recover though.
I do this some as it is, but you have to short hop at the correct height to get this to hit. if the falco is low it's fine, but when the falco is high you don't know if they will just phantasm or DJ and then phantasm. so if you sh while they still have the jump they are going to just catch your landing lag.
this isn't really a marth only problem though, mahone lost an edgeguard vs redd at a recent tourney with jiggs cause he sh to cover the phnatasm with nair and the fox DJ fastfalls and then phantasms during the 4 frames of landing lag.
Ummm, idk where you are thinking about SHing an aerial. I was just talking about how on a stage like YS, if you see my Phantasm lined up for the ledge cancel, you can stand in one spot and cover the ledge cancel and the shorten. If I shorten you could dtilt/ftilt/fsmash, and if I ledge cancel you could turn-around utilt or just fsmash. I've never played a spacie that does this so I can't say if it's possible to react to each option, but I know Marth is capable of reaching both options from a single spot. That's all I was really getting at because most other characters don't have that potential. Maybe Fox could choose between run to the ledge shine and FH bair or something, but it's still a much tighter window than Marth just sweeping his sword around in the air.
As far as Jiggs goes, maybe she could ftilt instead of going for a SH nair? I'm not familiar enough with her to know what most Jiggs players do to handle side-B. I mostly think of how Hbox covers it simply by crouching on stage. If they side-B they get rested/fsmashed off the other side, but obviously Jiggs is too slow to cover the shorten and the full length, which is why I was originally just talking about Marth in the first place.
i'm confused as to what you're saying, are you saying you can cover shortened phantasm just by dtilting once?
i guess i don't understand how one dtilt can cover phantasm and shortened phantasm unless you are right up against the ledge and teetering..are you saying that i only need to be like a little bit closer than tipper distance and then i can dtilt and hit both? cause i shorten constantly and i don't get hit by dtilt at tip range ever...do they need to be closer or are they just mistiming it?
If you're trying to edgeguard shorten, you can't be trying to tip them because the whole deal with shortens is that they can grab the ledge from further away. If they don't shorten, obviously you can barely be near the ledge and still hit them with the tip of the dtilt because Fox/Falco's body is pushed into the stage. When they shorten, you have to dtilt further off the stage. If you dtilt far off the stage and they DON'T shorten, you will still hit them the same. If you are dtilting properly, you shouldn't even be able to tell whether or not they shortened. The reason most Marth's miss edge guards vs. me is because they try to treat my shortens as if I will be near the ledge before grabbing it. They try to time the dtilt as late as possible before I actually grab the ledge, but it never works because I'm never that close. If you go into Training Mode and look at shortening it should give you a better idea of why you have to be dtilting far off-stage. I keep recommending people use dtilt because it is a quick move that hits low, and it's one of Marth's furthest moves. I can't test, but I think dsmash could also be capable of hitting perfect Phantasms, but it's trajectory isn't as helpful as dtilt's anyway.
but the big issue is that if people can shorten on command marth has to be closer to the ledge, so if he mistimes it he will get punished...so marths will have to learn never to miss phantasm, and even then he can't always be close enough, sometimes after hitting the opponent i barely have time to get near enough to the ledge...even now there are occasional times when i try to dtilt the ledge but didn't get close enough in time
What situations come up that prevent you from getting to the ledge fast enough? If you've just hit him off, you can almost always just WD once or twice and be close enough to dtilt. If you are close enough for them to even go off stage from a throw, I can guarantee you're close enough to get in position in time. It's also important to keep in mind most spacies don't go for perfect shortens because they aren't comfortable enough with the distance they can grab the ledge from. If it still doesn't seem to be working, you may just be using that late dtilt timing that only works for full lengths (it also unnecessarily gives spacies a tech option, so you should never be dtilting side-Bs that late, shortened or not).
