Important Carefully Ask PPMD about the Tiara Guy

[.Chipmunk.]

No, KP is right. You can't sourspot a uair (staled, nonetheless) and combo with another uair. Even at high %s you won't even be able to get another uair off in time, especially if they DI to make you dash first.

I'm fairly certain I've gotten 2 sourspot uairs in a row before.

 

[Beat!]

I love non tip fair.



Does anyone here have any experience with teaming with Puff? I'm teaming with one this weekend and could use some pointers (apart from obvious stuff like grab-rest).

 

[Bones0]

Have a "You Must Recover" attitude when you're teaming with Puff. They can save you a lot of the time, but only if you actually up-B to try to make it back (obviously at some %s it becomes not worth it, but just use your judgement). Also make sure you're waking them up immediately after they rest. The last thing you want your teammate to be worried about is getting usmashed by a Fox if he goes for a rest. I'd rather have a rest-happy Puff that I have to wake up frequently than a more conservative Puff that gets 50% less rests.

Also be prepared for the other team to gang up on you. Especially as Marth, you're extremely vulnerable to cluster**** tactics. I would try to just stay near Puff as much as possible to help her and keep yourself from getting caught in chaos, and maybe throw out some counters if she gets knocked away and both opponents are gunning for you.

 

[MT_]

Keep in mind that Puff is slow and know that you can get double-teamed easily by a fast team like fox/fox and fox/falco, especially on large stages where it takes Puff a long time to cross the stage.

Also, teaming with Puff is a little luxurious because unless you like tipper f-smash her, she isn't prone to dying from your attacks as much as other characters because of her essentially unlimited recovery; a fox teammate getting fsmashed however for example could easily get edgeguarded and killed whereas Puff would just recover. So, assuming your teammate has good DI, you're able to swing a little more freely when situations come up where you can hit both Puff and your opponents, because it will usually end in your favor.

I teamed with a Puff and won teams in the last two tourneys we entered; I could dig some videos out if you want.

 

[Divinokage]

Ah yes.. double Fox = Team Faceroll #1, Fox/Falco = Faceroll #2. They can just press buttons and quickly combo someone so you HAVE to interrupt them at all times, it's always good to knock one back and double team the other.

 

[Strong Badam]

grab them and then puff rests

 

[Mahone]

I love non tip fair.



Does anyone here have any experience with teaming with Puff? I'm teaming with one this weekend and could use some pointers (apart from obvious stuff like grab-rest).

bones is pretty much right on everything.

try to stay close to her, otherwise you will just get ***** really badly with constant 2v1s, stalling offstage far away (maybe even using counter lol, i never thought about that until now) and then up-bing straight up and letting puff pound you is pretty safe and can allow you to live much longer

talk to your teammate beforehand on how you want to deal with grabs vs spacies on fd, like sometimes it is better for you to regrab a couple times before letting them rest if they're teammate is far away to ensure you kill them off the grab (i know this is sorta random but it came up last weekend when i played)

talk about how to edgeguard and what you're roles are, its hard for marth to remember that he doesn't need to try to cover every option like in singles, plus, going out there to, for example, bair a spacie upbing is much more dangerous in teams, so have a plan going in on how to cover high and low recoveries

one thing i really liked doing is having the marth get a spacie on the platform and maybe doing like one uptilt or upair, but then letting the jiggs get a chance to try to tech chase rest the platform instead of just taking another upair/uptilt whatever... then if they are wrong, just use a move to wake them up and maybe hit the opponent too

 

[Dr Peepee]

i don't think dtilt is that great vs falcon cuz he can jump over it
but maybe im missing something

it gets me naired or stomped half the time against GG7

by the way, what do you guys like to do against falcos that stay in one spot (about falco's shffl nair range) and don't commit to anything? i feel like all of my openings against falco come from me being able to bait them in, but i feel kinda useless if they just stay in place and wait for me to get trapped in shield or to throw out something stupidly. do i just have to take space REALLY slowly and figure out whether they're going to stay in the same spot, attack me, or if they're going to run back?

Depends on how you do Dtilt then. I just run up close to most DD people(they all run away) and Dtilt. This results in a shield or dash away the majority of the time. As Marth, I really enjoy both of those things because Falcon has less options then and it's much easier to control a Falcon with less options. S2J never once Nair'd/stomped me, but I guess no one will accept that as a solid anecdote despite him being a good player, so I'll just say you should try Dtilt'ing closer to the opponent and seeing how that goes based on my word. If Falcon jumps before you do the move, then free Fairs/other things are cool to me lol.

I like SH Fair'ing Falco, but then again I just like SH Fair lol. WD is probably amazing vs Falco but I haven't learned how to really use it yet lol.

^I agree about dtilt, not really something you can throw out there vs Falcon. Once conditioning has set in I think it becomes pretty useful cause Falcons love to just DD shield camp and be really really gay (once you start exploiting their aerial approaches/gimmicks). I might push an advantage with dtilt but taking stage sounds like neutral and you could be losing a stock there tho I have a feeling I'm not envisioning what PP's talking about correctly.

Playing against Falcon imo boils down to abusing your shield, him abusing his shield, getting grabs at low % and being insanely gay and then trying to find utilts at mid % and then killing him. Dropzone fair/DJ dair to blow up him just DJ sweetspot recovering which every Falcon loves to do since it's their most obviously safe recovery option if not called on it. Not falling for gimmicky stuff like them dairing you on top of platforms or like full hopping and coming down with a non FF dair/knee etc. If you ever get caught out of position anticipate uairs with a counter I find to be pretty good as most falcons get bloodthirsty when they see an up air opportunity, and considering how (besides counter) you can't at all challenge it from above they're likely to just go for it.

Stationary Falcos I think the best thing is to take lasers and dash attack them. Or if they just wait for you to get close and go in and THEN come at you then it's just taking lasers and getting close enough to bait something and make him scared to laser without committing yourself and getting nair'd in the face.

How does Marth abuse his shield against Falcon? I never really like shielding as Marth if I can help it, even though I never feel particularly threatened in shield.

Why did I never think about countering Uairs?? LOL so good and obvious.

I still think marth vs falco is all about getting on top of him and grabbing him > death
Marth should be able to swallow up all the room falco has with stage control. Letting falco get comfortable is what loses marth the match in this matchup.

I don't think you powershield, so what do you believe is the best way to take stage vs Falco?

dash forward retreating fair is OP

Something I should do more and constantly forget about. Noted, and thanks for posting that.



@BONES FORGOT TO QUOTE YOU: Nair to beat Falco's Nair?? Does that work? Whoa I gotta test that LOL that'd change how I played the matchup haha. Thanks for the idea dude. =)

And PP, sounds like you should come to the NW more often to play ^_^

I really think I should as well. =)

well, on FD there is no guaranteed string of upair into fsmash finish at high percents..so we use nair like in m2k's match vs leffen in crews...but the problem with finishing with up b is often they are too high above us or they have a chance to jump out in which case we don't want to be up+B ing

though i really should start using it to end fair strings when they DI out of dair instead of just taking a nair or fair

also, that waas my conclusion too chip...play defensive till the float ends...contesting peaches float seems pretty high risk for low reward most of the time

Weak hit Uair plz

Also that up-B out of their DI away in Fair chains is GOOD. Also something smart and I'm glad you pointed out to me. =)

M2K should have used more weak upairs to keep me lower and then finish me of with a tipper. You should use the fact that you have leeway for your upair to keep them low.
I know Armada says this a lot, and its very very true. Even M2K doesnt really optimize his marth combos on FD

However, it should be noted that USA had such an incredible lead in the crew battle that all M2K had to do was go even with me and it was done. Using nair and tipper uairs was better considering the circumstances.

I agree with all of this. Weak hit upair is amazing.

bones is pretty much right on everything.

try to stay close to her, otherwise you will just get ***** really badly with constant 2v1s, stalling offstage far away (maybe even using counter lol, i never thought about that until now) and then up-bing straight up and letting puff pound you is pretty safe and can allow you to live much longer

talk to your teammate beforehand on how you want to deal with grabs vs spacies on fd, like sometimes it is better for you to regrab a couple times before letting them rest if they're teammate is far away to ensure you kill them off the grab (i know this is sorta random but it came up last weekend when i played)

talk about how to edgeguard and what you're roles are, its hard for marth to remember that he doesn't need to try to cover every option like in singles, plus, going out there to, for example, bair a spacie upbing is much more dangerous in teams, so have a plan going in on how to cover high and low recoveries

one thing i really liked doing is having the marth get a spacie on the platform and maybe doing like one uptilt or upair, but then letting the jiggs get a chance to try to tech chase rest the platform instead of just taking another upair/uptilt whatever... then if they are wrong, just use a move to wake them up and maybe hit the opponent too

Didn't read Mahone's post but it's probably right even though we usually suck as a team LOL. <3

 

[Bones0]

I'm about to go smash, so I'll try and keep an eye out specifically for more details about how Falco's nair vs. Marth's nair plays out.

 

[Dr Peepee]

Word, post up on it please man.

 

[Beat!]

Thanks, guys.

 

[Blood Falcon11]

Does anyone have tips with Marth VS Young Link and Marth VS Pikachu matchups?

 

[Tee ay eye]

**** pikachu

 

[Armada]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BkwQRhJVHIk#t=54m10s

Kinda hard to squeeze in an fsmash in those kind of situations.

The problem is that he u-tilt the second time. Many Marth players seems to overrate that move when it comes to combos when UAIR is a better move to use.

After the first u-tilt he "should" have used uair if Leffen tried to DI offstage he should have gone for tipper. If Leffen tried to DI in to the center he sould have used 1 or 2 more uairs before tipper or if he didnt DI at all he should have done one uair tipper.

I think Leffen can agree with me when I say those Uair chains is really underrated and always connect to tipper

 

[Beat!]

That makes sense.

 

[.Chipmunk.]

Hey so, what's the secret to platform drop fairing and landing back on the same platform? Originally, I only thought it was possible on DL when the wind was blowing because that's the only time I could do it, but now I know you can do it on any platform.

 

[MT_]

I think it only works if you hit the opponent immediately after dropping.

 

[.Chipmunk.]

I think it only works if you hit the opponent immediately after dropping.

Oh really? That sucks. I wanna be able to do it at any time.

 

[Niko45]

Wow idk if Tai's been reading my posts but after watching him vs s2j I saw great examples of what I've been talking about lately with non tip fair edgeguards and aggressive grabbing. Awesome set.

 

[JPOBS]

Tai's got so much swag in his style. my favorite marth atm

 

[Tee ay eye]

Wow idk if Tai's been reading my posts but after watching him vs s2j I saw great examples of what I've been talking about lately with non tip fair edgeguards and aggressive grabbing. Awesome set.

the non-tip fair edgeguards are partially because of you and partially cuz i saw shroomed do them against SS

dunno about the grabs. i think i just did them lol

 

[Beat!]

Yeah that was a tight set

 

[Niko45]

I'm not going to lie I learn a lot watching shroomed's marth.

 

[Tee ay eye]

btw

we did some testing the other week (in response to what iceman said), and axe was still able to land uthrow knee on me if i DI'ed up and away. however, it did diminish his reaction time on the uthrow knee at first because he wasn't expecting it, so i guess it could help in that respect.

BY THE WAY, for anyone who doesn't know, DI only acts in a direction perpendicular to the standard trajectory of the attack. it's like applying torque to a lever arm. if you DI in a way that's not perpendicular to the attack's trajectory, the magnitude of the DI you get will be diminished. if you DI parallel to an attack, absolutely nothing happens (tested this too).

i just did some testing, and if you DI fox's uthrow (sends you straight up) up-left (at a 45 degree angle), it will kill at the same percents that it would if you DIed it down-left.

i'm going to GUESS that if you wanted to calculate the magnitude of diminished DI, it would be (F)*(sinX) where F is the magnitude of full DI, and X is the angle between your DI and the trajectory of the attack. sin(90) is 1, so you get full undiminished DI. sin(0) is 0, so you get no DI. sin(45) is 1/2, so if your DI was at a 45 degree angle from the attack, it would probably be as though you did half-DI perpendicular to the attack.

Spoiler

DISCLAIMER: this isn't to say that partial DI isn't useful. it is.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

The problem is that he u-tilt the second time. Many Marth players seems to overrate that move when it comes to combos when UAIR is a better move to use.

After the first u-tilt he "should" have used uair if Leffen tried to DI offstage he should have gone for tipper. If Leffen tried to DI in to the center he sould have used 1 or 2 more uairs before tipper or if he didnt DI at all he should have done one uair tipper.

I think Leffen can agree with me when I say those Uair chains is really underrated and always connect to tipper

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zYW4GuwM1uI#t=7m20s

I was watching rapex2 and saw that combo and thought of this discussion.

 

[Strong Badam]

tai: that's old stuff. search my posts for sin² and you'll probably find the formula i posted one day.
EDIT: looks like smashboards search function doesn't work w/ ². i'll try to find it via other means

 

[Dr Peepee]

Perpendicular huh? That's some information I never knew. I may be back with a nooby DI question eventually lol. Thanks Tai!

 

[ShroudedOne]

I thought that was common knowledge? I read somewhere that you just DI perpendicularly according to the trajectory of the attack for maximum DI. It's like my DI got ten times better once I learned that.

 

[Tee ay eye]

tai: that's old stuff. search my posts for sin² and you'll probably find the formula i posted one day.
EDIT: looks like smashboards search function doesn't work w/ ². i'll try to find it via other means

i know it's old stuff, but i still find some people who think that DI-ing directly with an attack or against an attack does something. most people know that perpendicular DI for survival is the best because it curves you out of the way of the blast line, but a lot of people still don't have a very clear understanding of how DI actually works, so i wanted to make that clear now (since we were talking about up-away DI on falcon's uthrow)

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

I think most people just learn that moving the stick changes things and then from experience learn the best place to move their stick in the situation.

 

[knightpraetor]

Weak hit Uair plz

The fundamental problem is that the weak hit upairs only truly combo into ground moves..i can go for weak hit upairs but then my opponent will get more chances to jump out...though maybe that in itself is preferable to guaranteed damage up to 100 that doesn't net a kill..

but yeah, everyone seems to think weak hit upair is good, so i would like to see some vids / explanation of where exactly i should be using it. i already use it at 60-80ish off of upairs at times to link to ground moves, but the linking to fsmash doesn't kill..should i link grab instead? I seem to get the most success out of that...the problem with linking grab is i then get to the 90-100 range when nothing but reverse fair and nairs hit (got stuck in this situation about 10 times over the course of 3 matches with yay's fox).

but yeah, i will admit i don't know how to use weak hit upairs. I want to use it a lot of the time after i have hit them up in the air with a strong upair..but i know from exp that if i hit the weak upair up high they can jump out before i can do anything..and if i wait to hit the weak hit upair once they are lower they can jump out before they get low enough for the upair to hit weak.


i'm guessing i should just end the combo earlier and attempt to get a tipper fsmash

 

[Dr Peepee]

Well, you can do that tipper Fsmash or Fair after it and take their jump and then Fsmash, which is really funny and sets up free edgeguards. Also a pretty good DI mixup because they have to decide if they want to DI the Fair out to maybe avoid the Fsmash or DI in to survive the Fsmash. If they just hold in and don't jump for some reason, then you get more Fairs before Fsmash obviously, which makes your edgeguard pretty easy anyway(unless you tipper then they may die depending on %).

All I know is whenever I hit weak hit Uairs I never sweat them jumping out. Sometimes I even let spacies jump out so I can Uair them again and they can't jump out anymore and the edgeguard is free after that too lol.

 

[knightpraetor]

lol, yeah probably..i just need to get more consistent at killing them after their jump out i guess. i will work on it. i'm just wired for autodamage when i'm chaingrabbing and i think weak upair and letting them jump out occasionally is probably better....

especially based on how bad grab options are past 90.

 

[Shroomed]

Marth is so much fun and I'm still learning stuff. I hope my Marth will be ready by the next national.

 

[MasterShake]

Shroomed I'd so much rather watch you play Doc. Not because I hate your marth, I just like what you do with doc more.

 

[Bones0]

I have such mixed feeling about getting to see Shroomed's Marth. D:

 

[KILLA.FOR.CASH.]

**** dajuans marth

**** IT

 

[.Chipmunk.]

This weak hit uair not comboing into other aerials just can't be true. Maybe rising uair, but no way falling weak hit uair doesn't combo. I combo it into nair or fair all the time.

 

[Bones0]

You're probably hitting with the medium strength uair.

 

[.Chipmunk.]

You're probably hitting with the medium strength uair.

I've never really thought about a 'medium strength' hit before. To me it's always been strong or weak. I know whatever I'm doing is working so I'm not gonna change it. Far be it from me to argue with you guys. Not that I want to anyway.