Important Carefully Ask PPMD about the Tiara Guy

[Niko45]

I'm not really depressed about Marth or anything at this point I'm well aware of how bad he is but I'm too lazy to actually start playing sheik (which from a logical, play-to-win stand point pretty much every marth should do...completely superior/unchanged matchups across the board besides Fox and possibly Falco).

Realistically though even if one were to make that complete shift to playing Sheik the reality of that situation is that Sheik isn't that good either (when it comes to the most critical matchups).

It's basically a complete novelty character choice to solo Marth at this point but that's still pretty fun and I'm ok with it.

 

[Dr Peepee]

Honestly, the only reason I'd pick up a secondary as Marth would be for Sheik and maybe Falcon. I don't know the Falcon matchup well though but I do know the Sheik one fairly decently.

I feel like problems don't get solved when CP'ing characters(like not knowing exactly where some holes are or how your style is getting countered, even if it is easier to counter with a bad matchup for Marth). I'd only want to pick up like Fox as a secondary if I had tried many many times to win and my skill level was about peaked out so I couldn't just get better than the other guy while we both know the matchup.

Personally, I think Marth-only is a tournament-viable way to play, but if you wanted to secondary Fox for stage bleh or matchup bleh then I suppose that wouldn't be a bad idea either.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Any reasonable human being would just solo main fox

 

[.Chipmunk.]

Marth is amazing. You guys have no idea how good this character truly is. GTFO.

 

[KirbyKaze]

Cactuar's twirly thing is good.

 

[knightpraetor]

marth falcon is not that bad..now marth sheik....the main problem is i have difficulty judging whether i can beat sheik's bair...if you're under it enough you can uptilt/do whatevrer you want and win...if you are farther away (more horizontal) in my opinion you can only ftilt safely in a lot of situations.

but the biggest problem is when you are going for a fair and they have the bair option....if they get horizontal enough, i guess you can just pressure for a grab or dash attack as they land...but then they just land on the platform knowing you won't riskgetting baired (the bair always combos...accept it..marth losing control in this matchup hurts marth a lot more than sheik)....

i realized i was being stupid and i can probably bait out the bair by empty hopping forwards into ground moves...however, what do you do when the sheik realizes that you aren't going to risk contesting the bair....then they will be ready for your ground move...and it's still not worth going up there with your fair..well, i guess they will land/waveland shield a platform, so you can pressure from there at least...but that feels so weak..

but still, pressure is better than nothing..and for now i just need to work on learning to punish sheik's bair..because the sheiks at every skill level that i have played at spam that (cept for that set against kirby kaze...he just wrecked me..and considering how much he's improved based on his recent vids would wreck me even harder now..despite my skill level almost doubling in the last four months)

 

[Cactuar]

Cactuar's twirly thing is good.

Hey man.... hidden techniques...


I love how vague that sounds though. Twirly Thing. That should probably be the actual name for the technique.

 

[Dr Peepee]

@KP: I've never had a problem with Sheik's Bair. I guess I just stay close enough to her so she can't safely use it and if she retreats then yeah like you said pressure is cool. Marth having stage is amazing so even if you don't directly get a hit from Sheik threatening with Bair it still puts you in a better position, which could make the hit you do eventually get be more worthwhile(since in this case Sheik may not necessarily have a platform to break out of the combo/juggle onto).

I wanna know the twirly thing.

 

[Cactuar]

Then come train with me.

Spoiler

A better response would have probably been to post a link to meatspin, but that is ban-worthy.

 

[knightpraetor]

i don't mean problems with her using bair from the ground..i meant mainly that if she DIs your combos she gets out for free too often because marth has to be wary of the bair.

 

[Dr Peepee]

Then come train with me.

Spoiler

A better response would have probably been to post a link to meatspin, but that is ban-worthy.

LOL

well I want to obviously. you're just really far away and all =(

bleh this is why I need to catch you on aim XD

i don't mean problems with her using bair from the ground..i meant mainly that if she DIs your combos she gets out for free too often because marth has to be wary of the bair.

oh, well I don't think I have this problem much for some reason. maybe it's because I just try to keep Sheik pretty high above me or close to me and above me when I combo her(aka put her in bad situations and hit her again and again) but I don't think I get Bair'd out of the combo often.

 

[KirbyKaze]

Hey man.... hidden techniques...


I love how vague that sounds though. Twirly Thing. That should probably be the actual name for the technique.

You mean it isn't?!?!

 

[Deleted member]

@cactuar

Please teach me on how to improve

 

[KirbyKaze]

"Humans are our greatest resource," vowed KirbyKaze as he readied the next toddler for the engine.

 

[.Chipmunk.]

i don't mean problems with her using bair from the ground..i meant mainly that if she DIs your combos she gets out for free too often because marth has to be wary of the bair.

Shiek's very much like ganon in that when you are comboing her, if you aren't sure what to do next, just hit her with a falling uair. Wait...isn't that like...Marth vs everyone? lol

 

[Cactuar]

My biggest training tool is actually playing slower than I usually do during push and pull phases. I do this so my opponent can more effectively see how I'm zoning, approaching, defending, etc. Once they get used to what I'm doing, I'll simply increase the speed. Their reactions to my play will pick up in response. Once they can contend with what I'm doing vs them, I'll drop the speed back down and switch strats. Rinse and repeat.

One of the issues in the game is that, at the speed most of the high/top level plays, so much can easily go unnoticed if you don't know what to look for.

Punishment, you should obviously try and go all out (at a speed you can be consistent at) until you have a good sense of what combo trees are available to your level of technical ability and then maintain those until you improve. Make that **** your bread and butter. Once you have more speed, you can start getting creative and make the next tier of connections your bread and butter. Rinse and repeat.

Technical errors are much more common if you try to play as fast as possible all of the time. Playing like that is like training for a marathon by sprinting a half mile every day. You want to run at a solid pace for 5 miles and throw in a stretch of sprinting here and there, not blow your load in the first 2 minutes.

In addition, if you go from 0-60 like that and your thought processes can't keep up with the speed yet, even if you don't make a technical error, you will make bad decisions because of a disconnect between current location of character and previous. People that play like that tend to watch their own character more than watching the opponent's. The consequence of doing so is that their reaction to the opponent's actions are greatly delayed.


And you guys all know what happens when you make a technical error or a bad decision: Armada downsmashes you once and death combos you out of it. Mango finds you shielding and goes in hard. Hbox rests you. M2K grabs you. Javi quintuple shines you offstage somehow. Etc.


Basically: Practice doesn't make perfect. Perfect practice makes perfect. Build up to what you want to do, do it consistently for a while, then move on to something else. Go back every once in a while to keep rust off and to ensure your responses are solid.

Edit: I used to get a lot of **** for being a sandbagger because I would do this. I didn't really understand the reasons behind it years ago, but... you know... with age comes wisdom dark side something something.

 

[Dr Peepee]

Does this mean you have made quite an improvement to your own personal punishment game, Cactuar?

 

[Cactuar]

You'll have to wait and see.


Edit: Or you could ask anyone around Philly/M2K. lolol

 

[TheCrimsonBlur]

So basically wavedash in place.

Got it.

 

[Sensei]

I want a hug cactus. Play me or maybe I'll visit Philly someday.

 

[Cactuar]

Sounds like a plan, man.

 

[KirbyKaze]

All you need to improve punishment with the following characters:

Sheik - up tilt, up air, and dair; regrab during combos when possible
Fox - up tilt, up air, and regrabs when some people would up smash (also use weak hits for di manipulation)
Falco - lolz
Falcon - grow a better combo tree
Marth - don't drop the ball

 

[FoxoF]

Hi guys, had a question, hope you guys can help.

With marth's fair, how do the different parts of the hitbox act?

When I fair with the edge, I find often they just go up, more than horizontally away, which can get a bit annoying trying to combo. Is it best to get them with sort of the middle bit of the sword?

I guess it must also depend on what percent they are etc, but I thought maybe some of you could shed some life on the specifics of how the fair hitbox works. I tried looking at the hitbox GIF thingy, but it didnt help in saying WHERE the player is sent after the fair

Oh and I tried looking for a thread/post about this, but couldnt find anything...so if Ive missed something, please direct me.

Thanks

 

[Divinokage]

All you need to improve punishment with the following characters:

Sheik - up tilt, up air, and dair; regrab during combos when possible
Fox - up tilt, up air, and regrabs when some people would up smash (also use weak hits for di manipulation)
Falco - lolz
Falcon - grow a better combo tree
Marth - don't drop the ball

I think you meant don't drop the soap for Marth.

 

[TheCrimsonBlur]

Hi guys, had a question, hope you guys can help.

With marth's fair, how do the different parts of the hitbox act?

When I fair with the edge, I find often they just go up, more than horizontally away, which can get a bit annoying trying to combo. Is it best to get them with sort of the middle bit of the sword?

I guess it must also depend on what percent they are etc, but I thought maybe some of you could shed some life on the specifics of how the fair hitbox works. I tried looking at the hitbox GIF thingy, but it didnt help in saying WHERE the player is sent after the fair

Oh and I tried looking for a thread/post about this, but couldnt find anything...so if Ive missed something, please direct me.

Thanks

Fair is a very, very (very) complex move. The main reason for this is that there are many different trajectories that it can send the opponent at. Here are the main ones:

Tips:
1. Top of the fair, right when the hitbox activates: Sends opponent straight up. The usual follow-up is a double-jump back uair.
2. 45 degrees above the horizontal, still near the top of the arc: Sends opponent up and away. Follow-ups (when full hopped) are usually dj fair, dj forward uair, and dj shieldbreaker. Note that this is the angle at which fair hits off a shffl because it hits the head of the opponent.
3. Exactly horizontal, where Marths arm is pointed straight out, at its max horizontal distance: this is what I call a "push" fair. Its the most common fair to kill off the side. Sends opponent straight away from Marth. Ken combo and up-B are the most common follow-ups.
4. 45 degrees below horizontal: The "spike" fair. Sends opponent down and to the side. Usually used for edgeguarding. On-stage respond with fastfall fair (only fastfall AFTER the hitbox connects; you dont want to do it before or else you will get a different part of the arc to connect). Off-stage usually a dj fair or up-B. If you hit this on a grounded opponent (ex: off a full-hop, coming down), expect to tech-chase.

Weak hits:
1. Top of the arc: sends opponent barely in front of you. Can usually fastfall no dj uair after, dj weak fair, dj nair (my favorite), or dj up-B. Can Ken combo off this even with away DI sometimes.
2. Bottom of the arc: sends opponent down barely. Leads to techchase on the ground at higher %s. very susceptable to CC. In the air a no dj fair or fastfall dj nair usually works. Awkward and unweildy part of the hitbox, try to avoid; many characters can just dj and hit you after it.
3. REVERSE FAIR AKA YOU ALREADY KNOW AKA YOU'RE ALREADY DEAD: gangsta move. Hits at the center of Marths body as he swings. Sends opponent behind you. Many followups on the ground and the air, but the only honorable one is dair.

Marth is awesome.

 

[Bones0]

I did a reverse fair to fast fall suicide dair yesterday with both of us at last stock. Marth2gud

 

[.Chipmunk.]

I once sweetspotted a falcon through his light shield and grabbed the ledge before he did. He was so stunned at not being on the ledge he suicided with a bad up b. ****

 

[crush]

definitely ****. congrats bro, u pressed up-b

 

[Metal Reeper]

Does this mean you have made quite an improvement to your own personal punishment game, Cactuar?

I am from philly and vouches for cactuar.
he is better something something gay playstyle.

 

[.Chipmunk.]

definitely ****. congrats bro, u pressed up-b

pressed up-b? Beating the marth killer is nothing to be sarcastic about. You up-b, grab the ledge before the light shielded edge hog, then come talk to me.

 

[DuckPimp]

pressed up-b? Beating the marth killer is nothing to be sarcastic about. You up-b, grab the ledge before the light shielded edge hog, then come talk to me.

he probably did it wrong. just saying

although if he didnt i want videos so i can study intently

 

[.Chipmunk.]

he probably did it wrong. just saying

although if he didnt i want videos so i can study intently

It's possible he did it wrong, and I have no videos of it unfortunately. The people I play with rarely light shield edgeguard me though so it isn't something I've been able to test thoroughly.

How would one do it wrong though?

 

[TheCrimsonBlur]

It's possible he did it wrong, and I have no videos of it unfortunately. The people I play with rarely light shield edgeguard me though so it isn't something I've been able to test thoroughly.

How would one do it wrong though?

He probably did not angle his shield properly.

It is called the Marth killer for a reason

 

[Bones0]

What probably happened is that he tilted his shield down too far causing him to fast fall past the ledge. If they do it properly, there's no way for you to grab the ledge before them. You have to up-B without hitting their shield and fall to the ledge that way.

 

[Tee ay eye]

im in love with the tip of marths fair cuz its a pretty good for keeping your opponent in the air IMO

 

[Dr Peepee]

hey, could everyone here check out the marth video critique thread and look at my marth vs armada's peach please? I'd really appreciate it <3

 

[huMps]

First off I'm obviously going to learn much more from this than you will from any of my advice, and I thank you lol

Maybe throw in some shield breakers once you've got her above 100% and she's not really afraid to get grabbed anymore. You did amazing forcing him into shield, but once there you gave him no reason to be scared or come out. Good stuff!

 

[Dr Peepee]

That's actually a pretty good idea, and I usually just try to shield poke in that instance instead of breaking it.

Thanks! =)

 

[S l o X]

just came here to say i was really impressed by tai and i just kind of followed him whenever he played a tourney match. (good **** vs col bol and impressive stuff vs tope)

 

[PolishSmash]

Anyone know where people around NYC go to local tourneys? I'm trying to improve and want to hit up some locals. Places where good Marth players go would be helpful since I want to get help with my Marth. Thanks