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[Beat!]

Neutral B is great against spacies' recovery. I prefer using it when they're relatively far away, though.

Jab and ftilt are good vs missiles, but if the situation allows for it I like Fair more, because it makes the transition to offense/pressure more smooth.

 

[linkoninja]

Hey guys so I'm going to my first tournament tomorrow
can I get a quick summary on basic strategies against: Falcon, Marth (yes I don't know the matchup D and Samus?

and when Fox goes high what do you guys normally like to Punish with? I feel when I chase them in the air they just trick me and get the ledge too often >.<

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

Vs Marth: DI throws away. Sweetspot ledges perfectly. That's about all I have learned from the ditto.

 

[Dart!]

Hmm I don't know if I quite agree with that. They can pull back really far and side B, or intentionally go really low hugging the stage with up B making going off stage difficult. Besides, in dealing with shortens it's very possible they COULD be in DJ sweetspot range but decided to pull back and shorten illusion instead.
.

when they hug the wall just run off turn around forward b, and keep doing it. then tap them with up b and go from there. if they are good at teching the up b sweetspot the ledge and then continue from there.

Marth's edgegame didn't really get worse. Spacies just found new tricks to get around the popular choices. Think outside the box!

I mean hell run off jump back counter has never been used from what i've seen in the youtube world.

 

[Niko45]

If they are fox you can actually be shined and killed out of trying to forward B them to death below stage. If it's falco obviously it's free yea.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

How would you die from that? If they shine you, you still have your jump and they do not. Simply jump and upb back to the edge, likely hitting them with the upb. Their only option is to upb since they have no jump, and there is no way for them to get back to the edge/stage before you.

 

[TheGoat]

Hey cactuar and other marthers. regarding the falcon matchup, from what I can tell, falcon really wants you to approach, and not the other way around? (I know most matchups may boil down to this eventually, but this matchup moreso)

 

[knightpraetor]

You don't have to react to the Phantasm. You just have to react to their height. If they are above ledge height, you just wait. If they Phantasm, well then lol they'll get destroyed. If they up-B, then lol they'll get destroyed. If they drop back to ledge height, you dtilt. Even if they shorten perfectly they get hit, and if they up-B at or below ledge height, you can easily just run off-stage and gimp them because of dtilt's IASA frames.

As far as neutral B, like I said, I'm not sure it even has a longer lingering hitbox than any of Marth's other moves, and even if it does, it doesn't have the range of dtilt required to beat shortens.

don't actually know much about what the best option is for punishing phantasms but i wanted to say like 3 things.

first of all, what is the start up time of phantasm? everyone claims you can react to phantasm, but my testing for 30min on really close distance phantasms did not agree. i was killing the falco pretty much every time but i was anticipating based on tests. this is based on height like bones said..


though at full distance you can react easily.

however,i should point out that it is technically possible to time phantasm in between the first and 2nd jabs if you get the marth to jab early (when you are at head height or something) and then go early..but in reality if you jab twice the majority of the time you get them.

so with this glaring hole in marth's edgeguard game will falcos attempt to break the interjab window as i so thoroughly tested was possible?

no, they will try to shorten instead because your chances of living are a million times better. alas, another pointless technical piece of data that has no relevance on the actual game....at least i know i've contributed to the marth compendium of useless knowledge



on a more useful note:
anyway, i punish shortened phantasms with double jab, but correct me if i'm wrong, but if i do not wavedash to the ledge first before double jabbing, should they reach the ledge if they fastfall? i'm pretty sure most of the opponents i play with don't fastfall after the shorten

and the same thing with dtilt..of course dtilt will win if you get to the ledge, but honestly there are plenty of situations where you don't have the time to just wavedash to the ledge and they will reactively phantasm through your wavedash if you try since it's technically lag...

and i question how many of you actually wavedash to the ledge when you see the falco jump back and phantasm..or do none of you fear eating the dair/wavedash on shine from falco?

it may cause more problems than it solves if you attempt to edgeguard like leffen suggested...but i agree those will cover the phantasm flawlessly without miss.

are you really going to go all the way to the ledge and take the risk of them getting a sweetspot and retaking control..and if any of you have played pp, you should know that falco getting control = half a stock (unless you're on a big stage and then it's only 1/3 woot!!)

on a side note fair jab is better than double jab, the reason people don't go for it is they fear messing up and eating a phantasm while in the air and then dying off their own failed edgeguard attempt ( i don't try it either..but strictly on frame data and hitboxes it should be better)

also in response to niko, based on the frame data it looks like shieldbreaker hangs 6 frames instead of 4 like the other moves....so it really should only be covering the cancel if it takes less than 2-4 frames (since the first two the hitboxes aren't really in the right positions) of fall time...so i get the feeling it wouldn't work against high phantasm cancels but it might work against low ones but i have never tried this so i will play with it some this week hopefully.

but yeah i can't picture this actually helping most of the time if the phantasm cancel is done more than a centimeter above stage height.

but testing will show..i will test it at some point..thogh what would really be nice is if people would test it with AR...that marth's edgeguarding hitboxes is like the best video ever made for marth....i like find myself referencing it every two days..

if we had one demonstrating edgeguarding hitboxes vs shortened phantasm..life would be perfect...if only i had an AR setup..maybe when i go to nova i will talk with sypher

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Hey cactuar and other marthers. regarding the falcon matchup, from what I can tell, falcon really wants you to approach, and not the other way around? (I know most matchups may boil down to this eventually, but this matchup moreso)

Falcon generally has a really good approach, but a marth who is unwilling to approach in return has a lot of options for defending against falcon's approach. If marth is baited into moving forward, whether with an aerial, dash attack, dtilt, fsmash, grab or shield, falcon can just as easily stuff the approach (maybe easier). If both approach, falcon generally wins out due to his fall speed (hits the ground first, thus returns to neutral position sooner). There are some unique things, though, like if falcon and marth both nair at each other and trade first hits, marth can fair before either of them hit the ground to start a combo.

I kinda went off on a rant, but to answer your question, yes and no. Neither want to approach, and both do similarly well against the other's approach both in defense and in punishes.

 

[Bones0]

Whatever you do, don't be one of those Marths that tries to dash backwards and eats a giant-*** Falcon nair. lol

 

[Dart!]

Hey cactuar and other marthers. regarding the falcon matchup, from what I can tell, falcon really wants you to approach, and not the other way around? (I know most matchups may boil down to this eventually, but this matchup moreso)

This is a matchup won on patience and capitalization. Kill him off whatever he gives you. If you get a grab tech chase. If he's dashdance spacing just return the favor.

If you run in and wavedash back it gives off the illusion of approaching and any little bit will set off a falcon players auto pilot.

 

[Stylez]

This is a matchup won on patience and capitalization. Kill him off whatever he gives you. If you get a grab tech chase. If he's dashdance spacing just return the favor.

If you run in and wavedash back it gives off the illusion of approaching and any little bit will set off a falcon players auto pilot.

How many options does Marth have as far as baiting Falcon goes?

 

[.Chipmunk.]

How many options does Marth have as far as baiting Falcon goes?

You only need 2, dash dance and wave dash. Shield works as well.

 

[Cactuar]

I do a lot of dash back to bait nair, and then pivot shield into the nair on purpose.

 

[Dr Peepee]

@KP: What edgeguarding hitboxes video??

If a Falco is low, would it be better to grab the edge and then maybe DJ Bair any double jump side B attempts? I think Marth is usually safe from Dair when he throws/hits Falco offstage if he WDs right away but I'm not sure(and most Falcos don't seem to do it anyway, at least not right away). Maybe it's too slow and Falco would be zooming past Marth sometimes? Couldn't Marth punish lag on that usually though? I guess that's still not an edgeguard kill so whatever lol.

Ftilt might work since it sticks out more and hits low too iirc, but I dunno if it works on reaction to side B(shorten or not) yet based on frames and all. I'll have to check it out.

 

[t-iceman]

@KP: What edgeguarding hitboxes video??

If a Falco is low, would it be better to grab the edge and then maybe DJ Bair any double jump side B attempts? I think Marth is usually safe from Dair when he throws/hits Falco offstage if he WDs right away but I'm not sure(and most Falcos don't seem to do it anyway, at least not right away). Maybe it's too slow and Falco would be zooming past Marth sometimes? Couldn't Marth punish lag on that usually though? I guess that's still not an edgeguard kill so whatever lol.

Ftilt might work since it sticks out more and hits low too iirc, but I dunno if it works on reaction to side B(shorten or not) yet based on frames and all. I'll have to check it out.

In terms of the wd after dthrow/fthrow marth is not safe at some percents, i am not sure what they are but dair will def hit before marth grabs the edge. Ftilt definitely doesnt work on reaction against falco's side b, however it does work perfectly on fox. imo crouch and down tilt if they go low, let go of crouch to jab if they go mid level and just grab if they go too high is good enough for me. Most other options would need to be done on prediction and you risk eating a side B/letting them back on the stage. Neutral B is also very good if you can time it in the air so they cant sweetspot the ledge

This is the edgeguard hitbox video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B9uzuFbJgvY

 

[knightpraetor]

yeah neutral b timed correctly is good for close range phantasms when the falco has a phantasm option..at longer ranges i prefer to just reactively fair of course

if the falco DI's in on the throw he can dair on stage, so that in that situation you should wait till he falls to a lower height before committing to an option..if you wait long enough he cannot reactively sweetspot and DJ dair you on reaction for coming off, so at least you get your 50-50...if he doesn't DI the throw in (which has other risks), then i think sometimes you acn get their first because falcos are often in a position where they are just getting out of stun while you wavedash and they are afraid to risk going for an offstage dair because if you get the invincibility first they just die, so typically in those situations they just jump airdodge in my experience.

but honestly I haven't really tried it much because i think i waste frames figuring out what their DI was and then don't have the option to immediately go to the ledge.

 

[Dr Peepee]

In terms of the wd after dthrow/fthrow marth is not safe at some percents, i am not sure what they are but dair will def hit before marth grabs the edge. Ftilt definitely doesnt work on reaction against falco's side b, however it does work perfectly on fox. imo crouch and down tilt if they go low, let go of crouch to jab if they go mid level and just grab if they go too high is good enough for me. Most other options would need to be done on prediction and you risk eating a side B/letting them back on the stage. Neutral B is also very good if you can time it in the air so they cant sweetspot the ledge

This is the edgeguard hitbox video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B9uzuFbJgvY

Good to know man, and thanks for the video!

yeah neutral b timed correctly is good for close range phantasms when the falco has a phantasm option..at longer ranges i prefer to just reactively fair of course

if the falco DI's in on the throw he can dair on stage, so that in that situation you should wait till he falls to a lower height before committing to an option..if you wait long enough he cannot reactively sweetspot and DJ dair you on reaction for coming off, so at least you get your 50-50...if he doesn't DI the throw in (which has other risks), then i think sometimes you acn get their first because falcos are often in a position where they are just getting out of stun while you wavedash and they are afraid to risk going for an offstage dair because if you get the invincibility first they just die, so typically in those situations they just jump airdodge in my experience.

but honestly I haven't really tried it much because i think i waste frames figuring out what their DI was and then don't have the option to immediately go to the ledge.

I like doing stuff LOL that's probably part of my problem XD I don't want him to just jump and grab the edge or side b shorten sweetspot to it lol.

And yeah now that you mention it I did feel way more scared when they DI'd in on the throw, which should not be the case imo(feels like he shouldn't be rewarded for that but maybe that's just me being weird). What about doing a SH and then either wavelanding to the edge or Dair'ing/Bair'ing based on how early the Falco jumps from a Dthrow? That one seems good in my head but I'm not totally sure if it works out at all percents and such.

 

[knightpraetor]

that works in my head too, it also leaves them guessing a bit more than just standing and waiting and then moving, though again the jump airdodge will probably get through and catch you wavelanding to the edge..but you can't cover everything.

 

[Dr Peepee]

Edge jump Uair would leave them without a jump though and comboable/grabbable in most situations so I don't mind if that works tbh haha.

 

[Bones0]

When I dthrow them off I just predict their DI and then retroactively react to it. So for example, if I think he will DI away I go for the WD off bair, and then by the time I've WDed I realize he DI'd in so I counter/shield/WD back to the center instead. Predicting the DI in is less risky, but will generally garner less reward, or at least less guaranteed options. If I think he will instant DJ dair back on I just WD back, but if I realize he DI'd away, it's hard to cover shortens to the ledge, but anything else you can still cover quite well by just WDing back towards the ledge. Obviously if you predicted their DI away correctly, you can just go through with the bair or if you predicted DI in correctly, fsmash.

 

[Musketeer04]

Is how much you wave dash based on preference? M2K wave dashes a lot, I was just wondering how much I should wave dash?

 

[Bones0]

I would suggest using WDing as often as possible in your game, and then once you figure out where it's useful/useless you can use it more sparingly. Just don't be one of those people that tries to get by with only dashing and DDing for spacing. For the past few months I've been steadily forcing more and more WDing into my game and it has helped A LOT. So many simple WD tricks can lead to huge combos with virtually every character.

 

[Niko45]

22-27 times per game

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

One WD to the ledge. Then perhaps 2nd jump -> WD back to the ledge shortly after to attempt to bait a reaction. Maybe throw in a WD off of platforms to once again bait a response. That might be in waiting off invincibility on stocks or during neutral position. Get a throw -> wave dash to and wait for tech option. Throw in 2nd jump -> WD in place off ledge or further into the stage. WD -> Dtilt a landing or spacing an option from the ledge. Dash -> WD back or Walk -> WD back for position or baits. WD out of shield for punishes or to escape pressure. WD for readjusting your running to allow for a pivot.

I'd think you use WD way more than 22-27 times in a match.

Also, question about getting off the ledge. 2nd jump -> Fair -> regrab ledge. Useful?
Or would Fair or Uair work better against crouch canceling? Not sure which leads to lower percents before crouching canceling gets people off the ground even after crouch canceling.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

I thought the perfect number was right around 39.25

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

sq(86) is a much better number.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

ln( 18)

 

[ChinesePanda777]

Moved to critiquing thread.

 

[.Chipmunk.]

Is how much you wave dash based on preference? M2K wave dashes a lot, I was just wondering how much I should wave dash?

First off, congrats. You gave me a laugh reading all those trolling answers to your question. The answer, however, isn't set in stone. The overall answer is to be unpredictable with your movements. There are times when you WD often, and times when it will be scarce. You want to disguise your approaches, your grabs, and your spacing. As soon as you see a pattern forming, odds are that your opponent will too and it's time to mix it up.

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

I can't beat a natural log counter-pick >_>

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

well you could break even if you used e

 

[Dr Peepee]

Also, question about getting off the ledge. 2nd jump -> Fair -> regrab ledge. Useful?
Or would Fair or Uair work better against crouch canceling? Not sure which leads to lower percents before crouching canceling gets people off the ground even after crouch canceling.

Fair regrab edge is super useful because people like punishing Marth if he jumps above the edge often, and even more so on reaction when he swings. Mixing between this and Fair'ing barely onto the stage and Fair'ing fully onto the stage seems legit to me.

I'd imagine whichever aerial did more damage would be better for breaking CC, but if I felt like I could space it I'd Uair because that move has quite a bit of stun when tippered and it's better to combo off of regardless of DI.

 

[knightpraetor]

question: can ICs endlessly blizzard?

if they put it out to block marth's ledgehop on does that just mean i need to stall more in between getting back on?

because blizzard at the ledge when marth is hanging on the ledge seems really good..if marth fairs/jumps on he is hit by blizzard, waveland on he is hit by blizzard when the invuln wears out and therefore easily grabbed.

is stand on into shield after invuln and fair a valid option or will it hit you anyways? can I CC the blizzard and get actionability? should i risk jumping over the blizzard?

anyway, i will test them all later, but i figured someone here has to know the answers.


also in answer to that last question, upair is not safe on CC if you are doing regrab, but it will break CC faster. if you use it you can get counter gimps if you go on stage after the upair, but i find that a lot of people fake getting in range and then try to FH falling bair over your upair if you go on stage...so i stopped using it...when i used it i would beat people of lower skill level than me with 4 stocks usually due to the extra gimps but actually did worse against people higher level than me.

i think the risk of them baiting it is too high at most percents since they may countergimp you but you only get an upair to fsmash or upair to grab...so really it's probably only worth it at high percents, and i found that in general wavelanding on stage and taking center gets marth more if they are actually spacing close enough to get hit by that upair.


oh finally i have two more questions: does marth's hover actually cancel momentum you have if you do it in the opposite direction you're flying? what about aerials like fair?

 

[Musketeer04]

First off, congrats. You gave me a laugh reading all those trolling answers to your question. The answer, however, isn't set in stone. The overall answer is to be unpredictable with your movements. There are times when you WD often, and times when it will be scarce. You want to disguise your approaches, your grabs, and your spacing. As soon as you see a pattern forming, odds are that your opponent will too and it's time to mix it up.

Thank you, I have just recently gotten back into the melee scene, so I am kinda a noob.

 

[Dart!]

Ftilt is obscenely underused. Especially for edgeguarding.

 

[Dr Peepee]

question: can ICs endlessly blizzard?

if they put it out to block marth's ledgehop on does that just mean i need to stall more in between getting back on?

because blizzard at the ledge when marth is hanging on the ledge seems really good..if marth fairs/jumps on he is hit by blizzard, waveland on he is hit by blizzard when the invuln wears out and therefore easily grabbed.

is stand on into shield after invuln and fair a valid option or will it hit you anyways? can I CC the blizzard and get actionability? should i risk jumping over the blizzard?

anyway, i will test them all later, but i figured someone here has to know the answers.


also in answer to that last question, upair is not safe on CC if you are doing regrab, but it will break CC faster. if you use it you can get counter gimps if you go on stage after the upair, but i find that a lot of people fake getting in range and then try to FH falling bair over your upair if you go on stage...so i stopped using it...when i used it i would beat people of lower skill level than me with 4 stocks usually due to the extra gimps but actually did worse against people higher level than me.

i think the risk of them baiting it is too high at most percents since they may countergimp you but you only get an upair to fsmash or upair to grab...so really it's probably only worth it at high percents, and i found that in general wavelanding on stage and taking center gets marth more if they are actually spacing close enough to get hit by that upair.


oh finally i have two more questions: does marth's hover actually cancel momentum you have if you do it in the opposite direction you're flying? what about aerials like fair?

If they just keep blizzarding, then my first thought is to do that edge jump to go over it. I guess Marth could stall a little and see if he could find a whole in their blizzarding pattern/change up his timing, but I've never seen an ICs do that so I can't feel like it's THAT good.


Edit @Dart: Ftilt does indeed **** for edgeguarding and in general. Sick move <3

 

[knightpraetor]

i guess my issue is more that they start it in response to my ledgehop..so maybe stall once, then jump to get over it? but basically that means i need to be stalling more so that i can bait out attempts at blizzarding my get on.

also, ftilt is my main ledgeguard after throws against falcon not fsmash.....dtilt can be spaced over, but ftilt always knocks them off and i can always go off and followup.

on another note...today the weirdest thing happened where i jumped out of shield between the hits of falcon's nair and naired him..is that even possible? it looked really weird

 

[Dr Peepee]

I meant when you push jump while still hanging onto the edge lol.

Edit: Fthrow Ftilt? Hm....I'll play around with that.

 

[Beat!]

Can't believe I missed the math jokes.

sadface