Important Carefully Ask PPMD about the Tiara Guy

[Tee ay eye]

marthematics

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

Replace every empty Fsmash attempt with Ftilt and it magically works.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Can't believe I missed the math jokes.

sadface

They don't call him math marth for nothin

 

[Bones0]

Maybe I'm missing something, but I would just LH counter if they are spamming blizzard... >_>

 

[.Chipmunk.]

Maybe I'm missing something, but I would just LH counter if they are spamming blizzard... >_>

Can't you just...umm...roll?

 

[Bones0]

No, they'll just dsmash with whichever one isn't blizzarding.

 

[knightpraetor]

pp just meant that i like to cover aerials at me by ftilting them rather than dtilting/fsmashing them at some angles..obviously if they are coming up from really low it's better to just dtilt, but ftilt can be useful on DI in/DI up on dthrows at the edge ..maybe fthrow too..but typically fthrow for me either results in a free dtilt or room to actually risk going off stage..i would guess faking going off and then ftilting their jump on after fthrow would still work, but mainly i use ftilt to help cover after dthrow against falcon...i don't want to risk fsmashing to cover or countering since if you're wrong on those two you get punished pretty badly.

also i understood that you meant to ledge jump with the real jump to go high..i was just talking to myself, you know bait the blizzard then go high..i'll try that next time.

also bones, counter isn't a bad option used sparingly, but i don't think marth can react to the start up, so it's like an all or nothing move, which is why it's better to do what pp suggested and go over after baiting it..i don't want to be losing lives because i was sure they would blizzard and then they didn't..

if counter were actually that good of an option i would just jump on with it against everyone. but in reality it's only worth doing if the opponent is predominantly choosing to use attacks based on your ledge hop.

it's also substantially worse depending on how good the characters grab game is..which is why marths are more likely to counter on against falco or peach..

though i also counter on against lower tier characters since I feel like most of them only get grab -> into one aerial if I DI correctly..

anyway those are my opinions on counter...never really heard marths talk much about counter on from the ledge but based on how sparingly i see other marths using it i think they have roughly similar thoughts

now to my questions:
QUESTION 1:
this is really important to know so someone help me out..though i will try to test it soon as well
with marth when does dair grab combo if ever? this is one of those frame questions so maybe ishould be asking on the boards, but i use this quite a bit but there are times i regret it. can jab always beat out the grab? that's another thing i wonder

QUESTION 2:
not so important, but i often see marths using dair to techchase the top platform, I am trying to think of spots where the dair is superior.

1. if they can CC...however, they are rarely on the top platform in a position where they can CC, while marth has better options for the side platforms
2. if the top platform is so far up that marth cannot fastfall and get another upair, this only applies to dreamland at low percents.
3. if they miss tech i personally think you should mixup between rising tipped upair for in place if they dno't move and reactively dair if they roll

is this the gist of it? or are there are other places where it could be good? in general i just don't see dairing the platforms ever being optimal on yoshi's FoD or even battlefield, but I would like someone who prefers dair techchases to weigh in or something. I barely use them myself

 

[TheCrimsonBlur]

We talk about dair->grab starting here.

The summary:

1) To combo dair->grab do it either when dropping on your opponent (whether from a platform or otherwise) or at 4/5ths the apex of your short hop
2) It usually combos straight up but at low %s they may have a small window to buffer a spotdodge.
3) Dair -> grab is guaranteed on Falcon and Ganon, as long as they remain standing. If they spotdodge, you can grab again.
4) Against the 27 frame spotdodge characters (Puff, Marth, ICs, Peach) you have a +1 frame advantage after your missed grab. You can't do much with that, but you can at least try to keep your tempo with a mindgame, pivot grab, or whatever. Don't try to grab again or you'll get *****.
5) Against the 22 frame spotdodge characters (Falco, Fox, the Marios, Samus, Sheik, Pika) you are at a frame disadvantage if you miss your grab after the dair. Only a -4 though, so they have to be quick with whatever they do. If a Fox takes the dair, recognizes he has a 3 frame advantage, remembers to buffer a spotdodge, recognizes that he has a 4 frame advantage after your missed grab, and then runs up and JC shines you during your lag, well then they deserve the shine. Promptly pause the game, shake his hand, and congratulate him on advancing the metagame.

 

[Niko45]

Rollling up from the ledge is pretty good.

 

[Dr Peepee]

@KP: If the opponent spaces far away in Marth dittos by the edge I ledgehop counter sometimes. Other than that I don't really think I need it.

@TCB: Whoa writing that down. I should Dair onstage more.

 

[Bones0]

I was only talking about LH countering vs. desynced ICs spamming blizzard. I'm guessing you can get the counter out before you even run out of invincibility, and blizzard lasts long enough that you could LH into it for a guaranteed counter-attack.

 

[Niko45]

Also btw everyone 100% confident double jab does not work on proper shortens after playing last night.

 

[Dr Peepee]

I didn't think that worked from how I felt about it, but cool to know, thanks Niko.

Just feels too slow to me.

 

[Niko45]

Jury still out on if neutral B is helpful, I forgot to test that. Just really focused on double jab and it fails for sure but I got caught up in playing and didn't really experiment enough lol.

 

[.Chipmunk.]

Jury still out on if neutral B is helpful, I forgot to test that. Just really focused on double jab and it fails for sure but I got caught up in playing and didn't really experiment enough lol.

I was pretty sure double jab failed, but the question I do not know is -why- does it fail? Is it too quick? Too slow?

 

[knightpraetor]

niko, double jab from tip spacing at the ledge or teetering at the edge?

and how high is the shorten done by the falco?

i feel like double jab should definitely work at some heights but maybe not if they were going straight into you..of course non-teetering before doing them means they probably won't ever work fi they perfect shorten..

also bones, IC grabs -> wobbling, don't wanna take the risk with counters...even without countering throwing you at the ledge is a very bad place to be at most percents

and yeah i agree with pp counter isn't too bad in marth dittos..part of the reason is because they can space far enough out that fair on isn't very safe against their fsmash, but counter gets out as the invuln ends, yet they are scared to just wait and expect the counter since you will be in fair range afterwards.

so marth's actually tend to grab punish the counter very little compared to peaches because they don't have the balls to just stand in range of marth's sword like peach does....

with good reason of course as marth doesn't want to get fair grab dthrown in the ditto and have the position reversed.

anyway what about dair techchases on platforms? does anyone prefer them to upair chases at particular percents and stuff?

 

[Niko45]

Basically they are doing a side B right in front of your face, just outside of your range. It's done I'd say at about Marth chest height (honestly could be higher I'm not sure). So basically you jab for a normal side B and it whiffs and they fall to ledge during the lag between jabs. Teeter cancelling (while btw not always feasible to setup in time on every edgeguard) doesn't help, just changes the range that they start the side B from if anything.

You could try to call this with an ftilt or fsmash but air dodge is still a threat at this distance and if you whiff those things you will be shined.

 

[.Chipmunk.]

Basically they are doing a side B right in front of your face, just outside of your range. It's done I'd say at about Marth chest height (honestly could be higher I'm not sure). So basically you jab for a normal side B and it whiffs and they fall to ledge during the lag between jabs. Teeter cancelling (while btw not always feasible to setup in time on every edgeguard) doesn't help, just changes the range that they start the side B from if anything.

You could try to call this with an ftilt or fsmash but air dodge is still a threat at this distance and if you whiff those things you will be shined.

So then, what about side b 1 and 2? It hits around roughly the same time as jab but can be interrupted much sooner with the second side b.

 

[knightpraetor]

good to know niko...also if they are at that height, since strong bad said earlier that marth's chest height is like 3 frames of fall if you fastfall to the ground, i can guess that is about 2-3 frames to fall as well, so shieldbreaker may be able to hit..it should actually hit more if they fastfall it....the worry is whether they can not fastfall and slowfall slow enough to avoid the extra frames of hit.

 

[Niko45]

I think besides any raw statistical extra frames where neutral B is out compared to jab, the key to neutral B is that its a big hitbox that starts high and finishes low...similar to a spacie falling from this type of shortening. I think that is what can make it really work, but I need to take a closer look at it still.

@Chipmunk I've never tried that but maybe that would work. My first impression is that they could DI behind side B so they would just get back on stage from getting hit by it but again I'd have to try it out.

 

[ArcNatural]

I think OverB -> second overB might be promising or overb -> jab or dtilt.

Other options that I think would are:

Fair edgecanceled into dbj dair/fair (needs time to set up, looks amazing though)

Fair -> delayed jab/dtilt (learn the timing required to properly cover both normal phantasm and shortened, can't jab/dtilt right away)

shff autocancel nair maybe? Not sure how long the hitboxes are out but being able to react immediately from a 2 frame landing lag might count for something. I'm thinking like you shff nair immediately on reaction to their doublejump, then you jab/dtilt/grab/etc. accordingly to what happens afterwards. I think this might have promise unless the sweetspot sideB is just too fast to grab the edge if the shff nair -> dtilt doesn't cover that option fast enough.

If I think of anything else I'll add it, but a lot of other ideas involve hard reads where you just trust your instincts that they will shorten. Obviously though, jumping out stops them from shortening heh.

I have mixed results with jumping out, mainly due to vs Falco for some reason I suck at hitting that meteor cancel at times when his phantasm hits me (cause I tend to hold up not remain at neutral when it hits). But for example, KDJ jumps out a lot as Marth, and almost always at the least clangs with the phantasm/illusion so he doesn't get hit.

 

[Cactuar]

I guess I should contribute to this thread more... M2K and I tested double jab vs shorten illusion a few years ago. Doesn't work.

 

[Niko45]

Ya seriously. Save me some time and effort lol. Plus you're supposed to be the authority figure here, I'm just supposed to whine about Marth being bad.

 

[TheCrimsonBlur]

I said double jab didn't work and no one believed me

 

[Niko45]

I did TCB, I did.

 

[Dr Peepee]

I think OverB -> second overB might be promising or overb -> jab or dtilt.

Other options that I think would are:

Fair edgecanceled into dbj dair/fair (needs time to set up, looks amazing though)

Fair -> delayed jab/dtilt (learn the timing required to properly cover both normal phantasm and shortened, can't jab/dtilt right away)

shff autocancel nair maybe? Not sure how long the hitboxes are out but being able to react immediately from a 2 frame landing lag might count for something. I'm thinking like you shff nair immediately on reaction to their doublejump, then you jab/dtilt/grab/etc. accordingly to what happens afterwards. I think this might have promise unless the sweetspot sideB is just too fast to grab the edge if the shff nair -> dtilt doesn't cover that option fast enough.

If I think of anything else I'll add it, but a lot of other ideas involve hard reads where you just trust your instincts that they will shorten. Obviously though, jumping out stops them from shortening heh.

I have mixed results with jumping out, mainly due to vs Falco for some reason I suck at hitting that meteor cancel at times when his phantasm hits me (cause I tend to hold up not remain at neutral when it hits). But for example, KDJ jumps out a lot as Marth, and almost always at the least clangs with the phantasm/illusion so he doesn't get hit.

I feel so afraid to go out there vs Falco, but it is true that most of them won't DJ Dair, especially if you cover that option once maybe twice.

AC Nair even on reaction to DJ feels waaay too slow in my head.

Of those other options, Fair to Jab/Dtilt(delayed or not I'm not sure) feels the best if those moves can actually catch low shortens, which I am kind of uncertain about. I feel like the other choices are either too slow or don't hit low enough.

Guh I need to test all of this lol.

 

[knightpraetor]

testing is a pain, and i'm not convinced running off is a good choice against falco, though i guess it's an option you should be willing to use if you feel your opponent is around your skill level...

otherwise it's increasing variance unnecessarily.

anyone wanna hazard a guess as to what the statistical percentage running off will result in killing falco vs the percentage of the time he will kill you?

i guess i will play with it sometime, it should favor marth, but that kind of variance is not fun.

can you cover all falcos options besides dair on after you run off? just wondering whether run off fair is guaranteed to hit..i thought that if they were planning an immediate wall jump or an immediate airdodge on you also didn't cover them.

i always felt that the percentage coverage you get from just staying on stage seems just as good without any risk. sweetspotting the jump is difficult enough isn't it? it doesn't need to hit a lot for me to be satisfied since I maintain stage control that way.

don't most of marth's moves hit below the stage anyway?

hey pp, what percent of the time do marths hit you with dtilt when you try to jump to the ledge? zero %?

just wondering how possible it is to always perfect sweetspot, because that affects the decision significantly.

 

[Bones0]

Running off vs. spacies is always a bad choice unless they have to up-B or if they are still too far to side-B and you want to DJ back on stage with an aerial.

 

[ShroudedOne]

Run off counter is a ballsy, unsafe thing to do, but couldn't it work if you call the DJ dair?

 

[Bones0]

No, depending on the spacing/timing of Falco's dair, his DJ will usually take him right through the counter, and Marth sinks like a rock. Even if it does hit him, it will hit him back on stage.

 

[Dr Peepee]

testing is a pain, and i'm not convinced running off is a good choice against falco, though i guess it's an option you should be willing to use if you feel your opponent is around your skill level...

otherwise it's increasing variance unnecessarily.

anyone wanna hazard a guess as to what the statistical percentage running off will result in killing falco vs the percentage of the time he will kill you?

i guess i will play with it sometime, it should favor marth, but that kind of variance is not fun.

can you cover all falcos options besides dair on after you run off? just wondering whether run off fair is guaranteed to hit..i thought that if they were planning an immediate wall jump or an immediate airdodge on you also didn't cover them.

i always felt that the percentage coverage you get from just staying on stage seems just as good without any risk. sweetspotting the jump is difficult enough isn't it? it doesn't need to hit a lot for me to be satisfied since I maintain stage control that way.

don't most of marth's moves hit below the stage anyway?

hey pp, what percent of the time do marths hit you with dtilt when you try to jump to the ledge? zero %?

just wondering how possible it is to always perfect sweetspot, because that affects the decision significantly.

If they jump right away, then run off Fair should usually get them, depending on % and DI to some extent obviously. Shine stall is the only thing that complicates this a little bit but most Falcos just side b shorten or airdodge out of DJ out of the stall. Side b would get hit by your up B if you swung really early I bet, and you could punish the airdodge and probably get a reset in some/most situations for the edgeguard.

Most of Marth's moves do hit below the stage, but not necessarily far enough to make a huge impact when edgeguarding shortened recoveries(while keeping yourself somewhat safe, anyway).

Eh, if it's Yoshi's I can get Dtilted quite a bit when recovering LOL. Recovering suuucks there a lot with Falco against Marth lol.
Other stages, I feel like I can get Dtilted sometimes for trying to DJ sweetspot, but if Marth isn't quite close enough to the edge I can space a little away from the edge with my DJ and regrab it. Dtilt should cover DJ sweetspots no matter what but Marth has to be positioned well and sometimes he can't always get that set up. I think it's hard to get set up for Dtilt really well after throwing Falco offstage anyway.

I'll see if I can test some Dthrow stuff with Twitch.

 

[Construct]

Do you and twitch stream? 'cause you totally should.

 

[Dr Peepee]

No we don't because I don't really know how LOL. I suppose I could find out though. =)

 

[knightpraetor]

Eh, if it's Yoshi's I can get Dtilted quite a bit when recovering LOL. Recovering suuucks there a lot with Falco against Marth lol.
Other stages, I feel like I can get Dtilted sometimes for trying to DJ sweetspot, but if Marth isn't quite close enough to the edge I can space a little away from the edge with my DJ and regrab it. Dtilt should cover DJ sweetspots no matter what but Marth has to be positioned well and sometimes he can't always get that set up. I think it's hard to get set up for Dtilt really well after throwing Falco offstage anyway.

I'll see if I can test some Dthrow stuff with Twitch.

the thing is, those positions where marth is too far away to have good dtilt angles after the dthrow are also going to be too hard to run off fair in time, so even if it's not perfect, i still think it's probably at least as good on average as running off and with much less variance...

 

[Dr Peepee]

Considering I almost never hit Westballz with Dtilt but I did hit him about 50%(very rough estimate but it was somewhat often) of the time when I ran off in our friendlies, I disagree.

Anecdotal with a very small sample, but it's all I got right now.

Hopefully I get to test this stuff and play more Falcos with Marth soon to find out.

 

[knightpraetor]

you just said that dtilt hits reasonably often..make up your mind pp

how much is almost never? but i'll try it...i just find that getting countergimped in tourney is a pretty lame way to go out

 

[Dr Peepee]

On double jumping to the edge Dtilt hits reasonably often on my Falco lol. On Dtilting Westballz who likes to shorten and shine stall and airdodge past my moves it doesn't work too much lol.

Just try that reverse SH Dair/waveland to edge thing I was talking about. I wanna test that more than anything for edgeguarding atm lol.

I get some sick Dairs on edgeguarding Twitch's Puff btw, but I'm not sure if this is matchup-related or me just reading him(feels like both). XD This is partly to say that if I can hit Puff with Dairs, then I/we should be able to hit Falco with Dairs if we space correctly(quick horizontal weaving vs quick vertical jumping that you have time to react to...), and partly because Dairs ****.

 

[knightpraetor]

hmm, dair is ok if they don't choose to go high..hopefully you are ****** him for giong high..i find once they run low on jumps it's really easy to dair jiggs.

basically you can't hit the dair if they are maintaining space above and horizontal to you but then you have guaranteed bair, if they start trying to go lower then they risk getting spiked. it's not good to go off stage and jump back towards stage with dair unless you can do it reactively..

can you react to them aerialing you?i kept finding that mahone would just drain two jumps to avoid the dair because i don't haev as many jumps as him, though that's not bad if you get back no stage and dtilt him again...that's most of his jumps so then the edgeguarding gets easier.

so how exactly are you getting these dairs? jump out towards him staying horizontal to him? or does he come up from below the ledge? if they try to come from below the ledge then dair/spike and fake jumping for dair and DJ back to stage and picking your free ground move to hit with are pretty good mixups...

vs falco
yeah if you jump at the right time you can beat out dair if they try to come back on stage, but i'm still not sure the wavelanding stuff will work. i will try testing it sometime this week but i'm so busy till wednesday

 

[Dr Peepee]

Puff never goes straight for the edge if you Dtilt/Ftilt him once in a while, so you start taking jumps first. Puff has 5 jumps, so you start assuming she goes high/baits with a few jumps before actually committing to anything because she doesn't really have to right away. Bair/Fair swat Puff if she ever tries to go above you, so that leaves her trying to crash your head/body with aerials or pound, and going for the edge....and airdodge I guess.

Crashing your head is tricky but handled with Uptilt.

Attacking your body means she usually weaves away before going back in, so you just walk/WD/SH once she starts to float away and react to whether she comes in or not.

Sometimes I FH to cover Puff attacking into me but I do it kind of far away. This is because I want to let Puff fall more so I can fall with a Fair if she tries to jump attack into me or Dair if she goes straight for the edge.

Also, I SH to counter aerials into me as well, and can Dair if I see Puff even kind of close to the edge(if I'm on the edge onstage....just can't be afraid of her lol).

I used to Dair trade with her aerials, but I don't like that too much now. I might do it again later and see if I like it again.

That is how I get the Dair.



Edit @Falco: Bair/maybe Uair if he goes high I guess

 

[knightpraetor]

@ falco i can't really remember what you said earlier but you were basically saying dair if they jump early and if they don't waveland to the ledge right? i will definitely try it, it sounds pretty solid, though of the things you listed that westballz did the only thing that causes a lot of trouble at the ledge if you are catching hops to the ledge most of the time with dtilt is the shortened phantasm..i guess if everyone shortened phantasm i would have to learn a lot of new tricks...or see if shieldbreaker can actually cover it.

@ jiggs

so from what i gather you're talking about edgeguarding from on stage with dair...it sounds pretty good

but what do you think of actually going off stage against jiggs? run off and fair if they are close and then just rising jump if they are not forces them to waste one jump when coming up from the ledge if they want to avoid the spike and then y ou get a dtilt so it takes two jumps..i guess technically there is a risk of being pounded even when going for low run offs like that

and if you jump out at them and threated bair in advance they can't go above you without eating bair , going below you wastes their height and if they come at you you jump back on stage with dair..if thye don't come at you i guess you can fall bair or go back to stage as needed..but i was thinking it might be good for wasting a jiggs jumps in advance...

however, the way you describe marth's ground game it makes it sound like puff doesn't have very good options except wasting jumps to go high..or wasting jumps trying to get onto the ledge after you've landed from a jump in between dtilts.