Important Carefully Ask PPMD about the Tiara Guy

[ArcNatural]

Don't always put up your shield. You lose a ton of options that way. Try to crouch and powershield if you're stuck by the edge and move into Falco from there. If Falco is walling you with Bairs, then hit him after he Bairs or shield the Bair and WD OOS back so you have a little more stage. If he's going to attack, then you could hit him first/take stage if he's waiting or just swing at him and outrange him if he is attacking right away/you call or bait that attack.

Try to avoid excessive DD'ing here because you don't have much extra space to work with and you need to be very conscious of your opponent's actions.

Thanks for this. As Falco is my worst matchup and I have gone back to maining Marth, I found I was able to get way better openings by not worrying about moving around so much and more focused on openings provided by Falco.

I watched Taj as well and was trying out his use of straight jump wavedashing onto platforms to deal with lasers and it was pretty useful. I thought his better addition was his stationary nair/fair game. I realized after watching his games vs DRPP and Mango that I almost never just standing nair/fair approaches in the manner he did.

My main issues atm Marth VS Falco is dealing with Falco's laser -> shine or grab where he lasers into you and can start shield pressure immediately or just grab you. I feel like in the situation where you get caught it's hard to get out of. I repeatedly get shined trying to roll or wavedash oos after the laser.

It's just such a difficult position to be in as Marth if you don't PS the laser. You can't really pre-emptively roll as if you roll back the laser will still hit you and if you roll behind they can simply react with dash attack/bair when the shl ends.

Staying in shield just leads to a 50/50 mixup where they will either grab you or you may be able to do something out of shield pressure.

 

[Dr Peepee]

Stationary Nairs/Fairs? Hmm I need to watch that again that's an odd idea.

If Falco lasers into you and forces you to shield, then it kind of depends on the spacing for me to want to try something or not. I assume you mean he's pretty close, so SDI'ing the laser backwards and then maybe Nair'ing/Ftilt'ing or something similar could be pretty effective, considering you get considerable space and have a move out that will beat Falco even if he gets a little closer after the laser(which he usually does).

If you're already in shield, then retreating Fair OOS or Nair OOS maybe. I decided that losing stage vs Falco isn't all that bad since powershielding allows you to take it back in a hurry and if he doesn't laser you'll outrange/outmaneuver him anyway. This means that WD'ing back OOS is okay as well. Up-B is super fast too(as fast as Falco's shine OOS anyway) so if Falco dashes in at all then it'll beat the dash in grab(not sure about the aerials though.....I'd have to check).


I want to fight more Falco with Marth I have so many things I want to test. =(
For that reason, scrutinize whatever I say because a lot of it is untested atm.

 

[knightpraetor]

"My main issues atm Marth VS Falco is dealing with Falco's laser -> shine or grab where he lasers into you and can start shield pressure immediately or just grab you. I feel like in the situation where you get caught it's hard to get out of. I repeatedly get shined trying to roll or wavedash oos after the laser.

It's just such a difficult position to be in as Marth if you don't PS the laser. You can't really pre-emptively roll as if you roll back the laser will still hit you and if you roll behind they can simply react with dash attack/bair when the shl ends.

Staying in shield just leads to a 50/50 mixup where they will either grab you or you may be able to do something out of shield pressure."

nice, someone actually posting on something useful for once.

Yeah, this same issue bothered me two nights ago and i went on a niko rant to one of my friends...(a niko rant being defined as one in which you bash all of marth's bad points and rant about how bad he is a character).....and basically said that you have to powershield or die to beat high level falcos....but you can also preempt the falco from reaching those spacings where he can laser and then shine on shield or have options like that..but yeah i agree..

out of all of falco's pressure options on marth, by far the strongest one is if he can get in close after landing the laser close to point blank..but that is also the hardest one to land if the marth is using aerials..if the marth is dashdancing honestly i think it's too easy for pros to achieve this spacing. your only true solution is to just powershield more.

also on a high note those kinds of lasers if powershielded = auto **** the falco cause your position ends up too good..i wish i were leffen and could 95% powershield. I feel like when i've been playing the matchup for a few days straight i go about 80%..but definitely without warming up for an hour or two powershielding i don't think i can achieve those rates..however, leffen's dash back powershield is still guaranteed

 

[knightpraetor]

I think I'm quitting....mahone doesn't even seem to like this game anymore, much less want to go to tourneys..it's boring going to tourneys by yourself and honestly without tourney motivation I question why i play so much...it's more fun honestly just playing a larger variety of games...bye marth boards

 

[Niko45]

I have the best rants honestly

 

[.Chipmunk.]

I have the best rants honestly

Only cause I don't rant on smashboards. I rant in real life. ;P

 

[Dark Hart]

Mahone like always wants to come to NC tourneys,

Tell him to move down here

 

[Dr Peepee]

We need MORE shield breaker combos(and not just Bair finishers like I said before). Did anyone else see what Bob$ was doing in his set vs S2J? S2J might not be phenomenal vs Marth, but that doesn't mean Bob$ still didn't demonstrate great combo uses of SB.

He used upthrow to SB around 90% on the top platform of FoD on forward DI and it connected/possibly stole Falcon's jump I forget. I think it also sent him offstage.

There were other great uses but I don't remember atm. Can't wait to re-watch that set.

 

[Tee ay eye]

btw i was thinking about the "falco's ftilt on marth's shield" thing yesterday and forgot to mention

does nair out of shield work?

 

[Tee ay eye]

so, it's not really a secret that i have been in somewhat of a slump since the last tournament. i got kinda hype after i figured out i needed to just play the character more, but then my drive was killed again by various stuff happening in my life outside of smash, and i was SUPER DUPER out of it. i was thinking of not even going to the tournament in 2 weeks (which i'm a co-host for) or going and not entering. today, i was seriously considering quitting marth for fox just because the lack of motivation made me want to cop out to an easier character (fast and precise inputs are kinda cake for me. i think i'm more technical/have a higher ceiling for tech skill than almost every fox player right now with a handful of obvious exceptions. then i watched the santa barbara stream and it sorta put me back in my normal smash groove, hyped to play smash and hyped to play marth.... and then i remembered the FC ruleset and then my hype died again.

tl;dr: i went in circles and ended back up to square 1

 

[Dr Peepee]

btw i was thinking about the "falco's ftilt on marth's shield" thing yesterday and forgot to mention

does nair out of shield work?

I wouldn't think so, too slow for the strong hit and CC-able for the first hit if you do manage to connect with that. This is assuming you're hitting Falco in Ftilt lag though(when he's more likely to be CC'ing then just lasering or DD'ing I guess).

so, it's not really a secret that i have been in somewhat of a slump since the last tournament. i got kinda hype after i figured out i needed to just play the character more, but then my drive was killed again by various stuff happening in my life outside of smash, and i was SUPER DUPER out of it. i was thinking of not even going to the tournament in 2 weeks (which i'm a co-host for) or going and not entering. today, i was seriously considering quitting marth for fox just because the lack of motivation made me want to cop out to an easier character (fast and precise inputs are kinda cake for me. i think i'm more technical/have a higher ceiling for tech skill than almost every fox player right now with a handful of obvious exceptions. then i watched the santa barbara stream and it sorta put me back in my normal smash groove, hyped to play smash and hyped to play marth.... and then i remembered the FC ruleset and then my hype died again.

tl;dr: i went in circles and ended back up to square 1

Train both and use pocket Fox on CPs, imo.

Although I think MOST "bad" Marth stages will get cleaned up by your 3 bans(in a given matchup)?

 

[KirbyKaze]

btw i was thinking about the "falco's ftilt on marth's shield" thing yesterday and forgot to mention

does nair out of shield work?

Marth's nair never works.



JK. But no, the range is way too small. Plus the rising... I mean, barring shield DI I think we may have to accept that Falco can f-tilt Marth's shield with the utmost perfect spacing ever and be at +2 or something.

Falco's kind of good.

I think Marth's shield sucks in general and he has mediocre options out of it. But I guess you have to use it a lot (or fairly regularly) vs Falco Lombardi... he's Falco Lombardi. Lame. I generally find it easier to maneuver around Falco's shield pressure, mostly because if he cancels shine with WD he can't always run after me (he's slow) and has to shoot lasers and such. Fox can chase you 'cuz he's so fast.

I think Falco is generally the breadwinner in shield pressure though. The higher advantage on shine-grab (and the fact that his grabs actually combo now [take that, 2007!]), the anti-CC dair and the shine that launches (so following / positional advantage can be gleaned even if you flub your next action if you hit a stray shine) is a really cruel mix. Fox is better at chasing rolls and stuff though.

Kind of sad that Marth's entire viability vs Falco right now is that he has enormous reach on PS > WD / grab, and can randomly knock Falco over (if you outsmart him at some point) and then death grab him. Everything else sucks. Falco's positioning game is too good.

Death grabs are kind of good too though.




I don't think super fraudulent Falco works very well. Not as well as super fraudulent Fox, anyway (which really only works on CP stages anyway and high top platforms vs bad characters). Or Puff for that matter (Puff OP at mid level). Falco's low speed ruins him and he's really fragile vs most of the top characters. He doesn't do enough damage using that kind of strat (if he commits to it - obviously defensive positioning and max ranging are good things but I don't think they're worth focusing gameplay around to the point where you win by poking [at least for Falco - it does wonders for Puff]).

Falco wins vs good characters mainly by shooting them so they're limited in terms of when they can act and by capitalizing on this with a set combo of 40%+ (and that's if you're bad at combos / lazy). He essentially outpaces you because he can. I don't think trying to play him as a defensive poking character will do much vs Fox, Sheik, Puff, a more traditional Falco, etc. Eventually these characters hit the punish they need because the poking Falco's not... killing them. So they get too many chances to fish for their good punishes.

That said, I think Falco's f-tilt is amazing because it's easy to fish for an edgeguard (hitting low range opponents like Peach when they're coming down with f-tilt is kind of cute, esp. if they lack a jump) and certain kinds of tech chase traps with it. And it's fairly safe. You can also pressure bad characters with it if you're lazy or fear a unique shield game (relevant vs Bowser I guess).

 

[Dr Peepee]

Super defensive Falco could just pull someone in on his terms through proper laser/movement manipulation and get that easier Dair/Nair into combo instead of just poking with that pull he can exert onto someone. Unless you figured that was obvious and just felt poking was overrated in general with Falco?

I wish I got to play more Falcos with Marth RHGANLKDGMFGLGHDS

My angst


Oh yeah and Marth's Nair is good vs Falco's Nair/Dair so there's that.

 

[KirbyKaze]

I think if you're going to be mad about Falco's poking, you should be mad about the moves that combo you to death. Not the ones that do 9-15% and generally reset to neutral (or positional advantage). When Falco is shield pressuring someone with any semblance of safety, I view that as the poking part of his character because he can poke in your face, violently, and with a high degree of safety (relative to other characters). Since he can convert his pressure into combos... I've figured this is why people tend to like this style. You eliminate options by doing... things... and are generally at advantage (barring dumb characters). You can convert this for big damage. Minus some annoying gaps and shield DI, I see no problem with this...

I'm also not convinced he outcamps Sheik and some other characters by enough for this to be a real problem (the luring thing). I may be biased here, though, because Sheik is generally good against this sort of thing (except when Fox on a CP stage does it).

The way I'm viewing it is that Falco can't follow up pressure from those moves (when used in their typical defensive fashion). So you're mostly hitting with stray, non-comboing moves. I just don't feel this style exerts enough of a threat. Falco can die in 1-4 hits really easily so I feel he needs to make stuff happen.

I understand the idea that you can just pull people in further, but I'd think that since lasers do so little damage, the opponent would essentially wind up playing a similar game that people do vs laser campy Fox where you just get into a decent spacing and... wait. Look for low risk plays where you can get massive punishment (not hard vs spacies). Also, Falco is slow moving, so he can't retreat laser vs an opponent with proper defensive spacing and then switch to attack mode seamlessly (he has to initiate with a more offensive laser... which gives the opponent a reasonable window to respond to the switch). I guess you could argue that Falco gets a bunch of mini advantages by not taking the bait, but I feel, again, this just isn't enough. He's too frail.

Maybe on CP stages and/or DL64 this can work? Otherwise I just think he's too slow and forfeiting too much control.

I already addressed that I think using this as a mixup is a good idea. I just don't think a whole style can be based around it with the same success as normal Falco (for the moment, anyway - if further developments arise I reserve the right to change my position).



Marth's nair is generally good vs other nairs. My scrubby, terrible conception of Marth feels that beating other nairs with Marth's nair and converting them into tech chases or grabs is the only real point to the move (in neutral). I'm sure your Marth is more sophisticated and is actually good though (my non-Sheik chars suck [except maybe my Fox, which is mediocre]) so if you have more to add then I'm all ears.

 

[Dr Peepee]

Well I'd only offer that it may depend on the moves he pokes with and the way he pokes with them. Doing weird drifts into aeirals(potential combo-starters) and other such things.

I also agree with him having difficulties out-camping Sheik(I do have a little experience testing this theory out and it wouldn't be easy...but the Sheik was camping me back so I'm not sure if that's all that helpful come to think of it lol).

This isn't really a Falco discussion thread but I figured I'd say that much.



Oh Marth's Nair, that move is tight. Phenomenal tech chase move in many tech chase situations, great combo move at lower percents, sick move to use on shields(spaced AND up close), and good at doing that lame M2K thing vs Fox which makes it really hard for that character to approach in general(not just with Nair) lol.

 

[KirbyKaze]

Fair enough. Smash is notorious for little things changing how strategies function. Maybe if you're at IMPULSE we could talk about it further over c-stick enabled training mode? It's easier to make strategies with a cube, IMO.

Regarding Sheik camping vs Falco camping... I know it was eons ago, but one of the things I'm happy with vs you at ROM3 (because I feel it was a good decision) was to just needle at you when you were pressuring me at the edge. You were waiting for me to approach badly (from a safe distance from conventional Sheik approaches) so... yeah, needles. Sheik Falco has both characters switching off and on defense anyway just because of what goes on in the MU (except Mango's Falco... that guy takes a nair OOS and keeps on going, gah -_-).

But then you took me on a magic carpet ride and I forgot to keep my eyes open because I'm a scrub / woman.

Retreat nair with Marth is funny. I'm not sure how it works or if it works at all but it's the original nairplane circa Pound 2. Too good.

 

[Dr Peepee]

Fair enough. Smash is notorious for little things changing how strategies function. Maybe if you're at IMPULSE we could talk about it further over c-stick enabled training mode? It's easier to make strategies with a cube, IMO.

I know it was eons ago, but one of the things I'm happy with vs you at ROM3 (because I feel it was a good decision) was to just needle at you when you were pressuring me at the edge. You were waiting for me to approach badly (from a safe distance from conventional Sheik approaches) so... yeah, needles. Sheik Falco has both characters switching off and on defense anyway just because of what goes on in the MU (except Mango's Falco... that guy takes a nair OOS and keeps on going, gah -_-).

But then you took me on a magic carpet ride and I forgot to keep my eyes open because I'm a scrub / woman.

Retreat nair with Marth is funny. I'm not sure how it works or if it works at all but it's the original nairplane circa Pound 2. Too good.

What an interesting idea, developing a strategy with someone over c-sticked enabled training mode. If I didn't know any better......

But yeah that does sound like a great point and I'd love to make it up to Impulse to do so. =)



I...hm yeah that is a good idea about needling there lol. I'd hate to call that wrong or somehow have the needles powershield back at you(that can happen if you just throw a couple right?), but generally it seems really good. I wish I knew whether Captain Jack did that or not when I played him at Apex in friendlies because that guy had solid vs Falco fundamentals even if he didn't know lots of modern tricks. I feel like he needled some by the edge too but I'm not totally sure. That point doesn't serve anything except make me feel better about the idea as a really good strategy(which I'd be pretty sure it was anyway) LOL.


Mango is insane. No seriously


That last hit of Marth's Nair coming out at that angle is really nice... but it's the thinness of the angle that's the problem and not the range I feel. I don't know if that even makes sense but it's how I sort of feel when I use the move.

Also I remembered another thing I use Nair for: when comboing, I start a Nair mad early when they're at my back and Bair would hit but not tipper and when the opponent DJs out of stun they get hit by the high-reaching second part of Nair. They'd be more likely to want to jump because they see the move coming out(than if you tried to delay a Bair or whatever) and instinctively try to get away. I don't do it often and half the time by accident, but whenever I do it the DJ always stolen and the opponent offstage so that's all I care about lol.

 

[KirbyKaze]

I'm noticing a trend towards, "When the opponent is in bad position (either being comboed or knocked over, although it's basically the same thing with this guy) nair can be used for..." and then there's a really sick combo trick that will probably win random games.

But I was asking about its merit in combat. 'cuz, like, anything can be used as a combo move as long as the lag-KB ratio isn't ********.

But I do love your tidbits. Your Marth is so cool. I hope I can play it and relearn the MU because I.B might be switching over to Falco (ironically, because of you lol).

The thing about 'thinness' makes sense. Marth's moves are generally sweeping arcs so having a move that leaves so much of him exposed at once is kind of :/

If Falco PSes the needles, I don't think it's really a big deal for Sheik because neither character has effectively changed their position. Falco is still spaced for Sheik's approaches, Sheik is still... being Sheik. At the edge. Come at me bro?

Of course, if the Falco realized he was gonna PS the needles and WDed OOS to prepare to get under her that would work but that would be too godlike for mere mortals IMO. And not something to be relied upon (needles are fickle).



edit: It's not a date. Unless you want it to be

 

[Blistering Speed]

PeePee, just start partially playing as Marth in bracket if you want progression. No amount of words'll bring players out of a slump with this character, seeing someone perform will. This character's metagame has been at a standstill for years upon years, you're going to need to do something dramatic to break the trend.

 

[KirbyKaze]

PP, I suggest you continue to develop Falco and go deep with him

Unless you really want to beat Armada and don't care how you do it lol

It's clear to me now that you're incredibly honorable :x

It probably works to your benefit in the long run though

No money in smash

 

[Strong Badam]

We need MORE shield breaker combos(and not just Bair finishers like I said before). Did anyone else see what Bob$ was doing in his set vs S2J? S2J might not be phenomenal vs Marth, but that doesn't mean Bob$ still didn't demonstrate great combo uses of SB.

He used upthrow to SB around 90% on the top platform of FoD on forward DI and it connected/possibly stole Falcon's jump I forget. I think it also sent him offstage.

There were other great uses but I don't remember atm. Can't wait to re-watch that set.

So confused as to how people are STILL using me, and on the west coast!

 

[KirbyKaze]

You're now a combo finisher. Deal with it.

 

[Dr Peepee]

I'm noticing a trend towards, "When the opponent is in bad position (either being comboed or knocked over, although it's basically the same thing with this guy) nair can be used for..." and then there's a really sick combo trick that will probably win random games.

But I was asking about its merit in combat. 'cuz, like, anything can be used as a combo move as long as the lag-KB ratio isn't ********.

But I do love your tidbits. Your Marth is so cool. I hope I can play it and relearn the MU because I.B might be switching over to Falco (ironically, because of you lol).

The thing about 'thinness' makes sense. Marth's moves are generally sweeping arcs so having a move that leaves so much of him exposed at once is kind of :/

If Falco PSes the needles, I don't think it's really a big deal for Sheik because neither character has effectively changed their position. Falco is still spaced for Sheik's approaches, Sheik is still... being Sheik. At the edge. Come at me bro?

Of course, if the Falco realized he was gonna PS the needles and WDed OOS to prepare to get under her that would work but that would be too godlike for mere mortals IMO. And not something to be relied upon (needles are fickle).



edit: It's not a date. Unless you want it to be

That's a pretty good point about Nair in bad positions. Approaching with the move is suicide(unless the opponent is at least semi-cornered I've found, but maybe this also constitutes as a bad position and falls into your observation as well haha). Doing it in place seems pretty cool out of a DD and Taj uses it against Falco so it has its uses there. Slightly retreating Nair is best at neutral to force lots of silly approaches but it also is great in beating out a LOT of attacks as a defensive move surprisingly. So, maybe it's a great punishing tool that has it's main use at neutral as a really funky zoning/counterattacking tool?


Lol it's cool to inspire people, makes me feel all important and whatnot haha. Maybe I will inspire both of his characters haha. =p Anyway we should definitely play because I absolutely LOVE picking Marth every chance I get haha. He's so FUN no matter what matchup I'm playing(even sheiky sheik obv)


"Thinness" certainly does explain why it can't approach well. Heck, Fair is somewhat difficult to approach with and it's HUGE lol(yeah and the arc thing isn't helping).


Oh I thought you meant Sheik was standing still and needling and not getting on a platform/jumping and needling. Yeah in that case PS'ing would be ridiculous and if you could call that then you might as well hit Sheik if you could set it up lol.

When you say needles are fickle, do you mean something related to their PS'ing properties is fickle, or is there another characteristic I'm very unaware of that makes needles different?


lmao I can't respond to that last comment publicly it's too funny

 

[KirbyKaze]

If you come to IMPULSE, bring Trevor :x

edit: and/or L0zr

Yeah, the example I was thinking of was FJ needles. I don't like standing needles from that spacing. It's easy to shield > WD punish from a good chunk of distance away. They also don't really exert enough pressure to make a confident Falco back off. I mean, really, it's just 3% and the ability to pressure or whatever is ruined by the cooldown of the move...

When I say they're fickle, I just mean they're harder to see than most commonly PSed projectiles because they're tiny pins. Tighter window, etc. Falco, though his gun is gay as hell, is nice enough to give you this big, red, highly visible beam to work with.

 

[Dr Peepee]

PeePee, just start partially playing as Marth in bracket if you want progression. No amount of words'll bring players out of a slump with this character, seeing someone perform will. This character's metagame has been at a standstill for years upon years, you're going to need to do something dramatic to break the trend.

I completely agree with that statement. I've had some really rough issues getting myself sorted out in a smash sense for a while now, but I think they're all fixed now mostly. If I can ensure that I've ironed them out then I have 0 qualms in benefitting the smash/Marth community in the way you described. =)

PP, I suggest you continue to develop Falco and go deep with him

Unless you really want to beat Armada and don't care how you do it lol

It's clear to me now that you're incredibly honorable :x

It probably works to your benefit in the long run though

No money in smash

I'm on the fence about some things

no point in commenting on anything beyond that lol

ty though =)



ps Falco's the man and I'm never dropping much focus if any on him. How much focus Marth gets is the issue.

 

[KirbyKaze]

Hey, if you want to death combo with throw instead of down-B and dair and like the greater durability Marth has to offer vs annoying things like Peach and such, then by all means...

edit: It's not like I think using Marth more is an objectively bad decision or anything - I told you to use him at APEX 'cuz he's easier to play sick 'cuz he's less fragile (vs the characters you were gonna go up against). I just genuinely admire how much work you put into Falco. I figure you can do it either way. Only real factors are stuff like convenience vs how good you think you'll feel about it and such.

That's a pretty good point about Nair in bad positions. Approaching with the move is suicide(unless the opponent is at least semi-cornered I've found, but maybe this also constitutes as a bad position and falls into your observation as well haha). Doing it in place seems pretty cool out of a DD and Taj uses it against Falco so it has its uses there. Slightly retreating Nair is best at neutral to force lots of silly approaches but it also is great in beating out a LOT of attacks as a defensive move surprisingly. So, maybe it's a great punishing tool that has it's main use at neutral as a really funky zoning/counterattacking tool?

I just figure Marth's nair cannibalizes other nairs but I mean, this is probably a better explanation so I'm gonna shamelessly steal. Because why not.

 

[Dr Peepee]

If you come to IMPULSE, bring Trevor :x

edit: and/or L0zr

Yeah, the example I was thinking of was FJ needles. I don't like standing needles from that spacing. It's easy to shield > WD punish from a good chunk of distance away. They also don't really exert enough pressure to make a confident Falco back off. I mean, really, it's just 3% and the ability to pressure or whatever is ruined by the cooldown of the move...

When I say they're fickle, I just mean they're harder to see than most commonly PSed projectiles because they're tiny pins. Tighter window, etc. Falco, though his gun is gay as hell, is nice enough to give you this big, red, highly visible beam to work with.

LMAO I should've known you had a hidden agenda you monster!

FJ'ing needles is pretty tight with Sheik and covers great area. The fact that the needles come out quickly and cover the area in front of and below Sheik and are FAST most importantly is too good. FJ'ing in general is somewhat risky with Sheik(correct me if I'm wrong), but since I probably wasn't making a very serious effort to approach then that was a very safe/solid decision.

I wonder if it is even possible to consistently PS Sheik's aerial needles because of how fast/small they are. Do you know anyone that can do that already?

Hey, if you want to death combo with throw instead of down-B and dair and like the greater durability Marth has to offer vs annoying things like Peach and such, then by all means...

edit: It's not like I think using Marth more is an objectively bad decision or anything - I told you to use him at APEX 'cuz he's easier to play sick 'cuz he's less fragile (vs the characters you were gonna go up against). I just genuinely admire how much work you put into Falco. I figure you can do it either way. Only real factors are stuff like convenience vs how good you think you'll feel about it and such.


I just figure Marth's nair cannibalizes other nairs but I mean, this is probably a better explanation so I'm gonna shamelessly steal. Because why not.

I'm NEVER focusing more on Marth than Falco. I considered it for a very short time but I realized that everything I put into Falco would be wasted then and that's pointless. A ways down the road, I could possibly begin substituting Marth for Falco in some matchups, but Falco would be doing the majority of my tournament, and will probably be doing so until I quit this game lol.

In general, having a CP is tight but difficult to effectively maintain in Melee. I'm partially doing this to see what options open up for me(the option can always be there and I just don't decide to use it, but having it is really nice) as well as my enjoyment of Marth and my inspiration that came from the character. I suppose there's something there about wanting to help out the Melee community by giving greater top tier representation too.


Killing off of upthrow IS really satisfying though. =p


Also thank you =)

 

[Tee ay eye]

Train both and use pocket Fox on CPs, imo.

I'm against the idea of having a pocket Fox because he's too good to put effort into JUST to use him as a pocket character. If I were going to put any more dedicated work into Fox at all, it'd be to use him as a main.

 

[Dr Peepee]

Well I don't particularly agree with that line of reasoning, but if that's what you think then you have two options: practice a ton with Marth on the CPs and become amazing at them so you'll likely know the stage better than the opponent+reduce disadvantages the stage delivers to you OR play a load of Fox in preparation for your coming-out as a Fox main tourney. The latter doesn't particularly seem likely for someone who has developed a lot with another character, but I suppose you might be able to make something work if you put in tons of work since you used to main Fox.

You and your opponent each get 3 bans and can also agree to the MBR ruleset so that makes things a lot easier than they used to be.

 

[Beat!]

Having a decent pocket Fox is super handy.

 

[KirbyKaze]

LMAO I should've known you had a hidden agenda you monster!

Oh, don't act all offended. Clearly I was up to something...

 

[knightpraetor]

"Train both and use pocket Fox on CPs, imo.
I'm against the idea of having a pocket Fox because he's too good to put effort into JUST to use him as a pocket character. If I were going to put any more dedicated work into Fox at all, it'd be to use him as a main."

I agree with this statement; i would personally probably not go to a tourney with that kind of ruleset, but despite that, if i were going to go, i would just drop marth for a couple months and train up my fox and jiggs.

In that kind of ruleset those characters with strong counterpicks are going to do a lot better. Moreover, I think that playing around with secondaries in tourney decreases your consistency with your main. I think it's not too bad under normal rulesets, but under the FC ruleset you are going to be facing strong counterpicks every round probably. At the very least dreamland or the worst out of the 5 "neutrals".
Marth adds nothing in terms of counterpicks or matchups to make it worth practicing him when you could just practice fox the whole time or pick up a floaty for your secondary so that everyone must play their matches vs you on a gay stage.

I do think that playing multiple characters can help you under the FC ruleset if you play spacy/floaty.

I'm probably going to get attacked for saying that the FC ruleset is garbage, but I have a long history of beating players twice as good as me when i was garbage at this game by taking them to green greens and corneria because they couldn't ban both. I remember several times beating players who would consistently 4 stock me under normal conditions. Stage matters.

The part I dislike most about all their arguing is that they try to pretend like this new ruleset doesn't invalidate particular characters. At least in starcraft one when they added an imbalanced map the commentators just spent their time talking about how the win rate for terran was 90% and that the zerg would probably have to cheese or do something gimmicky. But here's for hoping PP proves me wrong. But the reality is that all the marth mains are going to get completely wrecked at FC and PP will probably use marth for less than 1/3 of his matches and only when it's not crucial or deciding.

on another note, PP, honest question: would your falco or your marth do better vs armada. What do you think?

 

[Dr Peepee]

"Train both and use pocket Fox on CPs, imo.
I'm against the idea of having a pocket Fox because he's too good to put effort into JUST to use him as a pocket character. If I were going to put any more dedicated work into Fox at all, it'd be to use him as a main."

I agree with this statement; i would personally probably not go to a tourney with that kind of ruleset, but despite that, if i were going to go, i would just drop marth for a couple months and train up my fox and jiggs.

In that kind of ruleset those characters with strong counterpicks are going to do a lot better. Moreover, I think that playing around with secondaries in tourney decreases your consistency with your main. I think it's not too bad under normal rulesets, but under the FC ruleset you are going to be facing strong counterpicks every round probably. At the very least dreamland or the worst out of the 5 "neutrals".
Marth adds nothing in terms of counterpicks or matchups to make it worth practicing him when you could just practice fox the whole time or pick up a floaty for your secondary so that everyone must play their matches vs you on a gay stage.

I do think that playing multiple characters can help you under the FC ruleset if you play spacy/floaty.

I'm probably going to get attacked for saying that the FC ruleset is garbage, but I have a long history of beating players twice as good as me when i was garbage at this game by taking them to green greens and corneria because they couldn't ban both. I remember several times beating players who would consistently 4 stock me under normal conditions. Stage matters.

The part I dislike most about all their arguing is that they try to pretend like this new ruleset doesn't invalidate particular characters. At least in starcraft one when they added an imbalanced map the commentators just spent their time talking about how the win rate for terran was 90% and that the zerg would probably have to cheese or do something gimmicky. But here's for hoping PP proves me wrong. But the reality is that all the marth mains are going to get completely wrecked at FC and PP will probably use marth for less than 1/3 of his matches and only when it's not crucial or deciding.

on another note, PP, honest question: would your falco or your marth do better vs armada. What do you think?

Ken had a pocket Fox, M2K played Fox first, other great players that may not have played a floaty or spacie still had to man up about ruleset before. Why the ruckus over the decision now, aside from it being less comfortable than what you're used to?

With 3 bans and the option to agree to MBR ruleset, you aren't really THAT limited in terms of stages. Marth honestly has it pretty amazing in terms of current stages, so adding a couple more that he MIGHT have to play on is not a horrific thing.

I can't even think of a matchup where I'd even be concerned enough to ban more than 3 stages(assuming I become good at MK2, if not then 3) using just Marth.


To follow with traditional arguments against your claim about beating people way better than you on CPs, they must have been way worse at the stage than you, which is a skill selected for with a larger stage list. It's how you interpret the selection of that skill that defines where you stand on the argument involving stage selection size.


Marth mains will do badly if they get upset and make the stagelist work against them. I'd be fine with working through a plan for Marth mains with and without secondaries and discussing it here if it'd make everyone feel more comfortable with their character and not panic because someone said it was cool to turn a couple stages back on.


My Falco would do better vs Armada, but that question feels unfair to me.

 

[Shadocat]

I think I'm quitting....mahone doesn't even seem to like this game anymore, much less want to go to tourneys..it's boring going to tourneys by yourself and honestly without tourney motivation I question why i play so much...it's more fun honestly just playing a larger variety of games...bye marth boards

Really??? i was hoping you could teach me this game over the summer ........ but i respect your decision though....

 

[Niko45]

3 bans? More stages? What have I missed?

 

[KirbyKaze]

They're discussing the FC ruleset.

 

[Dr Peepee]

Well don't worry about it atm....apparently Kish is thinking of redoing the ruleset anyway. We should discuss what to do seriously then.

Edit: good work kk post sync bros

 

[knightpraetor]

I guess in one way at least you are right..marth mains can adapt by choosing to adopt a secondary...it's just annoying because if your opponent has a secondary (floaty spacie being the best combination now) then, you are now forced to adopt a secondary to survive. I guess in terms of balance i can adjust, and the rule set is their prerogative of course and I don't fault them for it, but if they choose to adopt a rule set that many people disagree with then they have to accept that some of the people who would normally show up will not. I agree with leffen's statements in the thread; i would not risk flying all the way over to play in that ruleset if I were a marth, falcon, or even really sheik main..though sheik suffers less than the other two i would think.

Also, for those people that do not have good secondaries already, they had better hurry up and learn. Getting a secondary to adequate levels given the many matchups in this game is no simple task.

I guess in that sense, I'm not that annoyed at the ruleset, I just prefer rule sets that do not force multiple character usage. Honestly I have less reason to complain than most, my fox is already at the same level roughly as my marth; i just don't like playing him.

also i think what pissed me off the most is that people in the FC thread basically said you're a ****ing moron if you don't go to FC because you dno't like the ruleset. I mean what the hell? if you disagree with something, should you support it wholeheartedly???

 

[Tee ay eye]

i play a high tier character because i don't want to be forced to switch off due to stupid ****. i think marth can handle every matchup in the game on the six neutrals (pokemon stadium is a neutral at heart), and that's why i play him.

zelda, on the other hand, is NOT able to adequately handle a bunch the matchups in the game regardless of stage, so that's why i would never touch her with a 20 foot pole.

that being said, i would not like these stages even if i DID play a character that benefited from them like fox or peach. i'm playing a fighting game because i love micro-intensive player-vs-player action. i'm comfortable with the six neutrals because they follow a standard format and have an "acceptable" (mostly subjective) amount of variation. if i wanted the stage to be an even bigger factor in my matches, i'd just quit smash and play league of legends or starcraft or something.

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

Only bad timing is my nemesis. A stupid philosophy to try to live by.