Important Carefully Ask PPMD about the Tiara Guy

[MT_]

It wouldn't be possible against the Marios because their up-b hits multiple times. After you get knocked off the ledge, the rest of the up-b would hit you and you wouldn't grab the ledge. This eliminates Roy and Peach from the possibilities and any other multi-hitting side-bs. Marth can lightshield edgehog himself though! You just have to time the fastfall properly haha. (Though the options after grabbing the ledge and he up-b'd onto the stage aren't that good. Maybe you could "fake" a lightshield edgehog and not DI off the stage; then after he up-bs onto the stage you drop your shield and f-smash his *** lol.)

I've never tried the lightshield edgehog against Luigi. Seems like it would work pretty well actually; the only issue I can see is that Luigi's up-b might not hit high enough to hit your shield and send you off if he sweetspots it perfectly. Will have to test this.

 

[Wenbobular]

Luigi can sweetspot well enough to get past it I believe, the hitbox isn't nearly as big as Marth's sword above his head
Most Luigis are bad though

However you don't get too many chances to do this because Luigi can DI hella high and recover in such a way that he never needs to put himself in a position to get lightshield edgehogged
I'd rather spike high uncharged missiles and cover charged missiles some other way because you know where he's going to go and side-b has mad lag

Also I don't think you have to do anything special about Marth (i.e. pretty sure fastfalling just gives you more room to die a stupid looking death)

If you're going to try a lightshield bait, why not just wavedash out early and Fsmash him before he gets his jump back?
Or try spike -> spike
Letting him land then Fsmashing seems loose though

 

[Niko45]

I thought it couldn't be done to the marios because of the multi-hitting property of their up B, but Luigi does sound interesting actually.

 

[Beat!]

Yeah I gotta try that.

 

[ChinesePanda777]

If you're bad like me and fail juggling people when they're on platforms above you, you can try neutral-B when you know they're going to shield in time. I actually got this to work in tournament on a player better than me, and it was quite satisfying to crack shield from 50% to 0%. Probably pretty gimmicky but it's fun.

\o/

 

[Fregadero]

Marth players need more b moves in general

 

[Shroomed]

How effective is counter OOS?? Mainly for fox/falco shield pressure.

 

[MT_]

How effective is counter OOS?? Mainly for fox/falco shield pressure.

I think it is a decent option if they are pressuring the back of your shield and your only other retaliatory option is like dair OOS. Counter OOS isn't any faster (I'm pretty sure it's slower) than just grabbing, so if they are pressuring the front of your shield I don't see how countering would be better than grabbing in any way. It could also be decent for if they are falling from a full-hop and you don't think you can get a shffl uair out in time, or you don't think you can wavedash out of the way fast enough.

 

[Teczer0]

Personally I think counter OOS is just too slow, the few times I tried it I got punished for it anyway.

I usually resort to roll/WD oos

 

[Tee ay eye]

i like counter OOS but i dont spam it

 

[.Chipmunk.]

Personally I think counter OOS is just too slow, the few times I tried it I got punished for it anyway.

I usually resort to roll/WD oos

Too slow? Counter OoS can be as fast as shine OoS. You need 1 frame of jump, and frame 2 can be the first frame of counter.

 

[Dr Peepee]

Counter's weird. I just read the frame thread and counter is invincible frame 1-16, but it doesn't counter anything until frame 5 and onward. I guess that makes it pretty solid OOS vs spacie pressure but if the spacie doesn't attack or they super delay something then you get ***** unlike with shine OOS.

Connecting with counter can lead to good things though so I'm gonna play around with this and see how it goes.

 

[Teczer0]

Isn't jump 4 frames? Anyway I meant it during shield pressure.

It just feels slow since you need to wait out the shield stun and everything.

Unlike shine oos too, it lasts forever if you miss. *shrugs* it has never really quite worked out all that well for me.

 

[Anand]

Too slow? Counter OoS can be as fast as shine OoS. You need 1 frame of jump, and frame 2 can be the first frame of counter.

Shine OoS isn't 2 frames...

For things like usmash and up-B OoS, you can interrupt jumpsquat with the attack, so they only require 1 frame for the jump.

For shine OoS, counter OoS, fair OoS, etc., you have to do them after you are airborne (earliest possible would be on the first airborne frame, which is something like frame 5).

Also, counter doesn't start frame 1 (see below).

Counter's weird. I just read the frame thread and counter is invincible frame 1-16, but it doesn't counter anything until frame 5 and onward. I guess that makes it pretty solid OOS vs spacie pressure but if the spacie doesn't attack or they super delay something then you get ***** unlike with shine OOS.

Connecting with counter can lead to good things though so I'm gonna play around with this and see how it goes.

Haha, I hope KirbyKaze namesearches this (because we were just talking about how I misread the frame thread the same way PP did).

You're invincible frames 1-16 after somebody triggers the counter. For the first 4 frames after you hit "down+B" you are still vulnerable.

Counters: 5-29

--when it counters--
Total: 46
Hit: 14-20 (or 1 frame later for real
strong moves)
Invincible 1-16

 

[Dr Peepee]

Well Armada hits with Nair OOS with Peach in the middle of spacie pressure and that's like 8 frames lol.

That's a good point you're stuck in lag forever if you miss. It'll have to be more sparing than a Peach Nair OOS, but it could still have niche uses, particularly when the opponent wants to stay on your shield.



edit: OHHHHH WHEN IT COUNTERS

yeah okay this is pretty janky stuff then LMAO not that good of an idea unless you have a huge read

 

[Beat!]

I KNEW SOMETHING WAS WRONG WITH THAT FRAME DATA

I've heard it before and it sounded weird then too.

 

[Teczer0]

Yea if they spam shield pressure I just WD oos fsmash.

Like I've tried counter before with very little success *shrugs*

 

[.Chipmunk.]

Shine OoS isn't 2 frames...

For things like usmash and up-B OoS, you can interrupt jumpsquat with the attack, so they only require 1 frame for the jump.

For shine OoS, counter OoS, fair OoS, etc., you have to do them after you are airborne (earliest possible would be on the first airborne frame, which is something like frame 5).

Also, counter doesn't start frame 1 (see below).

Hang on. If you had to be airborne then you couldn't multishine with just jump and shine. Multishining is canceling the shine with a jump, then shining -before- you leave the ground, correct? It's the same with counter, you can execute it -before- you leave the ground, which I've been assuming means you only need to have at least 1 frame of jump animation to be able to trigger it.

Haha, I hope KirbyKaze namesearches this (because we were just talking about how I misread the frame thread the same way PP did).

You're invincible frames 1-16 after somebody triggers the counter. For the first 4 frames after you hit "down+B" you are still vulnerable.

Oh, I did the same thing. Thought it came out on frame 1 and then hit took 5 frames. That makes sense then.

 

[MT_]

Hang on. If you had to be airborne then you couldn't multishine with just jump and shine. Multishining is canceling the shine with a jump, then shining -before- you leave the ground, correct? It's the same with counter, you can execute it -before- you leave the ground, which I've been assuming means you only need to have at least 1 frame of jump animation to be able to trigger it.

Shining on the first airborne frame prevents you from actually leaving the ground, but it's necessary to be technically "airborne" before you can do anything out of jump (other than up-smash and up-b). Notice how you have to push b slower as Falco than as Fox in order to get the shine OOS out; this is because Falco's jump is slower.

 

[Van.]

how do you cc shield grab without spotdodging

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

hold down
press L/R

do you spotdodge?

 

[.Chipmunk.]

Shining on the first airborne frame prevents you from actually leaving the ground, but it's necessary to be technically "airborne" before you can do anything out of jump (other than up-smash and up-b). Notice how you have to push b slower as Falco than as Fox in order to get the shine OOS out; this is because Falco's jump is slower.

I wouldn't know. I don't play spacies, just Marth atm. Thanks for the information.

 

[knightpraetor]

I like counter out of shield at places at times...especially if i'm absolutely certain they are spamming tech skill on me as they can't stop spamming it reactively in time. . I don't like going for it when they actually are overlapping me perfectly though, i'd rather just wait for the shine or roll...counter OOS is even slower than WD out of range, so i don't think it works in those situations

edit: actually when thinking about it i think teczero's answer of wding out of shield into fsmash is much better..i use that like 90% of the time, and I'm not sure i could justify my usage of counter except in actual places where i have few options and would be forced to airdodge/move.

Honestly I tip so much of the time when I WD out of shield, but I am guessing at low percents counter might still be better as I often experience falco being too high after being wd out of shield into tipper and having too many recovery options. ...at low percents fsmash also sends them too far away while counter will setup a techchase probably. ..mid-high percents fsmash /ftilt definitely win out though

 

[TheCrimsonBlur]

I've found that in the vast majority of situations where counter oos seems like a good idea, there are actually much better options.

 

[JPOBS]

wd oos is pretty much the only thing I choose to do oos as marth.

wd oos -> grab whiffed aerial is op.

 

[odinNJ]

I find that wavedashing oos forward can be used as a mixup. Tricky to time though

 

[Teczer0]

Fair OOS is pretty good.

So is dair if they expect it and try to CC you or something.

Stolen straight from Niko, yea man.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Upb OoS has the same frame data as falco's shine OoS (1 frame slow/in the air) including a frame of invincibility on the first active frame.

 

[Bones0]

Counter OoS is def good. I'm used to it, and it still hits me every once in a while. It's great when they're on your back because they are comfortable going for late aerials.

 

[Niko45]

fair oos is amazing and essential!

just had a convo about that with PC yesterday

 

[Teczer0]

Good thing I already know about :3c.

I steal all the secret tech Nick.

 

[knightpraetor]

so basically counter out of shield is slower than shieldgrab...good to know...no wonder it doesn't break shield pressure usually.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

sounds useful vs falco's fade away shenanegans

 

[Bones0]

If a Falco is fading away, he should be using an early aerial, so counter usually won't work.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

right but when they come back in to reapply pressure.... it would give you time to counter OoS when they otherwise were using the distance to avoid grabs

 

[Bones0]

If they fade away with an aerial and you counter after they've already faded away, they'll have plenty of time to react to a counter before jumping back in. A lot of the time I go for grabs after doing a fade-away anyway. You can try it if you want. It could very well work if they just fsmash after every fade away.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Some people fade away nair/dair and then reappraoch with a late nair/dair.

 

[knightpraetor]

so i havea couple of questions.

what are the advantages/disadvantages of guarding phantasms with shieldbreaker instead of jab?

assuming of course that the opponent has no jump and is falling from above and still has the option to firebird/firefox or phantasm.

i feel like jab's hitbox hits in the proper spot to block for only 3 frames beginning on frame 5, while shieldbreaker hits on the correct spot around frame 6- and will cover low with their fall till frame 10.., so it has a slightly larger window and guards your feet better.

if you start charging firefox right above when they reach the height of the phantasm, they can opt to firefox instead and go over...but this option only really applies to fox, falco can't really get over usually..but i was watching m2k vs shiz and he just uses shieldbreaker and releases if the fox opts to firefox.

I started jabbing at some point instead of shieldbreaking, but i'm not really certain why or if it is really better. i feel like i don't know why m2k chooses one over the other. He used shieldbreaker 3 times and jab just once in that match.

so one frame of speed for weaker coverage of your feet? is that the gist? i feel like getting hit by phantasm should be less likely as well because of the extra frames it hangs.

i'm trying to see the disadvantages that pulled me away from this move but it just seems strictly better if you don't plan to go off

obviously if they have options below the stage like walljump then jab is better..and i guess the other danger is if they sweetspot the phantasm....but i've never seen many people risk that, they'd rather just shorten if they're going to try something like that..and jab won't reach in that situation either unless you are teetering.

 

[odinNJ]

jab comes out faster and is less laggy, shieldbreaker has the weird upwards range. I think it takes like 16 frames to do an uncharged shield breaker. It all depends on physical positioning and the time you have to react.

 

[rustediron]

I made a thread with a question, but either no-one cares/knows, or I asked in the wrong place; so imma repeat it here:

what moves are safe to powershield grab? I know that fast falled falco dair seems to be doable, but I'm not sure about the ones with more momentum (maybe these aren't fast falled?)