Important Carefully Ask PPMD about the Tiara Guy

[Niko45]

I think honestly uthrow fsmash works on Falco up to around 100% if they don't DI to either side.

 

[Bones0]

up throw fsmash is actually only guaranteed from like 30-70% if its below 30 they will hit the ground/be able to shine before fsmash comes out and above 70ish they can just jump out

Uthrow fsmash true combos on Falco up to 85% (before grab). It combos on Fox up to 83% (based on no DI). I'm also sure it combos under 30%, but I can't test because CPUs never DI away. :/

I ment for characters like Falcon and Marth. Against spacies yeah I just u-throw

Oh, well idk then. In Marth dittos, I usually fthrow/dthrow them towards the ledge when I'm close enough to it, otherwise I just accept that they aren't going off stage and work from uthrow to just combo them off.

 

[Bing]

Okay Im just trying to think of options that are "outside the box".

 

[Cactuar]

When you can't uthrow fsmash, uthrow sh ff weakhit uair fsmash.

Edit: fsmashfsmashfsmashfsmash into fsmash best combo gg

 

[Bing]

weak hit uair is so boss, I like doing that then regrabbing.

Best combo is uairuairuairuairuairuair

 

[.Chipmunk.]

this is 2012. it's uthrow -> reverse fair -> anything -> fsmash.

 

[Tee ay eye]

When you can't uthrow fsmash, uthrow sh ff weakhit uair fsmash.

Edit: fsmashfsmashfsmashfsmash into fsmash best combo gg

for a second, i thought we were talking about fox dittos

 

[Niko45]

tipper tipper tipper is honestly the most fun combo

it sucks cause if I land two of them I'm obligated to try for the third and I usually get ***** for that

Serious question: Is neutral B the best way to edgeguard spacies side B? I'm beginning to think it is more and more. It seems very hard for them to sweetspot underneath it which is cool, but more importantly, I have huge huge problems edgeguarding spacies that are really proficient at side B shortening, but the neutral B hitbox lingers and it feels like just timing to hit a normal side B will also catch a shortened one as well, covering both options. Should this become staple?

 

[Cactuar]

Upb options exploit the heavy commit required to use neutral b to edgeguard forward b.

If Fox just jumps back, they get to choose whether they do up b or forward b. If you start your neutral b at any point, they can just upb immediately instead of forwardb and go up and over. If you let go immediately after committing so that you can move to punish that overhead, they can switch and aim to the ledge. If you hold it the whole time, they get on stage for free.


Don't forget that Fox has other options from that position.

 

[MT_]

I find recently that jumping to match a spacey's height while charging neutral-b then falling with them works wonders if you are fairly sure they will side-b. It's wonderful IMO because it will cover attempts to side-b over you, and sometimes spaces will try to drop to just at stage-level to side-b (so they will side-b onto the stage) to punish landing lag if you were matching their height. But neutral-b isn't cancelled upon landing so you can cover that option easily as well. As for the spacey switching to up-b as a reaction to you charging neutral-b, you lose power over your edgeguard but I still think that you are in an advantageous decision especially if you reacted and let go of your side-b early. Then you can react/predict their up-b angle though you sacrifice the chance to just go out there and swat then out of their up-b.

I used side-b a gross amount in a recent tournament and it worked extremely well (may be because my opponent loves to side-b onto the stage at all heights lol) so I was actually just thinking about this.

 

[Fregadero]

Cactuar come back to Marth

I much prefer to sit and try to react to whatever option they pick. Can well timed dtilts different both lengths of side b? B/c w/ iasa frames you can get out and do w/e to up b if it does.

Although I'm not entirely sure that dtilt beats sweetspot. Theres too much I don't know. I need to go to a no johns and learn from some good Marths, LI is pretty fake.

 

[MT_]

If the spacey doesn't have the option to side-b high I like to jab because it's easy to time and (especially against falco) will usually result in death. If you are scared of shortening, I think jabbing twice should suffice, one to cover the regular side-b and one for the shortened one (I haven't actually implemented this yet but I am pretty sure it would work). You will have to be close to the ledge for that to work of course.

This way you don't have to commit to charging side-b and can also easily react to an up-b.

 

[Bones0]

tipper tipper tipper is honestly the most fun combo

it sucks cause if I land two of them I'm obligated to try for the third and I usually get ***** for that

Serious question: Is neutral B the best way to edgeguard spacies side B? I'm beginning to think it is more and more. It seems very hard for them to sweetspot underneath it which is cool, but more importantly, I have huge huge problems edgeguarding spacies that are really proficient at side B shortening, but the neutral B hitbox lingers and it feels like just timing to hit a normal side B will also catch a shortened one as well, covering both options. Should this become staple?

Jab can be side-B'd under surprisingly easily, so don't do that. Dtilt is definitely the best option. If you stand right at the ledge, it goes far enough out that even perfect shortens at the lowest heights won't help. Neutral B is overrated, and I think Cactuar did a good job of explaining why. I'll just add its knockback at low %s is lame to the list of reasons to not use it. I think side-B, fair, and maybe even dsmash have some good potential, but I have no way of experimenting because comps don't side-B. :/

 

[Niko45]

If you just do a neutral B with no charge in anticipation of side B and they opted to up B, you should have plenty of time to jab/dtilt/cover high options on up B afterwards I think.

I'll experiment with it more.

 

[Construct]

Airborn neutral b for the spacie's side b leaves time to cover with whatever else you needed if they opt for an up-b. And just LOOK at that hitbox: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B9uzuFbJgvY&t=7m52s

 

[Bones0]

Well dtilt still seems to hit lower and further off stage than neutral B anyway.

 

[Niko45]

The hitbox is insane and critically it lasts a little longer than his typical boxes so I think it's one of the more unexplored Marth moves left. Bones idk if you really read my post cause I was just mentioning as a bonus that it can eat side B sweetspots but the real issue is good side B shortening coverage (which there is no answer to beyond hard read otherwise).

And before anyone says it no, double jab does not work.

 

[knightpraetor]

marth's eternal dilemma..i hate people who just always jump back mid distance close phantasm so that timing the jab requires anticipation rather than reaction...then they just shorten half the time and i'm really screwed out of the vaunted 100% coverage marth is supposed to have i'll try wavedashing to the ledge and jabbing so it sticks out farther though i guess....


i like aerial neutral b into release if they firefox...firefox is a lot easier to cover...

but i still have to ask is neutral b really better than just fair/nairing the phantasm?

i don't actually know cause i've never tried to cover phantasm with fair or nair cause no one does that

actually i do use fair to cover it off of run off if they jump back phantasm , but that's difference max distance phantasms are easy to cover with anything

 

[.Chipmunk.]

stand at the ledge and upsmash. It's got a low hitbox and a high one.

(no, I have no idea if this works, but I'm looking for new options)

 

[Fregadero]

Pretty sure its not as low as most good edgeguarding options, so idt it would cover a sweetspot

 

[Bones0]

The hitbox is insane and critically it lasts a little longer than his typical boxes so I think it's one of the more unexplored Marth moves left. Bones idk if you really read my post cause I was just mentioning as a bonus that it can eat side B sweetspots but the real issue is good side B shortening coverage (which there is no answer to beyond hard read otherwise).

And before anyone says it no, double jab does not work.

But neutral B doesn't help vs. shortens... The only thing I've ever had hit me out of a proper shorten is dtilt because it's the only move that goes far enough out. I'm not even sure neutral B's hitbox really lingers as long as everyone thinks anyway. It just seems like a misleading animation because it's so laggy. Just watching that video of Marth's hitboxes, I only counted maybe 3-4 frames where the move is even or below the ledge, which isn't impressive at all.

 

[MT_]

Why doesn't double jab work?

 

[JPOBS]

Something I do a lot whenever I play marth is fthrow them off -> run off -> DJ back on stage -> Fair

The fair is completely reactionary if they side-B, you Fair it, and if they shorten and fair misses, you can jab the shorten on reaction. If they Up-b instead, you can do whatever.

 

[Niko45]

Neutral b definitely helps vs shortens. Gonna test more to see if it's just situational or w/e

 

[Bones0]

I mean, you're welcome to test it, but my training partner and I were literally testing all the possible ways to deal with shortens for like 30 minutes straight the other day. Dtilt is just better than neutral B in every single way. lol

Less startup, less cool down (with IASA), more horizontal range, hits low enough that you can't side-B under it, can't be SDI teched, more KB, lower trajectory. Am I missing something? lol

 

[Niko45]

I play against great side b shortening on the regular and it was really effective. Dtilt doesn't cover both shorten and non shorten so idk what you are talking about.

 

[Dart!]

tipper tipper tipper is honestly the most fun combo

it sucks cause if I land two of them I'm obligated to try for the third and I usually get ***** for that

Serious question: Is neutral B the best way to edgeguard spacies side B? I'm beginning to think it is more and more. It seems very hard for them to sweetspot underneath it which is cool, but more importantly, I have huge huge problems edgeguarding spacies that are really proficient at side B shortening, but the neutral B hitbox lingers and it feels like just timing to hit a normal side B will also catch a shortened one as well, covering both options. Should this become staple?

IMO anytime spacies aren't in position to jump straight to ledge then you should go off stage to get them...

 

[Bones0]

I play against great side b shortening on the regular and it was really effective. Dtilt doesn't cover both shorten and non shorten so idk what you are talking about.

It just sounds like you aren't close enough to the edge then. Dtilt hits far enough that shortening doesn't even come into play. It doesn't affect the timing of side-B until the very end, which means you're trying to hit them at the end of the side-B instead of the middle.

 

[Cactuar]

Ya you should totally trust Bones for Marth advice. He and his training partner are high level players and know how to test Marth scenarios properly.

...

>.>

 

[clowsui]

Yeah Bones it's not like Niko plays with PC Chris or anything

In all seriousness Bones are you reacting with the dtilt? Seems like the only way you'll get dtilt to work is if you're ready for them to use side b and you **** them out of start up (or if they don't sweetspot then you bop em off ending lag)....but this situation is extremely rare and if you aren't precise you just clank w Falco side b lol. Whereas with neutral B you don't need to have that tight window of reaction, you just throw it out around when they'll use side b

 

[Niko45]

IMO anytime spacies aren't in position to jump straight to ledge then you should go off stage to get them...

Hmm I don't know if I quite agree with that. They can pull back really far and side B, or intentionally go really low hugging the stage with up B making going off stage difficult. Besides, in dealing with shortens it's very possible they COULD be in DJ sweetspot range but decided to pull back and shorten illusion instead.

@Bones no dtilt doesn't. Dtilt doesn't hit period because you can do the illusion slightly above ledge and just fall to the ledge. That's the entire danger of the situation, is that you have to respect regular side B because you can't afford to get hit by it, but if you "defend" yourself from that you will not cover shorten.

 

[leffen]

dtilt covers all low shortenings (since it hits so far) and jab->jab covers all high shortenings (that go over dtilt). Thats what I do (and Ice) and if you do it react properly it works everytime. Don't forget to teeter cancel/wavedash forward to the edge so that you'll always be properly spaced.

oh and side b is really slow, if you can't react to it theres something wrong

 

[Niko45]

I swear double jab doesn't work on a really good shorten, I'll pay more attention to it in the future.

 

[TheCrimsonBlur]

Double jab sucks against shortens. The first jab is out in 4 frames and its hitbox lasts for 4 more, but then there are 17 frames with no hitbox out, waiting for the second jab. If they decide to go high and shorten, they can easily time their fastfall (or not fastfall at all) to squeeze between that 17 frame window.

Compare it to SH fair->jab. Like jab, fair has a 4 frame active period, but now there are only 10 frames (7 lcancel + 3 jab startup) with no hitbox. It requires you to react slightly earlier since a FF SH is slower than a wavedash (by 11 frames), but I think the tradeoff is well worth it, particularly because I think its easy to know when a sideB is coming...

I'd recommend going for runoff jumpback aerials (dair, fair) off throws to cover illusions and SH fair->jab to cover longer range edgeguards, where you have to dash to get to the edge in time.

 

[Bones0]

Yeah Bones it's not like Niko plays with PC Chris or anything

In all seriousness Bones are you reacting with the dtilt? Seems like the only way you'll get dtilt to work is if you're ready for them to use side b and you **** them out of start up (or if they don't sweetspot then you bop em off ending lag)....but this situation is extremely rare and if you aren't precise you just clank w Falco side b lol. Whereas with neutral B you don't need to have that tight window of reaction, you just throw it out around when they'll use side b

You don't have to react to the Phantasm. You just have to react to their height. If they are above ledge height, you just wait. If they Phantasm, well then lol they'll get destroyed. If they up-B, then lol they'll get destroyed. If they drop back to ledge height, you dtilt. Even if they shorten perfectly they get hit, and if they up-B at or below ledge height, you can easily just run off-stage and gimp them because of dtilt's IASA frames.

As far as neutral B, like I said, I'm not sure it even has a longer lingering hitbox than any of Marth's other moves, and even if it does, it doesn't have the range of dtilt required to beat shortens.

Just fyi, most of my experience in edge guarding scenarios is from the Falco's point of view, not Marth's. I am not just getting edge guards and assuming I am covering every option. Every game I am doing every mixup and mindgame known to man (shine stalling, shortens, you name it) in order to recover. I know from these experiences that, assuming Marth is ready for the ledge guard before I am (i.e. not rushing across the stage to get to the ledge), he can force me into any KO situation. I either side-B onto the stage (I get fsmashed/whatever), side-B to the ledge (I get dtilted and gimped), or up-B (intercepted).

@Bones no dtilt doesn't. Dtilt doesn't hit period because you can do the illusion slightly above ledge and just fall to the ledge. That's the entire danger of the situation, is that you have to respect regular side B because you can't afford to get hit by it, but if you "defend" yourself from that you will not cover shorten.

If they side-B above your dtilt, you could easily dtilt again before they grab the ledge. If this doesn't sound possible, it's most likely because you are trying to dtilt the end of the Phantasm which is a waste of time because shortens are immune to it. You really just shouldn't be dtilting if they are above the ledge at all. If you just make moves based on their height, you'll be fine. If you are worried about them side-Bing right at you, SHFFL a nair/fair when you see them DJ, and then dtilt after. They'll either side-B high and get hit by the aerial or side-B to the ledge and get hit by your dtilt. Obviously if they up-B at any point you can just react and jump out to smack them.

 

[Niko45]

I just don't even know what to say anymore. Nevermind, smashboards!

 

[Bones0]

Agreeing to disagree is so frustrating, isn't it? lol

 

[Tee ay eye]

what are the best attacks to use if you want to swat samus' missiles?

 

[Strong Badam]

i usually jab or ftilt

 

[Bing]

Yeah I use f-tilt, I dont like waiting any longer then I have to/ I dont like letting them get too close.