Important Carefully Ask PPMD about the Tiara Guy

[Divinokage]

You haven't watched enough Mango vs. Kage.

He got lucky.

 

[Bones0]

A warrior knows no johns.

 

[Lucykinz]

I hate to sound like an idiot but I recently started playing as Marth. Reading through this q&a you mentioned some things about a wavedash. What is that?

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

when you airdodge into the ground, you keep some of your momentum. Wavedashing is a movement technique that uses jumping and then immediately airdodging into the ground at an angle to slide.

Check out this video series for more cool techniques like that

 

[Construct]

Marth has a very useful wavedash, and it's the fourth longest in the game.

God mango's marth is so sexy

 

[Bones0]

I hate to sound like an idiot but I recently started playing as Marth. Reading through this q&a you mentioned some things about a wavedash. What is that?

If you're new, you should hit up the Pittsburgh scene (from what I can tell it's quite active!) and attend your (presumably) first local. Melee community is legit and will be glad to help you with the super basics. In the mean time though, I highly recommend studying the Advanced How to Play on YouTube. It will cover a lot of the basic terms players use such as Wavedashing (WDing), Dash dancing (DDing), Short hopping (SHing), Fast falling (FFing), L-canceling (all together you get SHFFLing), and much more.

Melee is not just a hobby, but a journey of passion not unlike Ash Ketchum as he set out on his quest to become the best Pokemon trainer. Some people end up finding other pathways towards different professions. Maybe you will become the next great Pokemon Breeder (local coach of infinite wisdom), Gym Leader (low-tier specialist), or even the Pokemon League Champion (the BEST). Sure you may hit some snags along the way. You may make a bad trade here or there and regret your decisions. But whatever it may be, enjoy the journey for that is what truly makes it all worthwhile. :D

 

[.Ðempt]

Pittsburgh has an amazing scene. If I had to pick one around here, it's them.

 

[.Chipmunk.]

Melee is not just a hobby, but a journey of passion not unlike Ash Ketchum as he set out on his quest to become the best Pokemon trainer. Some people end up finding other pathways towards different professions. Maybe you will become the next great Pokemon Breeder (local coach of infinite wisdom), Gym Leader (low-tier specialist), or even the Pokemon League Champion (the BEST). Sure you may hit some snags along the way. You may make a bad trade here or there and regret your decisions. But whatever it may be, enjoy the journey for that is what truly makes it all worthwhile. :D

Bones for President. That was beautiful. :D

 

[Fregadero]

Bones for dude who has given me more useful spacie matchup info. than anyone else. Go Marth boards.

Serious question (discussion starter?). I've been having a lot of issues against spacies when I loose stage control. Between that and the lasers Falco is probably my worst match up. Admittedly I need to work on incorporating wd oos a lot more, but I was wondering if you guys had any good tips/tricks beyond the normal wd out, return to neutral.

 

[Dr Peepee]

Don't always put up your shield. You lose a ton of options that way. Try to crouch and powershield if you're stuck by the edge and move into Falco from there. If Falco is walling you with Bairs, then hit him after he Bairs or shield the Bair and WD OOS back so you have a little more stage. If he's going to attack, then you could hit him first/take stage if he's waiting or just swing at him and outrange him if he is attacking right away/you call or bait that attack.

Try to avoid excessive DD'ing here because you don't have much extra space to work with and you need to be very conscious of your opponent's actions.

 

[Bones0]

Taj seems to like utitlizing a lot of WDing in place onto platforms to deal with lasers. You just jump straight up, waveland down, then comes straight back through with a fair. To stay unpredictable, you can keep your options open by SHing first, then DJ WLing after you see what they do. Just watch Taj at Genesis, really. He has the best laser game of any Marth I've seen by far.

 

[Niko45]

The more I play the more I think Falco dumps on Marth lol. Guy doesn't even need lasers, just zone with bair and ftilt!

 

[Dr Peepee]

Ftilt isn't even that great vs Marth imo.

CC/shield grab too good.

edit: not to mention regular range advantage over it.

 

[knightpraetor]

i think he means when marth is coming down pp and then hitting through the fair before the fair can get lower...

but marth can just start the fair early anticipating the ftilt and then the hibox will be in the lower diagonal in time.


pressuring with bair and uptilt is pretty good against marth in shield...but i dunno about walling with bairs on teh ground..it's definitely worthwhile for falco when marth is at high percent..but other than that i haven't been much impressed

 

[Niko45]

Spaced ftilt on shield is unpunishable for Marth. Falco can actually play like Marth....against Marth.

I'm also still searching for a concrete way for Marth to get off the ledge against laser ftilt.

I honestly think not many (if any) people have really explored how painfully miserably gay Falco can be played (historically all the good falcos have been super aggro players besides PP who I'd put somewhere around neutral). His offensive tools are just fun and really good as well but there is a very dark dark side to Falco imo.

 

[KirbyKaze]

I know you can't shield grab it, but can you fair it OOS? Serious question, legitimately curious.

 

[Niko45]

You can't. I thought you could. But last night I learned you can't (mostly why I bring this up).

 

[Aber]

Spaced ftilt on shield is unpunishable for Marth. Falco can actually play like Marth....against Marth.

I'm also still searching for a concrete way for Marth to get off the ledge against laser ftilt.

I honestly think not many (if any) people have really explored how painfully miserably gay Falco can be played (historically all the good falcos have been super aggro players besides PP who I'd put somewhere around neutral). His offensive tools are just fun and really good as well but there is a very dark dark side to Falco imo.

Yes to all

 

[OverLord]

Niko you have to play Aldwyn, then you'll really understand how gay Falco can be played.

 

[Beat!]

Pretty surw you can wd oos vs ftilt,tjo.

Im deunk tho so migyt be wrong.

 

[Dr Peepee]

Spaced ftilt on shield is unpunishable for Marth. Falco can actually play like Marth....against Marth.

I'm also still searching for a concrete way for Marth to get off the ledge against laser ftilt.

I honestly think not many (if any) people have really explored how painfully miserably gay Falco can be played (historically all the good falcos have been super aggro players besides PP who I'd put somewhere around neutral). His offensive tools are just fun and really good as well but there is a very dark dark side to Falco imo.

Have you tried shield DI?

I'd try shield grabbing to see if I could catch the leg(random BS Marth grabs happen quite often for me if I want them to) and hold down+mash shield grab anyway to CC grab anyway if it didn't work.

Do you have a video example(or a very good description) of the spacing Falco is at and how he's shooting the lasers? If I knew those two things I could probably give you an idea on what to do. It's certainly a good tactic but beatable. For example, if Falco is waiting until you go above the edge to shoot, then you can trick him into thinking you're going onstage, shooting, and then out of your regrab you should be able to make it on stage with a DJ before Falco can reposition himself/get an Ftilt out safely(if he tried to Ftilt in this situation he'd risk getting Fair'd assuming slightly below full range spacing iirc).

I've often hoped people would show how lame Falco could be played but most people just don't seem to do it. I'm personally quite curious about the whole idea still.

 

[odinNJ]

Ledge hop counter the laser and see if you can catch him with it?

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Falco's ftilt is -14 in shield. I think you can do SH fair in that time frame.

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

So does anyone know what causes moves to clank? How does the game prioritize clanking versus actually hitting the person?

Falco faces me and I face him. A fsmash is attempted and it clanks with his Utilt. He never turned around. So a jab is now attempted, same thing occurs. A ftilt is attempted next. Same result. A bit baffled why Ftilt and Jab which hit lower first end up clanking with Falco's Utilt when it goes behind him and above his head. Jab and Ftilt should have at least hit Falco and not the hitbox.

Also, Ftilt is just as annoying with all that clanking.

 

[Strong Badam]

It's a case where you're hitting his hitbox AND his hurtbox on the same frame. The game doesn't realize "Oh, more of the hitbox is colliding with the hurtbox than Falco's utilt hitbox, it should win"

 

[knightpraetor]

sveet knows where it's at. I've got to see this...but maybe you are just trying for guaranteed punishes when you don't need to...just use those extra frames if they do it on your shield to reach a spacing you can pressure them...and if they aren't doing it on your shield...then i'm not exactly sure what you're worried about...you can outspace ftilt on the ground and it's the laggiest thing ever

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Grounded moves are the only ones that clank*. Clanking happens when the two moves will deal similar amounts of damage (i think it is 8%, but I didn't check). So your fsmash and his utilt hitboxes collided and clanked because they were in this range. Same with the other moves. The reverse utilt was just funny coincidence.



Certain projectiles and projectile like moves clank even though they are airborne

 

[Niko45]

Falco's ftilt is -14 in shield. I think you can do SH fair in that time frame.

It is actually outranged, unless you delay the fair a little in which case you lose the frame adv.

@PP - I wish I did. Should have streamed the other night it happened a million times. I don't think shield DI would help because despite sucking at consciously shield DIing I'm typically holding in during shield. I'll do more testing to be sure I'm right.

 

[Dr Peepee]

Alright just post it in here when you do stream again I'll most definitely look for it.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Oh damn its outranged? Hmm in my head I don't see how thats possible, but if you say it happens i believe you. Personally, as marth, I would simply drop my shield. Falco has nothing else going on at that range and guard drop only puts marth at -2 total.

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

It never seems worth it to shield against Falco except against a falco who makes many mistakes.

What are people's preference for aerials at higher percents? At that point, Uair/Fair no longer really combo. Fair risks getting tipped and not pushing them offstage. Uair simply hits them above the stage higher. Bair/Nair and Neutral B seem to give relatively the same knockback and angle.

 

[Dr Peepee]

Shielding as Marth against Falco is usually better served as a bait or when done at a range he isn't trying to get you into(he wants to grab but you stayed away, or he wants to aerial and you run in).

Not sure how to respond to that other question because I don't know if that's when ending a combo or juggling or neutral position or what.

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

I didn't mean from a neutral position. In neutral, I'm more concerned about getting any hit in to break that neutral position and get some advantage.

Yea, I was referring to ending a combo or simply a juggle. Marth can end a combo with Uair, but that only seems to reset the position. And continuously using it doesn't get where until 200% when it finally kills. As I said before, Nair/Bair/Neutral B (uncharged) and Fair all seem to have pretty much the same knockback and trajectory between (tipped and untipped).

I suppose I prefer neutral B since it lasts the longest and has the largest range out of all his aerials that knockback horizontally.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

neutral b probably needs to be used more to end combos, though the knockback is pretty weak.

 

[Dr Peepee]

Bair is my favorite of those if I get to pick.

I don't know if it's the strongest move, but the angle it sends the opponent at when tippered and it's solid strength feel the best to me.

I'll take what I can get usually though.

Neutral B is nice too but I don't like it as much unless I'm farther offstage because it catches people trying to DI away and it kills them.

 

[JPOBS]

Then why should it be used more sveet? if its weak i mean

I've been considering finishing aerial combo's with Up -B like they do in PAL but i have no clue how to hit the sweetspot on airborn prey. I miss every damn time lol
any graphic/gif on where to hit with it for maxium effect?

 

[Niko45]

Bair da bess

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Then why should it be used more sveet? if its weak i mean

I've been considering finishing aerial combo's with Up -B like they do in PAL but i have no clue how to hit the sweetspot on airborn prey. I miss every damn time lol
any graphic/gif on where to hit with it for maxium effect?

Well, fair can just be DIed up, and up [A]SDI escapes nair so really that only leaves neutral b. Bair is probably the best of them, but obviously you have to be backwards. If someone could get good at finishing with reverse bair, that'd be cool to see

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

I'm always surprised how often I'm waiting in the air for the opponent to either come in range for my next aerial to hit, or simply waiting for them to do something. During that hang time, I can be getting shield breaker charged and have maybe about as much knock back as Bair.

I never thought of this, but isn't non-tipped shield breaker and tipped pretty similar in knockback?

 

[JPOBS]

Well, fair can just be DIed up, and up [A]SDI escapes nair so really that only leaves neutral b. Bair is probably the best of them, but obviously you have to be backwards. If someone could get good at finishing with reverse bair, that'd be cool to see

Good response. I don't play marth enough. these things seem pretty intuitive in retrospect.