Important Carefully Ask PPMD about the Tiara Guy

[Wenbobular]

I don't think powershielding changes shieldgrab timings

 

[Dr Peepee]

so i havea couple of questions.

what are the advantages/disadvantages of guarding phantasms with shieldbreaker instead of jab?

assuming of course that the opponent has no jump and is falling from above and still has the option to firebird/firefox or phantasm.

i feel like jab's hitbox hits in the proper spot to block for only 3 frames beginning on frame 5, while shieldbreaker hits on the correct spot around frame 6- and will cover low with their fall till frame 10.., so it has a slightly larger window and guards your feet better.

if you start charging firefox right above when they reach the height of the phantasm, they can opt to firefox instead and go over...but this option only really applies to fox, falco can't really get over usually..but i was watching m2k vs shiz and he just uses shieldbreaker and releases if the fox opts to firefox.

I started jabbing at some point instead of shieldbreaking, but i'm not really certain why or if it is really better. i feel like i don't know why m2k chooses one over the other. He used shieldbreaker 3 times and jab just once in that match.

so one frame of speed for weaker coverage of your feet? is that the gist? i feel like getting hit by phantasm should be less likely as well because of the extra frames it hangs.

i'm trying to see the disadvantages that pulled me away from this move but it just seems strictly better if you don't plan to go off

obviously if they have options below the stage like walljump then jab is better..and i guess the other danger is if they sweetspot the phantasm....but i've never seen many people risk that, they'd rather just shorten if they're going to try something like that..and jab won't reach in that situation either unless you are teetering.

If SB is only one frame slower.....then yeah I guess that's better lol. The only thing is that SB tends to send people up while jab tends to make spacies drop like rocks which is nice for edgeguards.

I was thinking I'd just release SB and then punish if they start to up-B(it takes so many frames for the up-B to go off....42 for both) unless they couldn't get over it.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Shield Breaker

time to get to charging: 11 frames
Hit (from release of B): 5-10
Max charge time: 121 frames

This means that there are 11 frames before you reach the "charge point" and then 5 more frames after releasing the charge before the hitbox comes out. Tapping B will take 15-16 frames before a hitbox comes out.

 

[Dr Peepee]

I was just going off of what he said.

In that case jab is way faster shame on you kp!!!


nah but if you can get into position and start charging SB before the spacie does anything then that can be good sometimes too I suppose.

 

[Strong Badam]

If SB is only one frame slower.....then yeah I guess that's better lol. The only thing is that SB tends to send people up while jab tends to make spacies drop like rocks which is nice for edgeguards.

I was thinking I'd just release SB and then punish if they start to up-B(it takes so many frames for the up-B to go off....42 for both) unless they couldn't get over it.

I am frame perfect

 

[odinNJ]

Shield Breaker

time to get to charging: 11 frames
Hit (from release of B): 5-10
Max charge time: 121 frames

This means that there are 11 frames before you reach the "charge point" and then 5 more frames after releasing the charge before the hitbox comes out. Tapping B will take 15-16 frames before a hitbox comes out.

I knew it was something like 16 frames. My post was ahead of the game.

 

[rustediron]

I don't think powershielding changes shieldgrab timings

It doesn't, but it boosts the pushback you suffer when someone hits your shield, putting you out of range of the follow up shine on some moves

 

[Strong Badam]

Or out of range for your grab to be relevant, depending on circumstance.

 

[Bones0]

so i havea couple of questions.

what are the advantages/disadvantages of guarding phantasms with shieldbreaker instead of jab?

assuming of course that the opponent has no jump and is falling from above and still has the option to firebird/firefox or phantasm.

i feel like jab's hitbox hits in the proper spot to block for only 3 frames beginning on frame 5, while shieldbreaker hits on the correct spot around frame 6- and will cover low with their fall till frame 10.., so it has a slightly larger window and guards your feet better.

### if you start charging firefox right above when they reach the height of the phantasm, they can opt to firefox instead and go over...but this option only really applies to fox, falco can't really get over usually..but i was watching m2k vs shiz and he just uses shieldbreaker and releases if the fox opts to firefox.

I started jabbing at some point instead of shieldbreaking, but i'm not really certain why or if it is really better. i feel like i don't know why m2k chooses one over the other. He used shieldbreaker 3 times and jab just once in that match.

so one frame of speed for weaker coverage of your feet? is that the gist? i feel like getting hit by phantasm should be less likely as well because of the extra frames it hangs.

i'm trying to see the disadvantages that pulled me away from this move but it just seems strictly better if you don't plan to go off

obviously if they have options below the stage like walljump then jab is better..and i guess the other danger is if they sweetspot the phantasm....but i've never seen many people risk that, they'd rather just shorten if they're going to try something like that..and jab won't reach in that situation either unless you are teetering.

Knockback: Neutral B > Jab
- I often get jabbed and still am able to DI and/or airdodge on stage.
- Side-B is a virtual guarantee that it will hit me off, even at super low %s.

Height: Neutral B > Jab
- Neutral B can cover Phantasms at you as well as the lowest possible Phantasm.
- Jab can be Phantasm'd under fairly consistently.

Speed: Jab > Neutral B
- Jab is really fast, and Neutral B is not, derp.
- What really matters about this is how it affects your timing/reaction. If the Falco is below the ledge and is going to DJ Phantasm and you aren't sure if he will go at you or at the ledge, you can Neutral B to cover both by just using it when he DJs (be ready to jump out and intercept if he up-Bs instead, but you will have to be close). Basically, never try to react to a Phantasm with Neutral B. You should only react to DJs with it when they are too low to Phantasm over it (and Neutral B goes surprisingly high, but it does tend to reverse if you hit them at the top).
- Jab can be used on reaction to the Phantasm, but it won't cover them going for the ledge remember. It is better for when they are above the ledge drifting down either because they used their DJ early in their recovery, because they didn't have it, or if you think they will opt out of DJing in an effort to surprise you and Phantasm through you (this is dumb, but it works when Marth gets lazy/doesn't realize this mixup). So when they are drifting down without a DJ, just stay focused on reacting with a jab. As soon as they dip low enough that they can't hit you, you should go into dtilt (I would literally pre-crouch and just run off if they up-B) mode to cover shortens.


### This predicament is specifically a result of not following the rule for when to Neutral B. If they are still coming down at that height, you should be thinking jab. The spacie will only up-B when he knows that you've already committed to a charged Neutral B (or charged fsmash) because otherwise you can easily jump out and swat him.


In closing, I will just say that if they are low enough to be doing wall jump mixups and aren't high enough to be Phantasming into your face, there is NO reason to be jabbing. As soon as a spacie is too low to go over dtilt, that is the ONLY move you should be using because it has the best range, goes the lowest, and is the only move that beats proper shortens. Some exceptions can be made if you spaced too close to the ledge and are threatened by DJ dair, but even vs. that you can often beat out/trade with dtilt, and that will usually give Marth a huge positional advantage anyway (at low %s, Falco is eager for any type of trade because it's the only way he has a fighting chance when recovering from below). Ftilt is actually quite good at countering wall jump and DJ attack shenanigans, but it will fall prey to air dodges on. I am NOT sure how low ftilt goes, unfortunately. Someone should test that because I'm pretty sure I've gone super low on the ledge and still gotten hit by it. The spacing for where it hits low is really strange, so it is similar to a Neutral B, but I think it may go lower and it also feels faster. The only drawback would be situations where Neutral B can be charged to cover low Up-Bs, but I never liked that as a way of option coverage anyway.

I made a thread with a question, but either no-one cares/knows, or I asked in the wrong place; so imma repeat it here:

what moves are safe to powershield grab? I know that fast falled falco dair seems to be doable, but I'm not sure about the ones with more momentum (maybe these aren't fast falled?)

Power shield grab does NOT let you grab sooner. It does, however, have the benefit of making you slide really far. If you are playing Falco and he does not go deep on your shield with an aerial (i.e. the aerial barely reaches you), you can quite often PS it so that you slide back and avoid the shine. Often times, just shield DIing alone without the powershield will make his shine miss. Falco's shine hitbox is very short on the front (you basically have to be touching his beak). I will say to be cautious because Falco players will almost always jab (b/c it has more range than shine) when they realize they screwed up the spacing on their aerial. If that's the case, you can still shield grab after their jab, but then you ALSO have to watch for double jab mixups after the aerials. A third thing Falco players will do is spot dodge immediately after poorly spaced aerials, especially vs. Marth and other grab-happy characters. So just keep all of these mixups in mind, and you should be able to catch onto their habits in this situation fairly quickly because most Falco players do not have a plan for this situation, but rather a panicky knee-jerk reaction that they do over and over. Last thing to keep in mind is your shield size. Don't rely too much on this kind of stuff because a low nair can pretty easily shield poke your toes if you've already lost some of your shield. I would recommend not trying any of this at all vs. Fox because his shine just has so much more range, and his greater speed makes it easier for him to go deep on your shield in general.

 

[Bones0]

Or out of range for your grab to be relevant, depending on circumstance.

Out of Marth's grab range?

I've never heard of this mythical spacing.

But in all serious, Strong Bad is right when you're not talking about an approaching aerial. If you somehow end up PSing and/or shield DIing away on an aerial where Falco is just going straight up or maybe even fading away a little/lot, your grab will definitely miss. If you pay attention to the spacing, you can quickly react with a fair OoS or WD OoS (towards them) grab.

 

[Beat!]

I was thinking I'd just release SB and then punish if they start to up-B(it takes so many frames for the up-B to go off....42 for both) unless they couldn't get over it.

Release Strong Bad? Do you have him locked up in a cage?

That's messed up, man.



On topic:
I like neutral b if they're further away. It feels like it doesn't cover enough options if they're too close to the ledge. Dunno if that makes sense lol.

 

[Strong Badam]

When he says release me, it's actually quite sexual

And I don't like it

 

[Niko45]

Yea neutral B I agree is great when they are further away because you hit with raw KOing power where an fsmash or something will give them another opportunity to recover.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eZcrJtLeVFU#t=9m16s

best example I can think of atm

 

[knightpraetor]

well, i don't think the charging time is relevant. a marth should know whether he has time to begin the charge of shield breaker, so only release time really matters..but yeah if you have time it seems pretty good...though in mid percents they may DI up and then react so I would probably only use it at super high or super low percents. (stupid 0 % DI jab up and in and fall on stage...and smash DI)..at mid percents jabs finishing capability is too strong.

 

[Bones0]

Tipping the jab actually helps a lot.

 

[Beat!]

Yea neutral B I agree is great when they are further away because you hit with raw KOing power where an fsmash or something will give them another opportunity to recover.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eZcrJtLeVFU#t=9m16s

best example I can think of atm

Yeah, that's a really good example.

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

More benefit of shield breaker. It lasts 6 frames for a hitbox compared to 4 frames like ftilt, fsmash, and jab. And its only 32 frame IASA from release making it faster than ftilt on the end.

 

[odinNJ]

I'd think that tipping the jab wouldn't work as well because the jab is useful because before fox/falco know it they are below the stage. I you tipped it there would be more obvious knock back. But what do I know about marth

 

[knightpraetor]

i try for that..but i have yet to see any marth that has a 100% consistency on that...i could point out several videos from m2k at his prime too..so i don't really think that is a risk worth taking

 

[rustediron]

Power shield grab does NOT let you grab sooner. It does, however, have the benefit of making you slide really far. If you are playing Falco and he does not go deep on your shield with an aerial (i.e. the aerial barely reaches you), you can quite often PS it so that you slide back and avoid the shine. Often times, just shield DIing alone without the powershield will make his shine miss. Falco's shine hitbox is very short on the front (you basically have to be touching his beak). I will say to be cautious because Falco players will almost always jab (b/c it has more range than shine) when they realize they screwed up the spacing on their aerial. If that's the case, you can still shield grab after their jab, but then you ALSO have to watch for double jab mixups after the aerials. A third thing Falco players will do is spot dodge immediately after poorly spaced aerials, especially vs. Marth and other grab-happy characters. So just keep all of these mixups in mind, and you should be able to catch onto their habits in this situation fairly quickly because most Falco players do not have a plan for this situation, but rather a panicky knee-jerk reaction that they do over and over. Last thing to keep in mind is your shield size. Don't rely too much on this kind of stuff because a low nair can pretty easily shield poke your toes if you've already lost some of your shield. I would recommend not trying any of this at all vs. Fox because his shine just has so much more range, and his greater speed makes it easier for him to go deep on your shield in general.

Thanks! That's really helpful, I'll experiment with it some in the way you mentioned

 

[AceDudeyeah]

Would shield DI enable you to grab a Falco/Foxes dash attack?
Obviously not if they were to do it waay overextended so they would end up far behind, but at least increase the range of X over which you can grab the dash attack, with X being the distance from Marth that the dash attack was started.

 

[Bones0]

You just answered your own question.

 

[knightpraetor]

So I noticed sveet said a few pages back that marth's Up+B out of shield has the same data as falco's shine out of shield..

I can't believe it...but maybe i'm wrong...

according to the frame data it's five frame startup so 5 frames to get airborne + 5 frames to start up = 10 frames.

I don't believe that up moves negate the requirement to actually be airborne to cancel the shield and start the move

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

you don't have to leave the ground to start an upb. You can cancel the jumpsquat just like usmash/grab

 

[Strong Badam]

upb oos is frame 6 if done best
same as falco shine (5 frames jumpsquat + frame 1 shine)

 

[knightpraetor]

that's crazy...i should test if it will still tip when reversed on a person who does it overlapping you (those positions where wd out is too risky till after the shine) cause if it does i will start using it again. as it is I only use it at kill percents when falco misspaces.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

As long as falco is in front of your shield, you will strong hit. Maybe once in a while when falco is really deep on your shield it might weak hit, but i cant recall it ever happening.

 

[Bones0]

It definitely will NOT tip if they are close to you.

 

[KirbyKaze]

You get that weird launch hit.

 

[knightpraetor]

hmm, ok, so another couple simple questions..

can dtilt be canceled into jump or say neutral B? i think it can be canceled into jump but i always miss my JC grab out of that, so i used tap forward then grab instead.

 

[Bones0]

I'm assuming you're talking about IASA, in which case yes. You can jump, walk, dash, and do A attacks. You can't do technically do B attacks, but up-B starts with jump, forward B starts with a walk, and you can JC into a grounded counter. Not sure about any other actions that cancel IASA. You should be able to just buffer a walk by holding the stick, and then grab as soon as you start moving.

 

[Anand]

I'm assuming you're talking about IASA, in which case yes. You can jump, walk, dash, and do A attacks. You can't do technically do B attacks, but up-B starts with jump, forward B starts with a walk, and you can JC into a grounded counter. Not sure about any other actions that cancel IASA. You should be able to just buffer a walk by holding the stick, and then grab as soon as you start moving.

Just walk into counter... it's easier and faster.

 

[Bones0]

Yeah, that works too.

 

[Tee ay eye]

my performance has been incredibly lackluster recently

i think it's partially because i never play marth in friendlies anymore. i mess up a bunch of stuff now that i used to be able to do flawlessly, my movement is a lot choppier, and my ability to see and manipulate small things has gotten a lot worse. sure, i've learned some things along the way, but i think my marth has actually gotten worse in some ways in the past few months.

i'm going to dedicate the time between now and the next two tourneys to playing marth almost exclusively (with secondaries sprinkled in for variety, of course)

if that doesn't help, then i'm gonna cop out to fox LOL

 

[Divinokage]

Odd that this happens. When I play my secondaries my Ganon gets a lot better all the time and of course I use him in friendlies as well just to be sure I don't lose out of any skills. My technical this past year increased with all characters just by doing that. I guess it's a matter of knowing yourself and knowing how to train yourself to get the best results. For me it worked out really well, for others it may not be the best choice.. you just have to feel it out.

 

[Bones0]

You should get rid of your other secondaries and just play Marth/Fox 99% of time (1% for screwing around vs. bad players). I should do this myself, but my Marth/Fox are about tied for my 2nd best, plus only playing 2 different matchups ever gets old fast. :|

@Kage
When you play secondaries, do you consciously focus on how your strategies could be transferred to Ganon, or do you just feel like you play him different after you've been playing different characters and exposing yourself to fresh strats?

 

[Tee ay eye]

Odd that this happens. When I play my secondaries my Ganon gets a lot better all the time and of course I use him in friendlies as well just to be sure I don't lose out of any skills. My technical this past year increased with all characters just by doing that. I guess it's a matter of knowing yourself and knowing how to train yourself to get the best results. For me it worked out really well, for others it may not be the best choice.. you just have to feel it out.

I've gotten a LOOOOOOTTTTT from my secondaries. I was a Fox main from 08 to late 09, and I still keep up with Fox, Falco, and Falcon (I think I could make any of them better than my Marth given a month), so I am and always have been a super technical player because of it, but the fact of the matter is that I can only get so much from playing my other characters while still trying to use Marth in tourney. Even though playing other characters help my Marth, I still don't play Marth nearly as much as I should.

You should get rid of your other secondaries and just play Marth/Fox 99% of time (1% for screwing around vs. bad players). I should do this myself, but my Marth/Fox are about tied for my 2nd best, plus only playing 2 different matchups ever gets old fast. :|

I'm gonna try to play Marth 95% of the time, with the other 5% being my other characters (Fox, Falco, Falcon, maybe Sheik, Mario, and Samus), and I'll try to do that only when I've been playing Marth for so long that I'm not doing anything but building bad habits.

I refuse to co-main because there is not a single stage or match-up that a Fox player would need a pocket Marth for, so if I were to use Fox, it would be as a purist main and not as a secondary.

tl;dr:

Expect good(ish) things from me

or Fox

 

[Divinokage]

Ya Marth does require more precision than any other character so I can see why your execution needs to be top notch, that's the big disadvantage for Marth. Just like Ganon, you aren't really allowed to whiff any moves though it's kinda different.

Bones, actually I focus on character specific strats for the character I'm using while I'm playing but at the same time I also think of how those specifics can transfer to Ganon. Like using my Falcon for example can help me with better movement overall since you have to be quite tight with him in order to be able to hit your opponent or to avoid hits.. so then if I'm using Ganon now my wavelands and DDs are much more smooth than before because of it, and it enables me to do more complicated setups. You might as well do everything you can on the spot to increase all the levels possible in melee. You just need a clear goal of what you want to do for the future.

 

[Tee ay eye]

Ya Marth does require more precision than any other character so I can see why your execution needs to be top notch, that's the big disadvantage for Marth. Just like Ganon, you aren't really allowed to whiff any moves though it's kinda different.

Yeah, dude, I want to start putting more effort into Marth again so I can master all the little things with him.

Kinda like Armada. When you watch his Peach, you can tell he's put SOOOO much time into her to learn every single thing about her. I'm aiming to do something like that.

Except I won't be as good quite yet....

 

[Beat!]

You can do it Tai!