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[Bones0]

Thought that said Tail. >_>

 

[Niko45]

I try to embrace the ridiculous situational-ness of Marth's gameplay and degree of difficulty in playing that precisely constantly instead of getting frustrated by it nowadays. But I also don't feel like I'm taking the game as seriously anymore otherwise I'd just be constantly pissed off or switching to spacies.

 

[Divinokage]

You kinda have to have fun if you want to improve with 100% of your capabilities.. if you get frustrated then you won't be able to think straight and will just focus on your frustration.. unless you use this as a channel to burn away bad habits, this also requires training to do. =P

 

[JesiahTEG]

Personally I think counter OOS is just too slow, the few times I tried it I got punished for it anyway.

I usually resort to roll/WD oos

Actually dude, and take this for what you will, I think it's amazing. Gotta be really tricky with it and have a good grasp on your opponent mentally, but I love it. If you get good with it (which I'm trying to lol) it can change the whole flow of the match by forcing your opponent to think twice about doing whatever they normally do whenever you shield.

TAI- IT's so weird how you're soo good but still like, not at the top level yet lol. Idk what I'm trying to say, but you're a beast.

Kage- I think you/Armada have the best smash mindset. (competitor mindset actually) How's MMA going?

 

[Smooth Criminal]

It still seems pretty gimmicky.

I could see somebody actually conditioning you into doing that and doing something as simple as a boosted grab in response.

I think it's better for Marth to poke or get away OoS. That's what a lot of good Marths do to me. Still, it is a neat trick.

Smooth Criminal

 

[Divinokage]

Well look at this situation if you are already in shield and the opponent does some sort of shield pressure and then runs away, will you really do counter OOS? That option seems to only work as a guess that the opponent will run back in.. it's already much better to just use Marth's range as a counter-attack to keep the opponent out because it leads to actual setups.

Jesse, good, I'm slowly getting stronger. =P

 

[JesiahTEG]

i know you're gonna beast it man.

Um, i see what you're saying btw.

"if you are already in shield and the opponent does some sort of shield pressure and then runs away, will you really do counter OOS"

Ok, fair enough, I understand that point. But, that sentence is assuming that you don't have a good grasp mentally on your opponent. If you do have a better mental grasp on your opponent, risky things become less risky, and more useful. IMO that's when true brilliance and creativity shine.

I guess it just has to be tested at the highest levels of play.,

 

[Teczer0]

Actually dude, and take this for what you will, I think it's amazing. Gotta be really tricky with it and have a good grasp on your opponent mentally, but I love it. If you get good with it (which I'm trying to lol) it can change the whole flow of the match by forcing your opponent to think twice about doing whatever they normally do whenever you shield.

TAI- IT's so weird how you're soo good but still like, not at the top level yet lol. Idk what I'm trying to say, but you're a beast.

Kage- I think you/Armada have the best smash mindset. (competitor mindset actually) How's MMA going?

I can see the idea behind it, and if it works for you don't get rid of it from you play.

Do you use it vs both spacies? I could see it being more effective vs falco since Fox is so fast he could probably spam grab better than falco can.

 

[Tee ay eye]

its a lot better vs falco imo because fox is more about running around, hits/misses, and finding openings, whereas falco is more about being ********

 

[Beat!]

Every time I play around with Counter OOS it just feels like a high risk-low/med reward option. Like, it seems good in theory but idk...

And yeah, definitely better vs Falco than vs Fox.

 

[Divinokage]

Ya that's my point, it's like alright you counter him center stage.. then what? Do you have time to jab reset or to go for a techchase grab maybe?

 

[Teczer0]

Thats what kinda deters me yea.

I'd rather do a low risk/low reward most of the time in WD OOS. I would think most spacies well that are worth worrying about would try to get away from you if you're both at the edge anyway.

 

[Niko45]

if you wd oos a lot its really easy for a falco to dair shine SHL or just dair and skip shine and run to your WD spot and dair again

not bad having mixups

 

[Teczer0]

Well, I don't only use WD oos I probably use it more predominantly though.

I use WD oos and aerials (fair/nair) more or less.

Maybe thats why I prefer using sheik against Falco over Marth, her shield game vs Falco feels much more lenient.

 

[Beat!]

Eh, I guess it works as a mixup, but if Falco's on top of you and you're looking for a mixup I think I'd rather just up-B OOS. It's pretty high risk as well, but it's faster and will actually kill them sometimes, or at least send them off stage.

 

[huMps]

Just gives Falco one more thing to worry about when he's getting all up in your ****. Most the time when I counter out of shield I'm hoping to catch a laser though. The only time I can think of up-B ing OOS vs falco is after he shines?

 

[Bones0]

Like I said earlier, I think counter OoS is all about beating late aerials. Unless a spacie fades away an early aerial, they HAVE to late aerial. If they jump and don't look like they're going out of your grab range, then you can counter and they are virtually guaranteed to hit you. It's stupidly hard to react in time as a spacie to realize "oh, he countered" and not aerial.

Someone should see how WD OoS into counter works. It could be perfect at dealing with spacies' formulaic followups when you sort of have to do a predictable WD OoS (like as Falco, I almost always RSHL out of shine when I'm on their back because everything else will poke their shield or thrash it 'til they get hit).

Also WD OoS into powershield could be sick. It can be made even easier by the fact that Falco will usually high laser out of shine in an effort to get it out before WD OoS fsmash hits. That means you can stay crouching after the WD to make the PS a lot easier.

 

[knightpraetor]

counter out of shield is only good if they are facing off stage near the ledge. that's what i've concluded. every other situation i found better options at all percents

 

[MT_]

If you know falco is going to do a late aerial after shine, you should just shield grab after the shine. I really think counter OOS is only any good if they are pressuring the back of your shield where you can't shield grab them; shield grab is faster, more rewarding, and less risk than counter OOS if they are on your front. It's also better than up-B out of shield in all respects for the same reasons (not actually sure about the speed but I think they are almost identical in speed?) until they are in killing percent.

I feel like people in general need to learn when falco/fox can be shield grabbed because most spacey mains do not do genuinely safe pressure. Safe pressure (at least for falco) can't even last linger than a late aerial->shine->fade away early aerial. Everything else is just mixups (that are admittedly in fox's/ favor).

Shield grabbing is really good. Seriously.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

You know what really sucks? When falco does late nair/dair shine, then does another late aerial on your shield, but when you grab his hurtbox is above your grab hitbox and then he just combos you.

 

[MT_]

You know what really sucks? When falco does late nair/dair shine, then does another late aerial on your shield, but when you grab his hurtbox is above your grab hitbox and then he just combos you.

Yeah =/ I don't think it's possible to react to a late aerial since we as human beings I guess react to actual occurrences than the lack thereof (hence why tomahawk shenanigans work... ever). But grab comes out fast enough that you can grab him before he can jump above the grab hitbox after the shine; hence why I prefaced with "if you know falco is going to late aerial after shine". It's definitely something you can't do on reaction unfortunately; though I don't think there are any options that you can do on reaction to late aerials after shine.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Oh is that how it works? I just wasn't grabbing early enough! I always wondered why it happened to my marth but I couldn't make it happen from the other side of the matchup. Thanks!

 

[Bones0]

I don't think it's worth shield grabbing against spacies that actually know how to pressure. I pretty much never get grabbed anymore because I only do late aerials after shines ~1/8th of the time. I am much more often doing early fade aways, shine grabs, and doubleshines.

 

[MT_]

Oh is that how it works? I just wasn't grabbing early enough! I always wondered why it happened to my marth but I couldn't make it happen from the other side of the matchup. Thanks!

Fun sarcasm.

I don't think it's worth shield grabbing against spacies that actually know how to pressure. I pretty much never get grabbed anymore because I only do late aerials after shines ~1/8th of the time. I am much more often doing early fade aways, shine grabs, and doubleshines.

Yeah I agree with you. Late aerials used sparingly are very difficult to punish because... well, you risk getting hit by other things if you aim to punish a late aerial. I guess what I am saying is that a lot of the punishment options we're talking about in spacey pressure is inferior to grab in a lot of aspects and situations imo. Grab is faster than almost all of marth's other options and I feel like people forget that.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

I wasn't being sarcastic

 

[MT_]

Damn internet and shady use of exclamation marks lol. My bad.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Im just trying to brighten up everyone's monday!!!!!

 

[Bones0]

It's faster, but won't hit someone at the peak of their SH, won't hit someone crossing you up, won't hit someone already behind you, won't out-prioritize aerials (like counter and sometimes up-B). The way I think of it, shield pressure has gotten to the point where it's no longer about speed really, it's about options. Whether grab or counter OoS is faster is irrelevant because what matters is that they are both fast enough to work.

 

[Niko45]

yea all marth's options are in the same speed range as far as significance goes. Like up B oos is slightly faster than grab but it's not faster to the point that it beats things that grab doesn't so they are essentially the power vs damage build option used for the same punishing situation.

Also, no one seems to be mentioning roll. Roll is **** for flipping momentum and getting pressure/cornering if you can get away with it. Which, after a lot of conditioning has taken place you definitely can. Also, if they are shine grabbing you a lot.

 

[Strong Badam]

Like up B oos is slightly faster than grab but it's not faster to the point that it beats things that grab doesn't so they are essentially the power vs damage build option used for the same punishing situation.

this is a really important point.

 

[JesiahTEG]

Tec0- I'm not really sure. In fact, I haven't even tested it vs really good players so I guess I'm more theorizing than anything. Works on my roommates most of the time though

But I think it's definitely underexplored at high levels of play. Counter in general actually, but specifically OOS

 

[Niko45]

I find I use counter oos quite frankly when I'm not playing that well/don't have a good feel for what kind of shield pressure they're doing and it's just a generally ok thing to throw out there that covers a few types of pressure for free. I don't really feel it has any unique coverage or superiority to other options if you can execute them well.

 

[Shroomed]

Marth vs Sheik is so hard. How do I approach from the ground? I lost to Lucien 3-2 in Winner's Finals with Marth because I got dash attacked 907518327958371 times for jumping a lot (went under every aerial in the world cuz he timed at pretty perfectly).


Is run -> dtilt the best option?

 

[.Chipmunk.]

Marth vs Sheik is so hard. How do I approach from the ground? I lost to Lucien 3-2 in Winner's Finals with Marth because I got dash attacked 907518327958371 times for jumping a lot (went under every aerial in the world cuz he timed at pretty perfectly).


Is run -> dtilt the best option?

I try to fight sheik the same way I fight marth. I think the MU is fairly similar personally, but I'm not that good at either

 

[MasterShake]

I've found myself that counterpicking a warmed-up best in the world dr. mario can work. Try that.

 

[Bones0]

this is a really important point.

I made that point. Niko is just copying me.

 

[Dr Peepee]

Marth vs Sheik is so hard. How do I approach from the ground? I lost to Lucien 3-2 in Winner's Finals with Marth because I got dash attacked 907518327958371 times for jumping a lot (went under every aerial in the world cuz he timed at pretty perfectly).


Is run -> dtilt the best option?

Stay grounded more as much as possible, WD/DD mixup just outside of Sheik's Ftilt range, Dtilt is amazing but running with it can be telegraphed pretty easily, never ever never never Nair unless you are 102% sure they won't CC and it will connect, Fair selectively but also pretty spaced because of dash attack.

 

[MT_]

Marth vs Sheik is so hard. How do I approach from the ground? I lost to Lucien 3-2 in Winner's Finals with Marth because I got dash attacked 907518327958371 times for jumping a lot (went under every aerial in the world cuz he timed at pretty perfectly).


Is run -> dtilt the best option?

If you find that Sheik is too close to properly approach with run -> dtilt, keep in mind that run -> wavedash in place -> dtilt works to shorten your approach so you can space an approach better when the distance between the two of you isn't big enough for a full on run.


But yeah Sheik is hard. I oftentimes find myself thinking that I figured the matchup out and that it can be a 50/50 matchup with solid play, but then I get reminded that it's truly hard for Marth when I get ***** by the same Sheik I thought I was doing well against lol.

 

[Niko45]

nair kinda ***** sheik as long as she doesn't call it with an ftilt. pressure her into a shield/sidestep and overshoot it

WD dtilt is a better approach than running because its a little less telegraphed, tho if they are spacing fairs amsah style you are still gonna get your **** pushed in

dash attack and WD/run up grab are honestly great against her just gotta grow balls and go get her

stay grounded stay grounded stay grounded

do nothing do nothing do nothing

 

[Beat!]

stay grounded stay grounded stay grounded

do nothing do nothing do nothing

Quoted for emphasis.

Also,if you're ever able to steal her double jump you need to capitalize big time. By that I mean she has to DIE, or at least take massive amounts of damage. Don't let her come back down.